S4E7 - The Abortion Conversation

0:00 Kayla: Radhe hi, listeners, this is Kayla and Chris from culture. Just weird. Our country received some news on Friday, June 24, 2022. Roe v. Wade has been overruled in the Supreme Court. We're still processing the news for ourselves, and rather than sitting down for a traditional episode today, we wanted to talk about it. We'll do our normal business and our banter and our Patreon shoutouts next time. But for now, let's just talk because so many people, ourselves included, find ourselves asking, what do we do? What can we do? Roe v. Wade has been overruled in the Supreme Court. What does that mean?

1:07 Chris: This is super interesting because I've actually never heard, I know about Roe v. Wade. I don't know the context of when it actually happened. Kayla: Then let's get into some quick context. So Roe v. Wade was a 1973 ruling of the US Supreme Court. Court ruled that the United States Constitution protects a pregnant person's right to choose to have an abortion. This ruling was supported by the right to privacy determined to be granted by the constitution in the 14th and 9th amendments. Essentially, the ruling declared that a woman or pregnant person had a right to privacy in seeking medical care, and that protected the decision to have an abortion. The court also announced a trimester timetable to further explain their stance and at what point during a pregnancy the ruling applied. So the court declared that the government could not regulate abortion during the first trimester.

1:54 Kayla: During the second trimester, governments could regulate abortions to protect maternal health, but not fetal life, and during the third trimester, generally after viability, quote unquote. Abortions could be regulated or even prohibited by the government, but must preserve exceptions for those procedures needed to save the life or health of the mother. This nuance in Roe v. Wade is part of the reason why we have continually seen states attempt to regulate abortion and why rules regarding abortion have differed from state to state. But since 1973, abortion has been legal in some form in all 50 states. On June 24, 2022, the Supreme Court overruled Roe v. Wade, deciding that the right to access abortion should be up to state governments to decide, not the federal government.

2:38 Chris: Was there, like, how did they overrule it? Like, was there, like, a case that was. Don't they have to, like, hear a case? Kayla: So. Yeah, exactly. There was a case that was presented before the Supreme Court. I won't get too into the details of it, but it's called, it's referred to as Dobbs v. Jackson women's health organization. And essentially, the court ruled that a right to an abortion is not present in the Constitution. Does that make sense? Like, it is not spelled out in the Constitution. Chris: Right. Kayla: Which a lot of the arguments against this ruling or, like, why it's bad law or bad legal precedent is the fact that, yeah, there's a lot that's not in our constitution because it was written a long time ago, and that's why we have things like amendments. Chris: Right. Amendments. And there's other things. I pretty sure this is where I get, like, way out of my depth legally, but I'm pretty sure there's things that are, like, federally protected that aren't in the original constitution.

3:27 Kayla: Well, that could be. We could be seeing a lot more of this in the future because of this ruling. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: So I'm sure you've seen that already. Things like same sex marriage falls under similar. Can fall under a similar ruling, like, that could be overruled in a similar way. Interracial marriage, right to access contraceptives. Chris: And all of those things are things that. That's not just speculation anymore. Like Clarence Thomas said, all those things are in the crosshairs. So. Kayla: So we could. We could see similar shocking rulings in the future because this kind of was like a. Oh, shit. I guess they're. I guess they're really. I guess they're really gonna rule this way. I guess they're really gonna rule constitutionally this way. And it just. It does open up a lot of other issues. We've made a lot of progress on to the same kind of overruling.

4:20 Chris: So the same kind of. I need to ignore things that the Supreme Court says because they are no longer valid. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. Kayla: Yeah. So this particular ruling has activated a number of trigger laws in various states, meaning those states have passed or are passing very soon laws that severely restrict or outright ban abortion in most circumstances. Chris: So they were like, they had. Kayla: Like, they had already passed laws ready. Chris: To go to oppress women, that were. Kayla: Like, if Roe v. Wade Falls, that will trigger this law to go into effect. And I think that is. I think that there were 13 states with trigger laws at the ready, and I think it is.

5:01 Chris: I bet I could name them. Kayla: Likely that 26 states will be passing, have passed, or in the near future will be passing laws that restricted abortion access that were not there pre this ruling. That's half the country, right. For what it's worth, at least 61% of Americans, which is a pretty big majority, and it's probably a higher number than this, support Roe v. Wade and believe that abortion should be legal in all or most cases. There's your context. This is a very brief and simplified version of what has just happened in our country. What Roe v. Wade actually was, the 1973 ruling, what happened in the arena of productive rights before Roe v. Wade, since Roe v. Wade, and what has led up to this moment now, and the consequences of this overruling are still unfolding. We are living in history yet again.

5:58 Chris: Oh, yeah. I mean, it was announced Friday, and we are recording this on Monday. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So it's happening right now. And that means that by the time you hear this, it will be maybe out of date. Like, who knows? Completely out of date what's gonna happen, because we are in the eye of the storm right now. I did read the. Regarding the polling, I remember reading something recently about, like, some of the nuance of how support, or what's the opposite of support? Unsupport. Kayla: Unsupport. Chris: Anything. Disapproval, I guess. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: The way how people view this is pretty nuanced, right? Like, it's not just like, right to life, right to choice, or Roe v. Wade versus, not Roe v. Wade. There's a lot of, like. Well, I guess the upshot of all this is even in the subgroup of I am against abortion, there are still a. According to this thing that I read, there's still a lot of people that answer surveys that will say, like, I'm against abortion, but I'm also against the government doing something to restrict it for people.

6:55 Kayla: Right? Chris: So there's, like, some nuance there, too, where there's actually, like, a chunk of the people that are against abortion don't think it should be regulated. Kayla: Correct. A lot of people are feeling a lot of very different feelings. There are some people, obviously, that are rejoicing, that are elated, that feel victorious. But if we believe the numbers that you and I just referenced, most people are not. Many people are feeling despair, are feeling betrayal, anger, rage and outrage, fear, panic, and God knows what else. The unnamable. Chris: I'm ranging all the way from, like, despair to super despair on the other side.

7:36 Kayla: Sure. So what can we do? First of all, if you are someone who needs an abortion and live in a restrictive state, I would suggest downloading the signal app and getting a VPN. You can check out Plancpills.com for information on how to self manage abortion with pills. To make an appointment at a clinic, visit ineedana.com. I will include more links to information in the show notes and on our social media. But most of all, please know that support is here for you. There are people that want to help, and there is a community. Please take care. For those of us who want to do something or get involved, quote unquote, the number one thing that I can recommend, and this is a recommendation for those of us who haven't been at the forefront of organizing in reproductive justice spaces over the last 50 years.

8:21 Kayla: I am not one of those people. My recommendation is to listen. This moment feels like a tremendous loss. Maybe it feels hopeless, like you said, despair and super despair. Or it feels like we're starting over. We're back at square one. We're reversing time. But those feelings can sometimes cloud us from learning that this isn't really the case. We aren't back at square one when we go out. I was at a protest on Friday, and one of the chants was, we won't go back. And that's not so much a won't as a can't. Chris: What does that mean for me? Kayla: It means that since the passage of Roe, and I mean since before the passage of Roe, honestly, people have been hard at work in the field of reproductive rights. A foundation has been built, a network exists. We don't need to panic. We need to plug into that. It's not that we won't go back. It's that we can't go back. There's too much progress that has been made already.

9:17 Chris: It definitely feels like. Yeah. For those of us who have been fortunate enough to not have to think about this stuff, those of us who have had the privilege to not have to think about this stuff, and now all of a sudden, it's like, oh, shit, it's affecting white people. You know, like, that whole thing, it can feel new, sure. But it's really just new to us because we have been blessedly insulated for so long. Kayla: Right. Chris: So it's. So what you're saying is that it's not new. So don't you. Even though it feels new, there's stuff that we can and should not just can plug into, but should, because it's like you don't want to be the person showing up to, like, build the house and somebody's halfway done with it, and you're like, all right, let's dig the foundation.

9:59 Kayla: Exactly. That's a really good. That's a really good metaphor. And that's something that I'm learning a lot more about right now, is that, yeah, the house is already in progress, so let's figure out where. Where our labor is needed and take the pressure off of ourselves to be like, I gotta figure all of it. You don't have to figure all of it out. Chris: Yeah. And it can be damn like, if you start trying to dig a foundation in a halfway built house, that's gonna be damaging to the house. Kayla: Damaging? Dangerous. Not good. So let's talk about plugging it. And, like, I also. I don't want to. I'm not trying to say that our feelings are invalid or overdramatic. I'm just saying that those feelings. We can use those feelings to guide us to the available avenues that can put us to the work of fighting back and put us towards the most useful labor for standing up against this.

10:47 Chris: Don't feel bad if it feels new. It feels new to me, too. It feels shocking to me, too. That's normal. Kayla: So when I say, let's listen, I mean that now is the time to seek out the people that have been doing the work, especially the people local to you who have been preparing for this day and do have a plan for moving forward. These are the people who. Who have been in the fight a long time, are likely black and indigenous women and other women of color. And we really need to hear them. And I know that I'm speaking on a platform, and I'm trying not to speak as an authority, because we've said, I'm not one of these people. I'm speaking as someone who has been on the outskirts of this work for a little bit. You know, I've volunteered as a clinic escort at a local clinic.

11:33 Kayla: But really, I'm speaking as someone who has been fortunate enough to move in a sphere that has taught me that I don't need to start the work, that the work has already begun. I've been fortunate enough to learn that, and I'm getting to learn it more. And I wanted to share that with our listeners, who might be in the same sphere as you and I. Right. Chris: Yeah. You're not platforming yourself. You're saying, here's what I've learned. Kayla: Listen to me. Chris: Listen to me. The white lady. Kayla: Okay. I've talked in a lot of hypotheticals here. So what are the actual tangible things you can do right now? Chris: Yes, I think this is the thing I would most like to know to answer this question. Kayla: I would love to answer this question for you. And again, I'm just one voice. There are many of other voices out there sharing what to do now. But I will share points from documents put together by organizer and prison abolitionist Mariame Kaba and sexual assault survivor and advocate Allison Turcos. So, specifically, I am drawing from the resource documents that they have put together since the ruling dropped on Friday. So just to share a little bit more about why these folks are in my trust network, specifically. Alison Turcos, like I mentioned, is a sexual assault survivor and advocate fighting for systemic change. So she is somebody who.

12:45 Chris: She's my favorite kind of change. Kayla: She's somebody who organized New York City's first slut walk in 2011. Do you know what a slut walk is? Chris: I have never heard of that, but I think I could probably guess. Kayla: It's just basically like a. Like a yemenite protest movement for women to be out in the streets reclaiming that word and potentially reclaiming behaviors and apparels and activity that have been deemed slutty or have gotten them called sluts in the past. It's a feminist movement, okay. Chris: Women are allowed to like sex and dress however they want and exist. Kayla: Yeah, fuck you. Chris: Right? I also really like the name. Kayla: Agreed. She's also done things like she live tweeted her IUD on Twitter, like her IUD insertion, just to help destigmatize and demystify that process. She has been a protester who's directly confronted figures like Joe Manchin. And she is, I believe, currently suing the New York Police Department for the treatment she was met with when she reported her sexual assault.

13:46 Chris: You should have led with that, honestly. Now you got me. Kayla: And Mariame Kaba, like I mentioned, is a prison industrial complex abolitionist. She has been working for decades in this field. She is a transformative justice advocate. She has supported youth leadership development, founded and been a part of a number of organizations. Project Nia is one of them, which is a group that intends to end youth incarceration. She has written a book. She's written a number of books, I believe, but she has written a well known book called we do this till we free us, which I would recommend everybody reads. And since the ruling has dropped on Friday, she has been using her various social media platforms in order to help guide folks like you and me towards the people who have been doing this work for years and getting people connected to resources, to care, and to advocacy and activism outlets.

14:36 Kayla: So people who are. Chris: Sounds good. Kayla: Deeply. In my trust networks. They should be in your trust networks as well. Chris: Thank you for explaining why I should place them in my trust network. Kayla: You are very welcome. Like I mentioned, they both put together documents specifically or have been sharing documents specifically addressing the ruling. On Friday, I will provide links to both documents in our show notes, and I will also post them on our social media as well. Chris: Yeah, and like, links to their socials, too. Kayla: Absolutely. Chris: Sweet. Kayla: So the biggest impact you can make immediately is to donate money. Chris: Oh, that's simple enough. Kayla: I mean, yes, it is. But for a lot of people, that can feel like I'm not doing enough, and you really are doing enough when you donate money, especially for something like this. Because when I say donate money, I'm talking about two local abortion funds to practical support organizations and to independent clinics. I'm not talking about giving dollars to Planned Parenthood or to NARAL or to the ACLU, which, to be fair, are nonprofits with worthy goals. But they are big nonprofits with stable funding. We want to be putting our dollars towards the, like the boots on the ground people, the independent clinics, which provide six out of ten abortions. These places do not have steady funding, do not have steady cash flow, and they're the ones getting patients directly connected to abortion care or providing the abortion care.

15:59 Kayla: So we can put our dollars there and know that is a worthy cause. Chris: So if I have a dollar to spend right now, it's best to spend it on these local organizations more so, at least than the planned parenthoods of the world or Democrats. Don't do that. Kayla: I will not get into the whether or not we should be donating $15 to Nancy, Pennsylvania. Right now, I don't have enough time on this podcast, and I will blow out our mics with the amount I scream. But yes, that is the idea here. And specifically, if you can, monthly donations are really needed. So again, just going back to this idea of stable income. Stable income is crucial for local organizations.

16:41 Chris: Right. You can plan more that way. Kayla: You can plan more that way. If there's. And it's little as $5, little as $1. Just any stable amount that you can give. It's great. Like today, I canceled Apple plus, and instead of giving $5 to Apple, $5 is now going. Going to access reproductive justice, which is. Chris: Kayla, apple needs your money. Kayla: They do not need my money. They're fine without it. I'll steal their tv or Apple. Those $5 are now going to access reproductive justice, which is a California abortion fund. Chris: Okay, why couldn't we cancel paramount? Kayla: Because I'm watching evil right now. Chris: Oh, the other thing with the money, just while we're on that topic is like, I know I said, it seems simple, and you said, oh, yeah, it can feel like it's not doing enough. But actually, I remember hearing about this kind of thing. For example, like when Katrina happened. Right, right. When Katrina happened, it was the same recommendation I've heard that for other natural disasters, too. This basically is. But going there and helping feels good. Like, you know, I really want to drive to Louisiana and help with stuff, but actually just sending money can better. It can be a better use of resources, more helpful to the people that are already there, already doing the work.

17:50 Kayla: Right. It's like if people are already trained and if people already know how to build a house and are in the middle of building a house and are trained to do it, if you show up and need training, don't have any of the tools, maybe get in the way, that's actually not helping the cause. But if you send money to the people building the house, great. Awesome. Chris: Yeah. They can afford to buy the slats for the roof and then finish the house. Kayla: That house example, that Katrina example. All of these are very good examples for why money is a great way to get involved right now. But not all of us have the privilege to donate money, especially these days. And if that's the case for you and you'd still like to act, this is where something like organizing a fundraiser for your local abortion fund is a perfect way to plug in. And that can be as simple as sending an email out to your closest friends and family being like, hey, you guys, let's try and, you know, let's throw a dollar to this local abortion.

18:44 Chris: Fund or my birthday's coming up. Kayla: Yeah, my birthday wish list. Sharing on your social media. And again, these. These documents that I'm going to share will have ways for you to specifically engage on social media on this topic in ways that are safe and informative and helpful. So keep an eye out for that. But yeah, money is tight right now for a lot of us. There are different ways to help get dollars towards these organizations that aren't necessarily taking it out of your own pocket if you don't have it to give. Chris: Right? Which is okay. Kayla: So once you have done all of this and you want to do more, this is when it's the time to get yourself connected to your local abortion fund. So, like I just mentioned, abortion funds are the ones providing boots on the ground services, including funding for folks seeking abortion care. This means that these are the people that are making appointments or helping make appointments. They're arranging for transportation, they are connecting patients to services and to counseling, and they're helping to pay the fees associated with abortion care. Many abortion funds also train volunteers to act as clinic escorts. That's where I got my clinic escort training with access reproductive justice and LA for choice. And many of them have already set up practical support organizations.

20:01 Kayla: So a practical support organization, or a PSO, is a group of volunteers who help people access safe, quality abortions and other services without delay. You cannot delay these kinds of procedures by providing direct assistance, like rides, like getting people to and from the clinic, giving people places to sleep, to stay, to rest, providing childcare, translation services, and more. Getting connected to a practical support organization is a really great opportunity for folks like me who have been moved by the informal auntie networks that have spread across social media communities. Like Reddit. Chris: Auntie, like auntie. Oh, like your aunt, like, okay, auntie networks.

20:46 Kayla: Have you heard of auntie networks? Chris: I have not heard of auntie networks. Kayla: Okay, so auntie networks sprung up. I want to. They've been around for at least a year. It's probably longer, I'm not sure, but auntie networks are basically mostly women in, quote, unquote, safe states or states that do not restrict abortion access. Going online and saying, hi, I live here. I have this kind of room. I can support somebody who's seeking an abortion in my state with the idea that somebody seeking an abortion in that state could then get connected to one of these people on the Internet and stay at their home while receiving abortion care. Chris: And where do these networks live? Kayla: Reddit. Chris: Social media. So a stranger on Reddit is like, come on into my home.

21:27 Kayla: I think that you are maybe tapping at knocking at the idea of why this is not actually a safe way to engage in reproductive justice activism. It's a wonderful desire to have, and the motivation is admirable. But unfortunately, the auntie networks are not safe options for people seeking abortion care and for people offering support. Chris: Yeah, operational security is paramount here, especially with the history of the forced birth movement. A lot of the stuff that they've done has been infiltrating and obfuscating the nature of what they're doing with the pregnancy crisis centers.

22:08 Kayla: You're specifically talking about the fact that the forced birth movement, anti choicers put clinic looking things and call them pregnancy crisis centers and essentially trick pregnant people in crisis into going there thinking they're gonna be able to access abortion care. There's no health care there. There's scary pictures, there's fear mongering, there's religious literature, there's pressure, and it's not good. And the history of the forced birth movement, infiltrating abortion work and reproductive justice care makes the auntie network a very scary place to operate. Right. Chris: It means that you need security. You need to be security minded and random people unvetted on Reddit, unfortunately, they can sound great, but then you found yourself in a very hostile environment.

22:58 Kayla: There's nothing stopping anti abortion activist from declaring themselves a member of the Auntie network and offering a room to a person in crisis. And you can take it from there. Chris: I don't want to even. Yeah, yeah. Kayla: So, like, we've, like we've just said the auntie networks are not able to vet those volunteering to help. There's no network, there's no system, there's no infrastructure. It's just anybody declaring themselves safe, which is, I know that I'm safe, but I don't know that the thousands of other people are actually safe. Especially with the laws changing so rapidly now. It's not even necessarily a matter of, like, you might end up in the wrong hands. It's if you are connecting to somebody who isn't firmly aware of the laws or firmly aware of what their reach can legally be like. It's just, it's not safe.

23:44 Chris: Well, that was gonna be my next question, actually. Is like, legally now like this. It's bizarre that we have to say this, but, like what? Like, for listeners that are in states that are passing some of these laws, like if you're in, like in Oklahoma or, you know, Alabama or whatever, like, what are they able to do? Like, what are the organizations able to legally do? I don't wanna get our listeners to do something that will get them in legal trouble. Kayla: This is why I would say connect to abortion funds, because they will be able to help you navigate the rules better than I will be able to help you navigate the rules or the laws or the legal loopholes or whatever. And again, you can visit. I need an a. That's just a great resource to get you connected to clinics. And those are the folks who will specifically be able to help you navigate those laws and rules because it's tricky. It's been tricky terrain and it is tricky terrain.

24:42 Chris: So along that same, like, security line, like, make sure that you are doing enough research for where you live and what all these crazy new laws are there right now, what this means to you before you act and just make sure that you're not doing something that's going to put yourself at risk. Kayla: And again, speaking of risk and OPSEC, like you were talking about, it's not safe for individuals to be openly advertising on the Internet their willingness to aid in a bet, that's just not the safest thing in the world. And the fact that the Internet is public, this public declaration puts you and anyone you might help at risk if you tweet out, I've got a room in wherever and I'll help you. It doesn't take much for a sufficiently motivated forced birther to comb through your social media and be able to find out where you are. You've got Instagram pictures, you've got Facebook stuff, you've got tweets with locations on. This is not proper operational security. It's not a safe system.

25:46 Kayla: So if you want to volunteer in this way, and God bless you if you do, because it is so needed, systems are in place and these systems and networks help keep people safe, patients seeking care and volunteers alike. So I would say, you know, a lot of these, a lot of practical support organizations and abortion funds, they are getting flooded right now with folks who want to help because folks really do not support what just happened on the 24th. Chris: Right? I'm sure it's overwhelming. Kayla: So something you can do is set a reminder for a week from now or two weeks from now to reach out to these organizations. So when that initial swell has started to go down and the volunteers working the admin side are less overwhelmed with new applicants, you can still get connected, but you're not part of that tidal wave, right?

26:35 Chris: That makes sense. Safety. Safety. Kayla: Safety. Safety. Safety. Safety donationsforabortions.com will get you more information about abortion funds and PSO's in your area. Another important way to help is simply to talk about abortion without apology and without euphemism. Using the word abortion helps to reduce stigma, secrecy, and shame. Like often we will see a woman's right to choose or, you know, access to healthcare. Like we'll see euphemisms, pregnancy was terminated, things like that. And it's okay, obviously, to use euphemisms if that's what you need. But when we're talking about abortion, it is also okay to use the word abortion. It is not an offensive word. It is a word for a medical procedure, right? And we need to be able to surgery about it. Yes, abortions are a common medical procedure. It is very likely that you love someone who has had an abortion.

27:29 Kayla: So finding ways to talk about abortion in your community is paramount. So you can do something like if you're a part of a book club, suggest a book like we organized to change everything. Fighting for abortion access and reproductive justice for your next book club. Or you can invite your friends to a local political education discussion about the history of abortion rights and access, which a lot of democratic socialists of America chapters are starting to organize. You can check in with your neighbors to see how they're doing after hearing all this news. And you can be open yourself to these conversations when they come up. We need to talk to each other. We need to say the word abortion. I will share a let's talk about abortion toolkit and a talking points sheet.

28:12 Kayla: And again, when talking about abortion in person or social media, make sure to triple check the information you're sharing so that it's safe and that it's accurate. There are, again, some great resources are I need an a.com comma, plancpills.org and abortionfinder.org dot. And these will again be linked on our social media and in our show notes. Chris: And hey, if you're going to share information, go all the way back to our first episode of the season, baby, do the Sift method. Like, make sure you're checking. Stop. So just kind of like pause before you share something. Then the I is investigate the source. So that's like, okay, where is this actually coming from? F finds better coverage. That's double checking other things. And then t is trace claims and quotes to their original context. So, like, there might be some quote that is just completely taken out of context. So check it back at its original context. There was actually something that was going around social media, I think, yesterday, the day before, about like the Pentagon.

29:06 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Yeah. So sift is a good way to avoid shit like that. Kayla: Sift, sift, baby. If you're looking specifically to take political action, you can learn more about the Women's Health Protection act. And you can call your state legislator to demand they protect abortion at any time for any reason. You can tell your Da that abortion is healthcare and to not go after women seeking abortion and abortion providers by signing the petition on colorofchange.org dot. So google tell your DA hashtag abortion is healthcare. If you are in Kansas, Vermont, Kentucky, or Michigan, please check the show notes for upcoming political actions in your state. We need your voice, we need your vote, and we need your political will.

29:47 Chris: Who is will? And why do we always need his political? Kayla: I hate the way you're looking at me right now. I hate it. You know, I didn't used to hear the term political will, but now it's just everywhere and I can't stop saying it. Political will. Chris: But what about political Steve? Kayla: No. Political Steve. Finally, the last thing I'd like to recommend is to spend time with your friends and family. All we have is each other. Horrible, unjust political shit happens all around us all the time. We fight and others fight, and bad actors continue to fight back. And it can feel terrible and hopeless and awful, but it's not the entirety of our existence. Resistance also includes joyous schedule zoom dates with your friends and cry about the bad shit. And also talk about the crappy movies that you've just watched and what you had for lunch. Get dinner with the people in your Covid bubble, and talk about the ways that you're acting and also about the hilarious TikTok you saw earlier. Spend time with your chosen family. Help each other with chores, and talk about the future.

30:47 Kayla: We cannot fight if we do not have a community at our backs. Build your community. Chris: Well said. Kayla: If all of this feels overwhelming to you, remember that any one individual cannot do it. All the weight of this and every pillar of social justice, it doesn't rest on your shoulders. It rests on all of our shoulders. We are in this together, and there is no expectation that you do everything all of the time. In the words of Mariame Kaba, you are not needed everywhere, but you are needed somewhere. Find your somewhere and plant yourself there. Help your seeds grow there. That's my advice on what you can do right now. Do what you can when you can. Take care of yourself. Be honest about your capacity. Accept that this will be a long fight and be there for your community.

31:35 Chris: That is the only thing that makes sense to me. I don't know. Yeah. Because otherwise it would be overwhelming. Kayla: So I want to ask you now, Chris. Chris: Yes, Kayla? Kayla: In spirit of building our little community of two, well, don't forget we all. Chris: Of our parasocial friends and all of. Kayla: Our parasocial friends, how are you doing with the news about Roe v. Wade getting overturned? How's the man feeling? Yeah, the important. Chris: I'm leaving that because as the white male, I feel like my voice is the most important one right now. No, it's okay. So it's. I don't know, man. It's challenging for a lot of ways. Some ways which I don't even know if I want to get into on the podcast or not.

32:23 Kayla: Sure. Chris: Obviously, it's particularly challenging for us, given the fertility journey that we have had. I don't know how much of that you care to share. I know. Obviously, we've shared, like, quite a bit of it on previous, very special episodes. Kayla: Yeah. I scream about it on my twitter from time to time. Chris: Yeah. So it's just. I don't know, man. Even in California, it's scary because it's hard to know what's next. It's hard to know whether things I really like what you're saying about just the, like, the present moment stuff, because the future is so uncertain right now. Yeah, that's kind of like, the really actionable thing is like, well, you know what? The future is always uncertain, and I could get hit by a car tomorrow, so I should always be enjoying the time that I have today. And it definitely feels like that. It also gets really kind of bewildering and complicated for me because I come from a place of, like, a history and a background of pro life.

33:32 Kayla: That's the culture that you came from? Chris: That's the culture that I came from. And it just makes things confusing and challenging. I actually think that's maybe a bit too overwhelming for me even to discuss on the podcast right now. But what I will say about that, just in terms of efficacy, I maybe have a few things to say that might. I don't know if it'll help, but I'll share my thoughts. I'll share my experiences, because right now, obviously, having done this episode, it's probably pretty clear that I'm pretty solidly pro choice. But I know some of our listeners may not be. And if you guys are still listening, maybe. Maybe I wanted to say some words about, like, what changed my mind.

34:17 Chris: And also, for those of you that are pro choice but have pro life family and friends that you would want to talk to, obviously, you don't have to do that. That is not mandatory at all. Like, any of these other, like, stuff that we've been talking about today, protect your own safety and mental health first. But if it's something that could help. Some of the things that helped me change my mind were, so if you have anybody that's got, like, a particularly, like, libertarian bent that you know, or if you have that bent yourself, you might want to try something like. Like, super, like, philosophical speaking. So, like, I remember in college, we had a discussion in a club I was in, and it was around, you know, it was around the abortion issue. And one of the argument.

35:00 Chris: And at the time, I was pro life, and one of the arguments was, well, you know, should. Would it be okay if you woke up one day in a hospital and you were attached to somebody else and they. You had, like, there was blood transfusion going between you and them and you had no say in the matter? Like, would that be okay with you? And even if it's they're sick or not with. Is that okay that you have this imposed upon you? Is that okay that you are not allowed to make this choice, even if it results in the other person's death. And now this is a fully formed person, not a fetuse. So would it. Chris: The question was, would it feel immoral one way or the other, whether you say, like, no, I should not be forced to be connected to this person, even if it is providing them life, because I was not provided. I was not given a choice in this matter. So that sort of, like, removing the. Removing the. Sort of, like, the emotion and all the context, like, all the existing, swirling, sort of, like, storytelling around abortion, pro life, you know, contracept, whatever.

36:03 Kayla: When does life begin? Chris: Yeah. Removing all that and. And giving this sort of, like, very theory oriented sort of scenario made me kind of go like, oh, yeah. Well, I mean, like, obviously I should have, like, even if it's bad for this person, I wasn't given a choice, so I should be able to. I should still have the right. Even if it's like a quote unquote bad outcome, I should still have the right to my own. Kayla: To your bodily autonomy. Chris: My own bodily autonomy. So, yeah, I don't know. Like, that it wasn't like the be all and end all that made me kind of, like, change my mind. But it definitely open the door a little bit. Definitely, like, open the crack a little bit to be like, I can see the bodily autonomy thing now that I'm, like, seeing it in this other context.

36:46 Kayla: Right. Chris: If that makes sense. It's sort of, like, theoretical context. And you know that opening the crack, I think, is, like, some of these things take a long time for people to change their minds. We've talked about changing our mind on the show before. It's like, it's a hard thing to do. Like, it's not just an immediate. Showing somebody all of the evidence. Right. Which. That's another thing you can do, right. There's all. All of the scientific and medical literature points to abortions being something that is, like, extremely important for women's health, for public health, for saving lives. There's no reputable scientific or medical journal that hasn't condemned this decision on Friday that doesn't support abortions as a medical procedure. So that's another thing.

37:33 Chris: Now, again, facts don't always convince people, but as a tool in the toolkit, that's another thing for me that was important. Maybe I already had to have the door cracked open, but those data points were important, too. And I also think that doing some of the logic, following the logic of some of this stuff also influenced me. So when I say that, I mean, like, following the logic of, like, why would people be getting third trimester abortions as contraception? Kayla: Right. Chris: Like that. Like, why would somebody get an abortion in the third trimester if this was, if it really was just somebody like lazily not wanting to use a condom, right. And just getting, and now, and as an aside of, personally, I believe you should be able to get an abortion regardless of the reason, right? Like, you shouldn't even need a reason.

38:27 Kayla: The reason should be, the reason is I don't want to be pregnant. Chris: But I'm saying this in the context of talking to people who don't think that. Talking to people who think that abortion is murder. When you're talking to those folks, it's probably better to start at least with something that is more oriented around the health of the mother. And some of these more extreme cases which actually come up more often. Like, are there abortions that happen that are, quote unquote contraception? Probably. But for folks that are like more pro life, I think it might be more beneficial, at least it was for me, to learn about or think about all of these other cases that aren't, that are actually like, the majority of abortions that happen are because there's this medical need. Like, if you're having, again, follow the logic.

39:16 Chris: If you're having an abortion in the third trimester, it's because something horribly wrong happened with your pregnancy. Kayla: This was a wanted pregnancy. Chris: This was a wanted pregnancy. And it is an unwanted abortion, but it's needed for medical reasons. It's not. Nobody's carrying a baby to seven months of term and then be like, actually, I changed my mind like that. It's an incredible, and I've witnessed it now with you, and it's an incredibly taxing, incredibly arduous journey. So even, and the reason I say follow the logic is because even if you don't believe that's the case, even if you don't believe that people are getting third trimester abortions because medical reasons, for whatever, because you're watching people don't always watch the same news sources as we know, you can still follow that logic and be like, okay, if you don't believe that's the case, then explain to me why somebody would carry a baby seven, eight months only to get a, you know, contraceptive abortion at that point.

40:13 Chris: So I bring that up specifically because that's a logical loophole that at the time you might tell somebody and it might make them go like, I hadn't thought about it that way. I guess I can't really counter that logic. And again, you're just opening the door a little bit more. A little bit more. A little bit more. And then you might be open to thinking more about, like, okay, well, actually, if that's the case, then is it? I'm going to look this up more. Oh, it's actually the case that most abortions are for these medical reasons. Kayla: Once again, I just want to clarify one thing. When you're saying most abortions are done for medical reason, you're talking specifically about third trimester abortions, which are rare. Those are a smaller percentage of abortions. Most abortions take place in the first trimester.

40:53 Chris: Sorry. Yes, correct. Thank you for clarifying that. Kayla: Just to clarify. Chris: No, that's important. But knowing that can help you be more open to looking at all of the, like, for example, ectopic pregnancies. Right. That's like another thing that's come up a lot. Kayla: Right. Chris: Having access to abortion care for ectopic pregnancies is extremely important. That's something that is literally like, the mother's life is in danger and it's not a viable pregnancy. Kayla: How many pints of blood did I lose in my first one? Chris: You lost? I think it was two out of what, nine or eleven or whatever. Like, you lost like 20% of your blood. Kayla: Yeah, I lost 20% of my blood. Chris: Like, you were basically, we didn't know, but you were on death's doorstep, and if you don't. And there's, and you can prevent that by giving the person a abortive fashion. So, you know, there's a lot of these things that I think that as a pro lifer, you sometimes think of as like, well, okay, well, that's an exception and blah, blah. But actually, when you start looking at it's more rule than exception. And that might help someone see that. Like, okay, I am presented with this narrative that abortions are just like lazy unwed mothers that just were too lazy to have their person, their man put on a condom.

42:12 Kayla: Right. Chris: And that's not at all the case. And then from there, they can. Kayla: Vast majority of abortions are women who are married. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: So just if, just in terms of. Shaken up that narrative a little bit, most women seeking abortions are married women that have already had kids. Chris: Right. And then from the, and again, if this is, if you are listening and you are somebody who considers themselves pro life, or if, you know, somebody who's considered pro life, I'm sort of talking through this based on my own experiences and sort of the steps that it took me, like, it. I didn't get all the way to. Anybody should be able to have an abortion for any reason at any time for a while, right? I had to start with, like, well, oh, as it turns out, like, these. A lot of these are medical and critical and wanted pregnancies, and it's actually not contraceptive most of the time. And then you get to the.

43:03 Chris: And then you take that step, and then you take a further step into, like, okay, like, say it's not medical, but the person still wants to terminate the pregnancy because they feel like they cannot care for a child. And then that child goes into the foster. So then you start thinking about those things, and so you can kind of expand from there. But that's sort of like the stepwise process that I went through. I don't know if that's helpful. I guess, to summarize, thinking about the sort of theoretical, removing all of the abortion context and giving a theory, crafting sort of example helped me. And then from there, kind of thinking about. From there, learning about how medically important this procedure is, and then thinking through some of the logic of it, like, obviously, a third trimester abortion is nothing. Something is that.

43:51 Chris: Those are obviously going to be pregnancies that were wanted. And then I guess the final step was our experience. Kayla: I have been militantly pro choice my whole life. Having been pregnant multiple times, having had multiple losses, I am even more so. It has only made me realize more and more how important the right to choose, the right to bodily autonomy is. The right to family build in a way that makes sense for you and your body. It's only made me more steadfast in those beliefs and more dedicated to the choices that I'm afforded to, making sure that those are afforded to other pregnancies.

44:38 Chris: As many people as possible. Yeah, same. I was pushed much further in that direction, much more than anything else, honest. Like. Like, it was like a bunch of small steps and then, like, some giant steps. And the giant steps were our experiences. I mean, we heard from. We've been on panels now for other, you know, lost parents, bereaved parents. And, you know, we've heard many times where somebody has said, like, you know, I had this pregnancy and I really wanted it, and then something, like, horrible happened, and then it became non viable. And I remember one lady talking about she actually had trouble finding someone to. Kayla: Perform in the state of California, the. Chris: Abortion in the state of California. She had to go to Nevada, so that's even in California. And again, this is a wanted pregnancy that this person, this was a traumatic experience that this person had. And then on top of that, she had to go through the additionally traumatic experience of, I can't find somebody easily and readily to help me end this pregnancy the way it needs to be ended. So it's like, just seeing, just hearing those stories, too is just like, how can we be putting people that are all. How can we be. First of all, how can we be putting people through this that are going through things that we've gone through that.

45:50 Kayla: Are, like, just earth shattering. Chris: Earth shattering, just horrible. And then on top of that, these things are way more common than people think. Right? We found that out when this happened to us. I don't think we knew how common it was. And then now we've heard, like, you know, people will say, like, oh, yeah, I've miscarried. Oh, yeah, I had to have, you know, like, I had a pregnancy that wasn't viable and had to have an abortion. You know, I've had a premature whatever. Like this. Like, the fertility journey we've gone on has been pretty wretched, and that turns out to be the case for a lot of people. So it's. It's not just that, like, it really sucks to also be subjected to this, like, cruelness on top of that you can't get access to the healthcare you need. It's also, like 30% of people.

46:41 Chris: It's like a lot of people. Kayla: Right? Chris: So, yeah, so going through this, too is the same thing. It's just made me go a lot in that direction. So, yeah, I guess if I had to sum up, it would be like, sort of like, theory crafting thing helped and learning more about, like, the medical procedure and, you know, what that involves and, like, who's getting which abortions for which reasons. And then I'm not saying, like, go through your own, like, you know, fertility crisis, don't do that, you know, but educate yourself potentially, and then that might. That might also help enlighten. Kayla: And I think that taking the risk to have a little more trust in your fellow humans is really important here. Taking the risk to trust that other people are other people just like you, and are making the choices that are best for them and deserve the dignity and the humanity to be able to make these decisions for themselves. And whatever my judgment is should not really have any bearing on the choices that they inherently should get to make because of their existence as another human being on this planet. And I appreciate you talking about the. Talking through the ways in which you've changed your mind and ways which may help other people change their minds. Because I know for me, I'm not interested in having those conversations. That's a way for me to protect my mental health and well being.

48:11 Chris: Yeah, I just want to say that's totally okay, too. Kayla: I know. Chris: I'm just saying everyone that's listening. Yeah, but this is for our listeners. Anyone that's listening to this, if you're hearing the things that I'm saying and going like, well, you know, that's. I don't feel like I should have the responsibility to do that. That is not what I'm saying at all. Please don't feel that way. I am only saying this as, like, for anybody that is listening that might not be on the same side we are on this. Kayla: Right. Chris: And for anybody that is listening that might have friends or family that applies to. And also, it's something that you really think you want to engage with, that you have the energy and time and wherewithal to engage with. Those are just my experiences that maybe help there, but don't feel like you have to.

48:57 Kayla: Yeah. For me, having these conversations is not where my activism lies. And that is going to be where some folks activism lies. I think the quote I said earlier was, you're not needed everywhere, but you're needed somewhere. So not everybody needs to be trying to change people's minds. But some people do. And some people need to be over here giving rides, and some people need to be over here donating money, and some people need to be over here making political phone calls. And some people need to be campaigning. And some people need to be going to medical school to be able to work in clinics. Like, there's. There's different places for all of us to be. And that's. That's what this fight entails. Roe was not won by votes. Roe was not won by people being out in the street.

49:39 Kayla: Roe was not won by enough doctors doing x, y, and z. It was nothing, any single thing. And so we will not regain these rights back through any single thing. Chris: That's well put. Kayla: Thank you for having this discussion with me. I appreciate it. The last thing I want to say is to yet again quote mariame kaba. Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair. Chris: This is Kayla, and this is Chris. Kayla: And this is Ben. Chris: Cult or just weird.