S3E8 - The Shared Experience (Throawaylien)

0:00 Kayla: Ooh. Are we gonna do the thing where we start introducing ourselves with our credentials? Oh, I forgot about who we are. Chris: Oh, my God. Yes. Yes. I forgot about that. You know, I'm gonna keep forgetting about that unless you remind me. Or I guess I could put it in my script template. You know, I have a template for our script, like, the scripts that I do. Kayla: I don't know you because there's, like. Chris: A bunch of things that I always like to do every time for each episode, and so if I don't put it in the template, it just doesn't happen. What were we talking about? Kayla: We are about to introduce ourselves on our own podcast. Chris: Oh, right. With our credentials. So, my name's Chris, and my credentials are basically nil. I'm unemployed. Kayla: Say who you are. Chris: Okay.

0:40 Kayla: My name's Kayla, and I'm a television writer. Chris: My name's Chris, and I'm a video game designer and data scientist. Kayla: That sounds so fancy. You're a scientist. Chris: I am. I told you I was a scientist. I'm a physicist, too. Kayla: No, you're not. Chris: I have a degree in physics. Kayla: That doesn't make you a physicist. Chris: I have a degree in economics. Kayla: Doesn't make you an economist. Chris: So I am both of those things. Kayla: No. Chris: Anyway, welcome to cult. Or just weird. Kayla: Am I a film studies academic? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: No, I'm not. Chris: Yeah, close enough. Kayla: No, I'm not. Chris: Whatever. People lie all the time, bro. Well, these are barely lying. Kayla: I'm just saying I don't. Degrees don't mean shit. I didn't. I didn't mean to. Chris: Wow. Okay, cool. Whatever, dude. Anyway, welcome to cultures weird, where we disagree about the validity of degrees.

1:24 Kayla: Also, degrees are important, and they mean a lot. But you're not a physicist. Sorry. Chris: I am. So, do you have any business to talk about before we get to the topic? Kayla: I got a bone to pick. My bone. Is that. That I'm picking here is that. I was in the middle of preparing for an episode to do a recording of an episode that I was studying for, and then all of a sudden, you go, stop what you're doing. I'm going again. Chris: Yeah, I know. Kayla: And so my bone depicts. Chris: Wait, why is that a bone? Kayla: Why are we. Chris: No, no. Kayla: Here again? Chris: No, no. Kayla: Why are we here with you two days in a row, two episodes? Chris: Why are our listeners even listening to this stupid podcast?

2:05 Kayla: I'm just saying, I really want to get to this topic because you needed to do it so badly that you are going twice in a. Chris: Just that it's time sensitive, and we will get to that. Kayla: I'm very excited. That's my bone. Chris: So, yes, thank you for picking at that bone. Audience members, keep that bone in mind as we talk about a little bit later, because I do have real business. This isn't bone picking business. This is real business, our Patreon business. So we did do the tier consolidation, which is actually easier than I thought it would be. Kayla: We overhauled patreon.com culturgesweird. Chris: If you want to know what the benefits are, they roughly map to what they were before. But it's a $1 and five dollar tier. And the $1 tier is basically like, polls and involvement and stuff that way. And then the $5 tier, the biggest benefit you get from the $5 tier is the bonus content, which I think our last bonus content thing was. Actually, they've all been pretty good this season, Kayla, not gonna lie.

3:02 Kayla: We've mixed it up with the bonus content. Chris: I know. Kayla: We've got interviews. We've got bonus episodes. Basically. We've got art that we've created. Chris: Last time I talked about something that was completely unrelated to hop Sing Tong and the benevolent association. Kayla: We've got video. It's gone crazy over there. Chris: Yeah. And we have some upcoming polls, too. I just want to mention here on the show, we're going to put up a poll here pretty soon where if you are a patron, you can vote on the topic that we are going to do next. So I'm going to put up two polls, one for me and one for Kayla. Kayla: Oh, shit. Chris: And you're going to get to vote on the topic that we actually do. So that's coming up. Patreon.com cult or just weird.

3:45 Kayla: Go there. Chris: Go there. Do it. Join the community before it's too late. Yeah. Kayla: One day we'll just close the gates. We'll be like. It's like the pied pipe. Chris: No, it's just you want to be. You want to be the first to the, you know, to the trend. You want to be like a trendsetter. Kayla: That's true. Chris: That's the thing you do. But then, yeah, then we're going to close the gates because, you know, we're cool like that. All right, Kayla, so you already mentioned with your bone picking that we're doing something a little irregular here. Can you do me a quick favor and check your calendar for me? Kayla: Why? Chris: Just do it. Kayla: I don't like doing this. Chris: Open your calendar. Kayla: It's open. Chris: Did you open it? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay. I'm just curious if you have anything going on a week from today, actually, July 18, for our listeners, by the way, we're just. We are recording this on July 11.

4:37 Kayla: I don't think so. Chris: Nothing? You don't have anything going on? Kayla: I mean, I am planning on having something going on. Chris: What are you planning on having going on? Kayla: That's my Sunday reserve day to hang out with my friends. Chris: Okay. Kayla: It's my friend day. Chris: That's probably fine. You're probably not gonna miss it. Kayla: Miss what? Chris: But I wouldn't plan on too much other stuff just in case. Because at least according to one community on Reddit on July 18, a week from today, everything may change.

5:41 Kayla: What does that mean? Chris: I don't know, Caleb. What do you think it means? Kayla: I don't know. Cause I don't know this topic. I'm waiting for you to enlighten me and I want you. Chris: But do you have any guesses? Kayla: No, I don't. I need to know. Chris: You don't have any guesses at all? Kayla: I need to know because you are doing two episodes in a row. So clearly it's. I'm very excited for this topic. Explain to me what's happening. What's happening? Chris: Alright, well, we'll get to that. Let me be responsible, though, and list my sources. First. For this episode, I consulted the multiple communities on Reddit, including the one on which this episode is based, and the I also belong to discord channel for the aforementioned community. A couple different podcasts, which, objectively speaking, are like, way much less good than ours. Wikipedia, of course, several YouTube videos, a couple blog posts on medium, an article in the New Republic, an article in the New York Post, an article from the Daily Beast. So we're, like really hitting, like, quality sources here.

6:51 Kayla: What is going on? Chris: History.com, which is the History Channel's website. Kayla: So is it aliens? Chris: And a few downloads from the Naval Air Systems Command, publicly available FOIA request. Another quickie download from the office of the Director of National Intelligence. And as always, a save the best source for last. We have a kickass interview again today for your listening pleasure. Kayla: What is happening? Chris: Two more quick things I gotta say before moving on. First of all, thank you to listener and culter. Just weird Superfan Colby for bringing this topic to my attention. And second of all, listeners, you're probably wondering, Kayla, you already asked, why am I doing this episode when I did the last one and we usually switch off between me and Kayla? Well, as you may have gathered, our topic today is uniquely time sensitive.

7:43 Kayla: I need to know what's going on. Chris: Not like how our QAnon episodes were timely with the Election, or the anti Vax episodes were timely with the rollout of the vaccines. Not like that, no. This is more of like a deadline kind of thing. So as I mentioned earlier, there may be something special about the Date of July 18, 2021, at least. So sayeth one Redditor who goes by the username Throwawalien. Kayla: Throwawalian. Chris: Throwawalian. Kayla: How do you spell that? Well, like Throwaway. Chris: Like Throwaway. Alienhouse? Kayla: Throwawalian. Okay, I get it now. Chris: It's missing a w, but it's so it's t h r o a w a y l I e n. It's a little weird to read at first, but it's pronounced throw alien. So just to Baseline, everyone, one more time who may not be as online as we are. Reddit is the Internet's most popular community platform, and our podcast would be, like, totally crippled without it. We've done a bunch of topics in the show that started there or gained a following there. We've had interviewees that we got in touch with from Reddit. It's just a gigantic bucket of communities that form around pretty much any subject matter you can think of. In the Case of todaY's show, we'll be talking about a CommunIty that has formed around the aforementioned Reddit user that goes by THrOWaWALien.

9:02 Chris: Caleb, before I tell you and our lovely listeners who and what THrOWAWALien is, do you want to take a quick. Kayla: Guess at who or what throw alien is? Chris: Yeah, I mean, it's the user, but like, do you want to take a quick guess at why there's a community around him? Kayla: No, I don't know. I don't know anything. Chris: You refuse to guess again. Kayla: He a alien and they like him for that. Chris: Good guess. Good guess. Kayla: I would like an alien friend if somebody on Reddit was really an alien friend. Chris: Oh, now I wish this was alien friend. Kayla: Is it not alien friend? Chris: Well, it's kind of alien friend, but ThrOWawalien isn't the alien friend. Kayla: Who's the alien friend? Chris: We'll get to that. So back in 2013, a relatively innocuous thread was making the rounds on Reddit. It was just a simple question titled Alien Abductees of Reddit or people who have claimed to see a UFO. What's your story? End quote. Definitely weird because it's asking about alien abductions. Right, but not that weird for the Internet, right?

10:00 Kayla: It's like tame as balls. The tame stuff. Chris: Yeah, I wasn't gonna say tame as balls, but you're right. I mean, there's been alien Abduction accounts for over 60 years now. Thousands of them. Right. But a Redditor that went by U throw Alien responded to this question, and for whatever reason, his story seemed to strike a bit of a chord. It stuck. Over a few days following the posting of his story, he responded to a bunch of other redditors, who then asked him questions about the experience and about the aliens. And then the account went dark after one last Ominous and cryptic message, which. Kayla: Read, that's my favorite kind of thing. Chris: No more questions. They are not happy about this. Sorry.

10:40 Kayla: Oh, shit. Chris: Seven Years Pass. Kayla: Oh, my God. This is my favorite story I've ever heard. Chris: And finally, he resurfaced to say a few more things, and then promptly deleted his account. Kayla: See, this is the best possible story. Chris: That could ever be told for Kayla. Kayla: Oh, my God. Somebody said something weird on the Internet seven years ago and then disappeared and then came back and then disappeared again. That's awful. Chris: First he disappeared, and then he disappeared and deleted his account. And hasn't been heard from since. Kayla: No. Chris: And that was just may of this year. A few months ago, about a month before his resurfacing, enough interest had formed around this fellow in his story that someone created a whole subreddit for it. R throwawalian. And that's where I got most of the meat of this story from, including our interviewee today. You probably have some questions, though, right?

11:32 Kayla: I have all of them. Chris: Okay. First of all, you might be wondering, what does the name mean? Kayla: Yes. Chris: This answer is somewhat mundane, actually. No, wait, hold on. This is actually kind of exciting. Kayla: Throwaway account from an alien. Chris: It is a throwaway account. The very first line of this guy's story says throwaway account because I'm afraid. Kayla: Throwaway account is an account that you are not planning to use. It is like an account you make just to post something. Chris: Right. So this guy is not ever tied to your identity. Yeah. Was too afraid to have this story tied to his real identity, so he made a throwaway account. So throwaway account plus alien abduction story equals throw alien. That's where he got the name. You might also be wondering now, okay, what exactly was this dude's story?

12:19 Kayla: Yeah, please read it for us. Chris: Throw alien's abduction claim is relatively straightforward in a lot of ways, but also has some pretty interesting and unique flavor, which I think is one part of why it stood out against the backdrop of hundreds and maybe thousands of alien abduction stories. I think it'll be really useful, though, to talk about the context of UFO abduction stories and see how throw alien's story fits or doesn't fit into that framework. Okay, so yay. Context, time. Kayla: I love a good context because we. Chris: Here on culture, just weird. We just can't fucking help ourselves. Kayla: Look, here's the thing. I need all the information. Chris: Leave out nothing.

12:59 Kayla: I need it all right? Chris: Starting with 30,000 years ago when man first picked up a stone axe. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Anyway, yeah, let's do. We do this to help organize our thoughts, right? So the first thing I want to do here, of course, is sing something for you. Do, do. What's that? Do you know what that is? Kayla: You're starting your history of alien abduction with the close encounters of the third kind thing. You know how much I hated that movie? I loved that movie as a child. Then I hated that movie as a young adult, and now I'm back to loving it.

13:40 Chris: Why'd you. Oh, wait, that's weird. Kayla: I was a super edge lord in my early twenties. Shut the fuck up. And I really disliked the alien as messiah trope. Chris: Oh, well, all right. And that's been it for today? Kayla: No, but I'm back around on it. Chris: Oh, you like it again. Okay, great. All right, so we talked about that being that tune. That was the first time I think any one of us has sang on call to just weird. So you're welcome. Oh, I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. I forgot about the jingle. Kayla: It's all phone, so. Phone call your dead dad. He's really sorry. Chris: All right. You're right. You win that for sure. Also, that was an original.

14:23 Kayla: Original composition. Chris: Original composition by Kayla. All right, so the reason I'm mentioning close encounters is just that there are indeed three kinds of close encounters. Kayla: That's why it's called close encounters of the third kind. Chris: Well, it's called that because it is a movie depicts the third kind. So the first kind is just simply citing some sort of object of unknown or extraterrestrial origin. And to be counted for this, it kind of has to be detailed and close. Right? It can't be like something on the horizon. Like, I saw a tiny light on the horizon. I dunno, it has to be like. No, I saw something within, like, football field range and I sort of got a detailed side of it. Kayla: Right. Chris: Close encounters of the second kind means that there was some physical interaction, like your car shut off or you found a piece of weird metal or something like that. And then a third kind is when you make a mashed potato sculpture.

15:15 Kayla: Well, it's when you build Devil's tower. Chris: Out of your mashed potatoes? Yes. Kayla: Man, that's such a waste of mashed potatoes. Chris: I know. That was. Or it's the most delicious devil's tower. Or that, although I feel like mashed potatoes shouldn't have that much structural integrity. Kayla: Why not? Chris: I don't know. It feels like they'd be dry. Kayla: Okay. But that's why he moved on to using, like, clay and shit, because it wasn't gonna work out. Chris: I see. In reality, of course, close encounters of the third kind is when you actually make contact yourself with an extraterrestrial entity or being, like. Kayla: You touch fingies? Chris: Yeah, like, et. So that helps us organize our thoughts between what are actually two sort of very different sets of phenomena and two very different narratives and communities.

15:58 Kayla: Wait, what are the two very different sets? Chris: UFO sightings and research and alien contact research. Right. So there's, like. And they're. I mean, of course they're all related, but when you really dig into it, like, they're pretty different experiences. Right? Like, UFO abductions are very personal, sort of, you know, psychological experiences on an individual level, whereas, like, UFO sightings is more about, like, what was that crazy researching aerial phenomena. Right. Yeah, it's like, what's that crazy thing I saw? And I. It's more related to, like, technology and the military and blah, blah. Whereas abductions are much more. Yeah, like, personal stories. Kayla: Everyone has seen those Ryan Gosling SNL.

16:38 Chris: Sketches, and if you haven't, please stop listening to the podcast right now and go on YouTube and search for Ryan Gosling close encounter SNL or something like. Kayla: That, and just enjoy. Chris: You will not be disappointed. So in this episode, we're gonna talk about a bit about both. We're going to talk a little bit about UFO stuff and a little bit about abduction stuff. But we're going to start with the latter because that's more of what the topic is about. And so we're not just talking again about alien contact, but about a specific subset of alien contact abductions. Right. Like, what happened in close encounters of the third kind wasn't an abduction. It was still alien contact, but it wasn't an abduction. So that's even. That's an even further subset of that type of close encounter.

17:23 Kayla: Were you talking about spoilers for close encounters of the third kind. Are you talking about the very end of the film in which a character went with the aliens? Chris: Well, I mean, that's what the title of the film means, right? The title of the film means eventually there was a close encounter of the third kind. Kayla: There wasn't close encounter like the close. Chris: Encounter, they only actually met the aliens in person at the very end. Kayla: So you have to be meeting the alien in person. It's not like. So when the alien spaceship was singing back to the people, that's not a close encounter of the third kind. Chris: I would say that's a close encounter of the second kind because it was some. There was some physical interaction that was not like an entity to entity interaction. Kayla: There's an abduction in the beginning, right? Or is that.

18:05 Chris: It's not super important what the plot beats. Kayla: Let's just. Let's just pull up the Wikipedia page for close encounters of the third time and give you a play by play of everything. That's the third time. It's my favorite movie. Got a degree in it in film school. Chris: All right, so alien abductions, right? There have been testimonials of alien abductions with us since the 1960s. Kayla: Wait, wait. There hasn't been alien abductions before that? Chris: We'll get to that. Actually, we're getting to that right now. Kayla: Oh, my God. Chris: The first reported incident of an alien abduction was in 1961 by a couple named Barney and Betty Hill, who were living then in rural New Hampshire. And this was the first widely publicized report of an alien abduction in the United States. Of course, the phenomenon of the abduction narrative has been with us for a long time, as you just pointed out.

18:58 Kayla: Okay, I was freaking out. Chris: So pre 20th century abduction narratives simply tend to fall under different cultural tropes than aliens. The most popular of those tropes, of course, being, like, stories of demonic possession. Right. Stories of demonic possession have a lot of the same features that stories of alien abduction do. Kayla: Got it. Chris: The socio cultural study of abduction narratives has enough meat on the bone to fuel, like, an entire podcast series. But for the purposes of our episode today, I simply want to point out that abduction narratives have a history that extends way before the sixties. And I also want to point out that depending on who you ask, that history can support one of two interpretations. The interpretation that I favor as, like, more of a scientific, materialist, skeptic guy is that abduction narratives are the result of natural human processes, and specifically, many of them probably stem from episodes of sleep paralysis. Again, this is a huge topic, and we don't have time to talk about all of everything that is involved in sleep paralysis. But it's much more than just paralysis. It is also accompanied by audio and visual hallucinations.

20:03 Chris: And the brain is triggered, in some cases, into some pretty extreme emotional states, frequently terror. Unfortunately. Kayla: Well, it's like how feelings and dreams are, like, heightened, and that's, like, totally conscious version of that. Chris: The other big thing that I think contributes to most abduction stories is a concept we've covered a few times in the show before when discussing the satanic panic and false memory implantation. And that's suggestibility. What you find with quite a few abductees is that for whatever reason, they experience a gap of missing time in their memories. And that, of course, can be accompanied by distress. So these abductees, or experiencers, by the way, they're more precisely called experiencers now, they will then seek out some sort of therapeutic solution. And for reasons we again won't get into, this is often in the form of hypnosis, regression therapy. Actually, we can sort of get into it a little bit. The primary reason is that these folks want to recover memories that they think have been lost during this period of missing time, that they have memorials, right.

21:08 Chris: Naturally, they're like, I want to recover that. And then it leads you, I'd try it out. Yeah. And that's exactly what regression therapy alleges to do. Now, again, longtime listeners of the show will know that memory regression is not supported by medical science and is actually a surprisingly destructive force within the alt medicine sphere. And that is somewhat the case here, too, because, of course, these regression sessions and suggestion from the hypnotherapist can and do create false abduction memories, in some cases increasing the level of distress of the patient. And this is one easier to do than we'd like to think as we've talked about on the show. And two, even easier if therapist, the patient, or both are predisposed to any sort of, like, alien abduction explanation. And finally, there's just some good old fashioned grifting.

21:59 Chris: There are definitely hoaxers out there that pretend like they've been abducted and tell these stories just for the attention and clout that they can bring. In the parlance of 2021 Internet culture, they're the Larpers, the live action role players. And for what it's worth, throw alien community seems to be pretty hyper vigilant about potential abductee larps and have even been successful in exposing a few. So, like, they'll really go at it on the larping thing. Yeah. All right. Now, a couple minutes ago, I said there's another interpretation available for abduction narratives and specifically why there have always been abduction narratives with us. It just changed from demons to aliens when we started becoming less interested in the former and more interested in the latter.

22:39 Chris: So the alternative interpretation favored by those who take abduction narratives more at face value is that, yes, the flavor of the abduction stories have changed, but that's because folks before the 20th century didn't have the broader scientific knowledge about the wider universe and the possibility of aliens, so they just incorrectly interpreted it through the lens of demonic possession. Kayla: I buy it. Like, here's the thing that doesn't not make sense. Chris: No, I'm not presenting this, and I think that is a valid interpretation. Absolutely. I don't personally ascribe to it for reasons I'll get into, but I think it's a totally valid interpretation. Actually, I say that I have the.

23:21 Kayla: I'm jumping the gun. Sorry. Chris: Stop jumping my script gun. I don't favor this view because I believe the Occam's razor explanations that I talked about just a second ago for abduction experiencers. But I also want to emphasize a broader point about close encounters and alien stuff. It's always felt a little different to me from other, like, outsider knowledge type stuff, like, you know, spiritualism, new age stuff, occult and ghosts and blah, blah. You know, the smorgasbord. Right. And the reason for that is that it's always had this weird thing lurking underneath the surface of, like, well, aliens could have a non supernatural explanation, right?

24:02 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Like spoon bending and soul phones and channeling. Lemurian warrior spirits are all obviously supernatural and thus very easy to dismiss. Alien stories are missing that easy silver bullet of supernaturalism, which just, like, it makes them a little more messy to think about. Kayla: Right. Because there's always that, like, but aliens probably exist. Chris: Right, right. That's. That's the thing. That doesn't mean that aliens deserve any less standard of evidence than anything else we want to approach with scientific rigor. Far from it. But, for example, that's why the host of PBS spacetime, which is a YouTube channel, you know, that I love, will say, you don't love it. Kayla: You're obsessed with it.

24:43 Chris: I'm not obsessed with it. I just watch it. Whenever they have a new episode, I watch it. That's not obsession. Kayla: All day, every day. Chris: It's very good. Kayla: I walk in on you at 03:00. Chris: A.M. Go check it out. Kayla: Mini whining episodes, right? Chris: I just. It's like, right up like 1 cm from my eyeball. Anyway, that's why the host of that channel, which I love and is like ultra scientific, will say the relatively well known line, it's never aliens until it is. That's a well known line. He says it, too. But I can pretty much guarantee you'll never catch him saying it's never ghosts until it is. Kayla: I want to, like, I know this isn't the forum for it, but maybe it's gonna be for bonus content. But I kind of want to get into that because I feel like something like ghosts, to me, also does feel like, what with it doesn't have the definite of, like, aliens exist. There is kind of a, like. Yeah, but it could be something that we haven't discovered in science, whereas, like, we know ancient limarines do not exist, right?

25:42 Chris: Well, yeah, so I think you're right. I think there's maybe a spectrum of things there. I do talk a little bit more about, like, what it means to be a skeptic later, so let's maybe hold that thought until I get to that point, and then we'll. We'll unpack that just a little bit more. But I think on that spectrum, you know, if, like, ancient lemurian channeling spirit is, like, way here, over here, on the easy to debunk side of that, you know, maybe ghosts is somewhere in the middle, because, like, maybe there's some ectoplasm thing that actually has a grounded explanation in reality that comports with the standard model, or even it's just like, whatever. Kayla: It's all bad wiring. Like, that's still an explanation, right? Chris: And then with aliens, it's, like, all the way on this other side where we've seen billions of stars, right? Like, we know and we know that we exist, right? We're floating around a star. So it's like, it's not that hard to extrapolate that this thing probably exists. So the question is not so much like, you don't have as much to overcome, right? You don't have to overcome the, like, I would need a new framework of understanding reality to accept ghosts. I would only need to have. I wouldn't need that for aliens. I would only need, like, oh, this guy's finally telling the truth, right?

26:48 Kayla: Right. Chris: By the way, the host of PBS spacetime, and his name is Matt O'Dowd, by the way, he talked about Omuramura on his channel, which I'll link that in the show notes, but Omuramura, just, if you don't remember, was that strange extrasolar object that entered and left the solar system on that unexpected trajectory. And some people were like, ooh, maybe it's an alien vessel, including, like, a respected professor at Harvard. Kayla: When was this? Chris: So I didn't remember exactly when it was. And when I looked it up I realized that there's no r. It's just Oumuamua. Oh, so I'm a dumbass, but that's fine. Anyway, it was detected and formally designated in the 2017.

27:30 Kayla: Cool. Because I always forget about it. So I feel like it's important to have the time. Chris: Right? But that's the episode. He talks about that. And that's the episode where he talks about why it's important to be skeptical of aliens, even though it's a possible possibility that they exist. And that's where he says it's never aliens until it is. Anyway, all of this is to say, the reason I favor the mundane explanations is not because I don't think aliens or abductions are possible. I just think that it's not aliens until we have an extremely solid standard of evidence of belief, one that can be studied, reviewed, and verified in a controlled way. And that isn't just individual testimony. I will also add to this that my personal opinion is I think the majority of experiencers are probably not hoaxers or grifters. I think the majority of these folks have experienced something real and aren't lying for the clout.

28:20 Chris: I am just skeptical that they've definitely experienced alien abduction. Kayla: I think that's reasonable. Chris: Few other things to note, abduction stories have decreased in number since the 1970s, and in particular, they've drastically decreased since around the year 2000, since the two thousands. And my favorite skeptic to love and also hate, Michael Shermer, I think, has the best explanation for this, which is that the rise of ubiquity in cell phones means an increasingly high belief bar for testimonials to clear. Because now an experiencer giving their story needs to either provide one video evidence of their experience, or two, an explanation as to why they didn't pull out their cell phone to film that, like, most incredible thing that could possibly happen to a person.

29:03 Kayla: Right. Chris: I also want to note that one of my other favorite youtubers, we're just talking about, like, my favorite people here, actually, sorry, Michael Schimmer is not one of my favorite people. He used to be. One of my current favorite people isaac Arthur, who, if you want my opinion, is like a better skeptic than almost anyone else out there, despite that not being his professed identity. He calls himself a futurist, but he also has some really great takes on aliens. In fact, he has a whole series of like, what if type videos about how contact might go down with aliens of different types just going through the like, what if aliens were like this Sci-Fi trope or like this trope or like that Tropez. He has a ton of videos about just the alien shit, and I highly recommend his channel.

29:49 Chris: And I will link the relevant alien videos in the show notes. But I also want to paraphrase a few things that he said. First, he does a great job cataloging all the possible ways first contact could happen and going through them in awesome detail and meticulously thinking through the scenarios in a very like, decision theory sort of way. So I don't know if you remember the episode about less wrong and Roko's basilisk. Kayla: Of course I do, because that's the episode that I will be thinking of when I am toiling away in the basilisk's hell prison for not helping him come to realization. Chris: Right, sorry, and sorry everyone. But the sort of thing they were doing on less wrong was the like, well, we need to assume a thing is true, and then if a thing is true, b thing is true. But then the aliens would know this, and we would know that they know this, therefore. So he goes through a lot of these, like, building on these assumptions that we can make pretty safely. Basically, he starts off with, okay, if they're traveling here, it means they must have these fundamental qualities. They must want knowledge, they must be curious. They must have an ability to desire for technology. Then he goes from that and it's like, if they have these things and they're more technologically blah blah, then it would have to go. Then they would probably want this, right?

31:07 Chris: So the first thing he does that's good is just cataloguing these possible ways first contact could happen. The second thing that these videos are good for is you should watch them if you've ever been frightened by alien invasions, because he pretty soundly debunks reasons for first contacts being catastrophic. Barring like one or both sides being monumentally stupid. Like, he walks through it and you kind of go like, oh, yeah, that would never happen. You know, like, one of the examples he uses is Ender's game. He talks about a few other sci fis as well. And that's not to say that, like, we couldn't totally just one day find Earth being destroyed for an interstellar highway exit to be built, but it's pretty unlikely that we'd run into aliens and then accidentally find ourselves in an unwinnable genocidal war.

31:50 Chris: I think he's demonstrated that to me that would be pretty unlikely. Thirdly, he's very good at pointing out that actually aliens totally could be living among us without us knowing they are. It's not impossible that's the case. And if you can't imagine how, then I have some episodes of Star Trek to show. You actually, forget Star Trek. Secret observation of alien species is a very common Sci-Fi trope. He does point out that it's extremely unlikely, but no more unlikely than a myriad of other ways that we might find our first contact going. So, like, imagine a big pie with tiny slices, right? And the likelihood of pulling the aliens have always been among us. Slice is small, but it's like, not really any smaller than any other slice. And actually, it might even be bigger.

32:36 Chris: In one of his other videos, he makes the case that all first contact situations could very well likely have a two act structure, because one species will almost certainly be more advanced technologically than the other. First contact will pretty much always happen twice. First, when the advanced species takes notice of the less advanced one. Then after some period of study to learn communication and customs so they don't fuck up the contact. There will be a second 1st contact when they introduce themselves to the other species. Kayla: That makes sense. Chris: Now, all of this is not to say that a lone Redditor with a fanciful abduction story is correct, and that, I believe, throw alien story, but rather it actually wouldn't be at all weird for a first contact situation to be of the form. Hey, humans, we've been studying you a while to learn your languages and why Americans love football, but hate football anyway. Sup? We have a list of these tv shows that we want you to bring back from the dead. I, you know, please resume that.

33:33 Kayla: Is that what throw alien said on Reddit? Chris: No, I just made that up. But I'm just saying that wouldn't be that weird. Kayla: No, no, I guess you're right. Chris: Well, you're skeptic that you're skeptical they'd want to bring the tv show. Kayla: I just want to know exactly what throw aliens. Chris: Oh, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. Kayla: Also, they would want us to bring back Alf. Chris: Oh, yeah, that's definitely one of the shows they want to bring back. Especially because of the way Alf ended. Kayla: Yeah, I'm the one who told you the way Alf ended. Chris: No, I read that on Crackhead. Kayla: I thought I told you. Chris: Nope, read it uncracked. Anyway, it would still be weird if aliens showed up and said that. Like, it would totally be batshit crazy out of the ordinary for our daily lives. But if you sit down and say, okay, but if and when first contact does happen, how does it make sense? That it should go down, then that scenario is, if anything, more likely than others. I won't spend more time on the podcast here justifying why that is. Isaac Arthur has a whole 40 minutes video called first contact where he does way more than enough justifying. So if you want to know all those reasons, go check it out. And PS, I've been watching Isaac's channel for like almost a year now, and I've basically just been like itching for an excuse to talk about it on the show.

34:40 Kayla: And here we are. Chris: Achievement unlocked. Let's get away from the first contact theory. Crafting, though, and back more specifically to individual abduction stories that have already allegedly happened. One fact to know about these stories is that they tend to have a pretty specific structure. And I'm just going to steal this directly from the summary on the Wikipedia page for alien abductions, which their stuff derives from work by Mark Roediger, Thomas Bollard, and David M. Jacobs. Basically just guys who study this stuff and have written about it. So here is the structure of abductions. One, capture. The abductee is somehow rendered incapable of resisting and taken from terrestrial surroundings to an apparent alien spacecraft. Two, examination and procedures, invasive physiological and psychological procedures, and on occasion, simulated behavioral situations, training and testing or sexual liaisons. You're not gonna comment on the SNL sketch with Ryan Gosling for that one?

35:38 Kayla: I didn't want to spoil it. Chris: Spoil? Kayla: Okay, I don't want to spoil the Ryan Gosling thing, but I will say that there is a lot of pornography of this. Chris: Yeah, that makes sense. Three, conference. The abductors communicate with the abductee to direct them to interact with specific individuals for some purpose, typically telepathically, but sometimes using the abductees native language. Four, tour. The abductees are given a tour of their captors vessel. Kayla: Well, that's nice. I like that part. I don't like the, like probing part. Chris: But the what about the sexual liaison? Probing. Kayla: That sounds less good. Chris: The Tor. That about Tor, it says. This is disputed by some researchers who consider this definition a confabulation of intent when just apparently being taken around to multiple places on the ship. Five, loss of time. Abductees often rapidly forget the majority of their experience, either as a result of fear, medical intervention, or both. Six, return. The abductees are returned to earth, occasionally in a different location from where they were allegedly taken or with new injuries or disheveled clothing. Seven, theophany coinciding with their immediate return. Abductees may have a profound sense of love or a high similar to those induced by certain drugs or a mystical experience accompanied by a feeling of oneness with God or the universe or their abductors. Whether this is a result of metaphysical change, Stockholm syndrome, or prior medical tampering is often not scrutinized by the abductees at the time.

37:07 Chris: And finally, eight aftermath. The abductee must cope with the psychological, physical, and social effects of the experience. Kayla: There would be a lot of those. Chris: When describing the abduction scenario, quote unquote. David M. Jacobs says the entire abduction event is precisely orchestrated. All the procedures are predetermined. There is no standing around and deciding what to do next. The beings are task oriented and there is no indication whatsoever that we have been able to find of any aspect of their lives outside of performing the abduction procedures, end quote. Or at least me stopping quoting from Wikipedia there, which was quoting from those. Kayla: Other dudes, end quote. Chris: End quote of quote. So the TL doctor here is that most abduction narratives follow a specific pattern. And while some do deviate and many narratives are missing one or more steps, these steps are fairly consistent and definitely exhaustive. So given all this scaffolding, let's talk a bit about throwing.

38:05 Kayla: Yes, please. I want to know. Chris: Mister Awalian story. Get it? First name? Throw. Second name Owelian. Get it Mister Owelian. No. Wow. Okay. Tough. Tough crowd. Kayla: Yes. Chris: His story basically follows the first three steps I listed there pretty closely. Right. So he speaks of being captured and taken aboard a ship by aliens who are apparently thin and beige colored. Kayla: Okay. Chris: He has a bit of a mixed message about how positive or negative the experiences are. Sometimes he refers to his captors as though they have something of a relationship, but sometimes it's more sinister than that. He says this about the process. It's scary, but it's exciting too. And they are somehow able to make you feel okay about things. It's not until later that you feel bad or like you've been violated, end quote.

39:01 Kayla: Well, that sounds worse than if you just felt bad while it was happening. Chris: Yeah. You may also notice that I said experiences with an s and talked about relationships being formed. Kayla: Yes. Chris: And that's because throwawaylian says he's been abducted over a dozen times. Kayla: That's too many times. Chris: Quote, they've taken me up just about every two years. I'd say since 1987. Just about. Sometimes it's more often. And I didn't go up at all between 1995 and 2000. They usually keep me for what feels like a day, but it turns out to be about 4 hours, usually the longest I stayed with them was three weeks. Kayla: What? Chris: During that time, they made me make phone calls and keep up appearances, end quote.

39:43 Kayla: Okay, I have a couple things. Chris: Okay. Kayla: First sounds similar to a tagging and research system biologists and scientists might have with animals out in the wild, where it's like, oh, you trap animal and you tag it, and then you study it over a period of years and you keep going back to it because that's the one that you're studying. That's kind of what that sounds like to me. If they keep going back to them every two years. Chris: I had the same thought. Kayla: Second, I was. I was. I became much more skeptical about this when he said that the aliens made him make phone calls to keep up appearances.

40:24 Chris: Yeah. So that's part of why I kept that. Even though it's only sort of related to how many times he's been abducted. Kayla: Right. Chris: Because that also made, it also raised the same flag for me because, like, all the rest of what he's talking about is very, like, oriented around just the experience he's had. And then that is oriented around, like, trying to justify. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Which made me kind of go like, that's. I don't know why you're trying to justify number one. Number two, like, why would that. Kayla: I don't know why the aliens would care. Chris: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But this is a recurring experience for him, allegedly, which is actually not too uncommon for abduction experiences. Kayla: Really? Chris: Yep. Many folks who report these experiences report it as happening repeatedly. The two captors that he forms a sort of maybe relationship with, he calls them Jack and Gina. That's his name for them, not their own names for themselves. So that checks. Step three, conferring with aliens. The medical exam box that we talked about is checked in a variety of ways. He says he doesn't get probed sexually, like, you hear about a lot. And just note here, indeed, alien medical exam reports do frequently involve interacting with the subject's reproductive systems.

41:38 Kayla: Why is that? Chris: I am not sure. And I didn't look into that, really. But it's a very frequent trope with abduction stories. Kayla: Well, I mean, that's why it's like, that's one of the things it's always, like, made fun of, like, with the spoiler alert, the SNL sketches or with, like, South park. Like, it's always like, there's a probe in your butt. They're touching your junk. Chris: Yeah. Well, and I think that's part of why. I mean, we'll talk about it. Kayla: There's porn of it. Chris: Like, right. So, I mean, my guess, if we're just here speculating, my guess is that there's just something inherently sexual about the, like, being a captive. Right. There's something that's, like, inherently erotic about, like, the. You know, the. The capturing, like, the hunting and capturing and, like, being helpless.

42:21 Kayla: So you're saying that this is an erotic. You're saying that it's. If it's, like, an erotic experience for. Chris: Well, no, but. Okay, maybe. Yeah, you're right. Erotic is the wrong word. Kayla: Why it would come up as a trope is, like, because of a vulnerability. Chris: Right. But I think that most. And again, this is me speculating. So, like, I really want to, like, keep a tight rein on this. Kayla: Right. Chris: It's. Yeah, I don't think a lot of the stories are like. And then we made love. I think they're more like. They're more like, violative. Right. So I think. Kayla: Yeah, I'm saying that we made love. Chris: Made sweet alien love. Like Captain Kirk and that green lady. Oh, God, no. But I think that's so. Yeah, so erotic was definitely the wrong word. It's more violative. And I think that, to me, ties much more closely with the feeling of helplessness, the feeling of lack of control.

43:07 Kayla: That makes sense. Chris: One of the key themes to these things that is pretty much always present in an abduction story is the feeling of lack of control. The feeling of helplessness. I couldn't do anything. They took me. I had no choice. I couldn't say no. That's a really common theme, which is part of what also jives with me with the sleep paralysis explanation. But I think part of what makes this stories stand out is that he says that specifically, that doesn't happen. Right. And he calls that out as, like, oh, that's like, something that you hear about a lot, but it's not true. Like, you'll see. Like, he does a lot of. Oh, man, most of these stories are fake. Like, I really hate it when there's people that do fake stuff, and I can tell because it's really happened to me.

43:51 Chris: So he is part of what makes people feel it's authentic is that. Oh, well, he's. You know, like you have. If you say other people are fake, you seem. It's like, well, I mean, I just. Kayla: I. Chris: He knows better. Kayla: I question. And again, this is. Without having any knowledge of what's going on at all, so maybe I should just shut up. But I just go like, okay, but why is your alien abduction experience universal? Chris: Well, I don't like why does the. Kayla: Fact that you didn't get sexually. Chris: Okay, yeah, that's a good point. Kayla: I mean, like, that never happens. Chris: Right. Kayla: Right. If we're. If we're living in a world where alien abductions happened. Chris: Right. Kayla: I don't understand why you get to say, like. Well, because my experience is like this, nobody else's can be any different.

44:35 Chris: Right. I agree with you. Right. Even in the world where this is all correct, then, yeah. Why. How does he know enough to debunk others experiences? How does he know that they just haven't been put on different ships and whatnot. Kayla: Right. Chris: But what they. Anyway, what they do with him is they doo doo. They do take tiny tissue samples, so kind of like the little flesh plugs out of animals that we take sometimes for studied, which is kind of what you just mentioned. Right. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: It actually kind of reminded me. Do you remember that dude on the whale show that had to, like, this. Kayla: Literally makes me think of. Chris: Whales shoot that humpback with that weird arrow that took a tissue sample? Kayla: Yes, yes. And this is. We are the whales of the aliens. Chris: I think it's like that. Yeah, just minus the arrow throw. Alien says that he frequently is able to sense when they're around for some reason. Like, when they're about to come get him. Either electronics in his car gets screwy, or he just has, like, some sort of 6th sense about it. And one of my favorite bits, he says on occasion, the aliens literally just showed up and, like, knocked on his front door. And we're like, it's time to go.

45:38 Kayla: Why? But if he didn't need to knock, why would you knock? I guess it's nice. Chris: Maybe he didn't have a doorbell. I don't know. This is why you get a ring, folks, so you don't get alien abducted. Maybe the aliens were like, candy, Graham. Kayla: They definitely said a candy gram. Chris: Thorough. Alien says the best interpretation for the name of this species is, quote, friends of friends. Kayla: What does that mean? What does that mean? Chris: Friends of friends? Kayla: No, but how does he have an interpretation? What are you talking about? Chris: Because they're able to speak with him in English. So, like, they're. Kayla: I know, but what? Chris: They're not good at it. Like, he says that it's like, very slow talking, deliberate words. Kayla: So they said, we are. Chris: They're able to speak to him and friends. So they said that. They're like, you know, we're called the friends of friends. Yeah. It's like, if I would say to you, like, oh, you don't have a word. For it in your language. But we. It would be called. It would be roughly translated as friends of friends. Like that.

46:29 Kayla: What would we say we are if you had to use different words to explain what human meant? Chris: Human beings? We're monkeys. I don't know. Kayla: I guess we describe homo sapiens. Sure, man. Chris: Maybe. You know what? Maybe I would say friends of friends now. Although, I don't know. Kayla: It's already taken. Chris: Yeah, if it's taken, I don't want to do that. You're right. Kayla: We're just friends. Chris: Well, okay, we have to think about this, because that needs to go out on the next gold plate that we throw out there. Anyway, I think friends of friends is nice. It sounds nice. But then in the same post, he also says, like, hey, even though I haven't been probed, there are actually people that get physically tested by the friends of friends that die as a result. Kayla: Oh, so when he's like, oh, it's dumb. Other people get, like, sexually violated. They do get violated and die.

47:16 Chris: Yeah. So. But keep in mind that there's also seven years in between these two, like, posting flurries. Kayla: I'm smelling some fish. Chris: There's definitely some fish hanging about. But his whole narrative is a little unstable in that way, at least in the way where it seems like sometimes it feels like he's talking about benevolent and curious caretakers, but then it'll veer. And, like, sometimes he's talking about things much more sinister. Kayla: Okay. But also not, you know, playing devil's advocate again. We do this with animals, too, where it's like we're benevolent caretakers and curious. And then sometimes, like, animals in our care die or we do something and they die, or we do an experiment and they die. Chris: Right. That's true. And it's. And I mean, still good.

47:58 Kayla: We're still, like, curious caretakers and not. Chris: A lot of different humans. There might be a lot of different friends of friends. And some of them might be like, go be free, wild human. Kayla: Right. Chris: And some of them might be like, I'm gonna kill you for oil. Kayla: Look, humans captured Willy. Humans freed Willy. Chris: Mmm. That's solid point, Kayla. Here's another more sinister quote. Commenting here was a mistake, and I wish I hadn't done it. It changed everything for me. Not in all bad ways, but in mostly bad ways. End quote. Kayla: I hope his friends are still friends with him. Chris: There are several instances when the guy just kind of sounds scared. Kayla: That's sad. Chris: And speaking of other abductees, he talks a lot about seeing other folks in the testing facility with him, which I don't think he says, whether it's like a spacecraft or a facility or what?

48:44 Kayla: Like if he's taken to a location. Chris: Yeah, well, he's taken to a location. He just, I don't think he knows what it is. He's only seen the interior in his earlier posts. These people that he sees tend to be like fellow test subjects, but in posts from May of 2021, he talks about seeing, like, military and political figures conferring with the friends of friends in the facility. Kayla: Oh, no, I know. Oh. Chris: Some of his fellow human test subjects, he says he's developed relationships with three in particular he gave fake names to, one of which he said has since died of cancer here on Earth, one of which was a little girl when they first met on the spaceship. And he claims to have a relationship now with family and sort of see her as like a surrogate daughter. And he says he doesn't have any kids of his own. And part of his narrative is that she's since been taken to the friends of friends sector of space, gone from Earth forever. And he does hope to be reunited with her someday.

49:35 Kayla: What is happening? Chris: And the third person, he says, is doctor Dre. Kayla: Okay, I don't want to laugh, but that's so specific. Chris: Okay, all right. To be clear, that's so specific. Let me, let me backpedal a little bit. To be clear, throwawalian, in his 2013 account, simply says the third person is someone who is kind of, but not super famous. And then his account from May of this year, he says, oh, he's gotten too famous now and didn't even show up to the funeral of the other guy. And then some other user claimed that he knows somehow, and I won't go into that whole post, but he's basically confirmed that this other person, whatever celebrity, is Doctor Dre, I personally don't think that tracks at all based on the fame trajectory described by Throwawalien.

50:30 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Cause Dre, like, he, like, peaked in the nineties and then sort of again as a producer for guys like Eminem. But I wouldn't say that he was, like, kinda only kind of famous seven years ago and then, like, became mega famous by 2021. That's like, that's not Doctor Dre. That's not his trajectory. Kayla: No, no. But I'm just, I'm having a problem with this. Chris: Why? Kayla: Okay, but you cleared it up by saying he didn't say doctor dream. Chris: That's important. Kayla: Specific person, like. Chris: But the fun part. See, the fun part though, Kayla, is that, like, Doctor Dre plus aliens is like a really fun trope to play around with on the subreddit. So you know, like head Cannon. Right?

51:12 Kayla: Sure. Chris: Anyway, another two of my favorite things. Yes, ma'am. Kayla: My question. Chris: Yes? Kayla: Are you going to tell us who any of the political military figures? Chris: I am not. Because he didn't say. Kayla: He hasn't said. Chris: He just said like oh, people with the, you know, brass on their uniform. Kayla: That's the thing, I'm more interested in that than in the Doctor Dre's of the world. Chris: Unless it's really Doctor Dre, then that'd be dope. Alright, so two of my other favorite things, and actually these are also favorites on the subreddit as well, are the first thorough alien says that the aliens always gave him a gift in the form of a bowl of salt. Sometimes I think that maybe they just want to be friends, but I know that can't be true because they aren't really friendly. But there is this, they always, always make a big deal about giving me a bowl of salt when I'm there. Like it's a gift. Now I think they're confused about us. Like we all want salt as a gift. I mean, yes, but I guess maybe they love salt. Maybe they're after salt. I don't think so though. I think they just think it's polite, end quote.

52:18 Kayla: I think that if they like analyze our food anyway, they probably be like, oh, these guys add salt to every single thing that they cooked. Yeah, it must be a necessary thing. Chris: Yeah. One of the redders also points out like, well, you know, humans can't like naturally produce salt internally. Kayla: We have to consume it and we gotta eat it. Chris: So they might have seen that as like this is necessary for your biology. Want some? Kayla: We give little animals salt licks. Chris: That's true. Kayla: I just, and this is the thing that starts to get to me is when we encounter stories like this out in the wild, when you have specifics like this, those kinds of specifics make me go, this has sprung from some sort of experience, not, this is something you're just making the fuck up interesting.

53:04 Chris: We'll get back to that because that's one of the things that is talked about with this guy. But anyway, this is part of why the story appeals to me for sure. Because I'm total salt fiend, as you know. Kayla: You wish the aliens would abduct you just so they would give you some salt. Chris: Exactly. Yeah. If aliens gave me a bowl of salt, I'd be like, yeah, dude, I'm a on your side. Like, if you give me some onion rings to go with this, then you have my undying loyalty forever. The second awesome bit of idiosyncratic throw alien flavor. I guess it's third, if you count the Doctor Dre thing. But he didn't say doctor Dre. That was another guy. That was a third party. Is that. Apparently the friends of friends really like human tv and music. And actually, I want you to take a guess at what their favorite genre of music is. Just guess.

53:47 Kayla: Is it hip hop? Chris: It's not hip hop. Kayla: Is it alien music? Chris: It's alien music. Yeah, they like the human music. That is alien music. Good guess. Kayla: Edm? Classical. Chris: No. All good guesses. Classical. Actually, they don't care for. It's actually bluegrass music. Kayla: Oh, that makes total sense. Chris: What are you doing? Total sense. Kayla: The technical talent and skill that goes into really good bluegrass music. Also. Really good bluegrass music is really good. What are you talking about? Chris: Okay, all right. No, you make a good case. But it is extremely specific. That is. Kayla: That is a very specific choice.

54:27 Chris: And also, the aliens hate brass instruments, like, horn music and stuff, so that's why they don't care for classical and other things that include, like, brass sections. Kayla: Well, what about just a nice piano concerto? Chris: Maybe they would care for that. Actually, probably it's. He didn't say they don't care. Kayla: How does he know? Chris: He's been up there so many times, kale. They've had these conversations. Kayla: Are they saying this to him, or is he, like, playing? Chris: That's not clear. That's not clear. Like, sometimes he talks to them. Sometimes he's able to just, like, via his experiences there, observe. So maybe they just. Like, maybe he observed one of them, like, rocking out to bluegrass, and then another one heard classical and was like, this sucks. Beep, boop. Kayla: Feels like he's extrapolating a lot of, like, generalizations from what might just be, like, individual alien experiences.

55:08 Chris: That's a good point. Maybe only Jack and Gina like bluegrass music. Kayla: Like, maybe they just. Maybe we can't say that they speak for all aliens when it comes to. Chris: Reference, even all friends of friends, like, people, not all humans like the same music. Kayla: Yeah, we all have real. Like, I don't like this. I don't like that. But I do like this. Chris: I'm just saying. Throw alien. Actually, I think your extrapolation needs to be checked a little bit there. Throw alien speculates that the reason they don't like brass as a species is because maybe it sounds too similar to their own method of communication, which evidently is just, like, humming at each other. Kayla: That makes. I believe that. Chris: Yeah, I guess I don't. Kayla: Here's the thing. I don't like things that are loud. Chris: Yeah, no, I get that.

55:48 Kayla: I feel them. Chris: Right? Yeah. I mean, a trumpet is, like, fucking annoying. Kayla: Oh, I don't want to hear it. Chris: So I'm with you, Jack and Gina. There are another few things that Thoreau alien talks about. Like, he goes into detail about having been shown videos that the aliens have taken of past human monument construction. Oh, like what in particular? The great pyramids of Giza. Kayla: Hell, yeah. Chris: And some mega complex that he says is definitely in Europe. Europe or Russia or maybe south or North America. It's not super narrowed down for that one. It was definitely built in a forest somewhere, though. He knows that. Kayla: Okay, that's not helping me. But the pyramids. So is he saying they. Is he saying that they helped, or is he just saying that they were there watching?

56:29 Chris: No. So that is one difference. So one thing I mention here is that pyramids plus aliens is, like, one of the tropiest tropes to have ever troped. So it's not really idiosyncratic to his narrative. The thing that is slightly different is that, yes, he doesn't include the. They help. They're purely unseen observers. They're just taking this video taken home movies for some reason. He gets to watch. Yeah, taken home movies. Kayla: So can he tell us how they did it? Chris: Yes, actually. So he says the videos verify that the pyramids were constructed by free laborers and artisans, not slaves. So that's in line with current historical understanding on the construction of the pyramids. Kayla: Oh, I didn't know that. Chris: Oh, yeah, dude, the slaves thing is, like. Wait, it's, like, way out of date.

57:13 Kayla: It was just friends of friends building? Chris: No, it was free laborers and artisans. What's a free laborer like you and me? Like a non slave. Kayla: So just, like, people were volunteering their time? Chris: No, I'm sure they were getting paid in. Whatever. Kayla: Why are you coming with free labor? Chris: Egyptian points. Kayla: What does that mean? Chris: Non slaves? Free, not slaves. Kayla: Oh, when you say free, what are you talking about? Like grati volunteer or. I'm thinking, like, freelance. Like, were they freelance labor? Were they consultants? Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Did they get health insurance? Chris: Well, better than we have in the states. So that's in line with current thinking. And then the one thing he does mention, which would maybe be interesting if were ever able to verify it, is that pyramid bricks were lifted from inside the pyramid, not ramped up around the outside. As is often depicted. So, like, hoisted up from the, like in the middle and then built outward that way and then filled up from the middle.

58:10 Kayla: How'd they do it? Chris: I don't know, bro. You have to ask? Throw alien. Kayla: Throw alien. Chris: But that's also something that is like. Like, he didn't make that up. Like, that's. Well, maybe he did, but that's a theory. That's another theory. Like, there are many ways that people have theorized that the pyramids were built, and that is one of them. Kayla: Is it true that the pyramids are just like a little room inside? Chris: I think so. As far as. Kayla: I'm not like big and empty in there. Chris: No, no. They're not like a giant hole, hollow tent. It's. Kayla: Yeah, they're not like the Luxor. Chris: It's not like the Luxor, sadly. But I mean, there's just. There's one tiny room and it's. It's all slot machines. Okay, so, yeah. As far as the rest of the standard abduction structure, it doesn't really sound like it fits with the, like the tour point. Like I don't think isn't really get a tour of the vessel.

58:55 Kayla: Although some friends they are still somehow. Chris: Does witness other humans and what happens to them. So I don't know if that's like he can see them in the next room over or what. I don't know. Kayla: It's probably like one big. I picture one big science room, maybe. Chris: Yeah. He describes a little bit of it, but I don't get into like the. He does have a part where he does sort of like, describe the surroundings, though. He does experience loss of time, he does experience return, and of course he does experience aftermath. And in fact, it sounds like he has been to some degree traumatically affected by the abductions. Kayla: Can you imagine if you were abducted by aliens every two years for the last 20 years? Chris: Oh, yeah, it would be horrible. That would be a horrible experience because you're last 30 years, you don't know when it's going to happen and when you just have like, no choice but to go along with it. And he also, I think, feels a little lonely and also, like, lonely in general, but then also lonely in terms of his identity of being an experiencer.

59:52 Kayla: Right. When it sounds like Doctor Dre's gotten a little too big for his britches and probably doesn't hang out with him. Chris: Yeah, I know that's what it sounds like, but yeah, it can be lonely, right? Like, not just lonely. Like, I don't have friends, but lonely. Like, who else understands what I've been through? Kayla: Lonely in the way that, like, I sometimes think that maybe astronauts get lonely. Chris: Right, exactly. Kayla: They are the only ones who have had that experience. Or like, presidents. I bet presidents are real lonely. Chris: Yeah, probably. I'm not sure if he's experienced any sort of quote theophany, that thing we read about where it's like that, you know, mystical sort of like, you know, apotheosis. Kayla: He just needs to take some molly. Chris: Right. And then everything will be fine. It doesn't sound to me like he's had any sort of spiritual awakening or something as a result of the ability.

1:00:33 Kayla: It doesn't sound like a spiritual experience. It just sounds very similar to the way we track and study animals in the wild. Chris: It just does. Yeah, it totally does. And I had that same feeling. And I think that a lot of people in the community, people that follow this guy or follow, sorry, follow his posts, I think, also are of that same mind. Oh, there's one more part of Thoroalien's story that were talking about before. Kayla: Oh, tell me, tell me. Chris: But haven't mentioned yet in recounting the specifics of his tale. Kayla: What is it? Chris: And that, my friend, yeah. Is the prophecy. Kayla: Tell me. I want to know what's going to happen next Sunday. Chris: I mean, you might not want to call it a prophecy if you believe throw alien is telling the truth. That may be too dismissive, but, well, let's hear it in his own words. The following is the last paragraph of his initial I was up three weeks ago. That was the last time. I'm pretty sure that I'll go up again in a couple of years, but I'm not sure after that the whole program or whatever they call it is going to change in July 2021. I think they said 8th, but it could also have been the 18th. I wasn't hearing very well. They weren't trying to intimidate me or even to warn me. So I don't think we have anything to worry about.

1:01:45 Chris: I hope they don't show the videos they took of me when they first started taking me up because I was scared and so young and they're embarrassing, end quote. That was the last thing he posted in his initial reply, which was in 2013. And here we are now. Guess what month and year it is. Kayla: It is almost July 18, 2021. My question is, what could he possibly have done in those videos to like? Chris: I know, right? It's like, that's the thing you, like, finish up on. That's the last note is like, I was pretty embarrassed. Did you, like, pick his nose or something? Because, like, bro, nobody gives a shit. Yeah, like, if aliens are making this. And the thing that he, I think he. So he goes on later to clarify that they definitely meant the 18th, not the 8th. And he also clarifies that it's, like, supposed to be, like a broad first contact experience. It's not supposed to be something like, you'll notice it type thing.

1:02:45 Kayla: Like, everyone will notice it or something. Chris: Everybody should be able to notice it. You won't be able to miss it. It's not going to be like somebody's going to secretly contact Donald Trump or something. It's like, worldwide. They will make themselves known to humanity. Kayla: What will you do if something happens? Chris: I will, absolutely. First I will shit my pants out of just sheer shock. Then I will shit my pants a second time consecutively out of, like, elation. It'll be amazing. I don't know. That's why I asked you up front, Kayla, what do you got going on that day? Because if we get this whole first contact thing when you're hanging out with your friends and I'm sitting here at home by myself, I'm pretty pissed.

1:03:29 Kayla: Well, maybe you should come with us. Chris: Well, maybe I will. Kayla: Now, I think maybe you should come just in case. Chris: We'll get to that a little bit more about, like, exactly what we think is going to happen on the 18th. But definitely this whole prophecy thing, this revelation about this specific date is the most powerful spice and the secret sauce of why his story has captivated people more than most abduction stories. But, yeah, for you listeners, if you're a big believer, you know, keep one eye on your news feed of choice this coming Sunday. And if you're listening to this podcast after the 18th, then let me say definitely either congratulations or sorry for your loss, or I welcome our alien overlords. Please, would one of you do an interview on our show?

1:04:13 Kayla: Oh, yeah, we'll make you look real good. Chris: Yeah. And that would be. That would be by far the most awesome interview we've ever done. Like, sorry. Kayla: Oh, you think? Chris: Sorry, Doctor Gorski. Sorry, tulpas. Alien interview would win. Like, no offense, but, you know, come on, alien. Alien interview. We should try to do an alien interview even if nothing happens. Kayla: Yeah, yeah. Chris: I don't know who'd call for that. But anyway, to bring it back to the community, the date of the 18th is a big part of the magic, as I said. And some of my favorite posts are about how people are planning to like go camp under the stars and get high. Or this. This part is like, this is like, if I don't take away anything else from this episode, it'll be this dude's post. One person said he's planning on making a cake as a welcome gift for the aliens, and he's gonna, like, go camping or whatever, and, like, just have this fucking cake. And then he says in his post, either I get to give this cake to aliens, which would be awesome, or if nothing happens, I still get to eat cake.

1:05:08 Kayla: Yeah, that's how you should live life. Chris: I know. Kayla: That person has solved life. Chris: Exactly. He's, like, my favorite person. If everyone could have that attitude. Also, that's what good skepticism looks like to me in the face of the unknown, you know? Like, prepare for kindness. In the worst case scenario, you still eat a cake. Kayla: Yeah. Can't really go wrong with that. Chris: I've also seen several replies to posts like that where people are like, yeah, I'm gonna go do XYz thing for the 18th, but I'll be with you there in spirit. And a lot of the XYz things tend to be, like, going camping or going outside or, like, doing something spiritual or, like, you know, taking some drugs or something. Kayla: I want to do something. Chris: Yeah, I know, right? Like, I kind of want to, like, do something now.

1:05:49 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Here's the thing. If enough people did something, you think. Chris: We could, like, secret it into? Kayla: I don't know if we could secret it, but it's like, if enough people did a thing to make it, like, have a blip in our, like, global consciousness, it would kind of be, like, prophecy coming true. Chris: I think to some extent that is something you can argue has already happened. Oh, well, I mean, like, this is. That's the community, right? Like, r thorough alien, I think, is, like, that blip that you just talked about, right? Like, I think that it's, you know, this is stupid. You know, the real throw alien was the friends we made along the way, right? It's like, it's that whole thing where, like, even if nothing happens, which I obviously, I don't think it will, but even if it. If nothing happens, something already happened. Yeah, something already happened. Like, people are going like, yeah, dude, I'm gonna be with you there. And people's like, I'm in the Philippines. I'm gonna go camping on this mountain, right? And this person in America is like, yeah, I'm gonna be camping, too.

1:06:46 Chris: Like, I'll be totally with you in spirit, bro. Like, that's dope. Kayla: Yeah, that's hella dope. Chris: So, yeah, the shared experience aspect of having this meaningful date to look forward to absolutely cannot be overstated. To continue learning about the community that has grown around the story. Kayla, I brought in an expert. Kayla: Ooh, we got an expert. Chris: I reached out to the moderators for the Thorough Alien Subreddit, and one of them, who goes by the username of Lemuffin 32, was kind enough to lend some of his time and thoughts to the show. Kayla: That's dope. Thank you for doing that to you and to LEmuffen 32. Chris: Got to establish the Credentials. So can you say who you are on Reddit and why I'm talking to you?

1:07:27 Lemuffin32: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm the most active moderator on r ThrowawaLian. My username is Lamuffin 32, which I never thought I'd have to say out loud in my whole life. Chris: So you say r throwawaLian. And I know this is gonna be tough, but as succinctly as possible, can you just summarize for our listeners, what is that? What is throwawalian? Lemuffin32: Sure. It's quite a complicated subject at this point. It's quite a long Story. But to, I guess, summarize it as much as possible, it was anonymous Reddit user. The reason it's called throwawalien, it's a throwaway Account combined with the word alien, throwawalien. And they basically gave a abduction Story, which, of course, we have hundreds and thousands of abduction stories. But this one caught on about seven and a half years ago, back in November of 2013, had some really interesting and kind of funny aspects to it. And it basically predicted that the aliens would reveal themselves on July 18, 2021. Now, with the timing of the UFO report to Congress and that we're getting closer to the date, there's some coincidences there. It got really popular.

1:08:55 Chris: I see. When did the subreddit start? When did the community spring up? Lemuffin32: Sure. So, Jimbo, that's the user that created the subreddit, started that in April. So it's really only a few months old. Chris: Gotcha. This was basically somebody noticed that there was this prediction that somebody made many years, seven years ago, which is a decent amount of time, and that it was coming up. And now, as of the, by the way, as of the time of this recording, we're recording this on July 10. So that's only eight days away. Lemuffin32: Right. Chris: So I assume that it's like the activity has only heated up there, right? Like in recent days? Lemuffin32: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Just about a month ago, we had about 200 subscribers, and now we're at 8500. So.

1:09:42 Chris: Wow, that's some pretty good growth. Lemuffin32: Yeah. Chris: Sell a product. Okay, so you, I actually had this question a little bit later, but you sort of triggered me now to think about. You said there's a lot of abduction stories out there, right. There's like, you know, hundreds or thousands. So what is it about this one that you think is so compelling? Lemuffin32: Yeah, that's a great question because, yeah, there's a few reasons and again, I can only give my own reason. I'm sure the other 8500 people would have their own reasons, but I think, yeah, one is the main reason it's popular is the timing of the UFO report and disclosure movement. But the story itself just reads very believable and it's kind of an intangible aspect to it where a lot of abduction stories almost seemed to be looking for attention. But this user was just responding to a question on ask Reddit.

1:10:46 Chris: So it wasn't even a post, it was just a response. Lemuffin32: Exactly. It was just a comment on a post. Chris: Oh, interesting. Okay. Lemuffin32: Yeah. They didn't even make their own post. And another, I think, thing that's kind of captivating about it is they never claim to have all the answers. They never say, I know what the aliens are doing and I know everything about them. They are literally just kind of guessing based off of what they say their experience is interesting. Chris: So that lends it some, you feel like some authenticity because otherwise if they're not seeking attention, then why else would they make this post? Is that kind of the. Lemuffin32: Yeah, I think that's one of the main reasons. Yeah.

1:11:28 Chris: And you mentioned some other captivating. So I read, obviously I read the whole thing. I agree that it was captivating. It was, it was different as far. Like, I mean, I'm not like a super, I haven't consumed a lot of narratives about abduction, but, you know, obviously it's like you can't really go in our culture without getting that. And it definitely sounded different to me. Can you talk about some of the plot points that were, that have like, interested you more about throw a whaley and story? Lemuffin32: Yeah, I think one of the more interesting points is he seems to remember everything. A lot of abduction stories come through hypnosis. Basically. They do. I forgot what it's called exactly. But basically a therapist does regression. Hypnosis. Regression. I think it's what it's called. And they help them remember these things that the aliens apparently wipe their memory of. But he seems to remember everything and he's very detailed. He even gives details like what music that the aliens like and don't like. He gives details like them always giving him a bowl of salt and he doesn't know why.

1:12:39 Chris: That's, like, my favorIte. And by the way, for our listeners, the up vote button, they changed on the subreddit. The upvote button is actually a salt shaker now because I love some of those little tropes that you guys have really cloned off to. Lemuffin32: Yeah, well, that's one of the things we try to do, is not take ourselves too seriously. I think at the end of the day, it is an abduction story from a random, Anonymous Redditor. And I think we try not to forget that. Chris: What was the music that they like? I already know the answer to this, but sure. Lemuffin32: So they love bluegrass. It's their favorite type of music. And then they hate trumpets, they don't like jazz. Chris: Right, right. I thought that was really. And I guess is it? And you said some of that is, like, the specificity or maybe I've read that's some of what I think people feel is authentic about it is that it's not like. Like, how would you make that up?

1:13:30 Lemuffin32: Right, exactly. Chris: That's really interesting. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with Bluegrass. That's cool. Have you always been interested yourself in UFO's and abduction stories, or did you just start getting into it because of thorough alien? Lemuffin32: Yeah, that's. It's actually, I never would have seen myself in this position, even just a few months ago. I consider myself pretty much a skeptic on most things, and for some reason. Well, actually, I know the reason. Did you see the 60 minutes UAP segment? Did you ever see that?

1:14:10 Chris: Yeah, that was the one. That was like a month ago. Two months ago. Lemuffin32: Exactly. Yeah. So I seen some UFO and alien stuff before, was, you know, thought it was interesting. Never really was that into it, but, yeah, when I saw that 60 minutes report, all of a sudden something clicked where you're kind of like, oh, there's something to this. Like, there might actually be something there. And then I just dove into the rabbit hole full force and. Yeah, that's kind of. I haven't. Yeah, it's pretty new to me for the most part. Chris: It's interesting that you say that now, because now you're making me think like I've seen other. I feel like I've seen that story several times recently where I've seen it on, certainly in the thorough alien community. I feel like I've seen that. I feel somebody just talked about that yesterday on the discord. And I feel like I've seen a post or two about that as well, where people have said, like, I've never really been into this, but then, like, you know, sort of all of a sudden now because of these things that are coming together. And I don't know if anybody else has mentioned the 60 minutes report, but I mean, that affected me too. Right? Like, I'm a die hard skeptic, just, you know, sort of upfront. But I think, yeah, there's something about the, like recent.

1:15:21 Chris: There's been like this sort of like change in mentality in the culture, maybe. And maybe that's 60 minutes or maybe it's a. I don't know. I'm trying to figure out chicken and egg there. Lemuffin32: Yeah, I think it's. It's part of a whole movement, the disclosure movement, where it's almost getting to the point where it's now almost less. It's almost more unreasonable to not believe in UFO's now, which is a huge change from just a year ago, where saying there aren't things in the sky that we don't know what they are is now the weird position, which again, is totally different than how it was very recently just because of the things that the government's come forth and said.

1:16:08 Chris: Did you read. I guess this is probably a dumb question, but you probably did read the report. Lemuffin32: Oh, yeah. It's really just six pages. It's pretty short. Chris: Yeah. I was like, oh man, I don't know if I. I want to read this. And then I finally downloaded it and I was like, oh, six pages. Oh, that's awesome. Lemuffin32: Right? Chris: Even for my lazy ass, I can read that. What did you think of it? Lemuffin32: I think it was exactly what I expected and what a lot of us expected, where were expecting them to say, these are real objects and we don't know what they are, which is essentially what it said. What was, I think the most interesting for, from a scientific perspective is there was a couple points in there, actually, a specific point where they essentially said, we don't know what these are. And we're waiting for scientific, like a different scientific understanding to understand what these are. Again, I'm paraphrasing, but they're essentially saying that we need a new scientific understanding to know what they are. Again, which is just bizarre for an official government document to say.

1:17:16 Chris: Yeah, I think I. As a. Again, as a skeptic, I actually thought that it was a pretty. What I liked about the report was that there was a lot of like, we just don't know because we don't have enough information yet. Lemuffin32: Right. Chris: There wasn't a lot of, like, stigma either way. There wasn't a lot of, like, well, it's probably not this. Or it was literally just like, hey, we just started studying this. We don't really have good data because we haven't studied it before. So we're recommending that we try to continue to collect more data. And they were talking about using some, you know, machine learning algorithms and that sort of thing. But I appreciated that level of, like, we're not sure, like, let's. Let's look at this more. Lemuffin32: Exactly. And, you know, do you know how many people were on the team that. That made the report?

1:17:58 Chris: I do. I don't know. Lemuffin32: That actually is two people working part time. Chris: Oh, wow. Okay. Well, that explains why it's so short, then. Lemuffin32: And that explains why they're asking for money and resources. Chris: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, like, yeah, that all that makes sense now. I mean, that adds a really important layer of context. Yeah. To the money and resources thing. And it certainly seems like. I totally agree with, like, even with, like, Marco Rubio. Right. If there's stuff in our airspace. Lemuffin32: Right. Chris: I'm not necessarily saying it's aliens, but we should probably understand what it is. Lemuffin32: Exactly. Chris: So back to the sort of more of the abduction stuff versus just, like, ufo stuff. There's something that feels different about this community, and I think you hit on a little bit before, but something. There's some. It feels like there's more skepticism, DNA in this community. Is that something that, like, you've brought into it or.

1:18:55 Lemuffin32: I have worked very hard on making sure that we have a balance between being grounded and being open minded. So in my daily updates, and again, I've been doing this for, like, 45 days straight, I'm just kind of pushing positive vibes, positive perspective, and, yeah, not jumping onto every bandwagon, but not dismissing every bandwagon either. Kind of trying to find that balance where skeptics and believers can come together and discuss these things openly. But, yeah, you're absolutely right. Where a lot of these stories, skeptics tend to be kind of shunned or, oh, you're just being skeptical and they downvote you and ban you or whatever. But no, we're trying to be as open as possible.

1:19:50 Lemuffin32: So I don't want to take entire credit for it because there's a huge community of people who feel the same way, who want it to be as open as possible. But, yeah, I think my attitude and my focusing the conversation has definitely helped keep it grounded. Chris: Yeah, I know. Like, as I. As a skeptic, I think most of. Most of these communities, we've obviously studied, like, a lot of these communities, for sure, not necessarily UFO communities, but, you know, like, online fringe counterculture type. And this is one of the more, like, I haven't felt as comfortable posting in a subreddit in a long time as I have here. Here. I felt comfortable. CAuse I was like, okay. I feel like there's other people here like me. And it also makes, in this weird Way, it made me feel more comfortable, like, you know, kind of like jumping on the Quote unquote bandwagon, you know? Right. And then, like, also hoping, like, I hope I'm wrong, you know?

1:20:46 Chris: Like, I kind of go in there going, like, I'm super skeptical, but I feel comfortable being in this community and, like, hoping, along with everybody else, that something rad happens on the 18th. Lemuffin32: Oh, exactly. I think we've done multiple polls, and I think it's about 80% of the community says I want it to be true, you know? Chris: Yeah. Lemuffin32: Like, I hope it's true, and then about 10% say it can't be true, and about 10% say, I know it's true. You know, that's more or less the makeup, but, yeah, I mean, I hope something Cool happens, too. I mean, but, like, I keep reiterating to the community, don't make any life changes. Don't put all your eggs in this basket. Every other specific date prophecy in history has been wrong, and there's been hundreds and there's been thousands. And one of them may be right, this one could be right. But we have to keep history in perspective.

1:21:41 Chris: I think one of the points that we'll probably talk about in the show a lot is the goalpost thing, because, personally, that really resonated with me of, like, I think that's one of the main things that, going back to that me feeling safe to, like, post and. And feel like a part of the community was that guardrail. Right. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Lemuffin32: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, one thing that, as you know and I'm sure a lot of your listeners are aware of is a lot of these predictions. Historically, when it doesn't happen, it gets pushed. It happened with Q, it happened with. It's happened with a lot of other predictions. So that's when I became a moderator of the community. That was kind of one of my main goals is to not let that happen with this because I do like the story. I think it's fun. And I am invested in the disclosure movement. If there's something we don't know about aliens or UFO's, I think we should know about it. But with this particular story, I don't want those goalposts to be moved. I have made it very clear. I've made it a rule on the subreddit to do not move the goalposts.

1:22:55 Lemuffin32: So if nothing happens, we're walking away. And I think that's one of the main keys to not letting it kind of descend into a cult like mentality. Chris: Yeah, honestly, I think that is. What's the word I'm trying to look for here. That's, like, part of what gives this community to me its unique flavor. And part of why I wanted to do a show on it is because I feel like you don't see that very often. And it does make thorough alien feel different and unique in a way. Speaking of the goalposts. So let's talk a little bit about July 18, which, again, is only eight days away. As of the time we're talking here, I've seen a bunch of theories on the. On the sub. What do you think? Actually, I have two questions. One, do you think, what do you think is most likely to happen? And two, what do you really hope happens?

1:23:47 Lemuffin32: Yeah, that's a great question. So what I think is most likely to happen, and I think most of the people on the subreddit would agree with me, is nothing. Most likely nothing will happen just because of history failed predictions in the past. It's a huge claim. So most likely nothing will happen. What I hope will happen if all of this is real? Well, there's a couple of theories out there that I love, and I tend to focus on the positive ones. Obviously, I think most of us hope something good would happen if something big is going to happen. There's been talk of these extraterrestrials, or whatever you want to call them, making widespread contact, even if it's just contact, like, let's say, you know, an Et comes down and says, you're part of this great galactic community. You're not alone.

1:24:40 Lemuffin32: That would just change the world in just the most profound ways. I mean, it would change our society, it would change our economy, it would change our philosophy, our religions, our how we view humanity. Hopefully, racism would be gone when we go, oh, wait a minute, you know there's actually aliens. Like what? Why did we care about skin color? This was stupid. Knowing we're not alone in the universe. Would just kind of give us a different view on life. And I think it would generally be a positive thing. So that's kind of what I hope would happen. There's also talks about possible spiritual uplifting. And again, as a skeptic, it sounds nice. That would be cool. But it doesn't hurt to hope in those positive outcomes, for sure.

1:25:33 Chris: Yeah. It's interesting, as you're talking about this, it kind of made especially what you were just saying about what a sea change it would be for society. I've definitely thought about that before and it made me think. I guess I sort of have the mentality I have in the thorough alien community. Just being part of it for a couple days, I guess, is actually pretty reflective of my general outlook. Right. It's just like I, I think it's pretty unlikely that any one individual event is going to happen with regards to aliens, but at some point something will happen and I, you know, and it will be a big positive change and it'll be just like an incredible event. Right. Lemuffin32: I hope that it does well, I think, yeah, absolutely. And I think the reason why this is so appealing, and again, not to be overly negative here, but there are very deep problems in society, not in just this country, in the whole world where we have income issues, people not getting enough food, we have climate change, and people don't feel like they have any power to do anything about these enormous problems of humanity that don't seem to be going anywhere. So feeling like or at least hoping that we have some kind of external savior is not unique to religion. It's not unique to messiah prophecies. You know, with these, hoping that aliens come down is essentially just a slightly more scientific way of hoping for a savior. Again, I hope it's true.

1:27:11 Lemuffin32: I hope that we do have some sort of outside force to fix what's wrong with the world. So I guess all that to say, I hope that. I hope if we don't have any sort of outside savior that we can fix those things ourselves. And I hope that people don't give up on trying to make those changes because they're hoping for the outside savior. Chris: Man, that is such a great point. You know, I've definitely seen that in some of the comments I've read have been of that nature of like, man, I hope the aliens come down and like, shake things up in a good way. Right. I hope that they can come down and help us with this climate problem that's like, we can't seem to make progress on, for some reason. Or it will help shake up. Like you said, some of the income inequality. Like, there's just a lot of things that I think, yeah, you're right. People, individuals feel powerless to effect, but it's like there's so much existential dread behind it makes sense that there would want to be some hope. And I'm so glad that you said that, like, because that was going to be my follow up question until you said it.

1:28:29 Chris: You also hope that if something doesn't happen, that people can still maintain some sense of, like, I don't even know what the right word is, like. Like positive energy or something to help move this ball forward. Even if the aliens don't fix it, right? Lemuffin32: Yeah, because if. Yeah, because if the aliens don't fix it or, you know, we don't have any sort of outside savior, if it really is just us, then we have to do something. We have to take action to fix things ourselves. It's tough because, yeah, like we've said, people do feel powerless to make those changes, but if it really is us, we have to do what we can do.

1:29:10 Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's such a great point. So what is your plan for the 18th, for July 18? And do you also, do you have any plans for after? Like, you know, if a happens, I'll do b, but if x happens, I'll do y type of thing. Sure. Lemuffin32: Well, if something actually happens, I don't even know because there's so many different theories of what could happen. So I guess I'll just have to improvise. But I am going to be camping the night before on July 17 night. Just camping and stargazing and just kind of thinking about. Thinking about if there's anything else out there. Thinking about what et contact would do if it happened. So that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go camping. But the day after, honestly, I'll probably feel at least a little disappointed. Even though I know probably nothing's going to happen. I think the disappointment's inevitable. But, I mean, I have a new job lined up for that day. I have a life. You know, I have things to do. And I hope the vast.

1:30:23 Lemuffin32: I hope everybody in the community and following the story can go on with their life, because after all this is said and done, if nothing happens, this is just a story. Chris: It's funny that you said camping because I feel like I've seen that from multiple posts. I've seen people say they're going to camp. Why do you think that is? Lemuffin32: Yeah, I think it's partly getting outside under the stars because we're talking about aliens and UFO's and such. I think getting out under the stars and hoping you're going to see something, I think that's the big part. I know a lot of people are talking about camping with drugs. I'm not going to do that. Yeah, I'm not going to be doing any DMT or acid or anything like that. But yeah, I think people are out there just hoping they'll see something. And who doesn't like camping?

1:31:15 Chris: Yeah, I feel like the drugs thing is a bit of a hedge because if nothing happens, then at least they'll be high in nature. But like, at the same time, then I kind of go like, but if something does happen, like, I kind of want to be sober, you know, like. Lemuffin32: Right. Chris: So we've talked a little bit about how positive this community is. And, you know, and I will add that from my experience with other conspiracy theories on the Internet with the show, that's no easy feat. It's like, it's really shockingly easy for Internet communities built around outsider secret knowledge to devolve quickly into some pretty ugly places. So as a community moderator, how much of that have you seen in the throwaway alien community, if any?

1:31:59 Lemuffin32: Yeah, there has been, actually. I just put a daily update today about like doomsday and catastrophe posts, basically discouraging them. As a moderator, I don't like the doomsday stuff. I mean, as a person, I don't like the doomsday stuff. But as a moderator, I feel like not allowing it wouldn't, would stifle the free speech a little too much. So it's kind of a hard balance to make. But I think generally the reason why this community doesn't devolve into that completely is the source material through alien's comments never really talks about any natural disaster. It doesn't talk about the end of the world. It doesn't. He just says it's like a shift change. Like the old aliens are leaving and the new ones are coming. I don't really know what else is going to happen.

1:32:50 Lemuffin32: So he says something will be noticeable, that everyone will make contact, whatever that means. So it's not inherently doomsday, it's not inherently negative. But yeah, as a moderator, it is difficult to find that balance of allowing free speech but not allowing too much fear mongering. And I think it comes down to the people involved. I think generally the people are very positive in the community. Chris: Yeah, I've seen that as well. There's a post that you share in your resources section under the heading of, like, maybe nothing's going to happen, like, skeptic stuff. And there is a community member that has talked about, like, hey, here's some of the reasons why it's important to be vigilant and skeptical about some of this stuff. And he did mention some possible, like, anti semitic canards and anti vax Covid denial. Have you seen any of that? Or is that, like, pretty minimal?

1:33:47 Lemuffin32: I've seen a little, but it's pretty minimal. I haven't seen any anti semitic stuff at all on the. On the sub. I. I'm probably jinxing it by saying that, so I haven't seen any of that. Yeah, I've seen a couple anti vax stuff, usually that gets downvoted really badly and people will point out that it's misinformation. So I think we have enough good skeptics in the community to not let that kind of flourish. Chris: That makes sense. So I haven't seen any of that myself, but of course I haven't. You know, I've only been a member of the community for, like, two days. Lemuffin32: Right. Chris: But it does stand to reason that. Yeah. Kayla: With. Chris: With a group of folks that are, like, skeptical but hopeful, you know, like, I hope. I want. I want it to be true. It does feel like that's a pretty good guardrail against that kind of stuff, which is good.

1:34:38 Lemuffin32: Yeah. And I was just gonna say it's a. But you're absolutely right. In the conspiracy world, which I'm fairly new to, you know, if we're looking at a conspiracy, like, okay, the government knows more about UFO's or aliens than they say, okay, that's a simple conspiracy that may or may not be true, but if you go with that, then you start going, okay, well, what else could be a conspiracy? And then you know, you just go. You can go deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole, and it can lead to, I guess, more and more anti science or anti, you know, truth kind of things. Chris: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Like, that's, you know, that's why I mentioned, like, alternate or outside or secret knowledge. Right? Is that right? Once you're accepting the. The framework that, you know, we've been lied to about x and, like, what else have you been lied to? And. And it's hard these days because, like, there genuinely are a bunch of things that we have been lied to.

1:35:29 Lemuffin32: Yeah. Chris: Right. So it's like, it's very hard to pick that apartheid, which I think is, on the flip side, makes it very easy then to fall down that rabbit hole, as you say. Lemuffin32: Exactly. Yeah. Chris: Normally I'd finish up by asking, like, so is this a cult or not? But instead, I think this time it's maybe more appropriate to ask, do you think that some of your moderation techniques, like the goal post stuff, could help other online communities sort of bulwark against cult like, destructive tendencies? Lemuffin32: Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, goalposts really important. If a community cares about not becoming a cult, some will. That's their goal. But, yeah, if you want to prevent that, then absolutely create a goalpost. Create a, you know, be clear about the size of the goal, what you expect to happen, and, yeah, not allowing blatant misinformation or clearing it up or, you know, I think we're lucky because we have a lot of good researchers and good skeptics to point out when something's misinformation. But, yeah, the goalposts. The size of the goal and, yeah, being clear. Being clear about what you're about.

1:36:42 Chris: Yeah. I liked you had a pie. Maybe it was yesterday or the day before, but not only do you have a rule of don't move it, but you also are clear about, like, what the goal looks like. Because I think that's another danger, is not just moving it in time, but also, like, in space. Right. Like is. Well, maybe the goal, you know, maybe the initial thought was that there'd be widespread alien contact. But, you know, what if something small happens? Right. That's, like, more likely to be in the middle. So, like, what do we count as a. Lemuffin32: Exactly, you know? Chris: Yeah. Lemuffin32: Yeah. That's something we kind of predicted way, you know, right at the beginning. You know, some people are going to say this happened secretly in the background, and, you know, that's just. It's just going to happen. Some people will think that, and there's no way to prove that wrong. Right. So I think just being clear about, you know, if it isn't exactly what we're expecting, we'll just walk away. You know, you can believe whatever you want, but we're not going to continue the story.

1:37:41 Chris: What was throw alien's actual prediction? Like, what did he actually say about July 18? Lemuffin32: Sure. So he basically said that the only things he was sure of was that based off of his abductions and what the aliens apparently told him was that they were leaving July 18, 2021. And he was apparently told this over seven years ago, that a new group was coming and that essentially we'd get widespread alien contact. And then on his most recent post, he said something changed. Not sure what it is, but it's still all happening. So that's what I think. That's one of the reasons the story is so compelling, is it leaves so much room for speculation of what could happen. So, yeah, we don't really know for sure, but if it's anything short of life changing and everybody in the world knows about it, then, yeah, we're moving on.

1:38:35 Chris: Widespread definitely is a pretty good adjective. I think if that's the indication that he got. You know, I think that'll be a good way to kind of say, like, it's either widespread or it isn't, you know? So that makes sense. Before we go, just a quick question. Would you be willing to talk to us again after July 18? Lemuffin32: Yeah, that sounds fun. Chris: Obviously, if we get, like, alien Yahtzee on the 18th, probably like an all the major. Yeah, you'll be on, like, CNN and everything. But if you're available, I'd love to chat with you one more time to get your, like, you know, post event thoughts. Lemuffin32: Yeah, absolutely. Chris: And then. And then last thing that I always just ask is if there's anything that you want to say to our listeners that I haven't asked you about or if you have something you're working on you want to plug just, you know, free form.

1:39:26 Lemuffin32: Yeah, I would just say, I'm sure most of your listeners are going to be in the skeptic group, so I don't have to warn you against jumping into cults or anything like that. But, yeah, I will say, keep an eye on what's going on with the disclosure movement. Something could be out there. It's interesting. I'm a skeptic myself, and this could be the biggest story in history. It's worth looking into if you're interested in it. We might not be alone in the universe. That would be really cool. So, yeah, don't be afraid to look into it. You're not crazy. If you do a little research into UFO's, there might be something out there.

1:41:34 Chris: Thoughts. Kayla: So many. Chris: So many thoughts. Say one of them. Kayla: My main thought is, I really like how that conversation was, like, kind of mostly about how to not have your group turn into a cult. Chris: Yeah, I liked that, too, actually. Kayla: And I just like how just, like, chill and positive this community seems. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Nice place. Chris: I know. And I know I sort of said something similar about Tartario when I did that a couple episodes ago. Kayla: That's less nice than this. Chris: Yeah. I just want to, like emphasize Tartaria is nicer than. I was kind of grading it on the QAnon curve a little bit because that's what we had just done. QAnon and anti vax Tartaria is much better than that. But this is, like, even more like. Tartaria definitely had some problematic posters and problematic folks ideas. And even that guy, actually, the youtuber that I talked about, I've seen some of his Twitter stuff, and it's gone.

1:42:30 Kayla: The anti vaxx route. Chris: It's, you know, the whole package kind of. I still like some of his YouTube videos where he walks around and points at things. But anyway, point I'm trying to make here is this community is much. Is actually, I think, a positive vibe, good skeptic, like communIty. Kayla: Right. I want to hang out there. Chris: Well, I definitely think that you and I should do something on the 18th. We should hang out with them in spirit. Kayla: Have to do something. Chris: Yeah, let's. So I don't want to, like, brainstorm here while we're taking valuable time from our listeners. So why don't we think about what we're gonna do, and then we'll just, like, post about it on social media. I'll go post about it and throw away in my username on Reddit is panda combat. So I will post about what we're gonna do. Maybe we'll just. Maybe we'll do the same thing EverYBODy else is doing. We'll just, like, go outside and look at the moon, look at the stars, and contemplate our existence.

1:43:21 Kayla: I do that every night. Chris: Great. Good for you. That sounds very healthy. What do you think is gonna happen on the 18th? Kayla: I mean, I don't think anything's gonna happen on the 18th. Chris: Yeah. What do you hope happens? Kayla: I hope the aliens are real and they come and they fix it. Chris: Oh, yeah. Yes. I would like that very much, too. I think at least, like, you, me, and the muffin, and I think a lot of the folks on thorough alien are probably of the same mind where it's like, probably nothing will happen, but. Kayla: Please, please come and fix it. Chris: Please come and fix everything and also be our, like, galactic friends, be our. Kayla: Buddies, first and foremost, because, you know, we'll want to give you some salt or whatever you want back. Chris: But second, they give salt to us. They don't need salt.

1:44:03 Kayla: Maybe they would like. Maybe it would be nice if somebody thought of the aliens once in a while and got them a gift. Chris: That's true. Thoreau alien probably should have brought them some salt. Kayla: Well, I don't think he should have done anything because he was a tagged animal, and I don't think we expect the animals to bring us presents. Chris: Oh, that's a good point. Kayla: Also, he was being, like, kind of violated, but, yeah, I'm not sure. Chris: Like, that's, like, I want something to happen. Kayla: This makes me be like, we gotta stop doing it to the whales. Yeah, we gotta stop doing it to the whales. Chris: Yeah. So there's that. But the fact that they're doing that was also. It makes me kind of go, like, one hand, I hope they. I hope they come here and fix everything, but on the other hand, I'm like, I don't know. They were not treating some people super awesome, according to him, so maybe I don't hope that.

1:44:46 Kayla: No, but it's a new shift. Chris: I know. Kayla: Maybe they're getting fired. Chris: It might be. I've seen speculation that, like, it's, like, shifts of, like, what's the equivalent of, like, college students in their society, right. Doing studies and then, like, going home and then new people come. New. I don't know. Kayla: I just feel like maybe the aliens realized, oh, the way we've been going about this is very unethical. The only ethical way to do this is to hopefully contact. Chris: I personally think that. I don't think anything's gonna happen, obviously, on the 18th, because this is just one guy's Reddit story. I do think that when first contact does happen, I really don't anticipate that it's gonna be something bad with, like, aliens that want to kill us. Like, there's a lot of really good, rational reasons to think that's not the case. And I already talked about Isaac Arthur's channel, where he talks about, like, how illogical it is to actually, you know, some of these actions that some of these more terrifying aliens take are actually pretty, like, don't really make sense under scrutiny.

1:45:51 Kayla: I want to say one thing. Chris: Do you know we have a podcast? So go for it. Kayla: I know I've been thinking a lot. Chris: Oh, you have? Okay. Yeah. Kayla: Don't think I've been thinking a lot during this about a little movie called signs. Chris: Oh, boy. Kayla: And signs. Chris: Signs. Ultra dumb aliens. Kayla: I think it's a little bit of a bad rap, and I know you think it's symbolic. No, no, let me TalK. Chris: All right. Kayla: Part of that is because. And this isn't a criticism, but I think because it is aliens and not a different kind of supernatural monster. We go, like, not scientifically. Like, we do bring. Like, we do bring the same kind of, like, skepticism to it or science based thinking to it, as we do with all this other stuff. But what I will argue for signs is that in that film, the aliens are a stand in. They're. They're the same as any other supernatural monster. They're monsters.

1:46:57 Chris: Okay, Kayla? Kayla: They're supernatural beings. Chris: If ghosts that were allergic to water came to Earth to take over, I would still think the ghosts were dumb. Kayla: I don't know. If they didn't come to Earth to take over. Chris: They just came to Earth just to harass that one poor family with. Kayla: Okay, well, it wasn't that one family. There were. It was a worldwide thing. What are you talking about? Have you not seen the movie? Chris: Do we need to watch it right now? Yes, but you just said that. Oh, my God. We're not here to talk about signs. Kayla: I'm just saying I think that some of the. What we've been talking about with, like, the way we think about aliens is part of what gives that movie a bad rap. It's very important to talk about. Also. Also agree to disagree. It's a good example of what will not happen. Chris: Yeah. Okay. I will accept that as appropriate context for this episode.

1:47:42 Kayla: Also, the movie signs is really good. Chris: I know you like signs, and I know you're the only one. Look. Kayla: Terrible. Terrible movie for skeptics to enjoy. Chris: Yes. And I think that you make a good point. Kayla: Bad. Chris: Right. And I think that you make a good point that, like, that's a really good example of what probably won't happen. And in similarly absurd ways. You can point to other, like, alien, like, violently aggressive aliens as being illogical. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Maybe not as. Not as absurd as, like, somebody being allergic to water, wanting to take over a water planet. But I. I think War of the worlds, pretty absurd.

1:48:22 Kayla: About just as bad. Chris: Yeah, War of the Worlds was. Was almost as bad. Kayla: Germs. Chris: Yeah, germs. Okay. But all right, this is not a movie review. Let's keep going. Kayla: Germs. Chris: I want to talk about really quick about the goalpost thing, because that was, you know, when you have, like, that moment of, like, oh, I'm gonna do a topic about this. Yes. That was my moment for this. Kayla: That makes sense. Chris: That was my, like, when I read that there. When I read the, like, when I was reading their. Their forum rules and I read that as, like, one of their pillars is like, do not move the goalposts. And then I read about it and I read lemuffins. Not just don't move it, but also don't change it. That was when I was like, this is different. Kayla: This is different. Chris: And so not only did it make me feel safer, as I mentioned to him, in participating, but it also made me feel like this was a topic worth doing on the show.

1:49:11 Kayla: It's also just such a clear indication of somebody actively not trying to exploit something. This isn't somebody trying to create a following or create a movement or create a group of people that they can continuously exploit. Chris: Right. I want to talk about a few other things that we mentioned in our interview that we discussed in our interview, and also something that we brought up on this episode, which is just like, what is it about this? That really strikes a chord. Now, again, Lemuffin answered some of this, but I do want to unpack a few different things. I think a lot of this is just so I can talk a little bit more about, like, the latest UAP stuff, but I think the timing and the sense of authenticity and the prophecy are like the big three buckets of why this is caught on.

1:49:52 Kayla: Right. Chris: Timing. As Lamuffin and I discussed, there's like, this been this widespread gain interest in UFO stuff in the last few years, even in folks who had previously been skeptical or didn't care. There are a variety of factors that contribute to this, but mostly it comes down to the set of videos that were recently declassified, the Pentagon has verified as depicting uaps. And for our listeners, UAP is unidentified aerial phenomenon. I think people know that by now. But just in case, I did not. All right, well, I'm glad I said it. Kayla: Here's the thing. Chris: It's the same as UFO. It's rebranded UFO. Kayla: Admit something on this podcast. Oh, no, I have not followed any of the UFO stuff, like, at all. Chris: I haven't really either until I did the research for this episode. I mean it a little bit because, like, I watched the 60 minutes. No, I know. There's just a lot. There's a lot going on.

1:50:41 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: It's like, I joked with Jatarth when he's on the episode. It's like, you know, the aliens are going to come and we'll be like, oh, man, we're kind of busy. Can you come back when, like, you know, Covid's done and we've maybe got our climate stabilized. Kayla: I also think the other thing is that I'm really afraid of what the UFO's are. Chris: You are? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Really? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Why? Kayla: Because I don't want to get my hopes up that there's evidence of aliens and really just find out that it's weapons that people on Earth are making. Chris: Oh, you're afraid of the. Okay, got it. So you're not afraid of scary aliens. You're afraid of what if it's not that? Kayla: I'm afraid of what if it's not aliens?

1:51:22 Chris: All right, well, let me talk about that for a little bit. So, in addition to those videos, there was also the UAP report that we mentioned that was demanded of the intelligence community by Congress and was delivered on June 25 of this year. And there's just been, like, some synergistic effects around a lot of this disclosure that lead the people and the groups advocating for even more UFO information to be released from the government. And so much so that we have a label for it called the disclosure movement, which Lumafen mentioned. Now, I looked at all this stuff for the episode. I watched the three videos, which I will link to the FOIA document that contained them for your downloading pleasure if you want to be up on the UFO community lingo.

1:52:02 Chris: So you just said you weren't really following this, so this would be perfect for you at cocktail parties. Kayla. The three videos are nicknamed go fast, because that video appears to show an object going fast. Gimbal, because the video is taken on a device set on a gimbal, which. A gimbal is a rotational mechanism, if you don't know what that means. And flir, f l I R, which stands forward looking infrared, which was the device that took that video. Do you want to take a look at those videos? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: All right. Are you recording?

1:52:42 Kayla: Yes. Chris: So what was the first thing that you. The very first steps out of your mouth? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: What were they? What were they? Kayla: One of my looking at. Chris: So. So we turn on a video that is literally a video of an unidentified. Kayla: I know. Chris: Aerial phenomenon. The first thing Kayla says is, what am I looking at? We don't know. Kayla. Kayla: I know. But what I was asking is, there's so many things on the screen. I don't know. What is the. What is the UFO? Because there's, like, a line and another line, right? Dot. There's dots. Okay, so how am I supposed to know which one is the UFO? Chris: That's the instrument reading. Kayla: They're all UFO. Chris: It's the dot in the middle. That is the unidentified bit flying through the air.

1:53:23 Kayla: Okay. Chris: And then all the other things are just, like, little instrument readings. Kayla: Oh, that just looks like a dot. Chris: So, anyway, they're. They're cool videos. Kayla: I think that they're just birds. Chris: Maybe. Kayla: No, they're not. They're clearly unidentified. Flying. Chris: Well, yeah, so I didn't. But again, that means we don't know. Right. Kayla: Unidentified aerial phenomenon. Chris: It's. That's right. It's. UFO's and uaps are synonymous. It's just a rebranding. It's also could pr person. Yeah, basically. But it's pretty unprecedented for the Pentagon to come out and admit that we are seeing on video taken by military personnel are indeed uaps. Like, usually they just wouldn't comment on that kind of thing. But again, can't emphasize this enough. Unidentified means we don't know. It doesn't mean definitely aliens.

1:54:08 Kayla: That's why I'm afraid to look into this, because I'm afraid if it's nothing. Chris: Well, okay, so I'll talk about that once we'll get to that. A lot of the discussion around these videos is, well, there's no technology that we know that could produce speeds that fast or heat signatures that we see on the infrared or whatever. And, you know, because it's military, the source is pretty reliable right now that gets a score of like a partial true score. Because if these objects are indeed crafts of some kind, then I. Yeah, they're doing some very wacky stuff. But also, there are extremely plausible explanations for all three of these that are mundane. Kayla: Oh, tell me them. Chris: And don't require invoking insane physics. Kayla: Tell me.

1:54:48 Chris: I'm not going to tell you them because it gets a little mungy. It's a little esoteric to, like, kind of describe what the way that these could be like, for example, for go fast, that there's an accompanying trigonometric like, okay, this involves, like, a perspective on what we're watching. So I can't really explain that on a podcast, but what I can say is that you should go check out this video that I will post in the show notes that goes through all three of them. You know who made this video? Kayla: One of your YouTube buddies? Chris: Yep. Isaac Arthur, the guy I mentioned before, the futurist YouTuber that I think is also a very good skeptic. Again, though, and part of what makes him a good skeptic is he goes through all of the mundane explanations, and then he also goes through like, okay, what if it wasn't mundane? What would it be then? And he kind of goes through like. And he follows the logic, too. Like, okay, if aliens had technology that it would look like they would have, according to this video, this ability to entirely overcome the second law of thermodynamics, then what they could do with that is like, way more than just flying a craft around.

1:55:59 Kayla: Right? Chris: Like, they could, like, recreate reality. So he kind of goes through some of those. Like, yes, maybe it is this. But then that would also imply that they could make Dyson spheres or whatever. Bottom line for these videos is that we don't know what they are, and it warrants more study. Speaking of which, that is almost exactly what the June 25 UAP report says, which I don't need to go into too much, because we talked about it in the interview. It's only like. Yeah, it's only, like, four to six pages. It's definitely worth a read. Mainly because whoever put it together uses, like, really weird, like, 10th grade PowerPoint style. Like, the formatting of the paragraphs and the text. Like, the headings of paragraphs is really weird. It's like, all of a sudden, it'll be like. It'll be like, blue text.

1:56:41 Chris: It's, like, different font. I don't know. It's weird. Anyway, the content of the report basically says that, yeah, it's worth studying things we don't know about. We don't have enough worthwhile data yet to make legitimate analysis of UAP events, so we need to put more resources towards that. Which, by the way, has fueled a lot of speculation amongst UFO skeptics that this whole thing is one big conspiracy to finagle more Pentagon funding. Kayla: See, that's the other thing that I've been worried about, because I've read those conspiracy theories, and I'm like, I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist, but. Chris: Also, this is going to be. I know. I know. I'm not sure how I feel about that whole thing, but, like, it's a whole other can of worms, so we. We can't dwell on it because we're already running long. So, the thing is, with all this UFO stuff that's been in the news lately and the sense of legitimacy that has been spreading thanks to the Pentagon's verification the videos is authentic. It's been stirring up interest in the subject as we talked about in the interview. Right. And that is even among some skeptics. Even Sam Harris has made some pretty wild statements lately.

1:57:42 Kayla: Oh, shit. Chris: On three different podcasts, he's mentioned that he's been contacted by people in the government that have told him, hey, heads up. We're gonna need your help soon to break some alien news to the public. Kayla: Okay, I'm out. Mm mm. I don't. I don't trust that. I'm sorry. Chris: Why don't you trust that? Because I have more to say. Kayla: I don't know. That makes me sounds fishy. Sounds smelling fish. I don't know why. Chris: Hold that phone. Kayla: Maybe it's because his mom created golden girls. Maybe it's because we're talking about the son of Golden Girls creator, Susan Harris. Chris: Okay, hold that thought. He has even said on each occasion on these podcasts when he brings this up that, oh, man, people who have been skeptics about UFO's in the past are gonna have to eat their words, and it's gonna be a real bad time for them.

1:58:30 Kayla: See, this is not sitting right with me. This is not sitting right with me at all. Chris: So that's why I wanted to say that second part. Because it's that second part that really doesn't sit right with me either. Here's where I'm gonna go. Kayla: I'm literally doing his meditation program right now. And now I kind of feel like next time he's talking to my ear about meditating, I'm gonna go, mm. Sam Harris, I don't trust you. Chris: Yeah, you're starting to feel a little off. Yeah. All right, so let's throw a bit of a splash of cold water on Mister Harris here. Part of what makes people give such weight to his statements is that he's a very famous atheist skeptic and communicator. So if he says something about a topic that is otherwise, like, you know, fringe or counterculture or whatever, then maybe it's not so fringe because of his strong skeptic filter. Right. We're, like, giving credence that. Okay, well, if it's gone through his filter, then it's probably. It's probably good because he's not normally into things like UFO's or whatever. Problem is, number one, as we know, Sam's skeptic filter sometimes malfunctions outside the scope of the episode. But he's also known as llamaphobe, so that's one time that we know that.

1:59:33 Chris: Or for one broad category of things, that his skeptic filter malfunctions. But beyond that, let's just ignore his track record for a minute. As you just said, I. And I get this too. I get a very strong red flag smell coming from how Sam has framed how people will react to whatever news is supposedly coming. He is Sam Harris. He really should know better as to what a skeptic actually is. He really should know better as to how the process of science functions. Right? Kayla: It's not about fucking eating your words. Chris: Exactly. Anytime someone willfully misinterprets skepticism as dogma and not simply a belief filter. It should be a red flag. And that's what he's doing here.

2:00:16 Kayla: Science isn't believing a thing and then doing enough tests until it's true and. Chris: Then being, like, really pissed off when something is counter to those things. Kayla: Right? Chris: Let me explain how it actually works. I don't believe in whatever. Fill the blank, right? Alien contact, God, ghost psychic powers. I don't believe in that thing until I see a standard of evidence for that thing befitting how unexpected or significant the claim is. But once I see evidence for that thing, I go, oh, shit, I was wrong. That's awesome. Aliens are here. Fuck yeah, right? Like, I don't say, oh, man, I was wrong. This is bullshit. I gotta cover my tracks. Like, I don't. Kayla: I gotta eat my words. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Stupid for not thinking of this was real before I had the evidence for it, right? No, you're not stupid. You are never stupid to not believe something before there's evidence for it.

2:01:06 Chris: Right? For that matter, yeah. That's the exact next thing I have written here. I was never actually even wrong because I never said aliens don't exist. I said I don't believe an individual claim about contact with them until I see better evidence than, trust me, bro. And as a skeptic, Sam Harris should be well familiar with everything we're talking about here. So something just, like, doesn't smell right to me. Like, either his own skeptic filter is broken and he's more concerned about making correct predictions than he is about accepting evidence, or he's saying things that he knows to be exaggerations, which makes me wonder, why is he saying these things? It's just weird, right? Like, a skeptic should know there's something. Kayla: Weird to me about, like, people from the government are calling me to help.

2:01:49 Chris: Yeah. Me, Sam Harris, to, like, break the news to the world, translate the. Yeah. Kayla: And, like, Sam Harris is obviously a very influential person. Like, a lot of people know him, but I don't know, it just feels like a weird statement to make. And it just kind of feels like if the government is coming to you to, like, eventually break the news of UFO stuff to the world, like, you're. I don't know, should you then be hopping on a podcast, like, bragging about that or whatever, before it happens? Chris: That's true. Yeah. Because they weren't, like, saying. They weren't saying, please go communicate this now. They were saying like, hey, stay in touch. We're gonna need a consultant, like, to. Kayla: Me, it feels like you're. You're then to then go and do it. To make that statement. You're doing a bad job of the thing that they have supposedly contacted you about.

2:02:36 Chris: Yeah, I actually hadn't thought of that. The thing that. And I guess it's just because I was, like, so taken aback by his, like, man, people are gonna eat their words. I was just like, dude, you should know better, right? You are a terrible skeptic. Anyway, let's move on. Kayla: He is a terrible skeptic, but he. Chris: That is a terrible statement for someone who should know better about how skepticism and science works to make. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Let's move on from him. The important takeaway for the purposes of the discussion, though, just trying to figure out why throw away in is popular and struck a nerve is essentially this timing thing, right? That UFO's and aliens are going viral right now, and the idea that aliens could be around as gaining credit in the social consciousness. The second aspect we talked about, the secret sauce, is the authenticity that readers ascribe to his story. As Lamuffin mentioned, there's no claim of hypnotic regression here, which, if we take that at face value, make the assumption that he hasn't gotten hypnotherapy and he just hasn't disclosed it. If all that's true, then we at least eliminate the suggestibility reason for the abduction narrative.

2:03:38 Kayla: Right. I hope he has, like, gone to therapy, though, hopefully. Especially if his, like, his, like, surrogate daughter has been abducted and taken away forever. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Like, I hope he has someone to talk to about it. Chris: Besides, Reddit also pointed out was the idiosyncrasies of the story of the bowl of salt and the bluegrass. Like, how specific it was. And you even said that, too, earlier, right? Kayla: The doctor, dre. Chris: Right. You said, man, there's something about how specific that is that makes it feel authentic. And I'll add to that. There's. Yeah, just the casual prose that he uses in his post. If you read it does sound like person talking, not a pr machine. And then finally just adding sort of like, the. What does he have to gain? Like, we talked about that a little bit, too, right? So that sort of forms the bulk of this, like, authenticity thing. I think that gives it some power. Now, I'll just say here, the reason I'm kind of bringing some of this stuff up is that I'm skeptical of pretty much every single one of those points. Even if There was no hypnotic regresSion, which, like, again, there may have been, you just didn't say it. These posts.

2:04:29 Chris: There are still plenty of mundane factors that could have generated this experience for him. As we mentioned earlier, stuff like sleep paralysis, as far as the idiosyncrasies go, makes for a really fun story, and they are great community tropes. But, you know, pick a random object to fill in that sentence about aliens giving gifts, and you'd be saying the same thing, right? Like, you'd be saying, wow, it's crazy that the aliens gave him a backpack full of only blue legos each time. That's so specific. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: Or like, oh, I can't believe they gave him charred coconut husks carved to look like a Bea Arthur action figure. Kayla: Why'd you say bea Arthur? Is it because Sam Harris mother is Susan Harris, the creator of Golden Girls? Chris: Oh, my God. Synchronicity, Kayla. Oh, no. But, like, I could go all day with oddly specific things. Right? The point is, oddly specific doesn't mean that it's necessarily more believable. It just means that he picked something random.

2:05:21 Kayla: What I'll say is that it is better storytelling. Chris: Yes. Kayla: Specificity is a true, good storytelling. So if we're looking at this as, like, why is this the thing that took off? The specificity is important in that it makes for better storytelling. Like, when you. In the field that I work in tv, they're always like, can we get more specifics? Can be more specifics. Or it's like, oh, we love the specificity of this. Oh, when the character did this, it was so specific. We love the specificity. So, like, having something that's not just, like, it's set in a town, but, like, this is set in the. The Doctor Phillips suburb of Orlando, and it's on this street. Like, having those specifics is, like, good storytelling. Good storytelling.

2:06:03 Chris: Right. That makes sense. Yeah, for sure. The. You know, we talked about the casual language. Like, that's definitely, I guess, better than, like, script o matic prose. But all that tells me is that a real person wrote it. Kayla: Right. Chris: Not that the real person was actually abducted. Kayla: Right. Chris: And as far as. Kayla: It's not evidence. Chris: Right. As far as. What does he have to gain a. People have done a lot more for a lot LesS. And clout is surprisingly powerful motivator on the Internet. Kayla: If you have not seen the MTV classic series catfish. I know what it's called. Right. Chris: I don't know. The one where the guy pretends to be someone else. Kayla: The one where they go and catch catfishes.

2:06:45 Chris: Oh, right. The guy that got catfish goes around and catches other catfishes. Yeah. Kayla: And just some of those people, like, they're not even doing it for, like, romance. They're Just doing it because they CAn. Chris: Yeah. And HOneSTLY, like, I'm a LittlE surprised that this is a question that people even ask. Like, what does he have to gain? Like, bro, you're on Reddit. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Like, Reddit is literally built on the power of clout and recognition, right between. Kayla: Oh, my God, you just want the karma points. Chris: KARMA points awards. Reddit gold. Being on the front page, right? Like, this dude got a whole subreddit named after him that we, that's like winning Reddit. Kayla: When weRe on the front page of the Internet, I was like, sorry, were on the front page of Reddit. It was like, were on the front page of the Internet.

2:07:28 Chris: Yeah, it was. It was amazing. It was like people were, like, texting me, being like, I think I just saw you on the front page of Reddit. It was like the greatest day of my life, obviously. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: But, yeah, it's like, that's what Reddit is. So, like, of course he had something to gain, obviously. Anyway, that's why I don't really buy any of the authenticity arguments. Sure, there's probably some that I'm forgetting, but those are the reasons why it has resonated with people in that axis. And then finally, of course, there's a prophecy aspect, which we've already mentioned a whole bunch, but it bears repeating one more time and unpacking just a little bit. The prophecy of July 18 brings an awful lot of power to bear here. Right. People in the community have a shared experience around that date. Even you and I are now talking about doing something on that date. Right. They have something to look forward to. And as we have mentioned again and again in previous episodes of the show, they have hope around that date.

2:08:21 Chris: And that's something that lamuffin kept bringing up. Right? Hope. And not just hope, but in the face of some form of desperation around some of the things that are happening. Like, things are kind of a mess right now, and there's so much anxiety around our warming planet, and it's only manifesting itself more and more every year now. And if you're in the us, you have anxiety around income inequality and the fact that a slight injury could destroy your life savings if you're unfortunate enough to be hospitalized to have to fix it so you can start seeing how powerful something is that provides this hope for the future. Kayla: Right. Chris: All right, Kayla, it's that time on the show where we do the thing that people like. You ready to dig into the criteria. Be irresponsible and biased.

2:09:04 Kayla: I love being irresponsible and biased. I'm gonna get that tattooed on my body. Second, do you want my gut assessment? Chris: No. Cause I know what it's gonna be. Let's do the criteria. Kayla: My gut assessment. Chris: I already know it. Don't say it. I already know. Your gut assessment is that this is a cult. No, it's not. Kayla: No, it's not. I could make an argument for it. Chris: Oh, you are such a skilled debater. Why don't you go debate Ben Shapiro? Kayla: If you would debate me, I'd debate him. And I run circles around him because I would just talk really fast. I'm like this, and I don't know. Chris: If you could out fast. Anyway, all right, let's do the criteria. Charismatic leader. I think that, to me, definitely is hardcore. You throw alien. Definitely have a charismatic leader.

2:09:48 Kayla: Huge. Chris: What's interesting about him is that he's, like, an absent charismatic. Kayla: He's deist. Chris: Yeah. And he. Yeah, he bailed. He was like, here are the Ten Commandments. Anyway, I'm off. Kayla: He is a deist leader. Chris: All right, so high. Yeah, high charismatic leader. Okay. Expected harm. Kayla: None. Chris: I don't feel like. I feel like there's expected benefit. Kayla: Like, I mean, there is expected some harm, though, because. Chris: Oh. Kayla: The truth is that everyone, even if you don't think something's gonna happen on the 18th, we're all going to be disappointed. Chris: Well, and also, there are people that are legitimately afraid. So there are people who have posted things where, like, guys, I have a lot of anxiety about the 18th coming up, and, like, people have had to be like, hey, dude, it's going to be.

2:10:32 Kayla: It's a little bit of, like, information hazard. Chris: Yeah, there's definitely some information hazard. Kayla: So I think it's low, but present low. Chris: But definitely, they are, like, 27%. Kayla: I was gonna say, like, 20. Chris: Okay, let's take the average, then. So 23 and a half percent. Kayla: That'd be closer to 20 than 30. Yeah. Chris: Okay. 23 and a half percent expected harm. Presence of ritual. Kayla: Well, it sounded like lemuffin was posting every day, and people are on this. Chris: Well, and there's. In the tropes. Right. So for me, it's the tropes that make are tropes ritual. Yeah, dude, there's symbols. Like, the salt thing is symbolic. Like, people repeat the salt thing a lot. They repeat, like, the salt thing is a trope. The bluegrass thing is a trope. Like, the up vote is a salt shaker. The downvote is a horn, because they hate horns. There's tropes around Gina and jack. There's even a user that's pretending that they're gina. It's like, you, the real gina or something, and posting she's an alien, it's really awesome.

2:11:36 Kayla: So, yeah. I don't necessarily know if I would call it high, though, I think. What's medium? Chris: Well, I mean, they're not like, you know, doing like catholic, like, blood rituals or anything, but. Kayla: What are catholic blood rituals? Chris: Drinking the blood of Christ. Kayla: Oh, that's not what I pictured. That's not what I pictured when you said catholic blood rituals, I was like, invoking nocturnal ritual fantasy here. Chris: No, no. Literal blood rituals, you know. Kayla: No, no. Not any of that crazy Qanon stuff. Chris: No. Just actually drinking the blood. Kayla: Someone. Chris: Yes, exactly. So, I mean, I don't know. Kayla: I guess I wouldn't call it high. Chris: Maybe it's not like Freemason high, but it's so what, half, 50% has it say medium. Medium. All right, fine. Niche. Yes, super niche.

2:12:22 Kayla: Extremely. There's 8500 people. Chris: Yeah. And I think that I would eat, like, even within the greater UFO community. I don't feel like 8500 people is a lot. Especially now. No, no, it's not antifactuality. This is like Schrodinger's antifactuality. Kayla: I don't think it is antifactual because the community is so skeptical. Chris: I think I agree with you, but don't you think there's some, like, come on. This guy's story is probably not true. Kayla: But I don't think you. I don't think you have to think the story is true to be a part of this community. And I bet a lot of the people that are. I mean, when he said it was like 80% would say that nothing is gonna happen, and 10% would say something's definitely not going to happen, and 10% would say something will happen.

2:13:14 Chris: Okay. Kayla: 80% is like, that's right. Chris: And if we put both of us in that bucket of, like, I don't think anything's gonna happen, but I hope it does, then I can't say that I feel particularly anti factual about that. Kayla: Right. Chris: So if most people have that same mentality, then, yeah, I think you're right. Kayla: And then not moving, like, right. It's like opposite of that. Chris: Yeah, I mean, that's. I think that's what that's, again, was the thing that made me go, like, we have to talk about. Kayla: Right. Chris: Life consumption. It's pretty low. Like, there's some people that are like, oh, my God, I'm super scared. Kayla: But, I mean, Lemuffin sounds like he's kind of got a lot of his life wrapped up in this right now. Chris: But he also is getting, like, he's starting a new job. So it's not like. Kayla: But for right now, it was like, he's posting every day. He's really busy with the sub mod. People are going to be, like, going out on a day and, like, I'm just saying it's not zero.

2:14:07 Chris: It's not zero. But I think it's low because, like, as much of lemuffins time as it's taking up, like, again, he's a mod, you know? So I think, like, by and large, people are just. Yeah, I know our people. I don't think people are, like, you know, losing their lives. They're not, like, spending too much time, as far as I'm aware. All right. Dogmatic beliefs. Feels like this is pretty damn low because it's just. Kayla: Same with the anti factuality. Chris: Yeah. There's no sense of, like, right versus wrong, like, in versus out, believe us, or perish. Yeah. And then chain of victims. I don't feel like I was recruited or anything. No, this is just. Yeah. So this is low on most things, except for charismatic leader, presence of ritual.

2:14:52 Kayla: It's like, how do you have. Chris: Oh, in niche. It's niche, too. Kayla: How do you have the fun parts of the cult without becoming a cult? Chris: Yeah, exactly. That's what this feels like. Yeah. And I know your gut was gonna be that it's not. And that was. That was mine the whole time. You know, I feels like we're being disingenuous with theme of the show, though. You know, I'm like, yeah, I knew this wasn't a cult before I did it. Kayla: Okay. But. But going back to that Sam Harris thing, until we sit down and apply our criteria to it, you know, like, that's an important part of it. Chris: Okay, fine. Kayla: It's an important. Chris: Like, you're right. Kayla: I still feel like I need to go through each thing before I can, like, actually feel confident in my assessment. That's why it's like, here's my knee jerk. But I've been surprised by some of my evaluations.

2:15:39 Chris: Yeah, I did call. I did call Cicada, like, a beneficial cult, which. That surprised me. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: It still doesn't even feel right. But I don't know. Whatever. Kayla: I don't think it's a cult. I don't think this is a cult either. Chris: Yeah, I think this is pretty clearly. Kayla: As dope as get out, though. Chris: Yeah. So there's just a few more things I want to say before we sign off. The first is just reiterating about skepticism that proper skepticism, proper scientific curiosity, is not disbelief. Right. Atheism, contrary to popular opinion, is not saying there is no God. Atheism is saying, I haven't seen sufficient quality evidence yet for a God. So like everything else, it has to sit outside my personal collection of verified beliefs until I do. It's harder to say that than there is no God. But that's really what it is.

2:16:25 Kayla: But I would never say that. Chris: Well, maybe you should. Maybe you should jam all those words. Kayla: No, no. I'm saying I would never say there is no goddess. Chris: Oh, right. Kayla: That is no connection to my atheism at all. Chris: I thought you meant that. I thought you meant you wouldn't say the second one because it was too long. Kayla: I know. I'm glad you have the words for it. Because if somebody was like, well, what's the difference? I'm like, I don't know if there is a difference. Chris: It's that it's a big difference. And that's what it is. Kayla: I don't believe God exists, and I believe God doesn't exist. Chris: Yeah, exactly. And the same goes for literally anything else, including aliens. And contrary to what Sam Harris seems to think, real skeptics love to be wrong. We fucking. Kayla: Oh, I love being wrong.

2:17:06 Chris: Love it. And that's exactly how I feel about throw alien. I haven't seen evidence that lets it into my collection of verified beliefs yet, but I very much hope I'm wrong and that we have a global alien party on July 18. Man, as I said, I will shit my pants twice in the best of ways. Kayla: I think it'll probably be more than twice. Chris: It might be. It might just be like, or not shitting, or I'll just be like, God, I have stuff to do. Kayla: It would just be like, oh, yeah, the aliens. Chris: The aliens. But also, I haven't had my coffee. Kayla: So you want to watch succession? Chris: Yeah, that's what you would. Yeah. Also here, just. I feel like it's important. Theme of this episode is practicing, as we say, practice safe. Woo. Right? If you decide that you want to engage in things like spiritualism, witchcraft, or ufology, that's fine. But remember that you are playing with fire. And actually it's probably more dangerous than playing with fire because fire will just burn your body. But spiritualism has the power to burn your brain. And we've seen again and again on the show, hope is extremely powerful, and it explains the uncanny pull of so many cults that we've studied. Brainwashing may not exist, right? But to the extent that undue influence does, hope is just like this really powerful mind control laser that can be used to control people, even if you aren't aiming the laser yourself. A hope laser is like.

2:18:27 Chris: It's a hard thing to turn off, and it tends to swing around on its own, like the Pied piper's pipe. Just sort of like collecting humans all on its own accord. It can do that. So part of the reason that I wanted to tell the story of throw alien is because I think it's such a great example of engaging with speculative outsider knowledge in a safe way, with how they have the whole goalposts that are both well defined and locked in place. So next time you're engaging with something that is similarly prophetic, ask yourself if your thing has goal posts with the same properties. If it doesn't, well, buyer beware. And final thought. I'm glad we could document something obscure and ephemeral here on the show.

2:19:08 Chris: I always like it when we can bring an interesting, weird corner of the Internet to our listeners attention. And with this corner, it has a shelf life that is expiring on July 18. Kayla: That's the. Like, it's not the coolest part of it, but it's. Yeah, you're right. Like, that's. Chris: Yeah, it's like this weird, ephemeral thing. Kayla: It's. No, it's like. It's the very core feature. Chris: Yeah, it's great. But what I hope doesn't expire is, well, just that hope. For me, the most important takeaway from the throw alien story and its community, and my conversation with the muffin is that it's possible to feed people hope in a way that isn't disingenuous, that incorporates healthy skepticism and guardrails against growing into something more cancerous. And it's something that we are clearly very thirsty for as a society right now. So my hope is that even if and when there isn't a watershed alien event on July 18, that folks in this community will keep envisioning a better world and know that if you keep seeking, eventually you will be found. I'm Chris.

2:20:10 Kayla: I'm Kayla. Chris: And this has been cult or just weird?