S4E9 - The Vibes (Empty Spaces)

0:00 Kayla: It's less a loose collective of writers and artists than it is a way to describe the shared themes and motifs resonating through them. It's angle of approach and the tint of the light and the sound of a doll crying in the other room just far enough away that you can't help her. It's a fallen angel smoking on the overpass and thinking about jumping off even though she knows it won't kill her. It's about trauma and what comes after. Hi, there.

0:49 Chris: Hello. Kayla: This is Kayla from culture. Just weird. Stop laughing at me because I don't know how to start a podcast. Chris: I don't think we're ever gonna learn. Kayla: No, no. We're just. We're jumping right in. I've decided we're going. I'm feeling. Chris: We're not feeling fourth season. If we're not, if we haven't learned by now, it's not gonna happen. Kayla: It's not gonna happen. Chris: I'm Chris. I'm a game designer and a data scientist. Kayla: I'm a tv writer. Probably some other things, too. But today we are here talking to you under the pretense of cult or just weird, the podcast, which is. Chris: That's what I'll actually. I feel like that's redundant with podcast pretense, and podcasts are sort of pachompanous. Synonymous. Excuse me? Synonymous. Kayla: Do you have any business? Chris: Oh, yes, we do have a business. We have a new patron.

1:31 Kayla: We do have a new patron. I put it in my notes, too. I'm not that you put it in your notes, but I put it in my notes, too. Chris: All right. Thank you. To name. I'm not looking at my notes right now. Kayla: Thank you to Patrick St. Ange. I hope that's what it was. Yes, I think I'm pronouncing that correctly from one hyphenated last name person to another. Thank you for joining our Patreon. I hope that you enjoyed. Chris: We really appreciate it. We appreciate all of our listeners, but we especially appreciate people who choose to support us on Patreon. Thank you very much. Kayla: If you want to support the show, it is patreon.com culturejustweird. We do bonus episodes, BTS content, polls, outtakes. There's a lot of fun stuff going on, but that doesn't take away from the content that we do on this main show. And I'm just. I'm so excited.

2:16 Chris: Kayla, what's going on? Because, like, for several weeks, you've been like, oh, I'm doing this one thing. And then the other day, you're like, oh, I'm switching topics. And then you haven't been able to stop talking about how excited you are. Kayla: I got out of bed at 02:00 in the morning and left, and you went, what's going on? And then I was just gone from you because I was down a rabbit hole for the next several hours and did not. Chris: Starting at two in the morning. Kayla: Yes. Chris: I mean, that's. I don't know if that's healthy for you. I don't know if that really fits into our self care season, but it does make me intrigued about the content. Kayla: I'm so happy. I'm just. I'm happy because this topic feels like something that's more akin to the line or tulpas or some of our, like, nice ones, nicer, cozier, less scary topics that we've been able to cover. And I'm just. I'm very glad to have found this community that we're gonna be talking about.

3:11 Chris: Thank goodness. And you're sure it doesn't have secret nazis? Kayla: No. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I don't. No, I'm not sure. Chris: Oh, you're not sure? Oh, God damn it, Kayla. Kayla: I'm not sure about that. Of any community. Chris: That's fair. Kayla: My analysis thus far would say, no, this is not a secret Nazi harboring community. Chris: Okay. So it's not, like, kind of the opposite. Tartaria is kind of neat, but maybe problematic. It's not in really in that category. Kayla: No, not at all. Not at all. Chris: Okay, well, I mean, in the year of our Lord 2022, that feels as pure as you can get. This is clean and pure. Kayla: Yes. So, Chris, as I mentioned, I was scrolling through Twitter one night, just going to bed. You shine the light of the phone into your eyes, and that soothes you to sleep.

3:59 Chris: Yeah. You get that bright white light in your eyes. Kayla: Right in your eyes. Chris: Just before bed. Yeah. Kayla: I came across a tweet from someone I follow, and I could not parse the tweet in the slightest. Chris: That's rare for you. Kayla: The tweet was from urirando, also known as frog Kosarik, and it read, quote, sorry to ruin your fun, but empty spaces is not OSha compliant and needs to be shut down. You can't just have PTSD fawners lie on the floor and wait for a sadist with poor boundaries to walk all over them. Classic, unsafe work environment. What if the sadist trips and falls? Can you try and explain to me what this means?

4:43 Chris: No. Kayla: Yeah, no, me either. Which, I mean, look, that is pretty common on Twitter. There are thousands of micro communities and niche interests and specialized knowledge that people chat about there, and it's not possible to be well versed in everything. Chris: Right? Kayla: Most times you can just kind of shrug and move on to. But there was something about this, like the indecipherableness of this particular tweet that really grabbed hold of my attention. Chris: What do you think it was? Kayla: Well, we're gonna get to that, obviously. Chris: Oh, okay. Kayla: It hinted at something much larger, like there was a bigger world behind the text of this tweet, and I wanted to get to know what that was like. I wanted to figure that out.

5:27 Chris: Right? It's like it showed you like a little tip of an iceberg and you're like, wait, what? Kayla: Yes. The phrase empty spaces in this context, like that felt so mysterious and unknowable. And I'm like, I wanted to know. I need to know the unknowable. There were other replies that were getting a kick out of what was apparently a pretty funny joke in this community. Chris: So I was like, wait, there's a joke in there? Kayla: I guess this is a joke of some kind. We'll get to that. Chris: Okay. Kayla: The replies were kind of playing along with it. I didn't know what community or fandom or special interest this tweet referenced, and I just. I had to. I had to know. Chris: Now I have to know. Kayla: The responses again didn't help. Quote, you gotta admit that the drones are doing a damn good job of wearing proper PPE at all times. I don't think I've ever seen one of them without a gas mask in a tire that keeps all of their skin covered and safe from potential hazards. Quote, I'm working on getting things compliant. Hardest thing so far is getting the angel girls to wear a safety harness when fawning more than 6ft off the ground.

6:27 Chris: This is making it worse. I'm more confused now. Kayla: Quote give every doll a high vis and flashing obstacle lights. Quote ugh. Fine. Safety rails around the doll hole, then what? Chris: No, I'm being more confused by the minute. Kayla: So, okay, I clearly was not gonna get any answers in this thread, so I needed to dig deeper. I searched empty spaces on Twitter in quotes, and after scrolling for a bit through some unrelated tweets and through some others, making cryptic references to things like dolls and angels and drones and witches, which is, I finally came upon someone asking the important question from can someone please explain what all this empty spaces doll stuff is? What is it, like some kind of kink or something?

7:16 Chris: It's a good guess. Kayla: Thank God. Chris: Yeah. Thank you. What was the Twitter handle? Emmer's. Kayla: Why? Chris: Thank you. Emmer's. Y. Kayla: Okay. In the replies, another user linked to a tweet from someone named aybelse titled, quote, an empty introduction. That tweet looked like this. Can you kind of describe it to our listeners? Chris: Yeah. So it looks like a desktop, like a Windows desktop. I can see some icons in the upper left hand corner, just like, you know, ye olde standard icons. There's the computer recycle bin, a folder of some kind, and Internet explorer, I guess edge now, whatever the hell. And then in the middle of the desktop, there's a bunch of open text windows with a bunch of text that's too small for me to read. And also, for some reason, this is all themed pink. It's very pink.

8:03 Kayla: It's kind of like pastel vapor wave. Yeah, it's very aesthetic, as the kids would say. Chris: Do I need to read these? Cause you have to get me a microscope. Kayla: We'll get to that. Okay, so there's like sticky notes on the desktop. It says an empty introduction. This is basically a sort of like faq for this community that we're about to get into. The actual text that you can't read right now since you'd have to zoom in. The actual text is super helpful in beginning to understand what we're talking about here. So I'm going to go ahead and read some of it. Chris: Okay. Actually, yeah, if I zoom in, I can read a little bit better. I think I'm just giving away my age at this point. Kayla: You need glasses? Chris: Do I need glasses? Okay, so now that I can read. So the first one says, what is empty spaces? That's a pretty good question.

8:50 Kayla: It's less a loose collective of writers and artists than it is a way to describe the shared themes and motifs resonating through them. It's angle of approach and the tint of the light and the sound of a doll crying in the other room. Just far enough away that you can't help her. It's a fallen angel smoking on the overpass and thinking about jumping off, even though she knows it won't kill her. It's about trauma and what comes after. Chris: Okay, read the next question. I don't know if it didn't really answer the question. Okay, I'm gonna move on to another one. Oh, oh, actually. Okay. So the next question is yes, but what is in capitals?

9:30 Kayla: Is it mostly micro fiction written by trauma queers? That's both. An approach to trauma informed by queer theory and traumatized queers, depending on who's talking. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Cooperative world building using archetypal motifs revolving around the scars we bear and inflict. Chris: Okay, this is. Okay, you're right. This is rad. And now that gives me a lot more. That suddenly brings it a lot more into focus. Kayla: I know. It's like, all of a sudden, it's like, what is going. Oh, I get it. Obviously it's not. Oh, I get it. And I fully understand it, but it's like I'm flailing and. Oh, I see. Yeah, I like the first paragraph was that moment when. Sorry to interrupt you, but it's like that moment when you're looking at, like, a magic eye poster.

10:13 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And you start to be able to see it. Chris: Yeah. And then you're just like, oh, yeah. Cause that. That first paragraph was. Was beautiful prose. Yes, it was. It was like a poem that you're just like, that's beautiful, but I don't. Kayla: Know what it is. I can feel it, but I don't know if I can logic it. Chris: Right, right. Let's see. I'm gonna go back to the. I'm gonna go to the upper right. What's this question reads, what's up with all the dolls and witches and angels? I also am wondering this. Kayla: Much of the space grew out of Egregirl's writings about angel girls and Rama, doll and ad dolls, writings about dolls and witches. So those concepts have ended up as central motifs. Chris: Okay. Kayla: They're used in a bunch of different ways, sometimes as metaphors and sometimes literally. They're archetypal motifs, running on vibes and trauma and queer yearning. Exactly what they are matters less than how they resonate with you.

11:02 Chris: So that also sounds cool and also helps me understand. There's another question on here I think is pretty good. Is it based on anything? Kayla: It's based on itself. While empty spaces draws on all sorts of different inspirations, ideas can ripple through it in odd ways. It's not fan fiction or an au of pre existing work. So au means, I think it means alternate universe. So that's something like in fanfiction where if I wanted to write a story about Spider man and Gwen Stacy, but instead of them being Spider man and Gwen Stacy, it's those. It's Peter Parker and Gwen Stacy, but they are living in a castle in the 18 hundreds, and he's like the stable boy and she's the princess. Like, you take those characters and put them. Yeah, put them into an alternate universe. So there's going to be some overlap.

11:54 Kayla: I think in this community where some folks who do write fan fiction and do write aus and do engage in that type of fandom or that type of creative writing maybe also create art in this space, but they're not the same thing. When you come to empty spaces, you're not bringing the Peter Parkers and the existing characters. Chris: You're not writing about Sonic the Hedgehog or Peter Parker or Harry Potter. You're writing about it's its own universe. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So if it's its own universe, does that mean there's, like, a canon? Actually, this next question. Yeah. Is there a canon? Is there, like, yes, this is part of the universe? No, this is not part of the universe.

12:34 Kayla: There isn't. One of the most exciting things about empty spaces is seeing the fresh interpretations that each new participant brings with them. Everyone has their own ideas about what things are and what they mean, and even the ones which are broadly agreed on tend to shift around a fair bit. Chris: Okay. So I feel a little ungrounded again. Kayla: Yes. Which is great. Chris: So there's no. There's no, like, this is accepted as part of the narrative, and this is nothing. So, like, you could have someone writes a story about, you know, Tim the fairy dragon, and then somebody else writes a story where it's like, tim is actually a fairy hawk. I don't know. I'm not good at this, as you can tell. But, like, it's okay. Like, those just sort of coexist. Is that the.

13:22 Kayla: Think of it less. Like, this isn't about. Okay. If you put it in the context of greek mythology, lots of different stories in greek mythology from lots of different sources. Right. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Generally, you know, prometheus will always be the same character. So think of the motifs in this, like the dolls, the witches, the angels, the drones. Think of them more as, like, nymphs or dryads or tropes and characters that exist but aren't necessarily, like, these pieces of canon that are static and move around. It's more. Oh. In this kind of subgenre, we as writers pull from these tropes that we've kind of collectively agreed upon or have aggregated into this space.

14:15 Chris: So there's, like, a shared mythology, like a shared set of motifs and themes, but not necessarily a shared, like, setting and narrative. Kayla: Correct. Chris: Is that right? Kayla: Okay, I think so. Yeah. Chris: Okay. So. Oh, yeah. Okay. This is. This feels like. It feels like these questions are lined up exactly with what I'm thinking. Kayla: It's a very good faq. Chris: Yeah, this seems really cool. How do I join in? Kayla: Usually people just start writing. You don't need to ask for permission or anything. This is not a gatekept or exclusive space. If it resonates with you, then it's for you. Chris: That's pretty cool. And actually, there was another thing I was thinking, in absence of a canon, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the cohesiveness of this must be in the community itself. More so than, like, the canon story. Like, the empty spaces refers to the community of writers.

15:08 Kayla: Yeah, there's no real canon story. There's not really even, like, cohesiveness, I think, is a tricky word to use here. It kind of seems like there's a collective of writers that. A collective of micro fiction or flash fiction writers. Writers. We'll get to that. That tend to congregate on Twitter. And in their writing, they have all gravitated towards including certain motifs or tropes in their work. The work, the individual pieces of work, are not necessarily connected to each other in narrative or plot points or overarching story. It's more, I'm writing a story about a doll who finds a witch, and that's this little piece of flash fiction. And somebody over here is, I'm writing a story about a drone who falls down a hole and there's angel girl, and that's that piece of flash fiction.

16:00 Chris: What's a drone? Kayla: Sorry, we'll get to that. I'm pulling on some. I'm pulling from some of the tropes and things that is used in this space. So it's more like, almost think of the things that we're talking about where we're saying angels, witches, drones, dolls. Kind of like paint colors. Kind of like paint colors. Chris: Yeah. I mean, that speaks to motif. The motifness of it to me. Yeah. Kayla: So thank you again to else or a lse for putting together this empty introduction, because it really helped pull some of this into focus for me. Chris: Yeah, this is a great intro.

16:41 Kayla: Does that help? Do you have any questions? Chris: I think I have a million questions. I'm just. I'm struggling, like, whether I should ask them or wait, I guess I do want to ask. And this is. I hate to keep harping on the canon thing, but, like, I mean, what if I go onto Twitter? It's, you know, this last question. Right. How do I join in? Is basically just like, start participating. No gatekeeping. Like, let's say I go on Twitter and I write. I write something and I link to it, hashtag empty spaces. And I. But the thing I write is just awful. It's just terrible for whatever reason. Like. Kayla: Like, poor quality or doesn't really follow the vibe. Chris: Doesn't really. I would say it doesn't really follow the vibe because I imagine this group to be a type, like, a more accepting of, like, I don't think they probably care about quality as much as they do about, like, intent. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

17:28 Kayla: I don't get the sense that this is a community of, like, being judgmental. Chris: Yeah, that's what I mean for expression. Kayla: Not necessarily like, yeah. Again, it's not a gatekeeped community. Chris: Right. Kayla: I don't get the sense that there are arbiters sitting on Twitter going, you're a bad writer, you're a good writer. I don't know. I could be wrong, but I don't get the sense that's really a part of this. Chris: Yeah. So my question is less about quality and more about, like. I mean, there's other ways to be awful, if you catch my drift. Like, are there ways for them? Like, do they. Does that happen where somebody, like, writes something and says, hey, this is empty space, rejected from. Yeah. Kayla: Doesn't really fit the aesthetic. I don't know. I kind of feel like it's one of those things. And again, I'm very welcome, very open to being corrected on this, since I just learned about this community. I'm not a participant of the community. I am an observer and an enjoyer. At this point. It seems like it's one of those things where because it's not a gatekeeped community, people who. The vibe, like, if the vibe resonates with you and you want to write something and it doesn't resonate with others, like, that's kind of. That's okay.

18:38 Chris: Just sort of naturally falls off. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Okay. There's a collective here. So if you write a. If you write a story where you just write the b movie, but you. Chris: Call it the doll movie, hey, that sounds pretty good. Kayla: That's probably not going to punch through the noise of the rest of the community and, like, be any sort of issue. It's just if I don't. I don't see that being, like, an issue in the community. I could be wrong. I could be wrong. And if anybody from the empty spaces community is listening, I hope that you are. We're very excited to be talking about you and the work that you're doing. Please feel free to correct me. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I know. I still had some questions after reading this, though. I was especially. Cause I was reading it, like, 04:00 in the morning. So I know I had some questions. Luckily, I found another bit of helpful information. Or another bit of information.

19:31 Chris: Okay. Kayla: To introduce me to this sphere, I'm going to send it to you. Let's see if it helps answer some questions for you. Chris: Oh, okay. Thank you. Kayla: What are you looking at there, Chris? Chris: I was going to ask you that. Kayla: Actually, that's not clear what you're seeing. Chris: It is a website, and I know this because there's a URL that you sent me to click on. So I know that it is technically a website. It looks to be some kind. Oh, I can zoom in and out. Kayla: I didn't realize that I would zoom to a comfortable. So that you can see all of it at once. Chris: Yeah, let me do that. Okay. I can see all of it at once. It's art. It's there. It looks to be sort of like a map of some kind. I think it's maybe mapping out these motifs and themes that you were and tropes that you were telling me about.

20:21 Kayla: That is exactly what it is, because. Chris: I see some little circles here. There's a bunch of connected circles. They're connected by arrows. And then there's, like. It looks like there's some categorization circles, like, drawn around the smaller circles, but the small circles have the things in it that you were saying, like dolls. And I also see moths. I see drones. I see the liars, I see devils. So there's, like, a lot of cool words in here. Kayla: There's the void, there's witches, there's the unreal. There's. And I just want to describe the imagery a bit like, again, the coloring. There's purples, there's pinks, there's mushrooms, there's flames. It almost looks like shoots in ladders in some way, in the ways that the circles are connecting to each other and then expanding out to connect to others. Kind of like a flowchart in a way. Some arrows are single directional. I guess all the arrows are single directional, but it's twisting. It's winding curves.

21:18 Chris: It looks very organic as opposed to artificial. Kayla: Beautiful to look at. It is a piece of art. And again, this comes from else who put together the empty introduction. Chris: Ooh. There's iterations. Kayla: This is called the ways of being map. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And again, it's another piece of information to help kind of describe the emerging qualities of the empty spaces. Creative vibe collective. Chris: Okay. Creative. Okay. Okay. It's very cool looking. Kayla: So I was still very confused at this point. I'm not gonna lie again. That had to do with it being 04:00 in the morning, I'm trying to piece together what's going on Twitter. I think that our listeners may still, maybe you do too. Could still use some stable footing, some grounding in this community that we're now talking about.

22:14 Chris: Definitely. And also, I will say that I feel compelled to just like, pause the podcast and just look at it. Look at this map for an hour and just like, read all the little beautiful. Kayla: And it's beautifully drawn. And it's very complex. Yeah, it's very complex. Chris: Yeah. The curves that link the little lines that link different circles that have words in them. So, like, linking drones to hives, for example, are actually arrows, which I think indicates some sort of like, you know, directional relationship. And then those directional, there's words describing those arrows as well. So there's a lot to unpack here. I'm totally gonna look at this later. Kayla: I know. I kind of want to print it out and just like.

22:55 Chris: Yeah, yeah. Kayla: Because I just. Yeah, the arrows all have labels. And it's like, this is how the. We could spend probably the entire episode just talking about the complexity of this map. We have a lot to cover, so I won't do that. But yes, we're definitely. The image of this map will be shared in the show notes, and we'll also be sure to retweet it on our social media so you'll be able to see it. Let's step back a little bit. Let's get a little bit more context overall, just so we can feel a little more grounded for those of us who are less comfortable in this more esoteric, impermanent, ephemeral ground. So let's talk about flash fiction and micro fiction. I think I've said those words a couple times.

23:35 Kayla: So from Wikipedia, flash fiction is a fictional work of art, of extreme brevity, that still offers character and plot development. So you know what flash fiction is like. You've seen it before. Chris: Is that like the two sentence horror fiction? Yes. Kayla: Two sentence horror stories is a type of flash fiction. Like flash fiction as a genre or style, it often gets divided further into sub variants. So there's like the six word story, which is, you know, think of for sale baby shoes never worn. Chris: Right. Kayla: Did you know that's not. We don't actually know that. That was Ernest Hemingway. Chris: Oh, really? Kayla: That it may be falsely attributed. Chris: I mean, at this point, isn't like everything falsely attributed?

24:17 Kayla: Yeah, I guess so. Still, great story. Micro fiction is traditionally around 100 to 300 words. I came across the phrase Twitter, which refers to like 280 characters stories. Flash fiction is generally a thousand words or less. So flash fiction is a piece of writing that is 1000 words or less. Chris: Okay, thank you for that. Def. I didn't know what the actual definition was. I knew it was, you know, very. Kayla: Tiny, very tiny fiction. Chris: Very tiny scenes. Kayla: Like the two sentence horror stories that you see on Twitter, you see on Reddit, other micro blogging sites. I wanted to pull this quote from Wikipedia as well. Quote, some commentators have suggested that flash fiction possesses a unique literary quality in its ability to hint at or imply a larger story worded another way. Quote, it's not the size of the word count in the story, it's the size of the story in the word count.

25:09 Chris: Ooh, that's a great quote. That totally describes the for sale baby shoes never worn. Kayla: Yeah, it also, I think that this kind of, like, this is what drew me in about that initial tweet was the ability, the tweet's ability to hint at a larger story. And I was like, I gotta know the larger story. Chris: Yeah. Wait, hold on. What does this have to do with. Wait, osha guidelines? Kayla: We'll get back to it. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I assumed because of how perfectly it fits in the Twitter format, that flash fiction was a primarily hyper modern form of art. Like very of the moment. Chris: I assume that too. Kayla: It's not okay at all. Flash fiction actually dates back to the dawn of the written word.

25:52 Chris: Wow. I mean, now that has been with us forever. Yeah, it kind of makes sense. Kayla: Think of things like Aesop's fables or like parables or Zen cones. Like, all of those are. Chris: Yeah, that's true. Kayla: Basically. Like, that's flash fiction by definition. And in the US, flash fiction can be traced back to the 18 hundreds, with authors like Walt Whitman or one of my faves, Kate Chopin. Back at the turn of the century, flash fiction was referred to as short stories. Chris: We wear shorts and were featured. Kayla: In magazines and anthologies. Other prominent or well known authors who have worked in the flash fiction medium include O. Henry, our boy, Ernest Hemingway, Ray Bradbury, Italo Calvino, Bertold Brecht, Franz Kafka, Augusto Monterosso, Luis Felipe Lomelli, Anna Maria Schua, Leila al Othman, Lenore Goralik, and PK par Kadavu, among many others.

26:46 Chris: That's a long list. Kayla: There's also a thematic collection that I learned about that I desperately want to read by an author named Robert Owen Butler called severance. Chris: What's thematic? You mean there's like a. Kayla: It's a collection of stories that all, like, shares a 62 shorts where each story is about the last 90 seconds of consciousness of someone who has just been decapitated. Chris: Oh, my God. I don't know. That sounds a little too disturbing. Kayla: That sounds like my dream book. Oh, my God. Chris: It sounds absolutely fascinating. But I don't know if my existential dread could handle it. Kayla: I'm doing it. I'm diving into it. Chris: You let me know how it is.

27:26 Kayla: So, yeah, it has flash fiction, micro fiction, been around for a long time. Super embedded in the body of creative writing as a whole. Chris: Okay. Kayla: But while it's not unique to the Internet has definitely spread awareness of the genre, like, bringing it to new readers and to new writers who may have not been exposed to it otherwise or may have not been, like, able to. I don't want to say, like, Twitter is publishing, but may not have been able to get their work in front of other. In front of readers without something like the Internet. There are a number of online literary journals that publish or focus on flash fiction, and even the New Yorker started running a flash fiction series every summer.

28:07 Chris: That's cool. I didn't know that. Kayla: So empty spaces basically refers to a collection of micro fiction stories and writers and their collective emergent vibes and aesthetic as it exists on Twitter and elsewhere on the Internet. Chris: Got it. Okay, so it's a particular collection of these short, short stories and all of, like, the motifs and vibes and whatnot, correct? Kayla: Yes. Let's get into it. We're still just getting into it. Chris: Oh, we're still just starting. Oh, boy. Kayla: So first I want to say I just recently discovered empty spaces. My understanding of it is still evolving. What we'll be talking about moving forward are my observations from the last few days. I have spoken with a handful of folks from the community itself to help shape this episode.

28:53 Chris: Wow. Just in the last couple of days. Kayla: I know. I feel bad for the people that I reached out to because I was like, hi, can I talk to you in the next two days, please? Cause I have an episode coming out, and I'm gonna be brushing you and making my urgency your problem. Because of that, I definitely did not get to have as many conversations as I would like. I hope to continue these conversations and to continue diving deep into the community, moving forward, and maybe giving updates or doing bonus episodes about it. I definitely want to keep this evolving. Chris: Sure, sure. Yeah. Kayla: I've read you an empty introduction, showed you the map of the ways of being. I mentioned that these resources were put together by a writer named else. Else uses she, her, and its pronouns, and it writes stories on Twitter at maybe else. And I chatted on just the Twitter messaging, and it was kind enough to answer a number of questions that I had about the community. So let's begin with how empty spaces started. Empty spaces can be traced back to the beginning of 2021, so it's kind.

29:52 Chris: Of oh, that's super. Holy shit. Kayla: Yeah, it's still a new phenomenon from else. Quote, the most concise answer I can give is that Kate, who's eager girls and omournights one, and my girlfriend dragged me in when she started writing about angels near the start of 2021. It wasn't really empty spaces at that point. Of course, dolls and witches weren't part of it untilraumadoll and Ednddoll started posting their writing in June 2021, and Kate didn't make the list of writers until August 2021. This is a year old community, essentially. Chris: Yeah, that's like brand new. Kayla: But looking back, most of what I wrote in early and mid 2021 would fit perfectly in today's empty spaces, though it's less polished than my recent writing, end quote. I asked else if it could further define empty spaces beyond what was stated in her introduction. It said, I don't think I can come up with a better description than the one in an empty introduction, which we read. Though it is more focused on the creative side. It omits the ways in which people resonate or identify with different archetypes, and doesn't touch at all on how not a person has become a rallying call and signifier. Lara Fay just posted a very good thread about both that and some of the reasons that empty spaces resonates with people. Sometimes I think of it as a micro genre. Kate likes calling it an art movement.

31:09 Kayla: Okay, so in Alice's introduction, she described empty spaces as a collective of writers and artists using shared themes and motifs to explore trauma and what comes after. And then here else mentioned not a person. Quote, not a person. So let's. Chris: What is that? Kayla: Let's talk a little bit about what not a person means. Or at least we'll talk about my limited, my somewhat limited understanding of it. So there are individuals in humankind who do not identify as persons, and they may instead identify as things. This identity alignment can be due to maybe having experienced something like trauma or dehumanizing events, or from containing a number of intersecting, marginalizing identities that cause one to have a life experience so deviated from the norm that they no longer identify as something recognizable in the mainstream as a person.

32:05 Chris: So does this mean they don't identify as a human or I don't identify as a person or kind of a. I don't know. Kayla: I don't know about human. I think it's more about person versus not a person. But that's probably a better question for somebody who actually feels like not a person. Okay, this might sound kind of. This might sound very foreign to, maybe even scary to those of us who are just learning about this concept. It might even sound like a bad thing or dehumanizing to say I'm not a person or I'm a thing. I know that there are those in the empty spaces community who would argue against that and instead claim that not a person as a rallying cry is actually something empowering, or at least something that offers the comfort of describing experiences that differ from what is prescribed. Okay, so else mentioned Twitter user at alarafey that there was a thread that it did regarding not a person.

33:04 Kayla: One of the posts helps explain this concept better than I can. And this post from Alara Faye reads, quote, I am not a person. And I want to say that not a person is capitalized. Chris: Okay, so Alara Faye is saying this. Kayla: Yes. Okay, I am not a person. That's about oppression, trauma, alienation, identity, resistance. I do not want nor need to be fixed. I will heal in my own way, but I will never be normal. I will never be what society wants me to be. That's why I want not a person to be a slogan. Or as Twitter user evora M. Gold puts it's pronouns are a political statement. Not a person is a political statement. You can't take our reclamation of our inhumanity from us because you're uncomfortable with our happiness.

33:52 Chris: I think I understood that. Kayla: Does that make sense? Does all of that we just talked about make sense? Chris: I think I understand. I may not. I don't. I don't know if I understand, like, in detail, but I think I understand the, like, wanting to reclaim or wanting to protect the idea of your own otherness as being something that's like, okay and not pathological. Kayla: Right. I really resonate with that. Chris: That makes sense. Kayla: The idea of, like, I am either through identity or through circumstance or through things that have happened. I am different. I am so different that I am maybe even unrecognizable. And I don't need to change that. That is who I am.

34:40 Chris: I don't need to change this. This is who I am thing. Super. That I understand that super resonates with me. I think what's more challenging is it's hard for me to, like, a lot of how I typically understand things is, like. Is through my own empathy. And, like, say, like, okay, how would this feel? Like, how would this feel if I were this person? And I'm struggling with that. Like, I'm struggling with what it would mean to feel. Like, how would it feel to feel like you're not a person? That's where I think I'm more confused. But I do. I do. The part where I do have some internal touchstones that I can kind of resonate is what were saying. Is that the not apologizing for your differentness.

35:22 Kayla: Right, right. I do want to reiterate, I maybe said this earlier. I'm not sure if I did, but empty spaces is largely, maybe even exclusively comprised of queer writers. It is also made up of a number of creators who are plural. So our listeners might remember us talking about plurality when we covered tulpas in, I think season one was season one. Tulpas. Chris: Season one was tulpas, baby. Season two. We talked to nikto and tubes. Kayla: Yes. Chris: God bless you. Season one was the Tulpas episode. Kayla: Yeah. I'll just quickly define plurality. Plurality refers to the experience of having more than one or multiple distinct personalities, identities, or consciousness contained in a single mind body. The plurality community. Well, then that means it includes people with dissociative identity disorder, tulpa mancers, and their tulpas. You know, there's a wide spectrum. It includes much more, but generally, think of it as there's a body and there are more than one personalities inside of it.

36:23 Chris: Yep. Kayla: Plurality can result from experiencing trauma, but it can also arise without it. Being plural can be a traumatic experience in the way that individuals may be treated by society, and so not a person may be a relevant concept for many in the plurality community. Chris: Actually, that helps me understand if I think of a tulpa might identify as not a person. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: So that actually, now I understand it a little bit better. Okay. Kayla: I'm glad that helps. It just seems like empty spaces might be a creative outlet that appeals to those with these experiences, appeals to plural people, appeals to queer people that maybe have many different intersecting identities amongst those spectrums. So. Okay, do we have a better sense of how empty space is formed and who might be involved in it?

37:14 Chris: Yes. How did it form? Oh, Antonia, 21 with the. Kayla: With eager girls and several other writers basically starting to do micro fiction on Twitter that started overlapping in themes that were being explored, and then it kind of snowballed into this collective. Chris: Okay, okay. Kayla: Let's get into some of the whys. I asked els what brought it to empty spaces, and she said, quote, as far as why I'm a part of this weird thing, I've always been fascinated with body horror and transformations. I think that comes with being trans. I adore writing that blends metaphor and unreality and reality. I like trying to capture my own experiences in words and weaving stories that evoke feelings that I can't describe in any other way. It's a writer, baby. I love it.

38:02 Chris: Yeah, I was gonna say that. I can see why that would appeal to you as a writer. Kayla: Body horror transformations like reality and unreality conflating. Yes, good stuff here. When I asked what the community is like, it said, it's always seemed friendly and welcoming to me, though that's generally the sort of thing people near the center of a community say, isn't it? Almost everyone involved in it is queer in one way or another. It started out almost entirely transfems, and we still comprise the bulk of the community, but there's a growing contingent of trans mascs making extremely cool art and playing with angelic metaphors. In my opinion, the way that the entire community leans towards queer as default is one of the most cozy things about it.

38:42 Chris: Okay. And just so transfems means. It means a trans person who embodies feminine qualities. And transmasc is that. But for masculine qualities. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Yes. I love the idea of queer as default being cozy. I just. There is something very special about finding a community in which if you're a marginalized person, you're marginalized in some way or you're different in some way, finding a community where that differentness is default. Chris: Yeah, that. Kayla: Yeah, that cozy is such a good cozy. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: Yeah, it's a. You can kind of just breathe differently.

39:25 Chris: Right? Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, as a white dude. Kayla: As a white dude, all of society is that. As a white lady, all of society is that for me. But, like, okay, for example, I can. Chris: Say that when I go to. When I see a movie that has a white male protagonist, okay. It makes me feel so cozy. Kayla: Right? Chris: 99% of the time. Kayla: For example, as a bi person, I'm almost never in environments that are, like. That's the default. I can expect that everybody around me is this as well. It's just. That's. And I have so many privileges that I have that coziness all of the time, but for that particular aspect of my identity, I don't finding an Internet community where it's like, not only is that, like, the norm, that's just, like, the default, that's just the expectation. That's just like. That's just what it is. I'm just. I'm really glad that this exists for people.

40:22 Chris: I really hate to use this phrase, but it's like a safe space, I. Kayla: Think, like, in a literal sense, reclaim safe space. Chris: Right? Kayla: I want to be in safe space. Chris: Forget all of the baggage with that. And just the words safe space feel like they apply to it. Kayla: It's a safe arena, safe location, safe, empty space. Safe, empty spaces. So let's talk a little bit about those angelic metaphors that Els mentioned and the dolls and the witches and the other top, the other tropes that we've mentioned. When a community is this new and this ephemeral and this creative, honestly, it can be difficult to nail down things like definitions and explanations. And, like, especially when it seems like a lot of this writing is exploring one's own psyche through metaphor and symbolism. It's like that stuff gets hard to define because it is nebulous. It is. Well, I'm doing big movements with my arms that are listeners. Kayla is flailing, but you can see it, so maybe you can translate this.

41:27 Chris: Kayla is just wildly swinging her arms around. Oh, God. Don't knock the microphone over. Kayla: Sorry. Chris: One of the things, like, as you're saying this, it kind of feels like the lack of. It kind of feels like the lack of secure footing is more of a feature than a bug, though, right? It sounds like part of the confusion is part of the point, right? It's about the fluidity of certain concepts, and it's about the conflation of reality. Unreality. And like El said, it's like. It's about transformations and in that environment and that, like, extremely, like, unfamiliarly so fluid environment. Kayla: Right.

42:08 Chris: I think it. Like I said, it makes sense. It's a feature, not a bug. That I would be, like, feeling a little unmoored. Kayla: I would venture to say that there's some expression of the trans experience as a whole in the way that this kind of manifests. And I'm speaking as a CIs person, so, you know, don't take me as any sort of authority as an outside observer. However, it does kind of feel. It makes sense that people who have been through the process of examining an identity, an aspect of identity that feels, in mainstream society, so concrete and so unchallengeable.

42:49 Chris: Right? Kayla: Just like, so fundamental, like, that's just the way it is, if you have the experience of examining that and challenging that and changing it and realizing it doesn't apply to you in the ways that it applies in this mainstream society, it makes sense to me then, that creativity in yourself manifesting as being comfortable and maybe even cozy in a space that is more nebulous and ephemeral and fluid like the word you used, it feels like. That feels reflective to me, in a way. Again, as an outside observer, it's like. Chris: Being in a cozy, lazy river. Kayla: Who doesn't want to be in a cozy, lazy river?

43:29 Chris: It's moving all around. Kayla: There's comfort, but it's cozy. There's comfort in the unstable footing. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I feel like that's maybe also reflective of, like, having traumatic experiences or being plural or having these non normative experiences, there's maybe more comfort in the instability than not. Chris: Damn, this episode got deep. Kayla: Deep. I'm not a psychologist. I shouldn't. Chris: I didn't even smoke or anything. I feel like we're getting super deep. Kayla: I love this episode. Okay, so, okay, let's talk about the definitions. Luckily for us, yes, it's nebulous and whatnot. But an empty spaces dictionary actually exists, and it's pretty fucking cool. Chris: All right. Lexicons are the best.

44:11 Kayla: Twitter userheepwaven created the dictionary on her site, and it defines the following in an empty spaces context or some of the following. I won't read them all. So we've got empty spaces, doll, witch, angel, halo, purpose, spider, moth, pact, bound, stillness, void, puppy, God, clown, slime, reflection, shadow, and several others. Chris: This is, like, begging to be turned into a tabletop game. Kayla: That could be pretty cool. I'm gonna just send this to you as well, just so you have it. So these are the terms or tropes that are used often enough in various empty spaces writings that the community has kind of, like, emergently decided these should be somewhat defined. And I say somewhat because the way that the empty spaces dictionary works is that when you click on a term, three definitions drop down. Each definition is pulled from another empty space's writer's tweets, and the definitions refresh each time you click. So they're not even like, sorry, say that again. So it's not even like a solid definition. It's like an ephemeral changing, like, maybe related, maybe not kind of connected only in vibes or not kind of way.

45:26 Chris: It's like the way that it defines something. Is it, like, licks its finger and sticks it in the air a little bit? Kayla: So do you want me to explain it again? Chris: Yeah, can you please explain it again? Sorry. Because it's just the mechanics of it. Kayla: So there's a list of terms. Chris: Yeah, I see the list of terms. Kayla: Click on a term that you want to find. Chris: Okay, I clicked on combat doll. Kayla: Did three definitions drop down? Chris: Yes, I got three definitions drop down. Do you want me to read them? Kayla: Let me finish explaining, and then I want you to read them. Okay, so each line, each definition is pulled from another. Empty spaces, writers tweets. Chris: Okay, so it specifically knows, like, a certain subset of Twitter users. Kayla: Correct. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And the definitions are going to refresh each time you click. Chris: Okay, that is super rad. I can't wait to click again. But first, can I read these?

46:07 Kayla: Yes. Chris: All right. The three definitions for combat doll are plays Minecraft and is good at Redstone. The second one is CW content warning blood. I think that I'm starting to get a picture a little bit here. And then the third is, it's odd how she dodges the question of what she does. Like, see, the. What's cool about this is that I kind of feel like it's almost less of a dictionary and more of a, like, flash fiction sampler. Kayla: It's like a vibe. Vibe roulette. Chris: Yeah, yeah. It's like flash fiction vibe roulette, which feels very, like, tightly integrated into what they're trying to do. Right. Like, I think, you know, like a Merriam Webster's wouldn't. Wouldn't feel on brand, but this super does, right? This is like, it's always changing. It's never the same. And, like, literally it's here. It's odd how she dodges the question of what she does is totally its own, like, little flash fiction thing that makes me wonder, who's she? Why? What is she dodging? Why is she dodging?

47:07 Kayla: Let me read you what I just got when I clicked on empty spaces. So empty spaces probably brought about by the collective trauma of the pandemic head. Empty heart gone. You can mend a plush, sew it back up, but the scars won't ever disappear. Chris: Wow. Kayla: And then if I click it again, different. If I click it again, different. If I click it again, different. It's just, I love this tool. Chris: This is the coolest thing I've ever. Kayla: Seen at sheepwave end. Just like, this is incredible coding. Incredible idea. The crowdsourcing, the design. The design. Oracle. Oracle's have seen the end. Hasn't taken her meds in weeks. I warned you. Chris: Yeah, and I'm not. When I say design, I don't just mean, like, the art is cool, but I just mean, like, the. I guess you said it's like the idea for this. Like, the idea for what it does is like, where does somebody come up with that? That's so, like, it's so creative. Just tickles my brain.

48:01 Kayla: Yeah, I know you asked earlier what a drone is. Chris: Oh, yeah, hold on. Let me click on it. Kayla: Oh, I clicked on drone. Chris: Okay, well, we're gonna get two different things. Kayla: Yeah. What does yours say? Chris: New hive. Looking to settle down with two or 3000 drones. That makes sense because you gotta have a lot of drones. The next line. 486-57-8636 f 7270-2069-7320-6120-6375-6074 end quote. So that clears it up a lot. And then the third line says synths, like, synthetic synths, are a bit like drones, but with no human inside. And again, like, that third one, again, it just feels like a little bit of, like, flash fiction.

48:46 Kayla: Yeah. Yeah. Chris: I just want to sit around on. Kayla: This because it is pulling from flash fiction. So true. Chris: That makes sense. Okay. Kayla: But the way that these things go together, it's like your brain starts connecting the dots in between the lines and creating this own emergent story. And, like, I still don't know what a drone is, but, like, it's good that I don't know what a drone is because it's better that I start to feel what this is trying to represent and figure out what that, like, represent. It's almost like looking at an inkblot test where I'm like, what does this mean to me? Chris: You know what it's like? It's like a chair. Like, you can't really say. Kayla: You can't. Chris: No, I know. Or a sandwich. Right. Kayla: It's funny that you say chair, because the chair argument of, like, how do you define a chair that includes all things that are chairs and excludes everything.

49:29 Chris: That it's not a chair. Yeah. Kayla: Is an argument that is used to explain why you cannot define a woman without. If you try to define a woman. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: And exclude trans women, you're going to exclude cis women. You can't do it. Chris: I literally had no idea. Kayla: The chair thing in particular, I have seen that used as an explanation for why trying to have these very binary, limited explanations for, like, what is a woman, what is a man, to. While trying to exclude people who may be trans in favor of those who may be cis, you can't do it. You're going to be interested in ways.

50:11 Chris: You don't intend yeah, that dovetail. I had no idea that dovetailed there. The reason I brought it up is because chair, you know, the thing where it's like. Yeah, it's like you said, it's so hard to, like, sit there and define it. That includes everything that's correct and includes everything that's incorrect. Kayla: An individual with four legs and a back. Does that sound like a chair? Chris: It does, but it also describes a horse. Right. So what I'm saying is that, like. But we still know what chairs are. And the reason for that is that there's just like, a lot of examples. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: Like, we are experiential. Our continued experiential examples with chairs is what gives our brain this, like, concept of chair, right. And it kind of feels like that's what this dictionary is doing, right. It's like, it's not going to say it's like a dictionary devoid of definitions, but a bunch of using it in a sentence. Right? Like, you can keep getting these examples. Sentences of, like, what? Drones? It's never going to tell you what a drone is, but by the time you see all these examples, you'll be like. You'll have. You'll know.

51:07 Kayla: Right? Chris: That's so cool. Kayla: I know. It's really cool. Chris: I hate how cool that is. Kayla: So, like, I cannot really define these things for you. And I think that's the point. That's the point. It's the point. And this dictionary, it's like anti. It's like a doll is here, witch is here, Halo's here. But all I can really give you are the pieces of flash fiction that people have already written. Chris: Damn, this is such a cool idea. Kayla: I know, I know. We will of course, link to the empty spaces dictionary that created. We'll link to it in the show notes. We will share it on social media as well because it's. It's such a beautifully designed tool, and I could spend a lot of time just sitting here clicking.

51:51 Chris: By the way, there is a definition for what a sandwich is. Kayla: Just so we're aware, we spent 8. Chris: Hours, we spent a very long time. Kayla: Discussing it, figuring this out. Chris: And the answer is that it is one thing in between two other things, and that's it. Kayla: One thing between two other things. Chris: It could be anything. Kayla: We can't get into it. Cause it'll take us 8 hours. So did this help give you a better grasp on the kind of aesthetic or vibe we're playing with here? Chris: Totally. Which is super meta because I didn't understand it when you were just defining it. Kayla: Right. Chris: But now that I've experienced it, I kind of do. Kayla: And I think that the more you sit around and click in this thing, the more the same with, like, you. Chris: Know, scrolling on Twitter as a game designer. This just makes me so jealous. Kayla: I know. Chris: Ugh.

52:32 Kayla: Scrolling through the, like, the empty spaces writer list on Twitter also really helped me. It's like, I can't define it for you, but, like, when. Now when I'm scrolling through my main feed, when I see an empty spaces tweet come across, I'm like, oh, I know what that is. Chris: The way that this just, like, gets into your brain and just, like, kind of pokes at it and tickles it is just like, if I. God, if I ever do something like that as a game designer, I will feel like chef's kiss. I hope one day. Kayla: I want to say that. And we kind of got into it a little bit, but I just want to say that these themes and these motifs, everything feels very layered. Like, containing multiple meanings. Like, there's lots to discuss and analyze and uncover. Like, it's a literature. High school literature's wet dream. Like, it's my wet dream. Like, I just. I really appreciate the deep layering in this creative world, and it's something that I think you can often see when you interact with art created by trans people. Like, specifically created by trans people or art that comes from largely trans communities. Again, I'm saying this as an observer, but it feels like people who have done more examination of their own gender, of, like, this very fundamental thing.

53:48 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Produce art that has certain nuances that I don't see elsewhere, I think. Chris: Yeah, those folks. Kayla: I think about the matrix. Chris: That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So the matrix is a great example. Right. Kayla: I know that's, like, the low hanging fruit. Like, first thing to grab, but it's such a great example. Chris: That's a kind of fruit, Kayla, because then I don't have to get a ladder. Kayla: Yeah. Like the Aesop's fables, the grapes. I'd rather have low hanging grapes. Cause then I could get it, and then I wouldn't be sour grape. Chris: That's right. But, yeah, I just mean this certainly, I think, applies to the matrix. But, like, folks who've had that kind of experience are able to sort of peel back certain layers of reality in a way that those of us who haven't had that experience can't. Right. There's, like, these certain assumptions that, like, it's like this. Like, it's like a black swan kind of thing, where it's like, you don't know until, you know, like, you. And then it kind of takes somebody who's, like, had that experience to show you that layer of reality is even capable of being peeled back, which is, I think, what lets the rest of us look at it and go like, whoa.

54:48 Kayla: And this is why, selfishly, I want experiences of people that do not look like me, do not have lives like me. I want those experiences in art more because it just makes reality so much more expansive. Chris: I do just, like, I want it because I'm selfish. Right? Kayla: That's what I'm saying. Like, selfishly, I want to have these. This experience that I'm having with empty spaces right now. Like, I want this. I want more of this. I want to be able to connect to experiences that I will never fully understand, but I want to connect to them, and I want to know about them, and I want to. I want to be able to have those experiences. Just give me a little bit of that expansion. And that is definitely, like, yeah, I. Totally selfish. I'm so glad that people are getting to express themselves. Yes, of course. And also siphoning it off a little bit, too, as the art observer. Yeah, I want more of that.

55:45 Chris: That's the thing. Yeah, that's what's. That's a great symbiosis. They get to express themselves, and I get to, like, see their expression. It's awesome. Kayla: God bless art. I asked else what prompted it to write an empty introduction and the ways of being map. So those two tools that we already looked at, and it said the first three iterations of the map were in late June 2021. Looking back, I'm shocked to remember that they were all one day. So the first three. The first ever done one day. Chris: Just a confession. I was clicking through the iterations as you were talking earlier. Kayla: That makes sense. They were all one day gradually elaborating and adding detail to what started out as a very bare bones attempt to illustrate the connections I saw between different concepts. The idea came to me in the shower, and it just felt like it made sense to do rather a lot of what I do is driven by sudden moods and fixations. I try to follow the fun, relate to that.

56:38 Chris: Okay, these guys are game designers. I'm sorry? Kayla: This group of folks are game designers? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Yeah. The introduction came out of discussions that had been bouncing around empty spaces for a while. Also, I'll say that empty spaces is oftentimes shortened to just ESD. So Es started out intentionally obscure and still is, though. The sheep wave ends dictionary and my introduction have both done a bit to change that in a way that made things difficult for people who were just running across it, especially anyone who wanted concrete answers, just like you and me. Chris: But you know what? God, just the experience of just like, my past hour is just like, the design of that experience is just so cool because I went through a bit of an evolution of I don't understand and the demand to understand my brain. When you first encounter something that's so different or confusing or unstable, your brain is just yelling at you. Understand this, understand this. And the gradual washing away of that as you showed me some of these things was just like a fucking trip to do, like just sitting here doing it.

57:51 Kayla: I'm glad you're having a good experience. Chris: I am. This is fun. Kayla: To continue this answer quote. If I recall, at that point, there had been a few attempts to put together threads excluding particular aspects of it. So it just felt natural to write up my own attempt, with help and proofreading from several of the other writers I talked to on discord. I'm really quite pleased that people still find it useful, though. It's probably due for an update one of these days, end quote. And you and I will be right there waiting for the update. Chris: Yeah. Can I get like a notification list or something? Kayla: I just want to. I know we've been checking in, but I do want to take another moment to just check in with you. Like, what are your thoughts so far? How are you feeling? You did just say you've had. You explain the experience you've had. So, like, maybe we don't need to check in right now. Chris: That was my check in.

58:32 Kayla: That was your check in? Chris: Okay, here it is. Kayla: Yeah. Yeah. This is why I've, like, been wanting to talk. I literally found out about this. Chris: How did you not tell me on Tuesday? Wow. Kayla: And it's Sunday right now. I don't even, I haven't even known about this for a week. Chris: And I'm just, what, a torturous several days for you? Kayla: I know it's hard. It's been hard, it's been tough. I'm so glad to be able to talk about it now. Chris: You hear that, listeners? We sacrifice, we don't talk to each other, we ruin our marriage. Kayla: It's terrible. So I do want to transition now into talking about trauma. So we don't really get into too many difficult specifics. But just be aware, if you're listening, that we are going to talk about trauma. We've talked a little bit so far about how exploring trauma is a central theme in empty spaces in the works, and how many writers in the movement experience or have experienced trauma in their lives. Writing in the empty spaces aesthetic seems to be a therapeutic exercise for many in the community. So those tropes we explore, dolls, witches, angels, they all take on layered meanings, representing aspects of abuse or other traumatic events, and probing one's own trauma. Using these tropes acts as a form of therapy. And I don't mean to.

59:47 Kayla: I'm using the word therapy just because of, like, the limits of my own vocabulary and the limits of the english language. I don't mean that really in, like, the CBT talk therapy way. I mean that in a. Like, people get to processing kind of. Yeah. Like, people get to examine what happened to them through a symbolic lens kind of way. Chris: I definitely have experienced that in a big way with the art that I have done for our game project over the past year. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Are you kidding me? Have you seen the art? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Some of it's pretty dark. Kayla: Yeah, I know. I like it. Chris: There's a lot of body horror. Kayla: I like your art. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I like the body horror in your art. Chris: Is this part of the podcast?

1:00:27 Kayla: I don't know. From what I understand, and again, we've talked about how it's difficult to nail this down, and the definitions are supposed to be elusive, and I'm also an observer, but from what I understand, dolls can represent those who have experienced trauma and abuse and now maybe feel like a broken, empty vessel whose goal is to be posed by another, oftentimes a witch. So witches are oftentimes perpetrators of abuse or manipulation. Chris: Oh, so witches are basically like a negative force? Kayla: I wouldn't necessarily say that. I don't know. But I'm trying to avoid using those kinds of descriptors as good or bad or negative, because I feel like this space is more about just exploring what is versus passing a judgment on it. I could be wrong.

1:01:23 Chris: Interesting. Kayla: Again, I could be wrong. I'm gonna keep saying that. I probably said it ten times in the last hour. Chris: It's more about the relationships and the transformations than it is about the, like, whether it's good or bad. Kayla: And I don't mean to say, like, if somebody abuses you, it's neither good or bad. I do not think that. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: But in the context of being able to describe our experiences and our relationships through fiction, through creative writing, I don't know if, like, good and bad are necessarily used here as much I don't know. I don't know. I could be wrong again. If you're listening and you're from the empty spaces community, are witches more negative? I'm not sure. Chris: Maybe we can talk to else again after this. Kayla: Angels? I have a less firm grasp on. Not that again. My explanations are definitive in any way. From what I'm able to glean, angels may represent the self as it exists after abuse or trauma. Maybe there's a transformation there, but it differs from the experience of being a doll. So, like, angel is a transformed thing, as beautiful as it is dangerous. Like, as attached to being alive as it is detached from being alive is kind of what I've picked up.

1:02:31 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Exploring intense experiences and thoughts and ideas can be really difficult to do, especially when you're trying to look at your own trauma up close. Like, sometimes you can't see your own traumas clearly when you're staring directly at it. It's like trying to look at the sun. It's just. It's too bright. Chris: I feel that. Kayla: Bro, you gotta put those sunglasses on. And that's what symbols and metaphors are. They're like putting on some sunglasses or, like, you know, when you want to watch an eclipse, but you can't look directly the eclipse. So you make that, like, shoebox thing, and you look at the shadow of the eclipse like you come using symbols and metaphors. You can come at the examination of your trauma sideways, like you're given more space to explore it through these representative back channels than if you were to try and speak on it in plain terms.

1:03:19 Chris: Yeah, I like the eclipse thing. You can observe it without it injuring you. Kayla: Right. Oh, I like that emergent creative writing over here. Chris: I mean, I wouldn't say that I'm an empty spacer or anything. Yet. I don't know. Kayla: Processing trauma is complex. Ooh, what a. Wow. Chris: You're breaking some ground over there. Kayla: What a groundbreaking statement I just made. Trauma changes you. We know this. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Many of us desire to heal from trauma or to seek out some semblance of a recovery. Some of us wish to return to the self as it was before the trauma or to make something new that is, like, healthy and adjusted and moved on. It's not always that simple. And there is pressure in, you know, internal, external, to, quote, recover from trauma and, like, be normal. Like, there is that. That pressure exists in our world.

1:04:15 Chris: I even feel like sometimes I pressure myself, you know, like, oh, it's been. It's been a year and a half, right? That's enough time yeah, right. Kayla: And what does that mean? Chris: And then I kind of catch myself sometimes. I'm like, well enough time for what? Kayla: Yeah, like, there's no real, like, how much is enough after trauma, it's just post trauma. Chris: Right. Kayla: It's just the trauma happened and now this is my life. Chris: Right. Kayla: And not to say that you can. You can live a life, whatever. I don't wanna. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze myself here. That's why I do a podcast, so I don't have to look internally. Chris: It's so our listeners can psychoanalyze us. Kayla: Yeah, there we go. Chris: Okay. Kayla: It maybe seems for some that this pressure is actually oftentimes about, like, external comforts, not necessarily for the good of the traumatized. Like, it. It might make others uncomfortable in some societies to, like, see the result of trauma in others. And living with trauma can often make it harder for us to exist comfortably in mainstream communities. Like, you feel that pressure to not display the fact that you were fucking traumatized, right? It's tough. You might see some parallels here with queer identities. So with queer identities, there is pressure to conform, to be normal, to be reined in to, you know, not be flamboyant or not speak on your experiences as they are for you because it might make some people uncomfortable again, more for the comfort of others and for the benefit of the queer person themselves.

1:05:40 Chris: Yeah, I've never thought about that. Makes me understand a little bit. That makes me have a little more empathy, understanding there, being able to relate sometimes how I feel about my own trauma and processing it and whatever. And that's how it can feel to be queer and not like to, again, feel the pressure and the, like, not okay ness. It's not okay to not be okay or what, you know, like that. That is interesting. I have not had that perspective before. Kayla: You're welcome. Chris: Not thanking you. Kayla: There are a lot of therapeutic modalities out there for addressing trauma. So there's talk therapy and exposure therapy and EMDR and group therapy and probably act and DBT and, I don't know, united tapping multiple times. It's on and on. But because trauma is such a complex issue, talk therapy isn't necessarily the only way for us to explore these complicated feelings and emotions and thoughts and ideas that arise when we confront it. Especially when something like trauma, you know, we always say like, oh, trauma changes you. And it's such a big thing. If the only time, if you have trauma, you're interacting with it outside of the scope of your therapy. You don't just, like, sit down with your therapist for 1 hour a week and go, this was my trauma time this week.

1:07:01 Kayla: And then you go away from your therapy and you don't think about it till the next. No. You're going to be interacting with it elsewhere, right? Chris: Frequently? In some cases, yeah. Kayla: Some people find kink exploration to be therapeutic. So interesting, when I say kink, I'm referring to non conventional sexual practices, concepts, or fantasies. So kink encompasses everything from fetishes and paraphilias to. Chris: So that's like, foot fetish types. Like, that would be the most common. Like, that was your go to listen, man. I'm the resident white dude who's here to explain things to other white dudes that may be listening. Okay? You have to have a translator. Kayla: It also encompasses BDSM, which. BDSM is its own umbrella that encompasses bondage and discipline, dominance and submission, sadism and masochism practices. This is also going to encompass, like, leather and latex and knife play and role play and so much more. Like, those are just the. That's kind of scratching the surface of what kink can be delving into. These alternative sexual expressions often allow people to cultivate or restore feelings of empowerment, to build community, to physically explore tropes in real life, to engage in power exchanges, establish and build trust, and find a deeper understanding of oneself. Many people find a spiritual aspect in their kink play through the way that they connect with themselves, with their bodies, and with others. And many find ways to restore or engage in their sexuality in new or healing ways after experiencing sexual trauma.

1:08:34 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Many kinky people intersect with marginalized identities. That is, they're queer in some way, they're femme in some way and beyond. I could really spend an entire episode on this topic in particular. Like, it's a whole thing that does fall well beyond the scope of this episode and probably beyond my expertise as well. We could definitely get some experts on to talk about this, but I just. I wanted to try in this little section to establish some connection between the ways in which folks may explore things like trauma, queerness, and kink through an empty spaces lens. Chris: Okay, that was literally going to be my next question. How does it relate back to empty spaces? Kayla: Yeah, I'll go ahead and let Els answer the question from a far more informed place. Thank you, Els, it replied. The big question. And I'll say the question that I specifically asked Washington. Could you share a little bit, if it's comfortable, about how folks use empty spaces in therapeutic ways? Trauma processing kink exploration, gender and identity, expression, etcetera.

1:09:35 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Else replied, the big question. There's something I've written about before that the goal isn't necessarily recovery. I think that idea runs through a lot of empty spaces, attitudes towards trauma. There isn't any pressure to better capital B's. There isn't a push to mark each milestone. It's okay to linger, to examine, to be broken in a way that doesn't feel fixable. No one's judging. It's a rather freeing approach to take, really. I think that the lack of judgment is a necessary part of being a space that's actually able to engage with trauma in productive ways. All the metaphors and imagery and frameworks help, sure, because it can make it easier. But just being able to talk is the first step. Being able to talk without worrying which direction it's going to go in. Being able to talk about being damaged without being thrown away.

1:10:25 Chris: I really like the radical acceptance idea here. We talked about that at the very beginning. That was the first thing, actually, that penetrated my veil of not understanding, was the idea of radical acceptance. And I really like that aspect. I really like the concept of needing to let go, that this is for something, right? Kayla: So in that response, else linked to something that it's written before about the goal not necessarily being recovery. And I want to read it. I'm gonna read it for us to help kind of express what I'm trying to get at here. I just want to make sure that I'm making it clear that I'm saying that the reasons why things like kink, exploration and queerness and talking about trauma all comes up in this space is because those experiences often overlap.

1:11:20 Chris: Okay, actually, I was wondering that, and that's. Thank you for answering that. Yeah. Kayla: So I want to go ahead and read this piece of micro fiction that Els wrote and linked me to about how the goal isn't necessarily recovery. And this piece is called in the flensing wheel. The flensing wheel's teeth grind through your back, each inch of motion tearing free fresh scraps of skin and muscle. Sparks of false sensation jitter up your skin as it yanks at your nerves. The damage grows with every passing moment, and we say you must learn how to recover. Blood drips down hungry teeth, a riotous cacophony, demanding that every unruly rivulet be perfectly choreographed. Your pain is a performance and will be judged as such. Why won't you give it a happy end? Isn't that your choice to make? You're choosing this choosing to let it continue. The wheel grinds against your body broken more with every passing moment.

1:12:18 Kayla: But this is a choice. If you were stronger, you would put away these childish toys. You would become someone who is not hurt. You would become someone who isn't you. And the world would be all the better for it. It's not about that grinding wheel, that decay steadily spreading through your body. It's not about the source, the miasma, the tainted air choking your every breath. None of that matters. It's not even about the performance. Not really. It's about the light shining in all those watching eyes about dancing and uplifting dance, showing that everything is really okay. Reminding the audience that they can be strong just like you are. Cover the flensing wheel with a pretty cloth. It's still there, but at least no one has to see all those weeping calluses you've grown to shield yourself from it.

1:13:05 Kayla: At least no one has to see that the pain still continues. Chris: Yeah, man. Kayla: Yeah, man. Chris: I don't really have any. That's. That's my two word response. Kayla: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll link to that as well so that folks can read it again because. Yeah. Chris: Mm. Mm. That was. In case it wasn't clear. That was very good. Kayla: Yeah, that was a. I mean, like, I was. Chris: It just took me a minute to, like, summon words for it. Kayla: I had a hard time getting through it because it kind of made me emotional. Like, I'm a little teary. I did kind of want to make one more connection. Just going back to how Elle said that there's something like, it's cozy. That queer is default is in this community.

1:13:56 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I don't think cozy is the right word to use here, but I I feel that there's a similarity there with trauma being the default and living with trauma being the default. Chris: I was just gonna say that it's. Kayla: Not cozy, but it does make it a quote, quote unquote safe space. Chris: Right? It's a cozy bed of nails. It's a cozy little flensing wheel. Kayla: But for being an exposed nerve of trauma as default and not having any sort of, like, if I bring this up, it's, oh, no, what's gonna happen? It's like, yeah, talk about safe space, man. Chris: I just super feel that. Yep. I felt that in that story. Kayla: Right, right. I did want to read more stories to you all. It was really hard to choose what stories to read because there are many beautiful and ugly and interesting and repulsive and bloody and gory and delicious pieces of fiction that make up the empty spaces community. And if I tried to narrow it down to the best stories, like, we would be here for a very long time. Instead, I'd like to invite our listeners to explore this community for themselves. Especially if this aesthetic speaks to you, especially if you're one of our listeners who is plural or queer or traumatized, or all of the above. Again, shout out tulpas. Tulpas. I hope you're still with us.

1:15:10 Chris: I know some are. Dude, we have tulpa patrons. Kayla: We're so lucky. We really are. I will link to the list of identified empty spaces writers on Twitter for you to check out for yourselves. And if you're not sure where to start or you're feeling overwhelmed, Els linked me to a kind of weekly roundup of ES stories put together by a Twitter user named ivided into one. These weekly tea parties, as they're called, allow writers to highlight stories they're especially proud of. Chris: That's cool. Kayla: Before we head to the criteria, I want to talk a little bit about the gatekeeping in this community or the fact that there is none. The ES movement is specifically nothing gatekept. From what I understand. If something resonates with you here, then it's for you. There's no one arbiter deciding what is and is not es. Kind of like what you were talking about before. Like, what if there's something that doesn't pass the empty spaces trope check, like, that doesn't exist? It's. There's no one sitting there going, you can come in, you can't.

1:16:10 Chris: Regarding the gatekeeping, though, like, I know I asked this sort of before, but I just want to ask again, it's like, I know. And we know. I mean, we've seen online communities do have a tendency, if you will, if they are not curated, to sometimes attract or frequently attract not good things. Kayla: You're talking about how Reddit forums can be pulled to the alt right. Chris: Exactly. Like, the reasons why we do actually need to ban things like r incels and r the Donald and Donald Trump and Marjorie Taylor Greene from Twitter and Nick Fuentes from Twitter. You know, like, that's, so is there curation? And, God knows, like, everything from Facebook. But is there some sort of, like, guardrail curation against that kind of thing?

1:17:02 Kayla: I think that's kind of similar to asking, like, well, who's doing the arbiting of who's making sure that impressionist artists don't be Nazis? Chris: Oh, right. Okay. Kayla: It's not really a Reddit forum where there's, like, ahmad, who founded the group and is, you know, keeping people in and out. Chris: Right. And it's not like somebody replying to somebody else's post and then somebody replying. Kayla: To that, like, this is on Twitter. So if somebody goes full nazi, it's on the Twitter forum. It's kind of up to Twitter to, you know, work on that or remove that, which, you know, Twitter doesn't. Does not to certain degrees. You know, sometimes they'll kick nazis off. A lot of times they won't. Sometimes they'll kick transphobes up, a lot of times they won't. But in terms of just this community in and of itself. Yeah. Saying, well, how do we. How do we make sure bad actors don't get involved? I don't know if you can. The same way I don't know if you can stop people from doing impressionist paintings of, sure, nazi regalia.

1:18:05 Chris: But you help me understand it there as like a. It's like more of a collection of art with, you know, this, like, sort of, you know, fluid tropes and themes versus a, like, place for people to come, like, post, you know, Reddit posts about how Tartaria is real and. Kayla: Yeah, because, yeah, it's not a specific location. It's just a loose collective on Twitter. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: Else pointed this whole entire thing out to me with its closing thoughts. Quote, I think that there are probably as many views of what empty spaces is and answers to the questions you've asked about it as there are people in it. I don't think my own answers are any more true than those that anyone else might come up with. It really does mostly run on vibes.

1:18:51 Chris: Yes. Kayla: So good vibes only. Chris: Good vibes only. That's awesome. Kayla: Actually. No, we said weren't using good or bad. So vibes only. Chris: Fun vibe. I don't know. I don't know. Wait, though. Hold on. We can't get to the criteria yet. What the hell was that first tweet. Kayla: We'll get to that. There's something naturally ephemeral about the art that's created in empty spaces. Like, it's on Twitter. It can easily get lost in the sands of the Internet. It's harder to search for. It contains qualities of outsider art. So that's art made by those outside the mainstream and has little contact with the conventions of the established art world. It just. It makes this thing difficult to pin down, to define, to even talk about. Maybe that's why there's so little written about it now. Like, I did not find any sort of coverage, journalistic or otherwise, on it or really. Or any analysis, you know, done on it outside of the analysis that we've talked about by those who are breaking it.

1:19:46 Chris: We're breaking the story. Kayla: We're breaking the story. And, yeah, it's just. It's nothing. It's not pinned down. And given the vibes of the space, I think that maybe that's for the better. Chris: Yeah. Are we. Are we the bad guys here? Like, are we attempting to pin it down? Probably like we're the antagonists of the story. It seems like it's actually. It has won, though. It seems like empty spaces versus culture. Just weird. They won because I don't think we've really pinned it down. It just doesn't seem like it's capable of. Kayla: We said, there's this thing over here. That's what we did. We pointed at it. Chris: Right. Like, look at the cloud. Kayla: So let's go ahead and do our criteria. I have a feeling that this might be quick.

1:20:29 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Criteria number one, charismatic leader. Chris: Absolutely not. Because this is such a, like, there. Kayla: Is a couple founders where we're like, oh, we can point at eager girls and Ramadol and ads doll. Like, these are the folks wherever their initial writing in 2021 gave way to the rest of the collective. But, yeah, there's no but. Chris: Of all the things we've talked about on this show, this is one of the more ground up versus top down. Kayla: Yeah, for sure. Chris: So I would say low expected harm. Seems like that's negative, probably. Kayla: Yeah. It's like I said, expected therapeutic. Chris: Right. Expected therapy and expected, like, radical acceptance. Yeah.

1:21:12 Kayla: Presence of ritual. Chris: Oh, that's high. Kayla: That's a high one, baby. Chris: That's high. Kayla: I feel like the wazoo. I love it. Chris: I feel, like, engaged in some of that ritual by going to some of these websites that you sent me. Kayla: Niche within society. Chris: It does seem very niche. Kayla: It is very niche. We are some of the only folks talking about it outside of the actual community itself, as far as I know. Chris: I mean, flash fiction is not super niche, as you pointed out. Kayla: We're talking about empty spaces. Chris: We're talking about specifically empty spaces. Yeah. Kayla: Antifactuality don't really. Doesn't really apply n a. Yeah. Chris: Facts aren't. This isn't about critical thinking. So, like, it's about, like, discarding that sort of. Like, that's sort of. You check that in at the door on purpose.

1:21:56 Kayla: Life consumption, percentage of life consumed. Chris: I don't feel like I get a good sense of that, but even if this was something that somebody devoted a lot of time to, it doesn't seem like it's the type of thing that would, like, negatively impact other parts of someone's life. Like, I don't think you're gonna, like, quit your job and, like, lose friends. Kayla: Over this to do your flash fiction. Chris: Right, right. Dogmatic beliefs being that it is, like, very explicitly non gatekeeped. Yeah, no. Kayla: And, like, there's no real definitions of anything. Chris: Yeah, it's like, this is. This is definitely. That's the one that it scores the lowest on. And I don't think we'll ever have. Kayla: Anything that scores lower than that chain of victims.

1:22:39 Chris: There's maybe some chain, but there's definitely not victims. Like, I definitely want to tell people about it. Kayla: Does that count? Is it safe or unsafe to exit? Chris: I imagine that it is. That there's no consequence at all. It just seems like it. It seems like the type of thing where you just sort of, like. Like, lightly float into it and lightly float out. Kayla: Right. Chris: Like, without any sort of. It's like there's no gate on the way in, so probably no gate on the way out either. Kayla: I think that makes sense. So we scored high on ritual and niche and low to negative on everything else is empty spaces, occult. Chris: This is a just weird. Kayla: This is just weird. It is the best of ways.

1:23:21 Chris: It is very deliciously weird. Kayla: So now that we've done the criteria, now we've done all that. Yes. We can go revisit the initial tweet that kicked this whole thing off. Chris: Oh, thank God. Kayla: Let's see how well you understand it now. Yes, again, the tweet. You're not going to. Because you joke and you're not funny. You don't understand comedy. Chris: Wow. Wow. Someone's gatekeeping over there. Kayla: Definitely gatekeeping. Chris: Your belief I'm a white dude. So the only kind of comedy I understand is just, like, being a jerk like Anthony Jeselnik. That's the only thing I get. Kayla: The tweet was from uriririrando, also known as frog Kosarik, and it Readdez, sorry to ruin your fun, but empty spaces is not OSha compliant and needs to be shut down. You can't just have PTSD fawners lie on the floor and wait for a sadist with poor boundaries to walk all over them. Classic unsafe work environment. What if the sadist trips and falls?

1:24:11 Chris: I think I understand. Kayla: Do you get it now? Chris: 90% of it. Kayla: It's just making a joke on, like, the OSHa compliance of this, like, nebulous okay. Chris: Okay. That I got space. Kayla: Like, it's. Everybody's talking about empty spaces, but sorry to ruin your fun, that space is not OSHa compliant. They don't have. You can't just have a bunch of, like, yeah. Dolls strewn about, because then, like, what if. What if a witch comes through and trips on them? Might hurt themselves? Chris: Okay. Actually, I feel like 100%. I get that joke now. Kayla: We get it. Chris: But since I, like you said, like, lack sense of humor, I didn't laugh. Instead, I have to do things like, say that I got the joke. Kayla: That's funny. Chris: That's a funny thing. No, but I do get it. It's funny.

1:24:52 Kayla: I just want to say, I am so impressed by this usage of Twitter. It's kind of. Chris: It almost redeems the website. Kayla: I do feel like there's a fundamental shift happening in my own reality right now where it's like, Twitter is a tool that can feel so limited. Like, it's politics and fighting and dunking and current events. Like, that's what it's for. It's for tweeting about what's going on. And empty spaces just feels like a much more beautiful and expansive and innovative way to utilize this tool. Chris: Right, right. It makes me feel like actually redeeming is a pretty good word. Kayla: Like, there's people building worlds on this thing while, like, we're over here sitting, being like, oh, somebody said a political thing. Like, that's.

1:25:40 Chris: I'm very angry at the latest thing that Marjorie Taylor Greene said. Kayla: What are you doing talking about politics all day long on Twitter when I could be, like, reading about what angel girls are doing on the Hollywood overpass. Chris: Right? And it's like flash fiction, so it's just, like, bite size whenever you want, right? Kayla: So to close this out, I want to read some of the initial thoughts that kind of poured out of me at 04:30 a.m. The night that I discovered empty spaces. Chris: When you fled the bedroom, I was. Kayla: Like, what the hell is going on? And then this, like, got its hooks into me and I went, I know I have to talk about this. And, like, these are the things that I typed out that were. It was making me think and feel. So to quote myself, quote, my world is small. Maybe empty spaces is a place for people to combat that feeling by exploring the vast expanse of expression. Empty spaces expands your world. People are using Twitter in a way that is so beyond the tracks that it's laid out for us. I'm realizing now how limited my own interactions with and expression of the world, are you? I want more. People in empty spaces are giving and receiving and experiencing and expressing more. I don't write for fun or for pleasure, ever. It's always self expression.

1:26:47 Kayla: Yes, but what I write always has a business minded component to it. Whatever I write, it has the goal of being something I can sell. This makes me want to spend time writing simply for the self, for expression and pleasure, and no other reason except maybe to expand, explore. Chris: I think that's awesome. And, like, again, the flash fiction of it means that, like, you're not sitting. Like, I should write a novel. Nobody ever writes a novel. You know what I mean? There's the barrier to entry for that is so high. But anybody can just go write, you know, a few sentences. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: Like, anybody can be creative on that, like, micro level, which is, like, another awesome aspect, you know, it's like. I don't know. Yeah.

1:27:29 Kayla: Thank you to els for the work it's done on defining the space and for answering all of my questions. Thank you to Kate at Egra girls, for helping to kick off this movement and contributing to it endlessly. Thank you toll and ad dolls and Fay and at sheepwave n, and at EVrM gold and at Yuri Rando and to everyone else engaging in and exploring and excavating the world of empty spaces. I am greatly looking forward to watching it unfold. This is Kayla and this is Chris. And this has been cult or just. Chris: Empty spaces, just weird.