S3E6 - The Instructors (Zumba, pt2)

0:00 Kayla: Chris? Chris: Yes, Kayla? Kayla: How have you felt lately? Chris: Terrible. Kayla: Have you. Have you maybe been down or depressed? Chris: I have not had enough fudge in my life. My life has been fudgeless. Kayla: Maybe you've just been anxious or just blue. Chris: Blue? Kayla: You been feeling blue? Chris: I guess. What are you trying to say? Kayla: Well, I have got a cure for you with hash. Step into happy. Chris: Is this about Zumba? Kayla: Step into happy. TM is Zumba's newest trademark way for you to get hooked on Zumba culture and boost your mood. But seriously, step into happy is the newest Zumba tagline. And while I can't quite pinpoint exactly when they started using it, I can't help but think the general global depression that came with the global pandemic had something to do with it. In fact, if you go to Zumba dance, you can find three free trial workouts under the step into happy banner, all designed to lift your mood and your booty. Step into happy is all about transforming your mind, body, and soul, boosting your mood and getting into a happy place. Sounds just like the cure for those pandemic blues.

1:08 Chris: Did you read that, like, from their marketing material directly? Kayla: No, but lift your mood and your booty is from them. Chris: Okay, what if I step into sad? What does that do? Kayla: That's just what we did in March of last year. Chris: Oh. What if I step from that into. From Sadeena into despair? Then what? Kayla: That's. Again, that's what we did in March of last year. Chris: Okay, well, I don't know where the happy door is, so. Sorry. Kayla: Step into happy. The door is Zumba. Chris: Oh, the door is Zumba. Okay. Wow. I feel like they really need to be paying us for this. Kayla: They probably should. Chris: So, wait, are we starting, like, did we start. Did we start the whole episode? Kayla: Yeah, I guess. Chris: Did we start the episode? Kayla: Before we step into our happy place. Chris: We should probably say that is a record start there.

1:51 Kayla: I like to get to it, Mandy. Okay, so that's cool. Chris: Yeah. I mean, it's. We did do a cliffhanger last time. Kayla: We did. Last time. Chris: Last time on. Kayla: On cult. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Or just weird. Chris: Or just weird. Kayla: Which is the podcast that you're listening to. I'm Kayla.

2:44 Chris: And I'm Chris. And we are coming at you from our mobile studio. We are not in our usual Los Angeles location. We are visiting some family. Kayla: We're in Orlando. Chris: Oh, you're gonna dox us like that? You're gonna self dock. Kayla: I feel like I gotta say we're in Orlando because we're close to the home of Zumba. We're close to the Tupperware headquarters. We're close to Amway Stadium, or whatever it's called. Chris: Amway arena. Kayla: We're close to Amway arena. Chris: Close enough. Kayla: We've got Devos's all around us. Chris: We're just literally. I just look out the window and there's just Devos. Kayla: Of Devos ambling around. I feel like if we're gonna record from, like, as cult central as Orlando is, we've got to acknowledge.

3:28 Chris: Oh, okay. But hold on. Like, we usually record from Los Angeles. Kayla: And we talk about it, which is also cult central. Absolutely. We've gone from one cultural center to another cultural. Chris: What do you think is the cultiest city? Kayla: I bet if I googled it, there'd be a really good answer. Salt Lake, potentially. It's probably Los Angeles. Chris: Actually, it's probably La. Kayla: It's probably La. But I don't know if that's just me being like, la is green. Chris: No, LA is wacky. Kayla: LA is pretty wacky. I don't know. Maybe it's San Francisco. I don't know. Chris: San Francisco's pretty wacky. I think LA is the wackiest. Kayla: I think La might be. Chris: Orlando's pretty wacky. Y'all, like, don't. Kayla: There's alligators everywhere just trying to get you to join their down line. Chris: Devos is riding them.

4:08 Kayla: Yeah, that's what Orlando is like. Chris: Yeah, it's pretty. It's pretty wild out here. But anyway, yeah. Welcome to culture. Just weird. I'm glad, actually, that we're. We are jumping into it because you left us with a really juicy cliff. Speaking of juicy juices, getting the juices flowing. It was a juicy cliffhanger. Kayla: It was. Chris: And I want to know more about zin. You promised me some zins. Kayla: I did. Chris: And I've been without zin for two weeks, and now I want some zen. Kayla: And we have got it for you. Chris: I don't. What is. I don't remember what it is, though. What's zin? What does it stand for? Kayla: As you'll remember from last week's episode. Episode. Chris: Episode. Kayla: Episode Xin stands for Zumba Instructor network.

4:49 Chris: I did not remember that, but thank. Kayla: You, and we'll get to that. We'll get. Chris: This is us getting to that. Kayla: We've gone two weeks, so, you know, obviously we're talking about Zumba, but I feel like we need to set up the topic again. Like, just. Chris: All right, give everyone. Well, first of all, if. If this is your first episode, you should probably go listen to last week's episode, which was part one about Zumba, and then this is part two about Zumba. Kayla: Is it a cult or just weird about Zumba? So, Zumba is obviously the latin inspired dance fitness craze with thousands of instructors and millions of followers all over the world. Chris: And three Arturos. Kayla: Are you serious? Chris: What? Kayla: Three Albertos.

5:30 Chris: Oh, excuse me. Kayla: Oh, my God. Chris: Oh, no. I'm sorry. How should you cut that? Probably I'm gonna sound like an absolute moron. Kayla: Dare you disrespect the Albertos. Chris: I'm sorry. It starts with an a, ends with an o. Alberto. Arturo. Kayla: Alberto. Chris: It's Alberto. Okay. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Three Albertos. Millions of students, thousands of instructors. Kayla: Three Albertos. Chris: Three Albertos. Kayla: It was created as a kind of spiritual successor to Jazzercise by our first Alberto Beidou Perez. And he, along with Alberto Perlman and Alberto Aguion, founded Zumba Fitness LLC and have expanded the enterprise to include not only the dance classes and the trainings for teachers, but also a clothing line, video games, cds, and more props on.

6:16 Chris: The video game characters you made for our Patreon subscribers. Kayla: By the way, I'm taking a break here, honestly, to plug our patreon. Www.patreon.com culturjisweirden. If you've been on the fence about joining our Patreon, you're gonna want to get to it now, because I created little rpg characters for a Zumba RPG, and they're so cute and animated. Go look at them right now. Chris: That's the reason. That's the reason to give us money. Rpg sprites. Kayla: So where we left off in the last episode, were just about to dive into the real cash cow of Zumba Fitness LLC, the Zumba instructor network, or Zinnipe. Also TM. Okay, now, you asked me many times last episode if Zumba was an MLM, and I said no. The answer is still no.

7:07 Chris: Okay? Kayla: But I want you to keep that in mind as we continue this discussion. Just keep. Keep that question. Chris: I've had it in mind for the last two weeks, Kayla, so, you know, my. Here's my. You want me tell you my guess? Yeah, my guess, or at least based on what you've told me in the last episode, is that it has some similar elements, but it's not MLM because it's not a full, pyramid. It's not like recruit, recruit, downline. It's just. It's, like, only a few layers. Like, it still has, like, it definitely feels like it still has that, like, salesy, you know, promises of riches and. Yeah, yeah. Prosperity gospels, slash, you know, feel goody, sort of like inspiring seminar type feel. It has that, but the thing I think it's lacking is the geometric growth of infinite downline.

8:00 Kayla: That's. Yeah, keep that in mind. Okay, before we dive into the Zumba instructor network. Sorry, God. I want to read you some quotes, and quotes are cool. My research has come from everywhere. From an inc.com article, the independent from Reddit, from Glassdoor, from the Zumba website itself, a bunch of other places. So these quotes have been sourced from across the Internet. Zumba is my everything. It is my income, my workout, and my social life. Another quote. Chris: That's life consumption right there. Kayla: It's kind of like a miracle. Another quote. It was the vibe of the class, the permanent joy and happiness that was filling the room, the sense of empowerment that I never felt before. Ritual Zumba is where you get to be yourself. It opens your spirit.

8:51 Chris: Ew. Empowering people to be themselves. Terrible. Kayla: Terrible. I am a living testament that hard work and a changed mind saves lives. I love going to class with a friend because together, I believe we are stronger and we can help cheer each other on. Zumba has saved my life. Chris: Okay, so these all sound pretty positive. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Like, the first one definitely sound a little, like, creepy, consuming. But even that last one about saving life, I mean, you know, sometimes people are in bad places and takes a particular thing to absolutely jolt them out of it. So that thing could be Zumba. Kayla: I know. I think it's interesting that you immediately went into, like, a place of negativity with these quotes.

9:32 Chris: Hey, just like I said, just for that first one. After that, I was totally down with it. Kayla: That's true. Chris: It was just that first one that was like, Zumba's my whole life. It's everything to me. Kayla: Right. Well, as you can probably tell, these are all quotes from Zumba class participants or certified Zumba instructors who are part of the Zumba instructor network. Resin. Maybe it's not explicitly stated, but evangelism absolutely seems to be a big part of Zumba's mo, how it gets people coming back to classes, how it gets folks interested and invested in becoming investors in becoming instructors. And maybe it's not the same kind of proselytizing you'll see with mlms, you know, huns trying to get you involved as a seller so they can get you into their downline like you were talking about. You're gonna make tons of money. But there is a kind of evangelism that is there. Zumba has saved my life. That is, whether you take a positive or negative spin on that, it is very intense messaging.

10:28 Chris: Sure. Kayla: And you'll kind of see that style of messaging a lot. You know, Zumba instructors on Instagram showing off extreme weight loss, crediting it to Zumba, showcasing their lives full of fun and fitness, wearing their clothes, you know, being with their friends, having a social aspect to it, their branded clothes. I mean, I've definitely tried to get my friends to do Zumba with me. I got. Chris: You have done, right. This has happened on the show, but. Kayla: The evangelism whole, it goes deeper on Zumba's website. When you explore around, you'll be met with copy, like, pretty much the most awesome workout ever. Dance to great music with great people and burn a ton of calories without even realizing it.

11:10 Chris: What's wrong with that? It's not that bad. Kayla: The class that started the dance fitness revolution and changed the way we look at workout forever, it's fun, effective, and best of all, made for everyone, even. Chris: Those of us that are pretty uncoordinated. Kayla: Licensed Zumba instructors help people let loose and achieve their health goals like never before. They move and motivate, energize and inspire. Okay, I'm not saying anything negative about any of this copy. Yeah, it is. To me, it's intense. There's a lot of intensity there where it's like, this is the best. It's the most awesome thing ever. It's great. It's for everyone. Like, it just. Chris: There's a lot of superlative language, for sure. Kayla: It's very intense. Chris: To me, however, marketing copy tends to be superlative.

11:55 Kayla: True. Correct. Chris: Okay. Okay. All right. Kayla: So this is all pulled from the Zumba website. The Zumba website is expansive. There are obviously about sections. Find a class sections, meet the instructors, the various places to buy the clothing, frequently asked questions, policies, etc. Etc. Etcetera. But eventually, if you spend a little time on it, you will find yourself funneled into the. Become an instructor section and then the Zumba instructor network. Chris: Is that when I have to wear a blindfold and go into a room and that's. Kayla: Yeah, that's when you get branded. Chris: Okay. Kayla: God, I want to get branded. No, I don't. I'd like the option. Chris: Cult are just weird. Does not endorse branding. You just want to feel wanted.

12:36 Kayla: I want to feel like I'm a part. This is why I would absolutely be susceptible to a cult. Chris: Ooh, should. Oh, that's another monetization idea. Write that down. Cult are just weird. Brand I bet we could get someone to do it. Kayla: I wouldn't want that to happen. It's not good. We're not making fun of any NxIvM survivors out there. Chris: Like the. Like, the shitty little paint logo that I made, and all of a sudden, it's, like, on somebody's ass. Kayla: I'd get it on mine. So first, how does one become a zumba instructor? Well, like we talked about in the previous episode, you have to go to a training. Remember how we talked about how, like, they were holding trainings in Miami and people keep coming back? You do have to go to those trainings. And, you know, obviously, Beidou is no longer the only one doing trainings. There are instructors that are trained to do the trainings.

13:19 Chris: Right? Kayla: So you can get, you know, trainings from a Zumba education specialist or ZesTM. Chris: Now, if I. Sorry if I remember from last time, the training, the graduation criteria was quite lenient. Kayla: You. You pay the money, and you go to the training, and then you are certified. Chris: So they did away with the tests entirely, or they just graded it? Kayla: There was never a test. Chris: They decided not to test. Kayla: There was never a test. They thought about doing a test, and they were like, we'll just let the market sort it out. If somebody's a bad zumba teacher, the market will sort it out. Chris: The market decides. Kayla: If you show up, if you pay us the money and you take the class, you are a certified Zumba instructor. Chris: Thanks, invisible hand.

13:59 Kayla: So now it's even easier, because obviously, in this digital age and in this pandemic age, you can either do a ten hour online training for dollar 290 or a full day in person training for dollar 315. Chris: Wait, is this only different by $25? Yeah, one's online and one's in person. Holy shit. Wow. Kayla: Okay, so like I said, the trainings are led by Zumba education specialists. Every z es is handpicked by Beidou himself, and they are considered to be the best zumba teachers in the world. Okay, when you set up to be a Zumba instructor and do one of these trainings, you learn the basic steps to the four zumba core, meringue, salsa, kumbia, and riggitan. Chris: Did I do those things? Were those things I was tripping over?

14:41 Kayla: Remember the, like, step, step that I taught you? Like, one, two. Chris: Oh, they're like, in, out, in, out. Kayla: Yeah. That's like a salsa rhythm. Chris: That's salsa. Kayla: Okay, I think so. Chris: I like salsa, but I usually, you know, tomato and tomatillo, especially. Kayla: Oh, my God. Using the zumba formula. You learn how to identify part different parts of a song and apply the basic steps to build an effective Zumba class. You will learn cueing and interactions which the queuing how. It seems very standardized, where it's like when you take your first class, you're like, I don't know what the fuck he's doing with his hands. But then you take your 3rd, 4th, 5th class, you realize, oh, that's a cue. That's a cue, that's a cue. That hand movement he's doing, that's a cue. He's putting his hand to the left with three fingers. That means we're going to go. We're going to step out to the left three times, right. You have to pick up on those cues.

15:25 Chris: Yeah, well, a normal person would. I would still probably just keep tripping. Kayla: Learn the three types of zumba queueing and how to lead effective and fun in capital workouts. You will practice live with a Zumba education specialist to gain confidence to teach sooner than you will receive your license to begin teaching Zumba classes immediately and the ability to take further trainings in order to get certified in specialty Zumba classes. Learn more advanced Zumba training in queues and more. Pay attention to these next two ones. You will get access to even more tools to help you start teaching faster and changing lives sooner. And you will get the opportunity to receive monthly choreography and music and ongoing support. Chris: You will get the opportunity to give us more money on a monthly basis.

16:06 Kayla: Yeah. What does that mean? Get access, get opportunity, ongoing support. Chris: Yeah. No, that just sounds like a money pipeline. Kayla: That, my friends, is the Zumba instructor network. Chris: That's what that. Okay, finally, here we are. How long are we into the episode here? Kayla: Oh, it's only 20 minutes in. Chris: That's not bad, considering you promised me two weeks ago. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: All right, so the Zumba instructor network is the ongoing, quote, unquote support, but on the DL. Give us more money or you haven't said that yet. That's just. Kayla: We'll keep going. We'll get to that. Chris: All right. Kayla: The Zumba instructor network is, quote, a monthly membership program created to give you ongoing support and tools for success. So basically, when you attend a Zumba training, you're given a one month free access to this network, and after that you pay dollar 30 a month for continued access. Okay, all right, I'm so the Zumba instructor network gives you new music, new choreography, new teaching techniques, peer to peer support videos and more, but.

17:06 Chris: Okay, so it sounds like there's some true value out there. Kayla: Right there is. And we'll. We'll get kind of really deep into exactly what you get by being in the Zumba instructor network. But, yeah, I don't. I don't want to present this as, like, you just give them $30 and you fuck off. It does seem like there is actual support involved. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: But it's also important to note that being in good standing with Zinnipe also keeps you certified as a Zumba instructor. If you opt to not continue paying for Zin membership, your Zumba instructor certification will only be good for six months. So you either pay $300 every six months for a couple days of training, or you pay dollar 301 time and then dollar 30 every month after that to keep your certificate active.

17:50 Chris: Okay. So it's not just support. It's also, you kind of have to. Kayla: Do it if you want to keep your certificate. Certificate. Your certification active without having to go to do another training. Another training. Chris: Another training, which is cheaper. Kayla: I think it really depends on how you look at it, because if. Okay, for example, say you'd like. There's different ways to look at this. If. Chris: If you're a diamond member with. Kayla: Hold on. Wait, hold on. Chris: Oh, okay. Kayla: You're. So the certificate, your first certificate you get. It's only good for the level of training that you've done. So if, for example, you'd like to get certified in Zumba for kids or a higher level of choreography or. Remember how we talked about the different kinds of zumba that they're like, aquazumba, strong nation.

18:35 Chris: Can I get space Zumba? Kayla: Yes, space Zumba. Eventually, Jeff Bezos will have that. So if you want to get certified in those different things, you will have to pay the $300 for each new level on top of that, $30 a month that you'll be paying. So it's not like either you can. Chris: So there's levels. Oh, man. Okay. Kayla: There's lots of different ways to give them money and lots of. Then lots of different ways to expand your zumba practice as a business. Because let's say you're a guy. You want to teach Zumba. You have basic zumba training. Great. Maybe you're like, I want it. You know, I have grandmas coming up to me asking to take zumba classes, but my zumba classes aren't right for them. I'll do a Zumba gold training, and then I'll be able to expand my classes. I'll give them $300, and I'll be able to teach these classes. Oh, I have weightlifters that are like, I want to take Zumba, but I also want to be strong. Oh, I'll do the training, and then I'll. So, yes, you are expanding your ability to teach classes, but you are paying for that training each time.

19:33 Kayla: Paying for the Zen each month doesn't cover those additional trainings. Chris: Oh, okay. I mean, I. It's really hard for me to say without, like, having, you know, prospectus or something in front of me, but it doesn't sound that really nefarious to me yet. Like, I get. I get the idea of needing to spend more money for a qualitatively different style of training. Kayla: Right? Yeah. I'm not saying that fitness instructors shouldn't pay for education and training, you know, but I will also say the money does add up. And if, say, you are in an area where there are 100 other Zumba instructors, you might find that your area is tapped out and you do not get the return on investment that you were hoping to get.

20:16 Chris: Oh, man. Kayla: I would also like to read a quote for you from the Ink article I quoted a number of times in the previous episode titled Zumba Company of the year, written by Leigh Buchanan. Zumba's core products are also its core customers, the instructors themselves. Zumba doesn't make money by helping people get fit. It makes money by preparing people for a trade, by licensing and supporting the folks who teach zumba classes. Some of those instructors teach part time for fun and extra cash. Others find jobs with gyms, and still others start businesses. Although the Zumba economy isn't big enough to ding the unemployment rate, it has created many thousands of jobs beyond its walls. This is all about the instructors, says Alberto Perlman. Everything we do is to drive people to their classes so they can be successful.

21:06 Kayla: So I feel like you can come at this thinking like, oh, it's an MLM. It's a scam. Get away. But also, it's like. Or is it just a school? Chris: Right? Kayla: Is it just a training program? Chris: The more you say, the more it kind of feels like that. Like, even though it would totally suck to, you know, spend a lot of money on a certification where there's just saturated in my air and whatever, and I can't get customers because there's just too many instructors, it's. That's because individual people are going to sign up to become instructors and take the training, not because there was some structural thing that was, you know, pushing me to recruit two people. To recruit two people. It does still suck. I mean, it would maybe be nice if the company provided some sort of, like, infrastructure. Yeah. Something that wasn't just like, moon, here's your certificate. Go fuck yourself. Like, if they provided some sort of, like, hey, there's already seven instructors in your area, so maybe you should focus online.

22:07 Chris: Or there's seven regular instructors, but there's no gold instructors. So maybe do that. Something to kind of, like, aid you in that business process, since that's kind of what they're setting you out to do. Kayla: But I feel like. I feel like a lot of places. Chris: Should do that and don't. Kayla: It's like, that's a systemic issue. It's like, yoga works. Should do that. Pilates certification. It feels like there should be more help for. If somebody comes to you and takes your training so that they can have a career, and you are promising, like, take our training, you'll have a career. It feels like overall, there should be some. Implement, implementation of a help with that transition. Chris: Right. Kayla: And I think that we kind of experience a lack of that in a lot of our educational institutions, whether it's, you know, your Pilates certification or the college that you went to, or maybe even zumba, where it's just kind of like, oh, you got your degree luck.

23:03 Chris: Right. That's true. That's maybe not. Yeah, that's a good point. That's like a societal thing, not a zumba thing. Kayla: It's a societal thing, not a zumba thing. I like that. Chris: Is that our. Is that the blurb for this episode? It's society's fault? No, but you do make a pretty good point, I think. Like, it's. That's. You know, if we. If were to ding zumba for that sort of thing, then maybe I should also ding the University of Pennsylvania for that sort of thing. Kayla: Right. You know, do you feel like you had any sort of, like, what. Did you feel like there was help with your transition from college? Well, I guess you went and did more college. Chris: Yeah, I did more college. So, actually, I'm trying to think of the transition from my graduate school program. I mean, both. Both colleges did feel. I mean, they had, like, career fairs and they had, you know, like, job counselors, and they had that sort of thing.

23:53 Kayla: Oh, that's nice. Chris: So there was a lot of that going on, and I. And I also feel like both of the schools I went to, I'm pretty lucky in that they have a pretty robust alumni network. Kayla: Right. Chris: And that's a big part of, honestly, of why you go to a college like that, is that you have these alumni networks that are like, oh, hey, you went to such and such school. Oh, well, totally. Come work for us. Even though you're a piece of shit, nobody cares, right? I don't know if my experience there is necessarily the norm, but I'm also not sure that I got the type of thing that we are talking about here on the show today, which is not so much like alumni network. It's more about providing the hands on guidance, tools and information, like these people. Maybe these instructors may benefit from data about other instructors and interested students, but I don't know. It's like you said, man. Like, Zumba is there to teach the instructors, not. Not their customer is the instructor, not the dancer.

24:56 Chris: So I don't know. It's tough. Tough call. Kayla: Here's what basic income. Chris: Ubi. That's it. Let's do that. Kayla: Here's what I think I want to do for the bonus content. I want to interview my sister, and I want to see how her Pilates and yoga certification programs stack up against this. How similar? How different? Chris: Okay. She says, no, we're gonna edit this out of the show. And no, no, I'm not. Kayla: This is not for the episode. Chris: And if she says yes, then you'll hear this in the episode. Thank you, Kayla's sister. Kayla: So, for Zumba Fitness, LLC, like an MLM, they don't make their money on their quote unquote product. They don't make their money on the fact that they made Zumba. Chris: Mm. Kayla: They make their money on selling the ability to sell their product. They make their money from their instructors. I mean, like, I want to say it again, they make their money from their instructors. And it's not just with the trainings in the Zumba instructor network. Remember how we talked about the Zumbaware line? I read multiple instructors and former instructors who lamented online that there was intense pressure for Zumba instructors to constantly purchase the latest designs and trends being sold in the Zumba wear line. As a part of Zumba instructor network, you do get access to discounts on Zumba Ram products, and you are heavily encouraged to constantly adorn yourself with that Zumba branding. So it's not just about instructors paying for classes and training. It's also about the instructors paying for further products that serve to evangelize for the company.

26:21 Chris: Yeah, I was going to say Zumba Sulu was wearing Zumba stuff. Now, was that. Did you just buy that for himself? That wasn't like a. Kayla: That's not provided to him. Chris: That's not provided. Kayla: As far as I know from the business structure. You know, maybe there's a difference with some of these high level teachers, but in general, it's. I work, you know, I teach Zumba. Zumba. You know, I should buy the Zumba clothes. Chris: All right. Now I'm not so sure there's even. Kayla: A rewards program for Zin members who purchase enough Zumbaware products. Zumbaware Insider. And I'm just going to read you the blurb from the website. Zumbaware Insider is a loyalty program exclusive to Zin members for our top Zumbaware lovers. The program was co created with some of your fellow Zin members to create an experience tailor made for you. Our biggest fans, Zumbaware enthusiasts located in the United States, are eligible for membership upon reaching a spending minimum starting at dollar 500 on purchases made while logged into their Zin account over the past twelve month period.

27:22 Chris: So $500 within twelve months. Kayla: Zumbaware insiders fall within three tiers, with each tier receiving unique perks. I do not spend $500 on regular clothes in a. In a year. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I know that, like, there are a lot of people who do. Chris: It's also water bottles, Kayla. Kayla: That's a lot of money to me for that to be the starting. Like, the minimum $500. Chris: It's like 50 water bottles. Kayla: It's a lot. And, like, I know that we have to buy clothes for our jobs and most of us have work wear versus. But it's just. Chris: But is it only clothes and water bottles or is there like a Zumba Ferrari? Because that would knock you over the. Kayla: I don't think there's a Zumba Ferrari. Chris: Okay. Kayla: As far as I know. Chris: I mean, I'm just saying if there's more big ticket items, I don't think the zumba wear. Human trafficking.

28:03 Kayla: I don't think zumba wear is about zumba cars. Chris: Oh, okay. It's mostly clothes and water bottles. Kayla: Yeah. Okay. I also don't want to say again, I'm gonna do a lot of flip flopping on this episode because I still. Chris: I am, too. I'm sitting over here going, yeah, I. Kayla: Don'T want to say that money moves like this are exclusive to Zumba. Like, yogaworks, for example, has a yoga certification program that I'm pretty sure includes. Includes discounts for yoga works branded wear and products for its teachers. Like, if you are yoga works certified, then, like, oh, you get a discount on this yoga works shirt. I know. Chris: But then you're. Kayla: It feels uncomfortable when a fitness company like this, like, it sells a dream to its customers of, like, wealth and riches and be your own boss and make a living teaching this movement. And they're also selling you shirts.

28:51 Chris: Yeah, that part definitely feels weird. Actually, I was gonna ask you, like, do you think that if you are a Zumba instructor, what did you buy from Zumba, LLC? Did you buy expertise, or did you buy their brand? Kayla: Right. Chris: Or did you buy both? Kayla: Yeah. I wonder if there's any, like, people out there who maybe do some Zumba trainings and then go teach, like, latin jazz. Chris: So that's. I was gonna ask. Actually, my follow up question was gonna be that. It was gonna be, can I just teach something without being certified? Kayla: You know, you can't teach Zumba. Chris: No. That's where you want to buy Pumbaa. Kayla: But that's where you're talking about. You're buying the brand, because, like, if I'm looking at my, you know, local, like, some place to take a class, and I'm. I see there is. At 12:00 there is latin jazz, and.

29:38 Chris: At 1230, there's Zumba, and at 1240, there's Chris's discount. Kayla: I doomba. Chris: Step back and forth a thon. Kayla: I'm probably clicking on the zumba. Chris: I think mine was pretty solid, but whatever. Kayla: No, we're not. We're not learning from you. Chris: Okay, so then in that case, you. You're absolutely buying the brand. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And then that feels weird. If the brand power is what gets them sales to their instructors, then if their instructors are pimping their brand, that just builds their. Anytime you're doing something brand accretive, it helps. Zumba, LLC. Kayla: Right? So the instructors are not getting paid for being walking advertisements. They're paying to be walking advertisements.

30:18 Chris: I don't. I don't like paying the company to advertise for them, but I always. Kayla: And this is totally not in this go for this podcast, I have always felt weird about, like, heavily branded clothes because I never under. Like, I know that it's like, oh, you know, brand recognition and, like, you know, you want to have Gucci on your shirt or whatever because you're. You're signaling something. But I always felt weird about buying a shirt from Abercrombie and then wearing the shirt that says Abercrombie and advertising for the company with a shirt that I paid for. It just always, but at least feels weird. Chris: It's about the clothes, right? At least Abercrombie is we make clothes. So here you go. Whereas Zumba is not. We make clothes. Zumba is. We make awesome, you know, dance workouts.

30:59 Kayla: Right. Chris: And then the clothes are incidental to that. And so that's what. That makes that feel a little bit different. Kayla: It feels dishonest to market empowerment and then sell zumba wear. Chris: It's not the worst thing ever, but it is. It does. That part of it does feel a. Kayla: Little like this to me, is made even ickier by the fact that various reporters and folks I've seen online claim that Zumba Fitness, LLC tends to obscure the official number of certified Zumba fitness instructors. Chris: Right. Kayla: Kind of like we talked about last episode. So is nothing. You know, the idea is it's to not discourage anyone from becoming an instructor because, oh, no, the market is saturated. So, like we said, there's an estimated 100,000 instructors worldwide, and that's a lot of people, especially in the digital era and the era of the pandemic, where everything has moved online. There's even more market saturation when anyone can take a class taught by anyone, literally anywhere. Like, I can imagine it's. I can't imagine that it's easy to compete with Zumba Sulu or, like, celebrity Zumba teachers on. On YouTube. If you're someone just starting out right now.

32:07 Chris: You know what we should do? Kayla: Try to make. Try to be Zumba. Chris: Try to be Zumba instructors for our bonus content. We should make a workout video, and we should call out Chris and Kayla's discount. Step back and forth a thon. Kayla: I'd do it. And you think I couldn't choreograph a. Chris: I think you could. I think we should. I think that should be our bonus content on Patreon. So for anyone that's about to go sign up for Patreon, totally go do that. We're still speculating, though, so no promises. Yeah, no promises. We may not do that, but I think it's a great idea. Kayla: So now kind of going back to the positive side. Chris: Oh, okay. Kayla: Zinn does actually seem to have a number of tools to try and set his teachers up for success. There's zinplay, which is an app that allows teachers to create playlists and include sound effects and crossfades and trimming. Whatever you need to do to your music, to have it go along to your desired choreography. It's really cool. And, like, yeah, you'll take a zoom. That's why I don't know if Zumba Sulu is the best example for this, but, like, when I was taking Zumba classes, live taught Zumba classes online, the instructor would just be dancing, and the music would just go, and it would go into one song after another. And it was. I was kind of like, how are they doing that? Because of Zoom.

33:23 Chris: So that instructor curated his own music, then? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay, that's cool. Kayla: There's Zinn now, and that's the digital platform where Zin members can access the new Zumba music, new choreography that's being released, educational videos. There's class buzz, which is another app that helps Zumba instructors promote themselves in their classes. It helps them create marketing tools. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Which I think is really cool. Chris: Yeah, that is cool. Yeah. Kayla: There's a class posting tool, so it's like, you can post your classes. I teach classes this day and this day, and then it goes up on this Bing zumba site there. Chris: These all sound pretty good. Kayla: A mentorship program so you can be paired with, like, another more experienced Zumba. Chris: Instructor so you can have zoombier than you.

34:04 Kayla: More zoombier than you. There is Zin Studio and a Zumba zoom add on, which both help empower teachers to instruct virtually from home. There is a tool that remembers and celebrates your zinvursary with perks, and there's. Chris: Too many z's going on here. This is like. This is like World War Z. Kayla: It's funny you say that, because it also gives you access to the Zumba thesaurus, because, as you might have caught on, there are a lot of buzzwords in Zumba specific language that makes, you know, takes some getting used to. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: I tried to get access to thesaurus, the glossary, but alas, it seems to only be available to zin registered persons. Chris: Oh, they should call it the glossary.

34:46 Kayla: Zin also gives you access to zin jam sessions. What's easy. Chris: Why are you doing that with your head? Kayla: What's a zam session? Chris: Stop it. Kayla: A zam session. What's a jam session, you might ask? Chris: I'm surprised it's not a zam session. Kayla: A Zin jam session is a three hour class led by Zeiss. Chris: Zeiss. It's happening. Oh, God. Kayla: I can't. I'm turning into a smurf. Chris: I need the a zurf. A zmurf. Kayla: A Zinn jam session is a three hour class led by a licensed Zumba jammer that teaches a handful of new choreography and boosts instructor skills, quote, unquote. These are small group classes. There's a lot of personal interaction. And what's a Zumba jammer, you might ask.

35:34 Chris: I might. Kayla: A Zumba jammer. ZJTM is a Zin TM member who has been handpicked by Beidou and licensed by Zumba to host Zin TM Jam Sessions. ZJ's are awesome at creating choreography and helping zins thrive. Chris: Okay. I kind of understood those sentences. Kayla: So basically, remember how we talked about zin education specialists or Zumba education specialists, and it was like, these are great Zumba instructors. Now there's zumba jammers. Chris: Those are like the mentors kind of thing. Kayla: Those are like the people who are authorized to do zumba trainings. Chris: Okay. Okay. Kayla: So Zumba jammers are like, basically the best dancers and choreographers. That beta was like, yeah, they're gonna teach these jam sessions.

36:17 Chris: These are like Britney's backup dancers that also do that. Okay. Kayla: Zumba jammers can audition periodically when Zumba Jammer calls are announced and a jam session costs $30 to attend for a zin membership person. Chris: Okay. Okay. All right. And they just learn new choreography. Kayla: And the best dancers from the best generally become. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Now, we've talked a lot about what Zin offers students, but still, I can't quite put my finger on what it is like, is it contractor support? Is it continuing education? Is it sounds like it's a retail app. Yeah, I guess it's all those things together. But when you really start digging into the world of becoming a Zumba instructor, it starts to feel more and more convoluted, like kind of how you're hinting at with like, oh, the diamond level. And then you go on this downline, and then you have points in this.

37:07 Chris: You lost me. Just talking about the jam thing. Kayla: Yeah. So the continuing education of it all particularly confused me and Zumba Fitness, LLC. And Zin is very serious about supporting continuing education for its instructors. Here is a faq I pulled an faq I pulled from the Zumba website. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Will I receive continuing education credits, cecs for attending zinjam sessions? Chris: You need more feg to get cecs to attend the zinjam? Kayla: Answer. You'll be awarded a maximum of 0.3 ace cecs or three AFAA ceus in a month. By attending zinjam sessions, Canfit pro participants will be eligible for one FIS CEC for zinzam sessions. Zinjam sessions, up to four FIs cEC per year. Please contact the Zumba jammer directly to request the continuing education credits. Did you understand that?

38:12 Chris: No, that was word salad. That sounded like that time that Steve Forbes was on Saturday Night Live and they had the fake Ted Koppel, and he was going like, it's like, I'm gonna read an excerpt from your book, Mister Forbes. And it was like, jim Jam, Zimmy Zam, Lamar Alexander number two. Kayla: Yeah, that was. Chris: That. I was like. That was. Kayla: I didn't get it. Chris: That wasn't a parody. Kayla: No. I googled around, and I guess that taking Zumba classes can count towards, like, other kinds of certifications or continuing education, such as, like, certifications with the Athletics and Fitness association of America, which is AFAA, and canadian fitness Professionals, Inc. Which is canfit pro.

38:53 Chris: Okay. But it's all just chiropractors. Kayla: It's a lot to me. And without access to the glossary and, like, the inner workings of Zinn, I feel lost. Like I. Chris: Okay, I'm already marking ritual high for this because of that. Kayla: You know what I feel like? I feel like I need to spend $300 and then $30 a month thereafter just to be able to understand what exactly it is to become a member of Zin. Yeah, feel the pull. But look again, I don't want to just sit here and say that Zumba is taking advantage of its instructors. We have encountered many people who are living their best lives and making money thanks to Zumba's program or LT B. Stop it. Stop. I'm gonna kill you. Zumba Sulu is a good example. Or my instructor, the Zumba king, and his husband, various instructors giving us quotes about Zumba saving their lives.

39:43 Chris: Yeah, that's pretty good, I guess. Kayla: And then what. What negative things can you say about these headlines or these. Yeah, I guess they're headlines. These headlines from Glassdoor. I love teaching Zumba. The reason is simple. Every class feels like a party, a company that makes a difference in the world. Almost perfect, positive, soul, fulfilling job. Lot of exclamation points. Chris: Are these people that work at Zumba, LLC or are these instructors that have taken the course? Kayla: These. I tried to only pull headlines from folks that were Zumba instructors and not people that worked at Zumba Fitness, LLC headquarters. Chris: Okay. Because if you pull any of those, it would be like, you know, office job, whatever. It's like a regular accounting job.

40:24 Kayla: I think a company that makes a difference in the world is from somebody that works Zumba Fitness, LLC. Chris: Oh, okay. But probably not the accountant. Kayla: Probably not the accountant. And what negative thing can you say about this review on something called hubpages.com dot, I officially canceled my Zumba membership with the penalty of losing my license after over four years of faithfully paying my membership dues. It feels like a slap in my face from Zimba with treating their committed instructors like another stream of revenue to make money off of by providing instructors with little options for continuing education or ways to keep their license current. Aside from paying their monthly Zim membership fee that ive not benefited off of but continue to pay for years, their Zumba instructor teachers falsely advertise to and manipulate new instructors by giving them the wrong information about recertification options just to sell these zin memberships the shittiest customer service ever and worst certifying company ever.

41:10 Kayla: I dont recommend anyone in the fitness industry to consider Zumba in their fitness careers for the reason that they treat their fitness instructors like sales gain, not caring about wanting them to succeed as fitness professionals unless they are profiting off of them. Oh wait, I guess that one's slightly less good. Chris: Minus ten fetch points for that person. Kayla: And then the response from another hub pages user was, I just went to certification yesterday and loved this exercise program, but I've never, with an exclamation point been to such a pyramid scam push in my life. Zin Network was mentioned over 100 times. Things like, you will not be able to teach without this, etcetera. Chris: So this is, sorry, what page is this? Kayla: Hub hub pages, which is another like, review.

41:51 Chris: It's like a glassdoor type site. Kayla: Yeah, but it's like less official. Oh, it's like where's, like people chatting. Chris: It's like chit chat glassdoor, but for, people. Glassdoor, but for regular joes. Kayla: But there was also this other review on Glassdoor. Just don't. Chris: Oh, some of these don't sound great, Kayla, gotta be honest. And actually, that one person was kind of singing some of that same tune that we have been about. Just like their instructors are just nothing but a piggy bank they're trying to get as much money out of. Kayla: That wouldn't feel nice to me. Chris: Or is it just sour grapes, which is why they need the minus ten fudge points?

42:33 Kayla: Maybe. Maybe it's just sour grapes. Could be. That's what I mean. Maybe they're just a suppressive person. I don't know. Chris: Mm. They sound suppressive to me. Kayla: Zumba, of course, pops up for discussion every now and then in places like the anti MLM subreddit. Chris: Oh, really? Kayla: Yes, of course. Yeah, because, okay, here. A user named Sleepypairrot, 17 posted there, 13 posted there three years ago. Where do things like Zumba fit in? Good question, sleepy parrot. Chris: If you have answer to that, please let us know here. Kayla: Culturejustweirdmail.com so the full post was, seriously, I used to work writing for people who ran Zumba events. They paid to become a certified instructor, paid out of their own pockets for venues, etcetera, and then tried to make money through classes, which is not MLM. But most of them then adopted mlms to sell during their classes because the person fee was never enough to cover the venue and stuff. So what role do things like Zumba play in the development of mlms? Because I've only seen it from the sidelines, but there's too much relationship to ignore.

43:33 Chris: Wait, so these zumba instructors, like, also had MLM products they were hawking during their classes? Kayla: This person is saying, and this is something that will happen wherever you become a Zumba instructor. You need somewhere to teach your classes. If you're not employed by a gym or a fitness studio, you might rent a room in a church, and you. Chris: Don'T make enough money doing zumba. Unless you also sell arbonne. Kayla: Yeah. If you're paying out your pocket for the room and then you only have, like, three students, then it doesn't cover the cost. And so this person is saying it's. Chris: Like a MLM catalyst. Kayla: Yeah. Like, it's not a pyramid scheme, but it certainly plays a bit with some of those tropes. And then when you have things like instructors paying for things out of their own pocket and then not seeing any profit after being promised the world that feels that tastes similarly. Yeah, it's good that there's no upline, downline element, and I hope that they never go that route. I do worry a little bit that it might go that way.

44:27 Chris: It does feel like they're just, like. Kayla: On that precipice, especially with the hierarchy of, like, oh, there's Zumba education specialists and their zumba. Chris: Yeah, they already have the convoluted. Yeah. Kayla: But if what sleepy parrot 17 says is true and that the kind of folks who become Zumba instructors also find themselves drawn to pyramid schemes, that might be a bit of an indictment on the business structure here. Chris: Right. Like, why can't they support themselves doing this thing that they learn to do? Yeah. Kayla: Well. And also, why are so many people wanting to become Zumba instructors? Chris: Right. Kayla: Why is that so attractive? Chris: Right. Kayla: Is there. Cause something that happens with mlms a lot is like, the. It sounds too good to be true, and then usually if it sounds too good to be true, it is, but it sounds too good to be true is what makes people so, like, invested in it. And so, like, yeah, I wanna do this. So is the same kind of part of the brain being tickled by the. Become a zumba instructor and it's great, and it's the best thing ever in the entire world, and our classes are the best, and it's for everyone, and.

45:28 Chris: I definitely sounds like it's selling a little bit of a dream, for sure. Kayla: Just a side note on instructors finding their own locations and hosting their own events. As we have noted numerous times before, Zumba is trademarked, as well as other ancillary terms like zin z es, zumba jammer, anything with a z in it. Chris: Zebras. Kayla: If you, as a certified instructor, host an event that has any other kind of activity at it, you aren't allowed to use the Zumba trademark, which I guess makes sense. But also, I'm just kind of, like, you paid for the brand. Just kind of use it. I don't know. Feels a little nit picky. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Also, kids are allowed to become zumba instructors.

46:09 Chris: Wait, children? Kayla: Okay, well, okay, when I say kids, I mean that 1516 and 17 year olds are allowed to attend Zumba trainings as long as they have a letter from a parent, and then the parent signs off on a liability form. Chris: Okay. So they're not, like, trying to suck money out of children. Kayla: Babies, but, like, a 15 year old. I don't know. I feel uncomfortable with the. With this. Chris: Well, the parent has to sign off. Kayla: The parents sign off, but parents can also sign. Courtney Stodden's parent also signed off on their marriage. Chris: They shouldn't have done that. Kayla: They should not have done that. Courtney Stodden was 16, so I guess. Chris: They shouldn't be, like, parents let their. Kayla: Kids be in movies all the damn time. Chris: They shouldn't be doing that either. Okay. Kayla: Child labor is weird, and I know that, like, you know, my cousin always had jobs growing up from 14 on. I know that teenagers have jobs. You had jobs as a teenager?

46:55 Chris: I did. Kayla: But you, like, sold ice cream or booze or whatever at universal. Chris: Yeah, when I was, like, 18. Kayla: I'm just saying young people have jobs. Chris: As a legal adult. Kayla: When I was in high school, my friends always had jobs. My friends, like, worked at Starbucks or they worked at the local bookstore, like, as pre 18 year olds. Chris: Okay, all right. Kayla: But in some cases, that's nothing. Being your own boss or being an entrepreneur, it just feels different. Feels different for a 15 or 16 year old to go, like, work as a barista because they need some gas money versus, like, we're gonna let 15. Chris: Year olds start them early. Kayla: Kids instructors. Chris: Yeah, man. There's some 15 year olds that are really in shape and know how to dance.

47:37 Kayla: Let them Zumba there you go, kids. Zumba will take your money, too. And, you know, maybe. Chris: Maybe this is America, Kayla. We will take anybody's fucking money. All right. Kayla: I. Chris: Three year olds. You want to give us money? Give us your money. Three year olds. Kayla: Yeah. Actually. But don't. I'm so proud that we're not stealing money from three year olds. Chris: I mean, we probably are. We just don't know how. Kayla: Don't worry. Zumba isn't just taking its instructors for a ride. When it comes to trainings in zin, there are plenty of perks for Zumba Fitness LLC's core consumer base. First of all, there are the conventions instructor conventions, to be exact, as profiled in the Inc. Article. We continue quoting. Chris: That smells like MLM.

48:18 Kayla: Does it? Chris: Conventions? Kayla: I don't. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Why? Chris: It smells like when they have, like, those big, like, Mary Kay convention or, you know, amway convention, they get real culty. Yeah. And they got the guys up there doing their, like, pep talks and. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Saying how the problem isn't the product, it's you. Kayla: Yeah, that's this, like. Okay. A Zumba convention is described in the article as, quote, part professional education, part Woodstock with cargo pants. And there are events like, okay, well, first of all, the hold on the area for Zumbaware at this particular convention, which was, I believe, in Orlando there.

48:59 Chris: Oh, hey. Kayla: Yeah. Hey. The Zumba store. The area for the Zumba store occupied 30,000. Chris: That's some. Kayla: That's very large. Chris: That's some floor space right there. Kayla: So in this article, half an hour before it opens on the first day, more than 60 instructors are already in line, including a couple of white haired seniors camped out in folding chairs. And, like, for the merch. For the merch. And then you have, like, she talks about how you go into the bathroom and there's, like, women showing each other how to, like, cut the sleeves off. And, like, there's YouTube videos all about, like, customizing the zumba wear and then, like, people making scarves out of stuff. And, like. Chris: And these are the instructors. Kayla: All this is an instructor convention. Chris: Okay. And they're just so into Zumba that they just love the products and they have to buy the. Yeah, okay. All right. It's a cult. Yeah.

49:45 Kayla: There's also events, like two hour dance sessions led by Beto Perez himself, jamming up on stage to pounding music and flashing lights, and 8000 instructors all screaming and dancing and sweating in a daze along with him. As noted in the byline, Zumba instructors are both the primary customers and the core product of Zumba. Fitness. Some 8000 of them paid at least $399 each to attend an instructors convention in Orlando in August. Chris: And I'm assuming that's on top of their. Kayla: Yes, that's on top of everything else. Chris: And their zin membership. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And their beep bop boop ABC. Kayla: I can't imagine that ticket also includes, like, travel and lodging. No, it's probably just a ticket for the convention.

50:29 Chris: Yeah. Oh, and they also have to buy. Kayla: All the merch, and then you got to stand in line for your clothes, so you're spending a lot of money on this. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Yeah, but maybe a convention isn't your thing. Maybe you need a vacation. Chris: I do. Kayla: Well, Zumba has just the thing for that. Chris: Oh, great. Kayla: Zumba vacations. Head on over to club Med in the south of France to, quote, dance, dine, and unwind with all your besties and hundreds of zumba lovers just like you. Eat, sleep, zumba, repeat. There are. Chris: That's a cult sentence. Kayla: Yeah, it's kind of like, I don't know, maybe you want to do something else besides zumba. I don't know. Chris: No, kayla. Eat, sleep, zumba, repeat. In fact, don't even eat and sleep. You can eat while you're zooming.

51:11 Kayla: Yeah, I guess you can. You can eat, you can't sleep, but you can't eat while you're zoom. Chris: No, but you can just forego sleeping. You can take those pills that air force pilots take. Kayla: There you go. Zumba pills. So a zumba vacation, these kind of zumba vacations, they're all Zumba branded. They're not just for the Zumba instructor network members, but there are, of course, special perks for zin members when you attend these vacations, naturally. And this vacation will run you about $300 a night. All inclusive. It's all inclusive. Chris: Oh, okay. Okay. Kayla: Not the travel, I don't think. But, you know, room, board room, food, board, zoom. Classic. Chris: Yeah, veg. Kayla: But, hey, maybe all inclusive vacations aren't your thing. Maybe you prefer.

51:51 Chris: No, they are. Kayla: Well, yeah, same. But, you know, hear me out. Maybe you prefer to take it to the high seas because. Ooh, yes, there are official Zumba cruises. Chris: Oh, of course there are Zumba cruises. Kayla: I think there's cruises for, like, everything. There are cruises for everything. And this is. Of course, there are Zumba on many cruises because Zumba is in many gyms, and so then you can take the Zumba class on your cruise. But no, these are Zumba themed cruises, and there have been at least four. I think they stopped, like, I didn't see one happening during the pandemic AV's. Chris: But I remember how last year there was that Covid themed cruise. Kayla: Yeah, earlier in the year, maybe it was supposed to be a Zumba, but then it just turned into Covid. I really hope this comes back. I don't have exact pricing for you, but the idea of the Zumba cruise is that you get to travel around to, like, caribbean destinations, participate in standard cruise fare, like Broadway performances and buffets. But you'll also get to attend the, quote, best Zumba classes of your life, high profile concerts with Zumba music stars like Shaggy and Wyclef Jean.

52:56 Chris: Wait, there's Zumba stars? Kayla: We'll get to that. As well as masterclasses with Zumba celebrities like Beidou himself. So, honestly, I want to go on a fucking Zumba cruise. Are you kidding me? Chris: It's just weird that it's, like, I know that there's cruises for everything, but it just. It's weird that there's a cruise themed around, like, one thing that you might do as one small part of a normal cruise. Kayla: It's weird to me that there's zumba celebrities. Chris: That is weird. Kayla: It's weird to me. Chris: That's very weird. Kayla: Not that there's celebrities known for zumba, but, like, zumba Sulu or whatever. Like, it's weird that there's, like, a following for these, like, people who are just really good at Zumba. Chris: Yes. That's very strange. Kayla: It's weird. Chris: That's very strange. Kayla: Now let's pivot for a second to my absolute. This is the whole reason why I did this episode. This is my favorite thing. You noticed something? You noticed how I said music stars give concerts on Zumba cruises?

53:48 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: You said Shaggy and I said names of actual people. Chris: Yeah, those are. Those are actual artists. Kayla: Well, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Chris: What? Kayla: Let's jump in now to Zumba and its music. Now, remember last episode, how we talked a little bit about zumba music? How, like, there would always be really hot songs and, like, despacito, senorita, or whatever? Yeah, that's no coincidence. Let me read you this quote from Wikipedia about Zuma and its relationship to Zumba, is what I wrote, and that's clearly not what I meant. Let me read you this quote from Wikipedia about Zumba and its relationship to its music. Chris: Oh, is it just, like. Is it just real dirty? Is it just, like, real tight? Recording industry.

54:29 Kayla: So fascinating. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Quote. Through his Zumba fitness routines, Beto Perez promotes music and musical artists associated with zumba, which positively affects musical success for artists in various latin music genres. An Associated Press article states that the zumba movement has created an international fanbase for latin music, citing acts like Pitbull, Don Omar, and Daddy Yankee. Daddy Yankees limbo shouts out for Zumba several times in the lyrics. Pitbull, Wyclef Jean and other stars have taken part in Zumba fitness conventions. Other Zumba fans include Jennifer Lopez and Shakira. Chris: That makes sense. Kayla: Now, this Wikipedia Passage is an understatement. We mentioned last time that Zumba Fitness LLC has released its own albums, Zumba Fitness Dance Party. And you know, those feature hit songs to dance to. To do your Zumba, get your zumba on too. And that's because the company and Beto Perez himself established personal and fruitful relationships with various artists around the world. So the ones mentioned, but we're talking particularly artists in the latin speaking world. So for example, colombian singer Mara has a hit song called Crazy Love that Beidou features on. Beidou was also featured on DJ Mams hit Fiesta Buena, a song that he made following a hit he called Zumba. He Zumba ha. Which I wanna listen to right now. Zumba has named multiple artists as Zumba fitness. Emerging artists such as someone named Jay Perry.

55:58 Chris: Wait, so is Zumba just a recording label? Kayla: Keep going. And someone named Dario wonder. Great name. The official international Zumba ambassador is brazilian artist Claudio Lete, whose song Largadino has been used extensively in Zumba classes. Chris: Yeah, this sounds like it's like a pillar of their business as much as the dance classes. Kayla: But it's not just about certain musical artists being particularly suited for Zuma choreography or classes or Beidou himself having these relationships. The Zumba movement itself has become an attractive vehicle for high profile stars. Remember all those numbers we kept hitting, you know, 15 million zumba class takers each week? Zumba classes in 186 countries. Yeah, that's a lot of reach. And that reach has led to musical artists to strike deals with Zumba in order to promote their songs.

56:51 Chris: There we go. Kayla: There we go. Legit. Like, like Wyclef Jean, like Pitbull. They have deals with Zumba fitness to promote their songs in their classes as well as feature their songs on their Zumba fitness dvd or cd compilations. Chris: I mean, now that you say it though, like it kind of made. Kayla: Like, it makes. Chris: I can kind of so much. If you think of Zumba as not just a fitness class, but also as like a massive distribution network for music. Kayla: Yep. Chris: Then it suddenly totally makes sense. Kayla: Billboard magazine has literally called Zumba the, quote, next major music platform. Yeah, the company has commissioned and produced 400 songs, and of those songs that are available on iTunes, they have been downloaded millions of times. William Rhodey music platform William Rohde, who is the former chairman and CEO of MTV Networks International and is a current advisor to Zumba Fitness, LLC, was quoted the ink article as saying, it's hotter than MTV in any of the hot years I saw MTV.

57:51 Chris: Holy shit. Kayla: And let me just read you this passage from that ink article. I couldn't summarize it because it's too perfect. Perelman is especially chuffed at the rising profile of Zumba's music business. Its new cd, Zumba Fitness dance party, recently went platinum in France. Universal, EMI, Sony, they're calling us and saying, can we put this song we're launching out on the Zin network, says Perlman, because they know 14 million people are going to hear it. We have artists saying, I don't need a record label. I'll just put my song up on iTunes and Zumba can be my promotional vehicle. Chris: That, yep, I love that. Kayla: I think it's the coolest thing in the world. Chris: That is fascinating.

58:32 Kayla: It's so, it's so interesting to me that it's like. Cause yeah, when you're taking Zumba, it's like these songs are great and you're having a great time with them. So it's like you have this great relationship with this music, right? Yeah. I can imagine wanting to like, listen. I want to listen to these songs elsewhere. Chris: Right. Kayla: I love senorita. If I had only heard senorita on the radio, I don't think I'd have the same relationship to it. Chris: Yeah, I mean, that's true. You're like, you have a very positive frame of mind when you're listening to all these songs. Kayla: Yeah. And then I think a lot of people who do zumba do a lot of zumba. And so it's kind of like you're hearing these songs, you're having a relationship with these songs, you're gonna buy the music. Chris: Like, yeah. It's very symbiotic. Kayla: Why? Yeah, you don't need a label, you just need zumba.

59:14 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: People are gonna listen to your music, right. And they're gonna know you. And like, I have heard songs where they shout out Zumba and it's like, yeah, that's cuz they're literally talking to me, taking their class like every single fucking daddy Yankee song. And he goes, zumba. I'm gonna go like, whoa. Come on. Chris: Right? And, I mean, if you're listening to it when you're not taking a class and you're a Zumba fan, then that's like an Easter egg shout out to you, right? Kayla: I love it. Chris: That is. That's a chef's kiss. That's pretty good, Kayla. Kayla: So if that doesn't explain the exact nature of the reach that Zumba has, the exact nature of this beast. Cement size. I don't know what will. Chris: Yeah, no, that was definitely the cherry on top.

59:55 Kayla: Oh, wait. Chris: No, wait. No. Kayla: Yes. I do know it will. Religion? What religion? No, Zumba has gotten so big that in my research, I have found it to have even had various brushes with the world's largest religions. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: It is an entire rabbit hole. Chris: Do I need to be scared? Kayla: Yes. No. I don't know. It's a rabbit hole. We cannot afford to go down here. We're already, like, an hour into this. We got to get to our evaluation, so we're just going touch the tip of the iceberg. I think I mentioned in the previous episode that Zumba is even practiced in places like Iran, where it has been banned for being un Islamic. It's also been banned in some parts of Malaysia for the same reason with folks who practice in these places sometimes finding themselves arrested.

1:00:41 Chris: Arrested for Zumba. Kayla: Arrested for Zumba. Chris: Oh, man. What a revolutionary. Kayla: I found multiple articles that I'll share that talk about Zumba practice as a form of evangelism for Christianity, especially for, like, local lutheran churches. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Or articles questioning whether or not zumba can be incorporated in living a christian lifestyle. Chris: So there's evangel, christian evangelism, zumba. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: But also there's. If you do zumba, maybe you love the devil. Kayla: Yeah. Spoiler alert. Some fundamentalists believe that Zumba is too inherently sexual to participate in, especially. Chris: Oh, that would naturally, in, like, a. Kayla: Co ed setting, even if you're in your local church. Chris: Yeah, that's true.

1:01:22 Kayla: So those are those. Chris: I mean, Zumba, Sulu and his girlfriend there. I mean, they were pretty sexy. Kayla: If Jesus has a stance on your group, you're probably a big fucking deal. And that's exactly where we're at with Zumba. Chris: That's the other way. You know, you've made it. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Is there a schism yet, just out of curiosity? Kayla: Not that I know of. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I think that they. I think that a business has a little bit tighter reign on something like that. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Once. I think once. If they end up going full MLM. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Maybe we'll see it. But right now, I kind of. The Albertos break up. Chris: It doesn't. You know, honestly, I. Before, I was saying, oh, they're about to be an MMO. Now that you said the thing about the music, I'm not sure they need to do that.

1:02:03 Kayla: Yeah, they probably don't need to. They don't. They don't. They don't have an issue with making money. Chris: Yeah, it doesn't seem like they have an issue. It seems like they have distribution, and they just need. Like, they're just, oh, come on in, and we'll just monetize whatever you give us. Kayla: Right. Chris: Versus, like, you would start an MLM in order to solve the distribution problem for the product. Kayla: Right. Chris: So it seems like they're sort of already. They're already reversed on that. Kayla: They're good. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So are you ready to evaluate? Chris: I am, but because we're on the road, I don't have a piece of paper to flip around in front of the microphone. Crinkle, crinkle. Kayla: It's a fake plant. Chris: That's a fake plant. Okay. I am ready to evaluate. I was gonna say cult before you said the thing about the music, and now I'm back to business. I don't know. Let's do the criteria.

1:02:56 Kayla: All right. Chris: I don't know. Kayla: Do you remember what the criteria are? Chris: Of course I do, Kayla. Kayla: I don't. Chris: Okay, number one is. What do you mean you don't? Don't say that on the show. I know some of that's our branding thing. That's what we sell to our certified culture. Just weird instructors. Kayla: Okay, well, charismatic leader. Come on. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So huge. Chris: That seems like it's very strong. One of the stronger. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Like, people are. Kayla: Like, you saw those pictures killing each. Chris: Other, stampeding in the airport to get to Beidou. Kayla: You saw him. He's a Ken doll. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Okay, so that's edge out the wazoo. Chris: Very high. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Life consumed. So it sounds like, actually, that has the potential to get pretty high.

1:03:41 Kayla: I think. I think it is pretty high. I think you said there's people that. Chris: Follow around your instructor around Los Angeles as he goes to different places. Kayla: Well, and even not even just being. If you're an instructor, it's your. Chris: Oh, right, yeah. Well, okay, so, actually, are we talking about instructors as the cult members? Are we talking about dancers? Are we talking. Kayla: What are we called? Chris: Dancers, users, zumba ers, zoombers. Zoombers. Instructors and zumbers. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Are they both part of the cult? Kayla: I think they're both part of the cult, just in different capacity. Chris: I mean, I don't know if it's always high because I certainly was able to just do a class with you and then, you know, go on with my life. Kayla: There are people who are users or zoombers that only take. Only take zumba classes. They take a lot of zoom classes a week and, like, are obsessed with zumba.

1:04:27 Chris: Yeah. It's not if you're going to. Going on the cruise zumba, but if you are and if you're doing the club med thing. Kayla: Right. Chris: That sounds pretty consistent. Sumptuve. So pretty potentially get pretty high there. Kayla: It's high. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Expect all the music that you listen to is zumba music and. Chris: Oh, that's true. Right, right. Okay. Expected harm. Kayla: It feels pretty low. Unless you're somebody who's an instructor and you pour all your money into this and you don't make any money back. Chris: Yeah, it sounded like that one guy on. Not glassdoor, whatever the hell it was. Kayla: Pages. Chris: Yeah, it sounded like that guy was pretty. Pretty bummed out about how his experience went. Kayla: I believe it was a lady named Stephanie.

1:05:08 Chris: Stephanie sounds like she was pretty bummed out about how her experience went, but doesn't sound like that's most of the. Kayla: Self reporting that I've come across has been very positive. Chris: Okay. All right. So I'd say that's fairly. Not zero, but pretty low. Yeah. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay. Antifactuality. Kayla: I don't think it's there. Chris: Really? What about the obfuscating the numbers? Kayla: Anti factuality. Chris: What about the possible made up narrative about the mythology of how Zumba was found? Kayla: That's just me guessing. That's not coming from anywhere. Chris: Oh, that's just. There's speculation. Kayla: Just hashtag speculation, Kayla. Chris: Okay. Okay. Well, then I guess low. There's no motivated reasoning. Is there any, like, you can't lose. Is there any, like, inside, outside, sort of. You know, don't listen to the outsiders because they will tell you fake news.

1:06:00 Kayla: I just think there's less of that because there's no upline, downline system in this. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I think people can actually, like. Chris: I think so low. Kayla: This is totally me saying this, but I think probably there's a higher percentage of people that become Zumba instructors that can make money on it than people who sign up to sell Tupperware and make money at it. Chris: Okay. Okay. Kayla: That would stand to reason for me. Chris: Probably, given that there's not the geometric expansion of the downline thing. Okay. So the next thing would be, is it niche? Kayla: Also? I think because there's a huge, huge demand for the product. Chris: Right? Kayla: Far more people want to take zumba classes than want to buy a tupperware. And you can buy a zumba class multiple times a week. You can't buy a Tupperware multiple times a week.

1:06:44 Chris: Right. Okay. I mean, some mlms, you can buy their product multiple times a week. So it's not. I mean. Kayla: Right, like herbalife. Chris: Right, okay. But is it niche, though? And this sounds very not niche. Kayla: No. Chris: This sounds like it's about to, like, break down my door and. Kayla: Yeah, but it's just a wave of zumba. Chris: I'm kind of scared, actually. Kayla: Zumba is everywhere. Chris: It's like the COVID Okay. So very, extremely low on that one. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And then finally, ritual. Kayla: Not finally. Chris: Oh, sorry. Kayla: Right. Chris: We have the new ones. Pardon me. Kayla: Ritual is hella high. Chris: Ritual is high. So much ritual. Kayla: Ritual out the wazoo. All the trainings, all the words, all the things, all the fed, all the.

1:07:25 Chris: Zins, all the zumba is leveraging the keepers of our culture to its advantage, Kayla. It's very high. Kayla: They're using it, too. They're using zumba for their advantage. Chris: Sure, everything's a two way street, but. Kayla: Come on, I love that. It's like, why do I need a record label? I'll just get Zumba. I'll just make something salsa y. Chris: All right. Now, the new ones are. Dogma. Kayla: Doesn't feel dogmatic to me. I mean, there is a lot of, like, this is the best, and it's great. Like, I do kind of get the sense that it's like. I think this is total speculation, but I do get the feeling that there is a little bit of emperor's new clothes here, where no one wants to be the first to say, like, is it that good? Hey, this isn't. This isn't working for me. Or because there's such a lack of immediate, like, ability to find people who maybe haven't had such a great experience with it, where it's not the most life changing thing in the world. I have to look at those reviews with a little bit of skepticism, but that still doesn't feel dogmatic.

1:08:28 Chris: Yeah. I mean, do you think the Alberto's or even the instructors or whoever might say that other workout styles or other dance classes are evil and bad and wrong? Kayla: No, but there is a little bit of, like. Like, ditch the workout, join the party. It's kind of like everything else is boring and makes you feel bad, and Zumba's gonna get you feeling good, and we're gonna have a good time, make you feel good about yourself. But it's also like. It kind of is, though. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Like, it doesn't have to be. Chris: Do you feel like they want to crush diversity in their. In their. Whatever they're doing?

1:09:08 Kayla: Not explicitly. Chris: Okay. Then I would say lowish. Kayla: Like, it's not. It's not like Crossfit, where sometimes you'll go to CrossFit and they'll be like, if you do something else, you're fucking stupid. Chris: Okay. Then in this case, I'll say low for this. Kayla: Okay. Chris: And then chain of victims. It does. It's. This is weird one, because there's. You said they were evangelizing, right? So there's some semblance of chain of victims. Right. There's some semblance of, like, maybe one instructor recommends another instructor, you know, or another person to become an instructor. And there's some, like, chain of recruiting going on. Kayla: Right. Chris: Like, you can still have a chain of recruiting even if you don't have, like, an actual downline supported by the, you know, company's compensation structure.

1:09:50 Kayla: Right. Chris: So I don't know. I want to say, like, medium here, because there's, like, there is some evangelizing going on, but there isn't a downline. I don't know. But also victim. Can you be. Can it be chain of victims? If there's. If expected harm is low, we need to decide that. Kayla: And this is chain of fools. I don't know. Chain of. Chris: Chain, chain. Kayla: It's just a chain of. Chris: Oh, cell. That is a Zumba song. Zumba. Guys. Chain, chain by Chris Carlson. My version of it. Chain of something. Kayla: A chain. A chain of TBD.

1:10:31 Chris: Chain of people. Kayla: Chain of people. Chris: There's. So I would say some. Do you agree? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: But what does that make you say overall? Chris: The thing is, the ones that hit on, it hit real hard. Kayla: I kind of think it's a cult. Chris: Yeah. Like. Kayla: And I don't think it's a cult. Chris: There's some things that really. Yeah, well, because we said that expected harm was low, and I didn't really have anti factuality. Those are the two most negative. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: I think it's a happy ones, except for maybe chain. But even then. Chain of whatever. Kayla: Chain of peeps. Chris: Chain of peeps. Kayla: Chain of guys. Chris: Chain of dudes. Was also sort of medium. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Dogma was low. All of the sort of, like, negatively connotated ones were low. Yeah, it's pretty well.

1:11:12 Kayla: Okay. Chris: Actually, niche was. Sorry. Niche was super low. Was super low. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So is it not a cult because it's so widespread? Kayla: No. I think for me, the. The level of obsession that I think you can get with it feels like. It feels like, in my heart, it feels like a cult. As somebody who was doing it and going, like, I should teach Zumba. And that came out of nowhere. It's like. It's like. It feels like a brain virus. Chris: I will, in a good way. I'm going back and forth. I agree with you about the benign cult thing. The one that I'm really sticking on is how widespread it is. Kayla: So maybe it's not.

1:11:52 Chris: So unless we're willing to. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Like, unless we're willing to sit here and have that discussion about, like, well, cults are just counterculture versus, you know, unless you want to have the discussion right now, I think I'd be willing. Kayla: To say Zumba's a religion. People are saying, zumba saved me. It's a miracle. Chris: Oh, shit. You're right. I think Zumba, that is religious language. Kayla: Literally, somebody said, it's kind of like a miracle. People, multiple people were like, Zumba saved me. Zumba saved my life. Chris: And in terms of, like, its, like, cultural leverage now. I mean, that's. Kayla: It's got conflicts with the other major world religions. I think Zumba is a religion. That is the stance of me.

1:12:33 Chris: So this is our first call that it's a religion. It's not neither a cult nor weird. It is a religion. Kayla: Yes. Chris: All right. You heard it here first, folks. Cult are just weird or just zumba. We'll just add zumba to the title before somebody. Kayla: Like, it's everywhere. Chris: Yeah, we're gonna have to pay for it eventually, but okay. Wow, that's intense, man. That. That got intense. Kayla: That got intense. And there's a lot of intensity here. And, you know, we talked a lot about so much of the weirdness, and again, a lot of going back and forth. Like, this is bad. This isn't bad. This is a cult. This is a business. I don't want this to be just me, like, shitting on zumba or shitting on people for doing zumba.

1:13:15 Chris: No, some religions provide very. I mean, that one person and said, oh, it saved me. Right. So, like, that's good. You know, religions can do that, too. Kayla: Yeah. You know, and, like, zumba, from a personal. On a personal note, Zumba helped me get closer with some of my friends before and during the pandemic. Chris: This is a religion. Get the fuck out of here. Kayla: It gave me a beautiful activity to do with them. It helped me be closer to myself because it literally, it brought me back to some of my dancing roots that I had some issues there with. And Zumba is like, a beautiful way to get back to your dancing. If you've had a complicated relationship with. Chris: Dance and if Zumba is a religion, that explains why I'm, like, really bad at it and I just can't do it. I'm a zoombatheist, you're a Zoom batheist.

1:13:58 Kayla: And Zumba helped me, and I bet it helps a lot of people get through the pandemic that fetch for 1 hour a week. We're starved for fudge in the fan in the pandemic. So it was nice to have Fejiday. Chris: Keeps the COVID away. Kayla: And I just kind of want to close this out with actually, the closing statement of the ink article we've quoted extensively here. So I'm just going to leave you with this. You see all those people wearing those crazy colors? Asks Thorington, who's a Zumba instructor, waving to a scene that resembles Halloween in Greenwich village. That's what I had inside of me. Society tells you to walk inside the lines, but not here. There aren't any lines in Zumba. There isn't any right or wrong way. Zumba is where you get to be yourself. It opens your spirit.

1:14:47 Chris: This is Chris, this is Kayla, and this is Ben. Kayla: Cult or just weird or Zumba, the religion.