S4E6 - The Scheme (B&B Worm Farm Ponzi)

0:00 Kayla: Journalist Chris Bennett reported a number of other choice quotes about Greg Bradley. Bradley was a smart liar from the get go quote. In the end, there was nothing he didn't lie about. Con men are usually inveterate sociopaths. I believe Greg was a sociopath. Hey, Chris.

0:41 Chris: Hey, Kayla. Kayla: Why are you laughing? Chris: Because it's the third take, and the first two are funny. Kayla: I think you're laughing because we got Covid. Chris: Oh, yeah, that's super funny. Our patrons will already know that because the most interesting bonus content went live last night where I talked roughly this monotone about finance, and it was very interesting. Kayla: Wow, you're making it sound just so scintillating and riveting. Chris: I don't know how to make it sound better. Kayla: No. Look, man, we have Covid. At the time of you recording that, only you had Covid.

1:21 Chris: Yeah. And so were isolated. Kayla: We were separated. But now I have Covid, too, so we're just in the same room again. Chris: Yeah, but the good news is that because were separating, I had to get a substitute host, so I did that. Kayla: You did do that. Chris: So that's. You know, if you guys are curious about hearing me and a different host. Kayla: A special guest host. Chris: Special guest host. Yeah. Yeah. Then go check out our Patreon. And I think that despite not having you there to banter, I think I did an I. Kayla: You did a good job. I'm sure you did. Chris: Also, if you're interested in learning about things like present value of money and good debt versus bad debt, I figured I would like. The whole idea was that I would leverage my own sort of background with finance and business and stuff, because I could talk about that without doing a ton of research. Cause I was busy napping all week.

2:13 Kayla: Yeah. You guys, Covid is no joke. Even we're both triple vaxxed, but hoo. Chris: Boy, it kind of blows. Kayla: So if we sound a little raggedy on today's episode, that's why we're just pushing through the. And also cause we're raggedy. Speaking of today's episode, considering that we're both pretty under the weather with the pandemic illness, finally, I wanted to do a topic that kind of related to both of those things. Chris: Oh, fun. Kayla: Yeah. And as I'm saying this, I'm now realizing that we never actually introduced the show. Chris: Oh, wow. Kayla: This is culture. Just weird. Chris: It is. Kayla: That's Chris. Chris: I'm Chris. I'm a game designer and data scientist in a Covid host. Kayla: I'm Kayla. I'm also a Covid host. And a tv writer. I am sorry for my voice.

2:59 Chris: Your voice sounds fine to me. I don't know. Kayla: Okay, so like I said, I wanted to do a topic that, like, related to both of those things again, it's a loose relation. Just stick with me. We've talked, obviously, a lot about self care this season and the pandemic at large. Chris: We didn't have to do a lot of self care this week. Kayla: Yes, we did. Yes, we did. So let's do a self care topic. Chris: Yay. Kind of season theme. Kind of. Kayla: So when I sat down to think on some of the things that I have personally done to tend to my self care during the pandemic, I mean, there's a lot of things, but I landed again on composting, and I know I've talked about composting on the show before.

3:39 Chris: You have? That was a while ago. Kayla: Oh, my God. I miss composting so much. Chris: That was like. That was early pandemic. Kayla: That was the beginning stages. Chris: I miss the lovely beginning stages of the. Kayla: I miss it. I miss it. Anyway. It really. Composting helped my mental health greatly during those pre vaccine days. I got to do something productive with our increased output of food waste because were cooking all of our meals and snacks at home, so there was more food waste. It gave me a new skill to learn, and it was something physical and kind of difficult to do with my hands that got me outside. I was able to sharpen my resourcefulness because we didn't have a yard or anything similar, so I had to, like, I was composting in storage tubs, right? We helped support our local bug population. You remember that?

4:25 Chris: I think we helped create a local bug. Kayla: Yeah. But all of the bugs. Bubs. Chris: Bubs. Kayla: All of the bugs of the apartment went just into our composting tub. Chris: Oh, did they really? Kayla: Yes. Yes. Chris: I didn't even realize that. Kayla: It was great. Chris: Oh, shit. We were like the pied piper of. Kayla: Nasty little bugs, and it just felt good. We had to stop when we moved apartments, and I would like to pick it up again someday. And there's another kind of composting that I would like to try someday. A kind of, like, step up, quote unquote from the regular, like, let food decompose in a bucket and then mix it with dirt style of composting that I was doing one day. I would like to try vermicomposting. Chris: Vermicompost. I don't like to. Kayla: Do you know what that is? Chris: I don't like the prefix. You know, I don't care for it because it sounds like vermin.

5:09 Kayla: Okay. So vermicomposting is when you take organic waste and decompose it using worms. Oh, earthworms. Chris: Are worms considered vermin? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Or is it. I just. There's like, a. Kayla: They're vermi. Chris: They're vermin. Kayla: They're not vermins. They're vermese. Chris: Vermilion. Vermouth. Kayla: No. Chris: Okay. I'm not getting, like, worm. Kayla: It's wormy composting. Vermi. Verm. Wormy. Chris: Oh, like german ve used compost. Kayla: Yes. Chris: I see. Kayla: Basically, you feed a bunch of worms food, trash. They eat it up, they poop out what's called vermicast, or. Yeah, it's worm poop. And vermicast is a more nutrient rich fertilizer than whatever went into it and can be used in agriculture to grow plants, especially in organic farming.

5:54 Chris: Yeah, like, worm shit. Like, soil is basically, like, all worm shit. Kayla: It's worm shit. So vermicomposting can also treat human sewage. So, like, we could put a bunch of worms into. And it turns into nutrient rich vermicast. Chris: Really? Are you gonna poop into a bucket, kayla, and put worms in there? Kayla: One day we will do composting toilets on this show. Chris: Oh, God. Kayla: You're lucky that we don't have composting toilets. They're disgusting, and I want them. Vermicomposting is pretty gross, but it's also pretty dope. And the process of raising said worms to use in vermicomposting and then selling them is called vermiculture. Like, it's a type of farming. Chris: Wow. Sell my poo worms online. Kayla: Yeah. Well, maybe. We'll see.

6:36 Chris: So, how we're gonna monetize the podcast. Kayla: Yeah. With our branded culture. Just weird vermicomposting worms. I know folks who've done vermicomposting before. Like, my grandma was super into it for a while. Chris: Really? Kayla: Yeah. I remember her dad's side. No, my. My mom's mom. Chris: Oh. Kayla: I remember her worm bed. And she had it in, like, I could be speaking out of turn, but I think she had it in, like, an old vintage tub. Chris: Wait, I know that tub. Kayla: A claw foot tub. I think it was a different one than the one that, you know. Oh, but she had. I think it was in the old vintage claw foot tub outside. Chris: I love a good claw foot tub. Kayla: Oh, my God. Especially full of dirt. I definitely stuck my hands in the dirt, and it was just worm poop, but it was like, I remember it.

7:16 Chris: Dirt is worm poop. It's fine. Kayla: It was dirt, but it was definitely different. Like, the pure vermicast has a different. Chris: Oh, really? Kayla: Yeah. Like, you can tell my brother in law, our brother in law also worked at it for a while during the pandemic, and. Chris: Oh, yeah, I knew that. Kayla: Yeah. And he said it was, you know, pretty easy and pretty enjoyable. Like, it's a fun way to get rid of your scraps. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: And I definitely came across a lot of folks who incorporated it into their composting practice when I was learning how to compost it myself. So when, like, I was on forums or whatever, people would talk about composting and also vermicomposting. Chris: I should ask my cousin about this, because he's doing a lot of stuff with gardening. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Chris: There's, like, a shirt ton of compost. I think it's mostly, like, leaves and that stuff. But do. Do worms eat that?

8:03 Kayla: I don't know. Vermes? I don't know. Chris: Does he only eat the human food and poop? Can I do that the whole rest of this episode? Kayla: Sure. But how exactly is this a topic? Chris: I. You know what? At this point, I've, like, stopped even asking that question. I'm just. I kind of just, like, go for the ride. I'm just like. I'm assuming that this is gonna get weird somehow. Kayla: It will. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Because, my friends, one of my favorite things to do when looking for topics for the show is to pair, like, a seemingly innocuous word with the word controversy. And then, like, I plug those both into Google and wait for the magic to happen, obviously. And when you google vermiculture controversy, you're met with headlines like agriculture's darkest fraud hidden under dirt and lies.

8:57 Chris: Somebody really earned their money writing that headline today. Kayla: I want to talk about one of agriculture's most notorious Ponzi schemes from the last, well, ever. Chris: Oh, so this is an MLM episode, though. Kayla: I want to talk about the great vermiculture Ponzi scheme of 2003. Chris: Okay. Yeah. I don't even have a prediction. I don't know. I have no idea. Kayla: Now, we've talked before on the show about the inherent cultiness of Ponzi schemes, largely because, as you mentioned, they really overlap with mlms in their models. They're basically the same thing. Chris: They're very similar. Kayla: Do you want to explain what a Ponzi scheme is for our audience? And if you don't, that's okay, because I also explain it. But you're like, mister money man, so. Mister finance.

9:46 Chris: Okay, look, my understanding of Ponzi schemes without refreshing my memory, is that. So the main difference between a Ponzi scheme and a pyramid scheme is that a Ponzi scheme is just more of like a pay it, like, you know, you're robbing Peter to pay Paul type of thing, right. You don't necessarily need to, like, keep expanding the base of people to bring in cash. It's just like, you know, as long as I. So, like, I offer you some. Some crazy rate of return if you give me your money. And the only way I'm able to pay you that crazy rate of return, it's not because I'm actually earning it through some sort of, like, you know, stocks or something. It's because I'm. At the same time, I'm also borrowing money from Steve over here.

10:26 Kayla: Right. Chris: And I'm giving you Steve's money. And then the way I pay back Steve is I'm going to go borrow money from Alice, and the way I'm going to pay back Alice is I'm going to go borrow money from Jeff. And then you keep doing that. Except I skim some off the top every time. And then. My name is Bernie Madoff. Kayla: Mister Madoff. So, yes, that's basically my understanding. I have a little bit of a researched description. So a Ponzi scheme is a type of fraud that brings investors in who pay into what they believe is a legitimate business or investing situation, and then their investments are paid to earlier investors. There's no legitimate business activity, just new people being recruited and their money going to early recruits who expect returns.

11:11 Chris: Yeah. Which is. I mean, that's essentially what's happening in a pyramid scheme, too. Kayla: Right? Chris: It's just in a pyramid scheme, you also have that structure of the later generations of rubes paying into the earlier generations. There's more of them. So you have a widening base of people. Kayla: I think Ponzi schemes include a widening base, do they? Chris: I think it actually might be one of those things where it's like. Kayla: It definitely looks like a pyramid. Chris: I think it's like all pyramid schemes are Ponzi schemes, but not all Ponzi schemes are pyramid schemes. Kayla: Something like that. Chris: I think it's one of those. Kayla: Yeah. From Wikipedia, quote, a Ponzi scheme can maintain the illusion of a sustainable business as long as new investors contribute new funds and as long as most of the investors do not demand full repayment and still believe in the non existent assets they are purported to own. End quote.

11:57 Chris: Bitcoin. Kayla: Generally. Yeah. Generally, those recruited believe it's a real thing and they are unaware the money involved only comes from further down recruits. So, again, the structure ends up looking similar to our old friend the pyramid. And like you mentioned, the most recent high profile Ponzi scheme where listeners might recognize is the one perpetrated by Bernie Madoff. Discovered in 2008, his was an investment scam that grew to become the largest Ponzi scheme in history. Do you want to guess how much it was worth? Chris: I listened to a whole podcast thingy. It was either a podcast or an audiobook. I don't remember what it was, though. Kayla: $65 billion. Chris: Damn.

12:37 Kayla: Remember he died. Chris: Oh, he did? Kayla: Yeah, he tried. Chris: What's rip? But, like, good riddance, Pip. Kayla: I don't know. Ponzi schemes eventually become unsustainable and crash, much like mlms, leading to a lot of people who invested, losing all of their money. So Ponzi schemes are bad, terrible criminal endeavors. Like, don't do one. Chris: Yeah, it's hardcore fraud. Kayla: They usually rely on a charismatic leader at the top who convince followers to invest in financial systems that seem too good to be true. And because those followers invest so much money, they become so bought into the scam, they are in denial of the warning signs. So it's like, charismatic leader, chain of victims, expected harm, anti factuality. Like, Ponzi schemes. Check a lot of the culture. Just weird criteria boxes.

13:26 Chris: So one of the. I don't know if this guy was a victim or if he ended up making off with money, because I don't. It's been a while since I've listened to the Bernie Madoff thing, but one of my. The thing. One of the things that I remember from that story is how there was, like. Because he had, like, really rich clients. Like, he had some of the clients. Kayla: And big Wall street people and. Chris: Oh, yeah. Some of them were, like, big and then. And, you know, and, like. Like, secret rich, you know, type people. You don't even know that. Kayla: So. Chris: Fucking richest. Rothschild, maybe? Probably. And as the story goes, I guess, like, one of these guys, like, I'm just sort of speaking to your point here about, like, people buying in and being, like, a culty atmosphere, I guess. This guy never wanted to have.

14:13 Kayla: A. Chris: Trade, a stock trade where he lost money. Like, he never. Like, he had this thing where he's like, I only ever have stock trades where I make money, where I buy low and sell high. I've never bought high and sold low, and I'm sure as hell gonna not start now. Or, like, it was. Kayla: That's not how it works. Chris: I know. It was like how I think a. Kayla: Lot of people have that in their heads, though. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Like, I think that a lot of people that get involved in, like, real estate and property think that, like, oh, this is an investment. That's like a sure thing. When it's like, no, it's not. Chris: Right. Nothing's a sure thing sure. Kayla: It's. It's still like investment. Chris: There are some things that are more sure things than others, and I. Stock isn't one of those. Kayla: It's volatile. It goes up and down like everybody knows.

14:55 Chris: I got the impression that it was very much like one of those rich people or of invincibility type things. It's like, I'm rich. I only make money on my stock. This really warped reality. So that's why I bring it up as the warped reality of. Kayla: Yes. And apparently Ponzi schemes are not just for Richie Rich Wall street types like that. Sometimes they involve worms and worm poop. Chris: Did the worms get defrauded? Kayla: Oh, no, the worms all got defrauded. There's a class action lawsuit from the charismatic leader. Chris: Like a really. Kayla: It's a big earthworm. Chris: Like a really sexy worm. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Kayla: No. Much of my research today comes from a 2017 article by journalist Chris Bennett. And I also referred to Atlas Obscura, the Herald Tribune, oklahoman.com, comma, wave, three.com, comma, the New Yorker, and more. So let's dig in like a wor.

15:46 Chris: That's good. Kayla: Farming and agriculture is a complex, complicated endeavor. It is a 100 billion plus dollar industry, and with that much money and with that much business, you know that there are scammers and schemers looking to turn a profit around every corner. Chris: Of course. Kayla: In 1998, a man named Greg Bradley and his wife Lynn founded B and B worm Farm in Meechler, Oklahoma. The company sold worm contracts to growers. Essentially, growers could buy a group of starter worms from B and B, as well as a grower's manual worm harvesting equipment, and they would have access to a help line, like, learn how to be a worm farmer. Chris: That sounds like a cool business model. Kayla: Yeah. The growers would grow and breed said worms, and the contract stipulated that B and B would buy back all the worms that the growers produced for, like, seven to nine a pound.

16:36 Chris: I. Kayla: So the idea was that, like, B and B worm farm had end user clients that required large, needed large volumes of waste eating worms. So he would contract out these growers to build up the worm population, buy back the worms, and sell it to these end user clients. Chris: So the end user clients were people that had waste disposal needs. Kayla: We'll get to that. But, yes, that's the idea. Like, people, like companies organizations that had large scale waste that needed to be processed. Chris: They needed a shit ton of worms. Kayla: They needed a shit ton of worms. So the initial contract for the growers ranged from, like, $15,000 for 100,000 worms, $60,000 for one and a half million worms, and like these.

17:22 Chris: Oh, my God, that's a lot of worms. Kayla: These contracts went, like, all the way up to $100,000 and more. Chris: Wow. Kayla: And it was sold as a surefire investment for the growers. Like, invest in your worm farm now, and in a year when you've bred hundreds of thousands or millions of more worms, you'll sell them back to me, you'll make a huge return on your investment. Everybody's going to make a lot of money here. And with Greg Bradley's end user clients always in demand, always in the market for high volumes of worms, there's no way this could fail. Chris: Right? Okay, so there's two aspects. There's the end user clients with waste disposal needs, and then there's also folks that. That b and B will send their worms. Will send worms to as, like a. Like a seed pack.

18:07 Kayla: Yes. Chris: And then they will take that seed pack of worms and over the course of a year, turn it into shit ton of worms. Kayla: Yes. Chris: And then those worms go back to b and B, where they pull them all together and sell them to fucking conagra, whoever needs them. Kayla: Correct. Okay, so that all makes sense. Chris: Yes. Kayla: Okay, let's keep going. Greg Bradley had trained in the art of vermiculture at a prior company, Vermitrade, so he had the chops to back up his claims, like, he knew how to raise these worms. The company first advertised in magazines and newspapers, obviously on the Internet, in the early days via word of mouth. And like, they steadily grew, more and more farmers across the south central and southeastern United States bought worm contracts and took their girl kits home, like, ready to get to work. But it wasn't big enough for Bradley yet. Like, he. He knew. He. He knew he had a surefire thing here. He needed something to take it to the next level. Like, he needed star power.

18:57 Chris: He needed a loan from a Rothschild bank. Kayla: No. He needed worm. Star power. Chris: Worm star power. What's worm star power? Earthworm, Jim. Kayla: It was Earthworm, Jim. No. Enter Kelly Slocum. Kelly Slocum is a self made worm master. She is sharply educated in all things vermicomposting and well known in the community for her intelligence, her speaking ability, and her evangelizing about all things worm. So while Greg Bradley was, like, decent, smooth talking salesman, he needed, like, legitimization to level up. And so in 2001, this is, like, about three years after he started, headed to Slocum's home state of Washington to pitch her on his company and get her involved.

19:40 Chris: So she's like a worm angelist worm. I was gonna say worm celebrity. But yours is better. Kayla: She's a worm celebrity. Chris: Yes. So in the worming, community warming world. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Like, people, you know, have. Kayla: People knew and trust. Chris: People knew and trusted who this person was. I was gonna say worm zine, because I don't, I guess. What was this? Okay, now there's the Internet. Kayla: So there's the Internet. Chris: People were doing what blogs? I don't even know. Kayla: Yes. Usenet. I don't know. Quote. This is from Kelly Slocum. I've heard Greg described as charismatic, but I found him to be an average joe that misused words and stretched his vocabulary too far. Chris: That is charismatic.

20:20 Kayla: Nothing about him stood out, but nothing raised red flags. I was skeptical, but the incredible potential pulled me in and overrode my concerns. Slocum was particularly impressed by Bradley's end user buyers. Traditionally, in vermiculture, like, that's where the rub lies. You can grow a bunch of waste eating worms, but can you find a client who needs them, especially at this level of volume? Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Kayla: According to Bradley, he had a number of buyers keeping b and b going, and slocum was impressed enough. Like, they've been going for three years. People are buying in. People are getting paid. Like, she got on board, okay. And business boomed. Like, with such a reputable figure in the vermiculture world now acting as the face for b and b, the company expanded at breakneck speeds. So less than a year later, B and B had distribution centers set up in twelve states and hundreds, if not thousands, of farmers clamoring to get in on the deal. So the distribution centers were where the farmers could then, like, take their worms to be processed, take their worms, process the worms, and be paid.

21:24 Chris: I'm assuming that they go all into one big worm bucket, and then that worm bucket goes to these end user clients, these mysterious. Kayla: It's like, you take your worms, you bring your worms and all their dirt, they get put into a machine that separates the worms from the dirt. The worms get weighed, and then you get paid. You get paid, like, seven to nine a pound per pound of worm. Chris: Doesn't sound so bad. Kayla: The article in the Daily Scoop by Chris Bennett refers to Bradley as a pied piper and a star pied piper of worms, making it clear that he had the ability to turn even the sincerest of doubters into true believers. One farmer, Floyd Warrick, is quoted as saying, I met him face to face, and I told him I didn't believe what he was saying about worms. Bradley boldly said, if you don't believe it, then I don't want you as a customer.

22:11 Chris: Oh, classic. Kayla: Weyrich then bought 300 pounds of worms and built over 100 vermiculture boxes. Weyrich even sold back worms he produced for $8 a pound. Like, everything seemed to be going great. Chris: Yeah, this seems like it's all going. Kayla: I want to get in on this. Chris: So far, so good, man. Kayla: And that was, in large part, again, to Bradley's connections to end user buyers. Right, but who were these buyers, pray tell? Chris: That's exactly what I'm wondering. Kayla: Well, according to Bradley, he had connections to composting companies and recycling plants across the south, so big organizations that could use these worms. But his biggest get was the country of Sierra Leone.

22:51 Chris: So. Kayla: Wait, what? Yeah, the entire country of Sierra Leone. Chris: They all just need a lot of worms there. Kayla: He told Kelly Slocum that Sierra Leone was setting up a countrywide waste management project, and B would supply the millions of worms they needed. Chris: That is so genius. Kayla: Whole country. The government of this country needs all these worms. Chris: But, like, the way he presented it, though, like, at first, it sounds absurd, but actually, when he. Kayla: Where else is Sierra Leone gonna get their worms? Chris: Yeah, and the way you said it, too, it's not like Sierra Leone needs worms. It's like Sierra Leone has a waste management project. Government projects are big. There's always big bids. Kayla: Yeah, Sierra Leone. Bradley sent one of his associates across the ocean to take pictures of progress, and Kelly did find it odd. Kelly Slocum did find it odd that the photos were of buildings and people in Sierra Leone. Nothing official, nothing wormy. Nothing wormy. No processing plants or whatever. But when Bradley got her on a conference call with the Sierra Leone minister of agriculture, she was convinced. Whoa. The Sierra Leone minister of agriculture was like, yes, we need these worms from BNB. We're setting up this whole thing. It's gonna affix our soil. We're gonna be able to feed the whole country. It's gonna be great.

24:05 Chris: Okay, so, I know I'm gonna get. We'll get to that. This question, but was that person on the phone a actually, Sierra Leone's? Agricultural minister who was in on the deal. B, just a fake accomplice that. Kayla: I think it was Ashton Kutcher. I think this was an episode of punkt, right? Chris: Was it Ashton Kutcher? Or C, was it. I guess it could be the agricultural minister who thinks it's real, too. Kayla: Right? Right? Chris: I don't know. Kayla: We will get to that. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Okay, so by this point, B and B had growers in 40 states. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: That's almost the entire country. Chris: Huh. Kayla: And a real life buyer for everything that they could produce. Growers were getting paid. Kelly Slocum was keynoting vermiculture conferences and holding growing seminars. Life was good.

24:56 Chris: Good job, man. The end. Kayla: Until it wasn't. Chris: Yeah. That's how Ponzi schemes tend to. Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: In 2002, worm growers who had been with B and B for a few years started experiencing payment delays when they would deliver their worms. Chris: I've heard this story before. Kayla: When farmers would reach out to Bradley directly, he stopped returning their calls. Anxiety bloomed across the country as glowers demanded their contractual return on investment and instead received nothing. Chris: Yeah. Yeah, this tracks. Kayla: As the most prominent board member, Kelly Slocum began asking hard hitting questions like, what's happening? Where's the money? What's going on? But Bradley continued to duck. And I think he even got, like, a bunch of amish people in on this. Oh, I think there was a bunch of amish grower contractors.

25:43 Chris: I mean, that makes sense. They do a lot of farming. Kayla: They do a lot of farming. And I think it's like, this is good for people who, like, you know, how sometimes farming is seasonal, and sometimes you have, like, extra space that you can't be using for farming at that time. Or maybe all of your pigs got a blight or something, and, you know, you just have, like, a bunch of extra room. Like, this is a great. It seemed like this is a great way to kind of, like, get some control. I can do these worms. I'm gonna get my return on investment back. It's like, farming is kind of risky in a lot of ways. This seemed like not a risk. Chris: Right? Right. Or. Yeah, a way to, like, mitigate it. Yeah. Kayla: Then one day, Kelly Slocum received an email she was not supposed to see.

26:23 Chris: I love those emails. Kayla: It exposed Bradley's end user buyers as nothing but lies. Slocum was accidentally cc'd on an email between Bradley and some inner circle associates, I think just like his friends. Chris: Okay, so he wasn't alone in perpetrating this crime. He had. Kayla: Nah, it was, like, him and some buddies, they were discussing how the Sierra Leone situation was a ruse, like, they were falsifying shipments to the country and not a single worm had ever crossed the border. Like, there was no deal in Africa. And Bradley was working overtime to keep that a secret. Chris: Mm mm. Kayla: So Kelly Slocum reads this over and realizes, oh, shit. All of those, like, initial doubts. I had a. Those were correct. I have been had. This is disgusting. We're defrauding people.

27:08 Chris: Did she. She didn't lose. Is this, like, just a reputation? Cause she didn't, like, buy into it. Kayla: She did not buy into it, okay? This person didn't know. She's not a farmer. She was just, like, a board member. Chris: Okay, okay. Kayla: She wrote up a resignation email that she was, like, gonna send it out to the b and b grower base to be like, this is fucked. I'm out. Had a girl, but Bradley beat her to the punch. Apparently he noticed that she had been included in the emails after the fact, and he sent his own blast out to the grower base. Chris: Smart. Kayla: Stating that Slocum had been fired for embezzlement. Chris: Oh, my God. Oh, I thought you were gonna be like, he sent his own email, you know, explaining the situation or whatever. Kayla: No, he just besmirched her. Yeah, he was like, she appropriated company funds. She and her husband bought a bunch of cars. They bought a bunch of rolexes. They're out of here. And there's, like, sick attempt to discredit her. Now if she goes, like, well, he's a liar, she looks hard.

28:04 Chris: The well is poisoned. Kayla: Yeah, she doesn't look reputable anymore. With Kelly out of the picture, Bradley needed to scrounge up a new legitimizing face of the company, and somehow he managed to convince Oklahoma congressman Wes Watkins of B B's mission. And Wes representative Wes Watkins joined the board. Chris: Wait, so what happened to. To Kelly? Did she, like, hold that thought? Kayla: Okay, for now, she's in a holding pattern. Chris: Okay, okay. Kayla: She's over here. She will come back. So we've got Mister Watkins now taking her place. Like, Mister Watkins was described as a true believer in b and in Bradley himself. And he's even quoted as saying that the company was going to solve world hunger.

28:47 Chris: Yeah, this all tracks with the cultiness for sure. Kayla: A farmer interviewed for the Daily Scoop remembered him saying, quote, we're sending worm fertilizer to Africa and it's going to make the ground productive and save people. With this new face in place, Bradley continued to try and grow the business, but his failure to pay his growers really did catch up with him. You can get as many faces as you want, but if you can't pay. Chris: Your people right, at some point. Yeah. Kayla: On April 14, 2003, the Oklahoma government petitioned for a permanent injunction against b and B. Apparently, a year earlier, Oklahoma had placed a cease and desist order on new grower contracts. Smelling the. Smelling the wormy poop, the whiffs of the scam. Yeah, smelling the whiffs of the wormy poop. But Bradley ignored it. And between August 13, 2002, and April 14, 2003, they sold $14,078,000 worth of new contracts.

29:40 Chris: Oh, my God. That's big money. Kayla: Yikes. Yeah, it's very big money. What's worse, though, is that Oklahoma also discovered that b and B was $23 million in debt. Not exactly a good position for a company to be in when they've got thousands of growers showing up to collect on their investments and sell back millions of worms. Chris: Oh, so that's debt beyond what they owe to their contractors. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Wow. Kayla: No good. Chris: So, in the parlance of the Patreon content, that's bad debt. Kayla: That is bad debt. You bad. In Kentucky alone, 800 growers bought into contracts with b and B. And with that huge number of farmers now expecting payouts, the state government stepped in. So they sought to involve. The government sought to involve itself investigation of the company to protect its citizens.

30:32 Chris: So Oklahoma did, and now Kentucky did as well. Kayla: Correct. Apparently, Bradley had capitalized on a trend of the state's farmers moving away from tobacco growing. So, like, kind of how you and I talked about, sometimes farmers will phase things in and out. And so there was a movement away from tobacco growing, and many of these farmers turned to b and b as like, well, I'll do worm farming then. But now every grower contract was defaulting. When farmers tried to drop their hundred, like, farmers would go. They would drop their hundreds of pounds of worms off of the distribution centers, and they would be turned away. It would just be like, go home. Take your worms home. There's nothing here for you. There's no money. No one was getting paid. Chris: How much did they pay for the worm kits? Kayla: It was anywhere from 15,000 to 100,000 plus.

31:14 Chris: Oh. Oh, that's substantial. Kayla: Yes. Chris: That's not a small number. Kayla: No. These farmers were now facing earth shattering debt with no recourse. Chris: Oh, that's a big number. Kayla: Yes. Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: So with Kelly Slocum, like, knowing about the shady dealings going on with hordes of farmers bearing down on him with pitchforks and with multiple states investigating him. Like, Greg Bradley was under immense pressure. Just imagine for a moment what this would feel like. Your walls are crashing. Your billion dollar walls are crashing down. Chris: That was one of the things I was wondering when I was listening to the Bernie Madoff thing. Sure. Their brains must just work differently where they shrug the pressure off.

31:59 Kayla: How do they not all have heart attacks? Chris: I don't know. I think that they just. Kayla: A lot of people call this guy a sociopath. Chris: Yeah. I think that's what it is. I hate to do that. I hate to pull the sociopath card here. Kayla: There's something different about the way this brain works. Chris: Can you not collapse into a gibbering mess unless you truly, honestly do not give any shits? Kayla: Right? I mean, yeah, I can't imagine it either. So it's like I'm just picturing this guy. I'm picturing a normal guy. So I'm picturing somebody being like, oh, no, what do I do? My brilliant business plan is fucked up. Why has the bottom fallen out so violently? How am I gonna pay back all of these farmers if me, myself, and millions of dollars in debt? Like, what am I gonna do?

32:45 Chris: Is that what B and B stands for? Brilliant business. Kayla: Brilliant business. So what do you think Greg Bradley did? Chris: I don't know. Based on the way you just presented that whole thing, I'm assuming he's gonna do something really dastardly or he's gonna be two middle fingers and escapes to Sierra Leone or something. I don't know. Kayla: He died. Chris: Oh, he died. Kayla: Oh, Greg Bradley died. Chris: Okay. Yeah, that's one way to get out. Kayla: Of your debts at the height of the crescendo at age 40. At age 40, Bradley died of an infection in an Oklahoma hospital. The obituary touted b and B, calling it a, quote, multi million dollar company, and stating that, quote, b and B has become the largest grower of earthworms in the world.

33:26 Chris: Did they not get the memo? Kayla: The company currently has more than 2400 growers in 43 states. There are also 20 distribution centers that support these growers, and the company has recently began expanding internationally. Bradley was cremated and buried quickly. Chris: Did the worms get him? Kayla: And he was fed to the worms. The investigations into b and B now fell on Bradley's wife, Lynn, who took control of the company. Did she know? Chris: Was she in the inner circle? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Or was this. Kayla: I really don't. Chris: Cause, like, holy shit, man. Kayla: I think that I'm gonna assume that she did. Chris: I hope so. Kayla: I think that she did. I actually. I really do think that she did. We can talk about it in a second. So, Tennessee added itself to the list of state governments looking into the company, and by May 2003, at least ten states were suing or investigating b and B company went bankrupt, obviously, and investigations just kind of petered out, like, largely due to the fact that, like, the person of interest died, was gone.

34:25 Chris: But, I mean, the organization was still around. I guess the organization. Kayla: They're gone now, too. Chris: Okay. There's nothing else to. They went away to steal from the company. That is millions of dollars in debt. Kayla: Yeah. What can you do? Chris: Okay. Kayla: In the meantime, however, the investigations turned up quite a few troubling tidbits about b and b worm farm. Chris: Oh. Kayla: In its five years, the company had raked in around $25 million in grower contracts. $25 million. Selling worms to people. Chris: That's a lot of worms. Kayla: That money funded a lavish lifestyle for Greg and Lynn Bradley and also supported a family member's auto parts business and also funded an adult entertainment company in Las Vegas.

35:09 Chris: What. What is this guy? Kayla: It seemed like maybe Greg Bradley wasn't just, like, a bad businessman. He was just a bad man. Like, he was like, I'm gonna steal all these farmers monies so that I. Chris: Can, like, my porn. Kayla: Porn and, like, give my family dollars. Chris: What the fuck, dude? Yeah, that's. That's some sociopath. Kayla: Yeah. Turns out Bradley had been slapped with a decease and desist in regards to vermiculture before. Oh, yeah. I remember in the beginning, we're like, oh, he worked for a company called Vermitrade, and then he know. He knew the ropes. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Yeah. So he. Both Iowa and Nebraska cease and desisted him when. When he was. When he was at Vermi trade. Presumably, Bradley had already been, like. He'd been shady from the beginning. Chris: Right. This is the other thing I don't get is it seems like we continuously run into these guys where it's like, some. Like. It's like, yeah, this is a shady dude. And then they'll, like, you know, skip town or whatever and go start something somewhere else, and, like, people will do exactly zero due diligence.

36:02 Kayla: Yep. Chris: And they just get to. It's. It's like these, like, traveling, like shucksters. Kayla: Yeah. He's like a snake oil salesman. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: He's like an old timey guy. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: In that regard, like, going around the country, being like, step right up and buy a worm, and then you'll be wealthy beyond your wildest dreams. Chris: We have the magic worms head b. Kayla: And B. I mean, they did. It worked for some people at the. Chris: Beginning, and then that's how Ponzi schemes work. Kayla. Kayla: So speaking of Ponzi scheme, there were issues with the company's structure. Remember how it worked? So Bradley would sell a small parcel of worms to a grower, who would then take those worms and breed them into a larger colony of worms over a year or so, and then they'd sell those worms back to Bradley to get sent to the end user. Okay. Yeah. Well, like a pyramid scheme. That shit just doesn't work. The math don't math.

36:54 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Redworms. Chris: Was there even any end user at all? Kayla: We'll get to that. Okay, redworms hatch, like, every one to two months. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And they breed exponentially, right? Chris: Right, okay. Kayla: Exponentially. We all know what that word means. Now, living in COVID pandemic, Peter Bogdanov, the owner of Vermico, which is supposedly an ethical worm growing business, says, quote, if Bradley's math was correct, the world would have been awash in worms in no time. It's kind of like how we've talked about mlms before. It's like the recruiting structure. It exceeds the amount of people on earth. Chris: Right. And it doesn't take that long to get there because of the exponential growth. Yeah, that's very similar sounding.

37:34 Kayla: With the exponential growth of these worms, like, there's not going to be an end user client for this amount of worms. Chris: We're just gonna have a giant ball of worms. We're all walking around. Kayla: They're gonna eat us all. They're gonna take over everything. It kinda sounds like a nightmare. That many worms. Chris: Wormworld. Kayla: Wormworld. I don't like it. I don't think we should be doing this. And what about those end user clients that you were just asking me about? It's my guess Bradley had such unique relationships with. Chris: Because this is a Ponzi scheme. My guess is they didn't exist. Why would you think that worms from Farmer John were just going to farmer Bill when he bought a new contract? Kayla: Why would you think that?

38:15 Chris: I'm just speculating. Kayla: Okay, so we know that Sierra Leone was false, right? Like, there was nothing going on with Sierra Leone. I think he did really send somebody there to take pictures, but that's why the pictures were just of, like, buildings and people and not like, anything real, right. Chris: It's like tourist photos. Kayla: Remember how Kelly Slocum got on a phone call with the Sierra Leone minister of agriculture? Chris: Yes. Kayla: Yeah, that was just fake. Chris: So it was just like, that was Ashton Kutcher. Kayla: It was, yeah. Bradley recruited someone, maybe someone from his inner circle to like, pretend to be that person to keep Kelly on the hook, to keep the fraud going. Literally being like, I'm the Sierra Leone minister of agriculture. We need your worms, Kelly Slocum. Only you can save Africa.

38:58 Chris: So just some dude on the phone just being like, hello? Yeah, my name is Mister Wormhouse. No, Mister Leone. Kayla: Mister Leone. I'm Sierra Leone. Yeah. So instead of worms going to end user clients. Yeah, it's just as you predicted. They were going to new recruits. Chris: Yeah, of course. And where were all the excess worms going so that we don't, like, become wormworld? Kayla: I don't know. Well, worms will die if you don't feed them, so presumably. Chris: Okay, so he just like, dumped worms into it. Kayla: Well, before the company fell apart, growers would buy the worms, sell them back to Bradley. He would break them down into smaller parcels and then sell those to new growers. So as long as he had enough growers buying those little parcels, he could get rid of the worms.

39:40 Chris: You see, I've seen this. This is shaped like a pyramid. Kayla: Yeah. That structure is destined to crumble eventually. People are not going to buy your fucking worms. There's only so many farmers in the. Chris: World and you won't be able to sustain giving the money back because you don't have any income coming in from these non existent end users. Kayla: Right. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: As journalist Chris Bennett put it, quote, bradley was using Peter's worms to pay Paul. Yeah, Peter worms. But, yeah, it's just, it really seems to me, and we can talk about motivation a little bit, but it really seems to me that this guy was just like trying to make money. Like, obviously this is going to crack. This is like, I don't think this guy was a true believer. You know what I mean?

40:23 Chris: Yeah. Based on his other advantages, I think. Kayla: That he was like, bulk a bunch of people out of money worms. And then the thing. Chris: Why, I assume his plan was probably like, you know, skip town again. Kayla: Right. Chris: But, yeah, that's, that seems right to me. Based on all the other stuff he said he was doing and like, just like, how non viable this was and how much debt the company was in, it seems like his plan was to use a company to siphon money to his personal account. Kayla: To him, to his wife, to his family members, to his porn. Cool. Chris: And then, yeah, shut off the company. Kayla: Yeah, and, yeah, just declare bankruptcy and get out of there. You don't need to pay these farmers back, right, exactly. Oh, my God. Poor farmers leave farmers alone. I come from farmers. They're good people generally.

41:09 Chris: Well, they don't deserve to be defrauded. Kayla: No. No, they really don't. So what recourse did these farmers have now that b and B had gone belly up and Bradley was dead? And I don't mean to be laughing about this, like, guy's death, but also, I mean, fuck this guy. Yeah. It's just the fact that he died is so crazy to me. Maybe the stress did get to him. Like, maybe that's what it. Maybe the stress really did get to him. Chris: Maybe. Maybe he's like, time's up, man. And, like, the stress went through the roof and then he got an infection and died. Kayla: Died because stress can do that to your. Like, stress can make your body have a harder time healing. Like, is not healthy for the body. But, yeah, these farmers didn't really have much recourse after all.

41:51 Chris: Yeah, that was my guess. Because usually that's the case with these types of things. Kayla: Thousands of farmers lost savings, lost mortgages, had to scrounge and scrimp to not fall into bankruptcy themselves. Chris: Yay. Kayla: Many did. Remember we talked about it. But these grower contracts could go up to $100,000 at a time and sometimes even higher. Some people were in debt or went, were invested for like $160,000 and more. Like, these are huge amounts of money, especially when we're talking about. This is 2003, and this is in south central and southeastern United States. This is also, like. This was in Florida. This was like 43 states. Chris: Yeah, that's a lot of states have some farming communities. Yeah.

42:33 Kayla: These 2400 farmers were just forced to swallow the loss. Fuck Greg Bradley. Chris: Yeah, fuck that guy. Kayla: The debacle also cost Kelly Slocum her reputation. Chris: I mean, can't disagree with what her losing a reputation for that. Like, it sucks. Kayla: Right. But she doesn't deserve to lose her reputation about embezzlement. Like, she had that whole. Embezzlement. Chris: Oh, no, no. Of course not. No, no. I just meant, like, probably should have done some due diligence on this guy. Kayla: Yeah. So it was, first it was she got smeared by Bradley in that embezzlement email and then. Which is horseshit by association with b and B when, you know, when it turned out to be the work of a con man. Before Bradley died, Slocum traveled to farmers to help answer questions and, like, assuage fears. I have a quote from her. Quote. I went to these farms and met the loveliest of people. They looked me in the eye and asked, can you tell us if this is a scam? I looked back and told them, no way. And if I ever get wind of anything crooked, I will absolutely let you know. It was hubris to think I could spot a scam. And she talks about how, like, professionally, she was forgiven, essentially, by the worm community, but she still harbors a lot of guilt over.

43:48 Kayla: I got people involved in this. I helped get people hurt, and I helped financially ruin people because I thought I could spot a scam, and I couldn't. That sucks. Even when I have all of this knowledge, I ignored those doubts because it looked good to me. Chris: Man, that is super on theme with the show, too, because it's like the whole, no matter how smart you are, and in this case, it's not even just smart. It's like, no matter how much specific domain knowledge you have, you can still be taken in by things that play to your emotions. I get. I'm assuming that's what happened with her. Kayla: I. Right. But even with all of that, some true believers remained.

44:29 Chris: Oh, God. That always happens. And it's always so batshit. Kayla: I know. Chris: Like, it's always so batshit that, like, after, like, dexiom blows up, there's still people. You know, there's still the fucking, like, Nikki Klein's out there that are, like, still true believers. Like, it's so insane to me. Kayla: Representative Wes Watkins spoke Greg Bradley's funeral. Still fully invested in the mission of b and B worm farm. Like, we're gonna save the world. We're gonna prevent world hunger. We're gonna clean up Africa. And more than 50 b and B contracted growers from all over the country attended the funeral. People drove hundreds and hundreds of miles to go to his funeral. Like, somehow maintaining faith in this Ponzi scheme.

45:09 Chris: Motivated reasoning. Kayla: Yeah. Some people believe the circumstances of Bradley's death to be odd. Chris: Oh, is this, like, did the Clinton mafia get him? Kayla: How convenient that he shuffled off this mortal coil right at the exact moment his pyramid scheme came crashing down, when he would need to pay up, when he was facing jail time. Chris: I mean, it's probably inconvenient, depending on how you view it, but, I mean, for him, the timing is weird. Kayla: The reverend who held his funeral service claims he had visited Bradley in the hospital, and he seemed perfectly healthy, like, someone who was about to be discharged. Like, this is a perfectly healthy 40 year old man. Like, he's not dying. The story around his infection was said to be from a spider bite, then from pneumonia. Growers weren't sure what to believe.

45:55 Chris: Was it the worms? Kayla: But to one farmer, it was clear Bradley ain't dead. Cremation. I think he went to Mexico with millions of dollars belonging to farmers. Chris: I was gonna ask that at the time. Like, did he fake his death? Cause this is totally a fake. Kayla: Your own type of thing. I know I can't. I. Occam's razor. He probably died of stress. Chris: Sure. Kayla: But I'm more inclined to believe that this was his final scam. Chris: Yeah. So here's what we've talked about. Kayla: He left his wife to pick up the pieces. Chris: Right. We've talked about this on the show before. So there's sort of two different things we can do here. We can say, based on all available evidence, the man is truly dead.

46:38 Kayla: Like, there's records of his death. Chris: Yeah, there's records of his death. Occam. Not just Occam's razor, but also, like, preponderance of evidence and, you know, and whatever. Like, he's. He is dead. However, if I go here and label my thoughts speculation, it's. There's definitely. I could definitely speculate that there are reasons that he wouldn't be. Kayla: When I read that he died, I was like, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, sure. He did. Chris: It definitely triggers your conspiratorial thinking. Kayla: Yes, yes. And, like, a lot of these farmers believe that, too. And I think when you. When you behave like a con man in every facet of your life, like, it's not. It's kind of hard to believe that you wouldn't behave like a con man in your death.

47:23 Chris: Yeah. And the convenience of the timing and all that, like, combined with, you know, the history of conning. Kayla: Right. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Journalist Chris Bennett reported a number of other choice quotes about Greg Bradley. Bradley was a smart liar from the get go. In the end, there was nothing he didn't lie about. Con men are usually inveterate sociopaths. I believe Greg was a sociopath. Worms or other means he was going to take people's money. He sucked in energy and accolades from the crowd and loved being loved. His lies turned to hell in a handbasket for everyone below. I think his plan right from the beginning was to bleed as much money as possible from growers and then disappear. That last quote is from Kelly Slocum, who worked very closely with this man.

48:10 Chris: Was that before or after he died? Kayla: The quote? Yeah, it's right after. Chris: Okay, so is she on team disappeared? Kayla: I think that she's saying that. I think that she's not speculating about if he died or not, but that his plan went accordingly. Chris: Right. Is that he just. He was going to disappear. He was, one way or the other. Kayla: Disappear one way or the other. That's what I take that quote to mean. The moral to this story, like all stories involving fraud and cons and Ponzi schemes and pyramid structures and financial hope and charismatic business leaders, is that this can happen again. Just in 2015, a man named James Lahorn was arrested and sentenced to 15 years in prison for fraud involving tomatoes.

48:55 Chris: Tomato fraud. Kayla: After he'd already set up a fraud. Real worm farm business. Chris: Whoa, whoa. This could happen again in the same. Kayla: It had happened history before in vermiculture, before Greg Bradley. Chris: Wait, what? Kayla: It's like a cyclical thing. It, like, happens. Chris: Is that because worms multiply so much? Kayla: I don't know why. Chris: It's why. Kayla: I don't know. And like, this James law horn case, like that was small potatoes compared to the multimillion dollar pyramid b and B setup. And given that the company essentially escaped the worst of it prosecution wise, it's just a matter of time before we open our newspapers and read a similar story. Of course, hardworking farmers separated from their money by a wormy con man.

49:35 Chris: Yep. There's no consequences, so why not? Kayla: So remember, do the math. If the number of worms promised by the seller soon outpaces the number of. Chris: Like, atoms in the universe. Kayla: In the universe, you're probably looking at a Ponzi scheme. Chris: I think that's a pretty safe assumption. Beware exponential growth. Kayla: Yeah. It's a good lesson of 2020 to 2022. So let's go ahead and evaluate the Greg Bradley B and b worm farm Ponzi scheme with our criteria. How does that sound? Chris: It's a wormy cult. Kayla: It is a very wormy cult. So charismatic leader, high, for sure. Very high. Greg Bradley. Chris: Yeah. And not only Greg Bradley, but, like, he recruited a second charismatic leader to.

50:16 Kayla: Help him and a third. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: He got. He just would get people in that we could pull other people in. Chris: Mm. Kayla: So high on that. Chris: Mm. Kayla: What do you think of expected harm? Hi. Chris: Yeah. People fucking lost their life savings. Kayla: Like, people lost their life savings, lost their farms, lost their mortgage, lost their pensions. Like, not good. Chris: Sucks. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: But people who are feeding us, by the way. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Like, that's. That's not good. Kayla: No, like, leave farmers alone, please. Please. Presence of ritual. I feel like he. So Greg Bradley was going around the country and giving these timeshare presentations. There was a lot of this. There was a lot of step right up and I'll give you a worm, and then you'll be wealthy, be on your wildest dreams. There was a lot of that going on.

51:03 Chris: Was there a lot of jargon in language? Did the presence of Kelly Slocum, was she able to bring some domain knowledge that helped get people. Kayla: I don't know about that. Chris: About the specific words, you know, like, vermiculture certainly is a new word to me. Kayla: Right. Chris: But, I mean, based on the story that I've heard here today, I would say relatively low in the ritual. Kayla: I think that you're right. What about niche within society? Chris: It's worms, man. That's definitely niche. Come on. Kayla: But it was in 43 states, and. Chris: I guess farming is, like, it was. Kayla: A $25 million business. It's still niche. I think it is niche. Chris: Yeah, but, like, if this is something that happens again and again, is that niche at that point?

51:47 Kayla: I don't know. I think if you walk out in the street and go, like, what's vermiculture? Chris: But if you walked out into the rural street where you were talking to a farmer, right, then would they. You know what I mean? I almost feel like the society in question here is the farming community, and maybe it's not niche there. Maybe that's a well known thing there. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: What about fishermen? Kayla: What about them? Chris: Don't they use worms? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Is that ever a thing? Kayla: People can grow their own worms for fishing? Yes. Or sell them as bait. That's part of vermiculture. Chris: Okay, so is that, like. I'm just trying to get a sense of, like, how I can go defraud a bunch of people. Kayla: You can't. Chris: Me? Kayla: I mean, why not? You'll probably die or end up in jail. Chris: Okay, first of all, I'm already 40, so I'm safe. Second of all, whatever. I can do what I want.

52:33 Kayla: Go ahead. I don't think you can. Where are you gonna do it? We live in an apartment. Are you saying. Are you saying it's niche or. Chris: I'm going to say it's. Let's say it's niche, with the possibility that if we ask a farmer that maybe we would change our mind. Okay, that's a terrible judgment. Kayla: Anti factuality. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: Huge. Just the biggest. Chris: What was the question or the quote? He never told anything but a lie or whatever. Kayla: Everything was a lie. Also, there's more worms. He's promising more worms than humanly possible. Chris: Right. This is also the criteria where we should. Kayla: Also the lies about Sierra Leone, like, literally staging a call from the minister of agriculture.

53:14 Chris: Right. And this is also the criteria where we, like, shoehorn in the whole, like, motivated reasoning thing, too. And there was definitely, like, a lot of motivated reasoning here. Right. To be able to get into this, you have to be able to turn off part of your brain. That's the critical thinking part of your brain. And with the people that were left over, still believers after it all crashed. Kayla: Right. Yeah, yeah. Super high life consumption. I'm gonna say this is high because. Chris: Because it bankrupted people. Kayla: Well, it bankrupted people. And also, it's like, it's not. No work to take care of these worms to grow. It's farming. Like, it's not. You are buying these worms, and then you're farming them, and then you're losing $160,000.

53:57 Chris: Yeah. That seems high dogmatic beliefs. Kayla: No, I don't think so. Chris: I don't think there's, like, a I'm right, you're wrong type thing going on. Kayla: I mean, there was the whole, like, if you don't want to be here, I don't want you. But that doesn't seem dogmatic. That just seems like a good sense. Chris: That's a sales pitch. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Chain of victims, I'm gonna say is it's, like, in between MLM and nothing. Yeah, there's definitely, like, farmers were telling each other about it and, like, recruiting that way. And then, like, Kelly Slocum was obviously recruiter. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Chain of victiming. So I think it's medium, maybe even high. I don't know. Chris: Yeah, 70%. Kayla: Yeah. And then the last one. Safe or unsafe to exit.

54:37 Chris: It seems like it depends on where you were. Like, if you were an early. If you were an early warmer, maybe it was safe. Kayla: Right. Chris: But if you were getting in towards the end, if you were exiting, that meant you were exiting with your pockets a lot lighter. Kayla: Right. But no one was gonna, like, come after you or communicate you or. Chris: That's true. This criteria is more about, like, you know, can I exit and, like, maintain my social connections and relationships and not fear for my life? Kayla: And I think that you can. Chris: That's low. That's low. Kayla: So we've got high charismatic leader, high expected harm, medium niche, high intefactuality, high life consumption hygiene, medium to high. Chain of victims. Like, that's six criteria where we're, like, medium to high. Are we saying cult?

55:18 Chris: Yeah. Yeah. This is a worm cult. Kayla: Are Ponzi schemes all cults? Chris: I mean, I think this is kind of, like, with the mlms, right? It's like, this is why all mlms feel culty. Is because they all need some of these aspects to be true. They all need to have some antifactuality going on. They all need to have some recruitiness going on. They all touch and ruin people's lives. There's a lot of motivated reasoning and a lot of like. And probably the biggest thing is that appeal to emotion, that desperate hopefulness to stop being a temporarily embarrassed billionaire. Right, right. And that's why all of them feel this way. So I would say probably yes. Kayla: All right. Ponzi schemes are cults. You definitely did not hear that here first, but we're saying it anyway.

56:02 Chris: Take that, Madoff. Kayla: He's dead. Yeah, well, these guys all die eventually. Chris: Still, peon is great. Kayla: That's it for this episode. It was kind of nice to do something somewhat straightforward. Like, I think this will actually be a relatively short episode for us. Chris: Oh, awesome. Kayla: I know. Chris: High five. Kayla: Just remember, Ponzi schemes are bad. Don't do them. I'm sure we'll be looking like, don't make them and don't participate in them. Chris: Oh, oh. Kayla: I'm sure we'll be looking at other Ponzi schemes in the future on the show. And if you do want to get involved in vermicomposting, like maybe for a hobby or a little self care with me in the composting or to make fishing bait, you don't have to be involved in a fraud. You can just head over to the good folks on redditurmiculture and they'll help set you up.

56:47 Chris: And if you want to talk to Kayla about it, just email us culturejustweirdmail.com dot. Kayla: But if someone promises to buy back your worms, run. Chris: Yeah, and also don't buy a worm kit for 15 grand. Kayla: Just don't. Chris: Don't do that. This is Kayla, and this is Chris, and this has been cult or just worms.