S3E20 - The Journey (past, present, and future of COJW)

0:00 Chris: The value we offer on culture, just weird isn't from the viewpoint of an authority or an expert. The value we offer is and always has been a passenger seat in our weird ass podcasts journey. Welcome to Cult of just weird. I'm Chris. I am a game designer and a data scientist.

0:44 Kayla: And I'm Kayla. And I am a tv writer. I am not any kind of scientist. Chris: You're a tv scientist. Kayla: No, I'm not. That sounds like somebody who can, like, fix, like, cathode ray tubes or even know what those words mean. Chris: None of our audience will even know, actually, I wonder what our demographic is for our audience now that I say that. Wonder if it's like, millennials our age that know what a CRT is. Kayla: Probably millennials. Chris: Probably. I doubt any. While you did that grab a void codes episode that was about TikTok. Maybe we got some youths. Some youths. Kayla: There's no. There's no use here. Chris: No youths. Well, happy holiday season. I guess we sort of did, like, a pseudo Christmas episode last episode, because you said something about some Christmas carol. I don't know.

1:25 Kayla: I don't remember anything, honestly. Chris: Oh, that. That escalated. Kayla: I do remember were like, the holidays are sad. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: That still stands. Chris: All right. Kayla: Actually, this is gonna come out after Christmas. Chris: Is it? Kayla: But before. Chris: Oh, yeah. This publishes on the 28th. Kayla: Correct. So we'll be in that week between Christmas and New Year's, which, for people that celebrate Christmas and New Year's on January 1, it's either, like, the best time of the year or the worst, and sometimes both. Chris: Happy bowl season, by the way, to those who celebrate, I don't know who's in the San Diego County Credit Union poinsettia bowl this year, but. Kayla: Oh, no, I know who it is. Chris: Oh, who is it? Kayla: Covid.

2:06 Chris: Thanks anyway, whatever. That's not the point. Happy whatever season it is to you. If it's bowl season, if it's Christmas season, if it's Hanukkah season, if it's Diwali season. Am I missing something? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Whatever season it is. Festivus. Kayla: I've stopped pretending to know other holidays. Chris: Strengths of feet, feats of strength. Kayla: You're doing good. Chris: My feet are strong. They smell strongly, so it's a feat of. It's a strength of feet instead of a fetus. Rank. Kayla: Why are we here today? Chris: Oh, we're here to podcast, actually. This is our season finale of our third season of Cult. Or just weird. Yay. Kayla: Should I find a little, like, that's something, right?

2:47 Chris: I was gonna ask, like, should I find a little sound effect to celebrate? But I just did it. Okay. Now I don't have to do it. Thank you. Kayla: We could get those, like, Br. Things that, you know, should we get. Chris: A sound board, like they have in, like, you know, morning shows on the radio? Kayla: No, because then I'll just start. I don't want to be like those people. I'm sorry. Morning shows are responsible for just the decline of our civilization. Chris: Yeah. So, yeah. So this is our 60th episode and third year of the show. Jeez, it has been quite a journey, hasn't it, Kayla? Kayla: I love this show. I love this show. Chris: You love your own show. That's good. Kayla: As if it were my own child. I think, you know, I know what you're about to talk about, but I do want to say that I don't think back when we first started this show, we could have predicted the, like, evolutionary trajectory of where we would end up.

3:37 Chris: It's exactly what I'm gonna talk about, so we will get to that. I didn't even. I didn't. You know what? I didn't include this, but I didn't know were gonna have a catchphrase. Kayla: That's pretty good. Okay. But all the best catchphrases. Didn't know. Chris: You don't think that Jaleel White just, like, knew in his heart that, did I do that? Was gonna. Kayla: I like how you're implying that he came up with that and not a writer. Chris: I don't know, actually. Yeah, you're probably right. Oh, my God. Kayla: I don't know, though. Oh, that's wild, because I'm pretty sure that the Steve Urkel that we know and love was largely created by Jaleel White himself. Like, I think he was, like, his character. I don't know if it was his character, but I think he saw the, like, you know, breakdown for this character, went in for the audition, and was like, this is how I'm gonna present Steve Urkel. Could be urban legend. I could be making it up, but I don't know.

4:25 Chris: I choose to believe, but, yeah, it's been. It's been a journey on the show, which is the subject matter of today's show. The journey that Kayla and I have been on with culture. Just weird. And the journey that you, the listener, have been on with us, where we started, where we are now, the things we've learned along the way. It's all about the friends we made along the way. Kayla: The podcast is the friends we made along the way. Chris: And finally, a little bit of intention setting as to what may lie in store for the future of the show. Kayla: That's what you're supposed to do at the end of the year and the beginning of the new one. Chris: Yes, exactly. Literally. My next sentence of my obviously scripted script was, that's kind of an appropriate thing to do here at the changeover of the calendar year, right?

5:08 Kayla: Yeah, bitch. Chris: Yeah. I love being seasonally thematic, so I. Kayla: Love having seasonal depression. Chris: That's what season thematicness is. That is part of theme. So season three finale, the journey of culture. Just weird. We'll get to that. But first, stats. Yeah, stats. Kayla: What's stats? Stats, like, statistics. Chris: Statistics. Like, you're just sitting there. You're like, yay. Kayla: Well, I didn't know. I don't think I. My brain. Chris: Everyone loves stats. Kayla: My brain read stats as S t a T z. Stats. Chris: Like, now comes time on sprockets and we. Stats. Kayla: So. Stats? Yes, statistics. Yes. Give me the numbers, baby. I love numbers.

5:53 Chris: Oh, you know what? Actually, you know what we should do? We should do, like, a fun guessing format. Kayla: Okay. Chris: I'm gonna try to order these from easy to hard. So I want you to try to guess numbers for each of these thoughts, okay. Okay. First, total number of episodes. Oh, you're wrong. It was 59 at the time of this recording. I can't believe you got that. That's actually not 60. I think that's technically correct also. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Yeah, well, okay. There's the little outliers of, like, you know, the memorial episode, and then there was, like, the episode that you published by accident from your other podcast, and then there was, like, the delay notification. But bottom line is there have been. This is. You are listening to the 60th real episode. Do you want to know as of the time of this recording, what our total number of downloads are? This is only for the, quote, unquote, real episodes. I cut out all the mistakes.

6:46 Kayla: So you're talking total? Chris: Yeah, yeah. Kayla: I can't guess. Chris: Ballpark. Kayla: Two. Chris: Yeah, it's two. We have two total. Yeah, it's you and me. Kayla: No, it's in the thousands, but I don't remember if it's in the. Chris: Like, what do you think it is? Kayla: Like, 2000 or, like, 60,000? Chris: That was close. It's 69. Kayla: Are you kidding? Chris: Thousand. Kayla: Thank God. Chris: Unfortunately, it wasn't like I missed 69. Kayla: Oh, bummer. I know Musk would be disappointed, so. Chris: Yeah, this is totally, like, a, you know, self pleasuring stat. Like, it's not. Whatever. It's just like, hey, look how cool we are. But I don't know. I think it's still pretty cool. And if you do the math, that comes out to an average of 1179 downloads per episode.

7:26 Kayla: Hell, yeah. Chris: That's crazy. Kayla: Why are all of you listening to this? Chris: I don't know. You should. Okay, stop it. You're. There's. Go see your doctor and tell them you're listening to the show. Kayla: We love you. Chris: Would you like to try to guess our top three platforms that people listen from? Kayla: Oh, I looked at this one time. I think Spotify's up there, right? Chris: Spotify is number one Apple podcast. They are represent. They respond. Spotify is responsible for about 8% of our total downloads. Apple Podcast is next. Good, good guess. That's about 3% of our total downloads, and you probably won't get the next one because it's weird. Kayla: It's like, something weird. Chris: It's Apple Core media, which I'm like, what's that? I don't know. Kayla: I think that's just the same as Apple podcasts. Chris: I think that Apple core media might be. No, I think that, like, Apple podcasts is, like. I listen to it on iTunes, and then Apple core media is, like. Like, API integrated stuff with Apple.

8:16 Kayla: It doesn't exist anymore. Chris: Well, the app. Kayla: It's Apple. Chris: Apple podcasts is the old iTunes. That's what I mean. You're listening to it on Apple's thing or something else that's integrated with Apple, I think. Kayla: Don't quote me on that. Chris: Anyway, each of those is about 3%. Kayla: Okay. Chris: And then it kind of drops off after that. All right. This one's slightly harder. Total number of groups we've covered on the show. What do you think? Kayla: Oh, like, what do you mean by group? Chris: Like, like a topic like we have. You know, because, like, we've done, like, a lot of multi parters, so it's definitely not 60. Kayla: Right? So we've had 60 episodes. I'm gonna say 40 groups. Chris: That's close. Kayla: How much? Oh, I was gonna say 35. Chris: Ooh, that 30. Seven's right smack in between.

8:58 Kayla: Well, list them all right now? Chris: Yeah. Okay. That'll be real. That'll be real fun. Kayla: Scintillating podcast content. Chris: I was a little surprised at the low. I was like, I think if I would have guessed, if you were asking me this, I would have said, like, 45. Kayla: Interesting. We did a lot of episodes. We've done a lot of episodes on QAnon, multiple episodes in antivaxx, multiple episodes on the Amish. At this point. I mean, like, even back in the first season, like, I did two episodes on Spirit Halloween. We've had episodes. Chris: What a waste. Kayla: No, get out of here. Chris: I love sp. Those are good episodes. Oh, spirit Halloween. Kayla: We've had episodes where we haven't talked about a specific topic, like this one and some of our other finales. I mean, we've done. Chris: Yeah, we've had the useless filler content, like this thing you're listening to. Kayla: The tulpas have covered three episodes. Right?

9:40 Chris: That is true. There was the two. The two topic episodes, and then the next season we had an interview with. With Nickto and Susie. So anyway, if you wanted that breakdown by season, we had 14 groups in the first season, twelve on the second season, and eleven in this third season. Kayla: Oh, no. Chris: Why oh, no? Because it's decreasing. Kayla: It's either. Either we're getting busier or we are deep diving. Chris: We're more diving deeper. Well, it's. I think part of it is just that we had a lot of, hey, let's talk to so and so because they're interesting. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: This season, I think that's basically what did it. The decline. And from season one to season two, I think, is pretty much just because we had those five that were dedicated to QAnon. Okay. How many countries do you think we have listeners in?

10:25 Kayla: Oh, I've looked at this, too. Chris: No, much smaller. Kayla: Oh, yeah, that was a fake guess. Chris: Wait, that was a fake guess. Kayla: I mean, there's, like, a hundred. Chris: That's not how it works. You can't just say it was a fake guess if you get it wrong. Cause if you got that right, you would have been like, oh, I'm so smart. Kayla: It's clearly not 100. I'm sorry. Chris: That's sketch, man. No, it's like. No, it's much higher than that. Kayla: Now tell me. Oh, shit. Chris: Yeah. That's a lot of countries. Do you want to guess the top five? Kayla: You should be able to get, I think, United States. Chris: Yeah, that's number one. Kayla: Canada. Chris: That's number two. Kayla: England. Chris: Mm. UK, technically, but yeah. Kayla: Give me a hint on what continent the next two are. Australia.

11:08 Chris: Its own continent. Kayla: So Australia. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So that's four. Chris: And we're back to Europe on the fifth one. And this. Another hint is this is the first non english speaking country. You will have said Germany. That's right. Kayla: Really? Chris: Very good. Well, that's our top five. Kayla: Interesting. Chris: That list kind of makes me wonder if we should, like, I don't know, like, figure out how to localize in a non english language somehow. Cause that's just like that. Kayla: Basically just podcasts. Chris: Well, it just. Basically just says, like, yeah, because you're in English. All of your top countries are English speaking. Kayla: Like, I'm sorry, I cannot learn another language for the podcast. Chris: No, I don't think I can either. But I don't know. There might be some services out there that translate, although it's an audio format. Never mind. I guess we're boned.

11:53 Kayla: Yeah. Sorry. Chris: I. Oh, well, how many guests do you think we've had on the show? Kayla: Ooh, I don't. I honestly don't know. I wouldn't even be able to guess for this season. Cause it was so many. I feel like we had eight this season. I don't even know. Chris: I want your guests for every single season together. Oh, that is so close. Kayla: Tell me. Oh, tell me them all. Chris: I will not. Cause that's another boring list of me just saying names. But actually, if you count. You're actually correct. If we count a our Patreon episodes, it is 20. Because one of our Patreon episodes, we had a guest that wasn't on the show. We had our musical producer talk to us about his views on the voluntary human extinction movement.

12:35 Kayla: Oh, that was a good one. I forgot about that entirely. That was great. Chris: If you count Patreon, technically correct. So good job. Kayla: Yay. Chris: And if you count all the people that we've talked to that haven't actually been, like, guests on the show, actually, I kind of lose count there because it's been a lot. That's a lot. Like, you talk to a whole bunch of tulpas, and you talk to the cicada puzzle solver, and I talk to the people from Twin Flames universe. Kayla: Right. Chris: So there's just. There's been a lot. If you count the, like, people we've talked to that haven't been guests. Okay, finally, here's the big one. How many total hours of content do you think we have published? And are you ready to be either embarrassed or excited or both? Kayla: Okay, well, let's not. Okay. Are you counting? So just with the episodes published onto our libs and feed.

13:21 Chris: Yes. I am not counting all of the content that we have on Patreon. I did not look that up. Kayla: And you're not counting raw. You're counting. Chris: I'm counting the published, final edited content. Kayla: Okay, so it's not. So we have 60 episodes. Chris: Well, I'm. No, 59 is of the time of this. Kayla: Okay, well, we. It's more than 59 hours. It's probably closer to 120 hours. Okay, I'm gonna say 150. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Oh, no. Chris: You're actually off by a lot in a direction you probably didn't assume. Kayla: 100 hours, 60 hours. Chris: 100 is very close. Kayla: Really? Chris: If you listened to every cult or just weird episode back to back, you would be listening for 6361 minutes, which is equivalent to 106 hours.

14:12 Kayla: Wow. Chris: Or in other words, nearly four and a half straight days of listening to our shitty podcast. Kayla: Hell, yeah. Do it. Challenge. This is a challenge. Chris: Now, this is the cult or just weird challenge? No, please don't, like, accidentally kill yourself by, like, not doing anything but listening to us for four days. Kayla: That's what a cult leader would ask you to do. Chris: Our shortest episode was the first episode of season two, the experts, where we talked about deprogramming practices, and the cult awareness network, past and present. That episode clocked in at just a shade over an hour. 62 minutes. That kind of makes me think, like, need to spend more time on that one, because learning about how problematic the yinti cult movement can be was, like, one of our most eye opening experiences doing this show.

14:57 Kayla: Oh, it's changed our lives. Chris: Yeah. Our longest episode was part two of our vaccine and anti vax deep dive, which clocked in at a whopping 3 hours and 54 minutes. Kayla: That's too long, you guys. Chris: Nearly 4 hours of hearing me yap. I am so very sorry. Kayla: That's way too long. Chris: That's way too long. Kayla: That's way too long. Chris: And on average, if you do the math, our episodes are 108 minutes long each, on average. Kayla: All right. I'm okay with that. Chris: Of course, there's some variance there, right? Because obviously, we had that four hour long episode, but that's 1 hour and 48 minutes on average, so maybe we should work on shaving that down a little bit.

15:42 Kayla: I prefer a tight 90, just in general, for anything. So. Chris: Yeah, okay. Thank you for indulging me on that number, Wang. That was fun. I always like number. Kayla: Weighing stats. Chris: Yes, Kayla, stats. Stats, stats. Whatever you thought it was at first. Let's travel back in time to the last year I remember as being not terrible. We were all so innocent and wide eyed, roaming the streets in large number with no masks on, with goodwill in our hearts, and finding camaraderie and catching virtual pokemons.

16:22 Kayla: What a time. Chris: What a time to be alive. Now, I don't like to get too partisan on the show, and, yes, I know we've covered QAnon, but I truly believe that is a political cult that isn't necessarily partisan, because anyone can get sucked in as we have demonstrated with the interviews that we've done on our own show here. There are plenty of people on the left that find their way into the cult, and rational folks on both sides of the aisle should be uncontroversially against what QAnon does and represents. But just in the interest of telling the story here of cult are just weird, I do have a little bit of partisanness that I need to mention. There was a political event in 2016 that felt disastrous to Kayla and I. The one in which was it?

17:05 Chris: The eventual God, emperor, and savior figure of QAnon got elected president of the United States. And apologies to any audience members we might have who would have felt the opposite. They would have felt it was disastrous if it had gone the other way. Apologies to you. This is seriously not intended to be anything other than Kayla and I were feeling pretty distressed that winter, but we like animals, and Kayla had already volunteered at this big animal rescue center out in Utah a few years ago at that point with her sister. So we said to ourselves, you know, it might be fun to do this winter. It's kind of like get away from everything, get away from the news. Let's go back out and let's volunteer at that animal rescue place again. Maybe we'll even see some snow like the rest of Utah.

17:50 Chris: Kanab is beautiful country. Kanab is where this particular rescue is located. So we did. We went and spent nearly a week at best Friends Animal sanctuary. Now, this is not an episode about best Friends animal sanctuary. And the reason it isn't an episode about best Friends is because, as long time listeners will note, we already did that episode. Kayla: That was the first episode. Chris: It was culture just weird's first episode ever, and that was the start of our and your cult are just weird journey, sort of. It actually took us a little while before we, like, finally turned that experience there into a narrative, into an episode, into a podcast. Podcasting was never something we thought we'd do, or at least, I don't know. Kayla, you had already produced a podcast for the tv show leverage way back in the day, and you were doing a podcast with your friends. So maybe podcasting was in your blood, but it certainly wasn't in mine. Do you feel like you were just.

18:48 Kayla: Kind of like a lump on a bump on a log, and I was doing it all? Chris: Well, that's okay. I don't know if I'd characterize it that way. Kayla: No, no. I am utilizing hyperbole in order to showcase. Chris: Oh, utilizing hyperbole. Kayla: Yeah. It's my favorite thing. To do is my favorite hobby. No, frankly, you and I talk a lot. Chris: That's a fucking understatement. Kayla: So I think it's like a podcast. Chris: All the time here. We always pause tv and talk. Kayla: You guys, it's horrible. Chris: Somebody rescue both of us. Kayla: But I will say that you don't remember it, and I've said it on the podcast before, but even before we set out to make this podcast, we had the idea to create some sort of narrative storytelling or some sort of documentarian content about cult like groups. And because I worked in tv, the initial idea was like, yeah, let's get, like, we should, like, you know, put something on Discovery Channel about this.

19:46 Chris: Obviously, it's a bit harder than a podcast. Kayla: You and I do not possess the resources to run out and make a Discovery Channel documentary. And so we decided, look, other podcasts that we like are Dan Carlin sitting in a room talking about his research or, you know, my favorite murder. The two, Karen and Georgia, having conversations with each other about a topic that they're very interested in. You know, we have the same resources that those folks did when they started their podcasts. So why not, you know, take this energy that we have for this topic and put it into something that we are capable of producing? I think it makes sense that we ended up in podcast.

20:27 Chris: I guess you're right. It's. There is a low barrier to entry, so any moron such as ourselves can just talk in a microphone, and people will some reason. Kayla: Podcasts are baby. Chris: That's the whole industry. I mean, look at Joe Rogan. He can do it. He's a total moron anyway. Yeah, you're right. I guess it does make sense. But to this very day, I don't know. I still do kind of feel, like, surprised, almost like, weirded out. Like, why am I co producing a podcast? How did that happen? It still feels weird in a way. Kayla: Sure. Chris: Certainly. The story behind best friends animal sanctuary is extremely interesting, and it's full of. Wow. What? Seriously? It's full of a lot of twists and turns that way.

21:09 Kayla: I think it's still one of my favorite topics. Chris: Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a reason that was the thing that made us go like, oh, my God, we got to talk about this stuff, because it is. It's. To this day, I don't know if we'll ever, like, I don't know. I think it's always going to be at the top. Kayla: I'm always just chasing that high. That's what this entire podcast is just me trying to recapture that feeling of when we slowly, it was slowly dawning upon us that there was far more than meets the eye at this animal sanctuary. Chris: Right? So that's. Yeah, that story totally enticed me, but I mean, you know, I was a data scientist and game developer. I never really had the thought of like, oh, people will actually give a shit about the words coming out of it my mouth, which is like, obviously still a mistake, by the way, you shouldn't listen to anything I say ever. But I wasn't like, oh, yeah, I gotta do a podcast. My tipping point motivation came. I think we talked maybe a little bit about this with Travis Vue because he sounded like his origin story for QAnon Anonymous was somewhat similar. But it came when I started doing the research for the Ramtha school of Enlightenment. What the bleep do we know movie? Because I don't know.

22:11 Chris: Suddenly I said like, hey, I've always been into skepticism and I have a background in science doing a podcast where we talk about these things and help people to feel less isolated and less like they're crazy for resisting quantum flap doodle misinformation. Maybe that'll be really fulfilling. And so that was like, really my turning point when I was like, yeah, I'm in. Okay, let's fucking do this. What? Like, I'm curious. I guess you kind of already answered this a little bit, but like, what, did you have a tipping point like that for you where you were like, yeah, I got to do a podcast about this? Or was it just kind of what you were already saying about, like, interest in cults and ability to get our voice out? Kayla: Chasing that high, baby. Like, it's literally just so the. I'm not joking when I say chasing that high. And I think it's for me, I have an obsessive relationship with things that I find interesting, and that leads to me doing a lot of learning about said topic, which on a great day leads to those moments of discovery and those moments of what the hell? There is more than meets the eye here. And I am addicted to that feeling of, like, I could never have predicted this. I could never have predicted this. And so those are some of my favorite topics, like best friends or, I mean, I will never get over loving hut. And the fact that, like, this delicious restaurant is a cult or just the.

23:40 Chris: Soul phone was really good for that. Kayla: The soul phone was great. I mean, because that was all like, you. Chris: It was like, hey, here's this crazy person. I'm like, okay, you know, there's a lot of those. And then the next episode you're like, anyway, so he can talk to the dead over this phone. And there's. He's assembled an 18, like, oh my God, that one was. Yeah. Kayla: Anyway, so what I feel about this podcast and what I think we've, one of the things we've learned on this show, or one of my takeaways for this show is I really do truly believe that there is no inoculation against indoctrination into a cult. There is no surefire inoculation. There's no foolproof method for making sure you can't be targeted or recruited. I think under the right circumstances for all of us, this is something that can happen to any of us. And to me, that makes it feel like there's something, there is something innate in the human condition when it comes to cult like organizations. And that's part of why, like, that's part of why I'm a writer at all.

24:44 Kayla: Like, I write for a living, I write as a hobby, I write as self fulfillment, and I write about things that move me on this very, like, human condition level, understanding ourselves. And that's the shit that I write about is always that the shit that I write about always tends to come out of this place of when, like, a topic that I'm obsessed about sparks a, like, deeper human condition meaning in my, like, brain. And that's kind of what ended up happening with this podcast. So it's like things like QAnon, things like the line Cicada 3301 Anonymous, which we've only talked about tangentially on the show, but. But things like that. Incels I was researching well before the show started.

25:32 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I was researching you're deep into. Chris: The incel community forever. Thanks a lot. Kayla: I was researching them because of this, like, obsessive, you know, interest. And the obsessive interest really does when I strip everything away. It really does lie at this intersection of this says something fundamental about the human condition. And this is obsessively interesting with more than meets the eye, right? That's my creative brand, you guys. Chris: Well, that's a good answer too, because I asked you what your tipping point was for doing this, and you have very clear vision of what that is. And I think that makes sense to me. Knowing you, that all checks out for sure.

26:16 Kayla: I have ADHD is what, basically, it's. Chris: An exact worth saying. It's a medication for that. And then you guys have to come. It's like any other cult, right? You have some sort of like mental illness and then everybody else joins along in it. Kayla: There you go. Chris: That's what it is. Anyway, I don't know if you remember when were sort of, like, ideating on the show. Cause, like, we didn't just say, like, let's do it and record. Like, we talked a lot about it. And a lot of what we talked about was, like, you know, wouldn't it be interesting to talk about groups like best friends that are in a gray area right between what is a cult and what is not a cult? That was, like, kind of the whole thing. Ooh, are there other gray area things where it's like, what is it or isn't it? And were. Well, first and foremost, were ignorant.

26:57 Kayla: Super ignorant. Chris: We still are ignorant, but were tremendously more ignorant at the time. Kayla: So we thought we named the podcast cult are just weird, which I think if were to name it today, it's so pithy. It is very pithy. But I think we would have a longer conversation about it. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: About whether the usage of the word cult is appropriate in that context. Chris: Yeah, potentially you're right. Kayla: Ship sailed, though. Chris: Yeah, it's totally sailed. And I think we also were thinking at the time, like, oh, at least I was. I was like, there won't be that many groups in this gray area. So, like, you know, I don't know. There's, like, best friends and, like, maybe there's, like, I don't know. Mlms seem weird, but what else? I don't really know, but I don't know. So it may not be a lot of content, but let's give it a whirl. And we quickly found out that actually, there is nothing but gray area. It is all gray area. So our content pipeline is actually infinite. There's no such thing in an academically precise way of speaking as a cult, which kind of speaks back to what you were just saying. Let me say that again.

28:00 Chris: A lot of the shit that I'm talking about here, we say it in passing on various episodes, but because this is our step back and summarize episode, I'll say it again in flashing neon, cults aren't real, at least not in a well defined way. I think that's our, like, our first big bullet point of, like, this is what we've learned along the way, wouldn't you say? Right. That's kind of the biggest one, maybe. Kayla: Yeah. I think that it's very hard to accept the fact that. Yeah, cult is an imperfect word. Chris: Yeah. So. Yeah. But I think importantly, like, that doesn't. That doesn't mean that cults don't exist. Like, they're not real, but they don't not exist. So what I mean is, like, because, like, if were just talking about, like, 100% fake news, like, all this shit is fake. Like, we. Like, we wouldn't have continued the journey, right? So the way I like to think of it is this is, like, cults aren't real in the way that, like, chairs aren't real. Right?

28:50 Kayla: I hate you. Chris: I can show. Kayla: I can. Chris: Why do you hate me? Kayla: I hate this example. Chris: I can show you pictures of a dozen different objects, and you can just sort of, like, point out which ones are chairs. Are you like, that's a chair. That's chair. That's chair. But when you, like, really scrutinize closely, things start to break down. Like, what if I use this tree stump over here to sit down every time I'm on my computer? Does that make it a chair? What about this throne of, like, King Louis XIII sitting here in this museum here? Is that a chair, even though nobody sat on it for, like, hundreds of years? Kayla: Is a toilet a chair? Chris: Was King Louis throne ever even a chair in the first place? Or was it always actually a symbol of power? Yeah. Is a toilet a chair or is it a toilet shitter? Is it plumbing? And so I think cults are similar.

29:36 Kayla: Is a kitchen counter a chair? When you sit on it casually at your crush's house, is that what you do? Chris: Oh, girls do that? Kayla: No. Anybody hopping up on a counter is cute. Chris: Yeah, I ain't doing that. That's not happening. But I think cults are similar to that. Sort of, like, you know, what is a chair, right? We as humans have mental heuristic, like, a mental, like, rule of thumb for what we think a cult is. We can do our rough, intuitive judgment, and that's good enough most of the time, right. We can say whether something feels like a cult or not. Like, if I say to you, this group seems cult like, you now have a sense for the properties of that group, even if you don't have, like, a precise or detailed understanding of the group in, like, a very minute minutiae sort of way. Right, right.

30:23 Chris: The same way if I said, like, this piece of furniture I'm talking about is a chair, you now can, like, have a fuzzy sense in your mind of, like, the properties of that piece of furniture. You can kind of picture it even though you're not sure. Like, maybe it's tall, maybe it's wide, maybe it's skinny. Upholstered, wooden, made out of stone somewhere on the spectrum. Blah, blah. Kayla: Stump and kitchen counter. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Toilet smack in the middle. Chris: That's. That is the chair spectrum, y'all. But that's. That's kind of how I view it. I mean, I know you said you hated that analogy, but, like, I hate. Kayla: It because it hurts my brain. Chris: But does it also heal your brain? Kayla: No. Chris: Great. Okay, so anyway, I hope that I've hurt everybody's brain. This has been cult are just weird.

31:05 Kayla: No, I think that is where the discomfort lies, in the fact that cult is an imperfect word and that cults aren't quote unquote, real. There's not then answer. It's just, this isn't real or this is an imperfect word. There you go. Chris: Like, maybe, but no, but maybe we can describe it. Right? And that actually brings us to everyone's favorite part of the show. Kayla: Oh, you found a piece of paper. Chris: The paper crumple. The cult criteria. We knew right away, of course, if were gonna have a show called cult are just weird, where we'd be deciding whether groups were cults or just weird, we couldn't just say, like, yeah, it feels culty. All right. Okay, bye. Tune in next week.

31:49 Kayla: We need a rubric. Chris: Yeah. We knew we needed some way of evaluating. So, going back to the chair analogy that I know you love so much, if we're going to do a whole show about whether an object is a chair or not, it's not enough to say it feels sittable. We got to say whether the object has three or four or five legs, whether it has a back. It's made of wood, plastic, or metal. Kayla: Upon which to rest. Your posterior. Chris: Yeah. How big it is, the posterior or the chair? The chair and the posterior. It's really the relative size there. It's the ratio. Kayla: Yeah. The ratio between posterior and chair size. Chris: That's the most important thing. Kayla: Flat surface size. Chris: So you and I sat down, complete. Kayla: And on a chair. Chris: Utter non expert. It might have been a couch. Is a couch a chair?

32:30 Kayla: Yes. Chris: Jeez. Kayla: I know. So it's a bed. Chris: I don't. I don't. Okay, stop. Let's stop right here. So we sat down on something, complete and utter non experts that we are. And in a fit of blindingly irresponsible hubris, we made a list of cult criteria. At that time, there were only six. Charismatic leader, expected harm, presence of ritual niche within society, antifactuality and consumption of life. And I don't want to suggest now that we did zero research to come up with these, because we did do some, but these were primarily based on discussion about what constitutes a cult in our own minds. Kayla: Right?

33:10 Chris: Again, going back to the chair analogy, if somebody said they saw a chair, what are the things that you start picturing? Legs, back, sitting surface, etcetera. The things I mentioned before, the presence and style of these elements makes something feel more or less chair like. And so this is basically what we did with the cult criteria for the show. The presence or style or absence of these elements make something to us feel more or less cult like. Was that irresponsible of us? What do you think? Kayla: No, I don't know if it was irresponsible, but it was certainly. I don't know. Chris: I don't know. Fuck it. I mean, I have answer, but I was just curious what you think maybe.

33:55 Kayla: I don't think the criteria have had a lot of, like, measure have. Have done a lot of measurable harm in the world. So it feels okay right now, but, like, if tomorrow CNN put up our criteria as, like, these are the definitive, you know, list of cult things, I would feel pretty upset by that. So, I don't know. Chris: I mean, I think that's part of what. It's why it's important to have an episode like this where we talk about, like, hey, the criteria are not, like. Kayla: If criteria are imperfect. Chris: You know, if it's a, then it. You know, then it's a snarf. Whatever. Kayla: I don't know if it's a, then it's a snarf. Chris: If a, then snarf. It's not about that. It's about actually what I'm about to talk about is that my answer is that I actually like the. Like, if you asked me was that irresponsible of us, I'd be like, maybe a little, but I actually like them. And it's precisely because literally everything is gray area, right. That we talk about. Right. Like, as long as we are clear about that, then in a world where there's no well defined line between what is or isn't a cult, then what's actually important, what's salient and enlightening, is to talk about the specific properties of that thing in detail. And I think it's the criteria that help us do that, help us crystallize those things at the end of the show, actually.

35:09 Kayla: Yeah, I think you're right. I think that something that. I think were filling a need for ourselves. Because I think that though, because the word is imperfect and because it's not a real, like, academic word, it gets thrown around a lot, and especially since doing this show, when somebody is saying, like, this thing is a cult. Nxivm is a cult. Like, we're watching a documentary. Whatever. Nxivm is a cult. Scientology is a cult. This MLM is a cult. I'm going. You're not defining what that means. Chris: Mm. Kayla: You're utilizing a shorthand. You're assuming that you have the same shorthand for this word as your intended audience, and that without anybody clarifying what that means, you're assuming. We're all assuming a lot, and that feels, you know, why. That's a reason why the word is so useless in some ways, right?

35:58 Chris: Yeah. It's like, I don't know if the audience. If the entire audience is picturing the same chair that the person on, you know, the NXIVM documentary is when they say chair, and since they're not describing the chair, it's like, okay, I hope it's the same. Kayla: Is it a recliner or is it a rocking chair? Chris: Right. Or especially because it's like, you know, cults. It's kind of like the pejorative and, like, the assumption of abuse and that sort of thing there, too, is like, actually, maybe it's an electric chair. So it's like, you should probably try to get this right. But, yeah, I think that the criteria help us do exactly that. So, like, groups that have a single charismatic leader that feel like there's a power imbalance and one human has undue influence over other humans.

36:39 Kayla: Right. Chris: That feels cult like. Groups that cause harm to their members, whether sexual abuse or other forms of abuse that are normalized or where families are separated or bank accounts are drained, those groups feel cult like. Groups that have a lot of ritual activity that may be obtuse to outsiders feel cult like. After all, humans are suspicious of what they don't understand. Groups that are smaller and more niche within their culture feel more cult like. And this criteria, I think, is always really showcased that cult need not be a pejorative necessarily, but because a niche group hasn't been accepted by the wider culture, like, say, a major religion or corporation has, it feels more cult like. Groups that deny basic facts of reality, offer their own reality, and have logical mechanisms in place to prevent dissenting thought feel cult like.

37:29 Chris: Groups that place a very high demand on the amount of time, energy, and resources of their members feel cult like. Groups with a highly dogmatic belief system, we are right, and everybody else is wrong tend to feel cult like. And groups which promote recruiting or chains of abuse, such that a victim becomes an abuser themselves, and it becomes hard to distinguish between the two. Feel cult like. And finally, actually, there's a 9th one we've been talking about. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: We've been discussing maybe adding to next season. Groups that do not feel safe to exit from and that punish you for doing so tend to feel cult like. Again, none of these things by themselves is a precise and rigorously measurable way to, like, detect a cult.

38:12 Kayla: Right? Chris: None of these things come from a trained sociologist, but they are the things that make Kayla and I, based on our knowledge and experience, feel like a group is cult like. So, to recap on our cult or just weird journey, we've learned there's no precise definition for cult. All groups occupy some sort of gray area, and we have found our criteria, while admittedly non expert, to be a useful framework for at least talking about the properties of groups that we discuss on the show. I wanted to spend a little extra time talking about the criteria, since it's like, you know, DNA of the show. But we've learned so many more things over the past three years. Just kind of do some quick hits here, and please feel free to add if there's things that you feel like you've learned that I forgot got.

38:56 Chris: I've learned that there's an awful lot of mlms out there. I did not know. I was like, I thought all of them. Kayla: Every company is an MLM. Chris: All of them. And they're like. And they're all so culty. Like, it's. I just thought it was like, oh, the wake up now one is pretty weird, but, like, mary Kay is probably fine, but it turns out they're all just, like, some level of, like, I assumed that because, like, herbalife has a giant building and, like, sponsors the La Galaxy soccer team, I'm like, well, they're probably on the up and up, right? And it's like, no, they're just. There's all some. There's all. They're all weird. I've also learned that it's fascinating that some groups can feel so disparate, yet so similar. There's so many similarities between a lot of these things we've talked about. Chris: Like, twin flames universe could not seem more different than something like Team Beachbody, but there are a lot of similarities in, like, the structure and the processes, if not the content. Right, right. I think we talked to Matt Remsky this season about that, where it's like, there's so many things that just use the same playbook right across it doesn't like, it's content agnostic. Like, there's so many. There's any content you want to throw onto it. It's actually the playbook that makes it feel cult like. That's definitely something I've learned. Learned that context is the most important thing. We're obsessed with context of the show.

40:09 Kayla: You gotta have the context so important. But, I mean, that's really. Yeah, that's. That's an important thing because I think that what we've learned is that without establishing context, using the word cult is maybe the unethical or, like, ethically questionable thing. If you don't have context and you're assuming a shared definition, you're wading into some murky territory. Chris: Murky and even maybe risky. We're talking about people's lives. I've also learned that some groups get the cult moniker, and then when you dig deeper, it turns out that was actually kind of reductive. And there's a lot more interesting stuff going on under the surface. My favorite example for this is actually when we talked about cargo cults, and John, from. Because you're like, cargo cult. Oh, look at these weirdos that make, you know, airplane landing strips just. But then you actually, like, look into it and you're like, oh, that's actually not really what it is.

41:02 Kayla: Right. Chris: So it's. It's. Yeah, those are some of my favorite things. When it's like, oh, that's not what I thought. I think tulpas was kind of like that, too. It's like, oh, that's a weird cult like thing. Kayla: But then you discover, oh, it wasn't a, like, a rejection of the word cult. It was like, a rejection of the word weird. Like, I think that tulpas is a huge turning point for us in, like, making sure we're clarifying that if we call something weird, that's not a pejorative. Yeah, that's. That can actually be a huge positive. And, like, I don't think there has been a topic we've been more pleasantly surprised by than tulpas. And, like, this is a hashtag tulpas forever podcast. I will support. Chris: It's like half. It's like half our listeners, right. Kayla: I love it.

41:43 Chris: So I've also learned that there are definitely some aspects of certain groups that make them more or less attractive and addictive to a person, depending on the person, depending on the context, and depending on the cont. Yeah, that's basically. Yeah. Saying depending on the context. But as you mentioned earlier, nobody is immune to the pull of cult like groups. And in fact, smarter people, especially those who tend toward the creative side of smartness, can actually be very good at constructing intellectual defenses for completely irrational beliefs. And I will also say, as have I. I will also say that I don't even think it's really correct to describe cults as having a pull.

42:24 Chris: And this is maybe just like, semantic mincing on my part, but because that starts getting us into the territory of the other big thing that we've learned on the show, which is brainwashing. That ain't it. So there's no scientific support for the existence of brainwashing. Cults don't really have a quote, unquote, pull any more, really, than any other groups have a pull, which is part of what we mean when we say it's all gray area. You know, I was in a meeting for Cutco knives when I was in college, right? I was like, I thought it was real. So if I wound up selling Cutco knives in college, did that mean that I was brainwashed by the Cutco MLM, or did the Cutco MLM appeal to extremely real, extremely valid emotions and desires I have already living in my brain?

43:11 Kayla: And that you had at the time as a college student? Chris: Yes. So if I sold cutco again, was that because I was brainwashed or because I simply bought the lie that I was going to make a ton of money when I needed it a lot, and I was influenced by that underlying desire to accumulate wealth and prestige? Did my mom sell Mary Kay because she was brainwashed, or because it gave her a real sense of camaraderie with her friends and got her out of the house and taught her things about sales? Do people get brainwashed by Q posts, or is it that the Q mythology gives them a sense of hope that they so desperately need, that we all so desperately need, and other Q and honors give them a sense of community, and the knowledge they get from Q posts fulfills their desire to have this, like, secret knowledge and feel in control.

43:58 Chris: So I do think it's appropriate when folks talk about, like, cults and cult leaders exerting undue influence, but I think we have to be careful about what we mean when I say undue influence, what I mean is nearly every group, cult or otherwise, every group of people uses some form of influence, some form of, like, I have something that you want, right? Kayla: If you've ever worked at a company, right? Chris: Exactly. But when that influence is exploitive and accumulates resources one side and suffering on the other, it's undue influence again. Kayla: If you've ever worked at a company. Chris: Hashtag not all companies, but that is a good point. Like, we can say, okay, Scientology is cult like because it does accumulate resources one side and suffering on the other. But, you know, so do a lot of. Yeah, so does certain corporations. So do certain companies.

44:50 Kayla: Look at Amazon. Chris: So, like, yes, you might call one a cult, but, like, is the other one exhibiting cult like behaviors? By doing that. Kayla: Right. Chris: By using people's underlying needs and desires to manipulate them. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: They're both doing that. So all of these groups we've talked about on the show, from best friends to teal swan to Cicada 3301 to twin flames universe to QAnon, anti vax, Tartaria, Zumba, the gravel boycotts, Pleistocene park, the Amish, and all of the other ones, it's been us doing the research and discussion of these groups that have given us these learnings that I've been talking about here today. And that's why I wanted to share those learnings with you. Not you, Kayla. You, the listener.

45:36 Kayla: You don't want to share anything. Chris: Yeah, I'm very selfish, especially cookies. But it's because you, the listener, you are on this journey with us, and that's really what this podcast is about. Kayla and I are not psychologists. We're not sociological researchers. We're not trained journalists. We, like everyone, have been involved in some form or fashion with groups that one could reasonably consider culty. But we are not trained experts in this domain. Now, perhaps we are on a journey towards that expertise. And like all good educational journeys, there isn't an end point. So the value we offer on culture, just weird isn't from the viewpoint of an authority or an expert. The value we offer is, and always has been a passenger seat in our weird ass podcasts journey.

46:25 Kayla: I think then we should talk about where the journey goes from here. We've talked about the journey up into this point, so let's talk about what the journey looks like going forward. Chris: Is this so people can decide if they want to get out or not? Kayla: Yeah, this is pulled over. We're at the bus stop. We're gonna talk about some things. And, yeah, you can decide if you wanna stay in that passenger seat. Chris: Spoiler alert. Get the hell out. Get out. Kayla: This is the end of the line. Like Chris said, we've learned a lot over the past three years of the show. The evolution of the show has largely been shaped by the way current events unfolded since 2016. In a lot of ways, the kind of groups we've always been interested in those kinds of groups that really grabbed at our brainstor back in 2016, and specifically the kind of group dynamics exhibited in those cultures. Those have become more and more in the mainstream. That's a fraught way for things to evolve.

47:21 Chris: Yeah, I mean, I talked about, like, the thing that got me that tipped my interest here was, oh, let's talk about Romford School of enlightenment. Neat. I can debunk that dumb little thing. And now it's like, oh, that's everything everywhere, all the time. Kayla: Everything is romfah. It's maybe not the greatest thing in the world that we can see cult like tactics all around us. And it's not even just that we're seeing them all around us, it's that we're seeing them in power all around us. We're seeing them shaping society all around us, and they're not going anywhere. I'm gonna get a little bleak, but it's not bleak. It's not bleak. It's just gonna sound bleak. Covid is surging with a vengeance. People are still trapped on the Internet. Our political landscape is more and more radicalizing and divisive. In the states, we have fewer social safety nets than we did a year ago. The climate crisis continues to loom. Income inequality continues to worsen. The world is a scary place to live in right now.

48:16 Kayla: And the scary world is full of folks, either one desperately searching for a crumb of anything to help them cope, or two folks that are selling or promoting things to others under the guise of helping them cope. And a lot of those promoted coping mechanisms, as we have seen, fall into cult like tactics. As our economy worsens, more people will turn to mlms or prosperity gospel as areas of the world become uninhabitable or experience more extreme weather disasters. We're going to see more people turn to climate denialism or to magical thinking as more and more people contract Covid or die from it. We're going to see more and more people emerge with anti vaxx, anti mask rhetoric. We're going to see people turning more to fraudulent faith healers, false resurrectionists, like we saw with grab a boy, those kinds of things.

49:04 Chris: Full spectrum of wellness fraud. Kayla: Yeah. As our political landscape becomes more divisive and identity based, cult like mentality and high control will infiltrate what it means to identify as a member of a political party. In short, QAnon's not going anywhere. Anti vax science denial, pyramid schemes, cult of personality, they're not going anywhere. And we are currently steeped in culture. Basically in every corner of american society. And that's part of what's so overwhelming with COVID It's not just there's a virus rampaging. It's what it has done to all of us individually and all of us in a society. Chris: We were already. We were like a fragile pane of thin glass in terms of our information, hygiene, and infrastructure. And Covid just came in and, like, wrecking balled it. And that's not good.

49:53 Kayla: So I have a question. Chris: Wait, when does it get not bleak? I didn't catch that. Sorry. Kayla: Maybe. I don't know. I have a question for you. Chris: Yes. Kayla: How do we stay safe and sane while we're living in a cult we can't escape? Chris: Yes, please wait. Do I have to answer that? Because I don't know. I mean, I know a little bit of what we've talked about. I know the part of our journey that you're on. Kayla: You don't have a pat answer for me right here. Chris: Just do it harder. Do it harder. Vote harder. That'll eat your wheaties. Diet and exercise, and then you're good. Kayla: Something you and I talked about just today is that with this show, it's kind of felt like, you know, we've been watching a tsunami or a riptide from afar. Like, we've been watching it from the beach and we've been, like, you know, speculating about it and intellectualizing about it. Yeah. And now, in 2021, going into 22, we have to accept the fact that the tidal wave has hit us. We are currently caught in a riptide.

50:58 Chris: We are nipples deep and crazy. Kayla: We can't just keep intellectualizing about it and researching on it and discussing it. We have to learn to float. We have to learn to keep our heads above water. We have to learn how to swim in it. Chris: Ew. Kayla: I know. Chris: So it's like swimming in poop water. Kayla: Well, I mean, there's poop in all of the water. Fish poop, even poop. Chris: Just keep your mouth closed and the end. Kayla: Plug your nose. Hope for the best. We've slowly. You and I have begun to explore this. Like, how do we learn to swim in it? Throughout season three, it kind of started unknowingly, and it creeped up on us a little bit. So something that started coming up in our interviews, especially in the latter half, we made it a point to ask folks who come on the show, you know, how do you take care of yourself? How do you keep yourself afloat while steeped in the worst of what the Internet has to offer? The worst of what society has to offer.

51:47 Chris: How do you swim in poo water? Kayla: How do you swim in the pooh water? And we've had great answers. You know, hiking, looking at trees, taking showers, taking social media breaks. Chris: You definitely need to take a shower in poo water. So I'm gonna keep milking this one. I'm sorry. Kayla: Perhaps one of the most timely answers came from the interview we did with Matt Remsky of the Conspiratuality podcast. We almost didn't ask the question about taking care of yourself. Chris: Oh. Because we ran out of time. Kayla: Running out of time. But he actually felt it was too important a question to pass up. So one thing that Chris and I have been finding very challenging with our podcast and the world right now is the psychological toll from some of the topics that we talk about. Do you also find this challenging, and how do you deal with it? How do you stay healthy? Insane?

52:35 Matt Remski: I totally find it a challenge, and I am trying to recognize that. I spent three years writing the book on Joyce, and during that time, I also did other journalistic investigations into cults and so on. And now, on a weekly basis, my email box is filled with 50 more tips about various groups. And I spent the first year after the book was published trying to field those questions and think about, where am I going to take this next? And I gradually felt more sour and more alienated and more distant and more, I don't know, like, what's the word for being? I felt more self protective of my time as these leads came in. And then I realized it was because I had really worn myself out with this terribly dark material.

53:48 Matt Remski: And also that I had done the best that I could do, and I couldnt really see any positive impact from it. Right. It was nice to have the book praised by people that I respected and so on, but every writer wants the book to change something, and I couldnt really see how that was going to happen with Conspirituality podcast. Ive recently gotten to the same point. Personally, this might be news to my co hosts, but breaking, yeah, breaking news. I'm not quitting. I'm not quitting Derek and Julian, I can say that. But I am saying that I have to say that when I saw the news report that Joe Rogan had contracted Covid and thought he was curing himself with Ivermectin, I was like, oh, I can see how this is going to keep going.

54:51 Matt Remski: I can plausibly write out the timelines of the 20 top influencers in conspirituality going forward for the next six months. This one's going to pivot to cryptocurrency. This one's going to keep going nuts on critical race theory. This one is going to incorporate more and more anti trans bullshit into their QAnon stuff. Christiane Northrop's going to run for political office in Maine. I can all of, I realized that, like, I know how those stories are going to go and all of those stories are garbage, right? Like there's no end to the absurdity of what this culture will produce. It's like there's no real answer to climate collapse either. Like these are hyper objects.

55:47 Matt Remski: The notion that as a journalist you can bring somebody who's not doing something obviously illegal to account, that you can bring shame to them, that you can be so thorough with your deconstruction of Mickey Willis and the pseudo documentary that he'll never make another one that's just to completely, its so naive. Its like almost pathologically naive. Its wishing for a world that just does not exist. And you want it to, and you want the world to exist because somehow youre caught on this guinea pig wheel of thinking that youre doing something positive, that you're in a ground war, that you're winning. And I just don't, I don't think that's realistic. And so I don't think that I'm going to have much more time going forward for taking apart Zack Bush's next stupid post.

57:00 Matt Remski: I don't think that I'm going to spend any more of my brain cells on the, you know, Yolande Norris Clark talking about how fat trans people are ending civilization. Like, there's no, it's not just that it gives these people oxygen, it's that it poisons the soul, really. And for me anyway. And so my commitment to my own psyche is not only to keep doing a lot of hiking, but I'm really just going to start finding the people who are providing, or at least trying to answer the questions that the people who are reaching out to Kelly Brogan for answers are asking. Because it's an economy of supply and demand. The demand is for meaning. And the conspirituality supply is just garbage. And so I want to start spending the majority of my time looking for people who are listening clearly to the questions.

58:11 Matt Remski: Like what do the conspirators get right? What do the anti vaxxers get right to listening to those questions and figuring out what the real useful, forward moving. Kayla: Hopeful answers are that question helped, or that answer helped me a lot because I think that we're dealing. We're dealing with this very much in the same way where it's like, oh, cool, Joe Rogan has Covid and now he doesn't have Covid, and now he took ivermectin. And we can see how this is going to go. And it's just. It's crazy making, and it's. Chris: It's a fire hose. Kayla: It's a fire hose. And it's. Matt Remski: It's never. It's never going to stop. It is never, ever going to stop. Thinking that it's going to stop is kind of like thinking that late capitalism is going to. Is going to reduce carbon in some meaningful way. It's not. It's just not going to. I don't think it's going to happen. We can make it less bad by focusing on the people who have the best ideas.

59:12 Kayla: Moving forward on cult are just weird. We want to take a page out of this book. So next season, or maybe a few pages, we want to take a chapter. We just want to take the whole book. Chris: Just steal. Kayla: Steal this book next season. We want to be more solution focused than problem oriented. This shift came up in that interview with Matt Remsky. But I mean, also in our interview with Travis Vu, Travis talked about taking a step back from shining a spotlight on, like, every horrible QAnon disinformation related topic that springs up on the Internet. Matt Remsky, in that interview, talked about being able to, like, see the future of how all of these fraud influencers will play out. And both of them talked about how, like, the plethora of conspiracy theories, cults, and high control groups on the Internet and out there in the world is just, like, overwhelming. And so all of that really got us thinking. So now more than ever, in these.

1:00:01 Chris: Unprecedented times, I love your marketing speak there really, you could be a chief marketing officer. Kayla: I'm just trying to say that, like, you know, before any other point in history, at least in our lives, we at culture just weird. Basically have an infinite source of content for the show. It's like you talked about earlier, there will never run out of content. And it's just becoming like, that's just rapidly escalating, right? Chris: There's going to be more. Too much content next year than there was too much content this year. Kayla: There are a million more topics for us to cover. More topics than we could ever hope to cover. Like, we still haven't done a show on climate change, denialism or Scientology or herbalife or PETA or the January 6 insurrection, or the Moonies or incels or a gazillion other things.

1:00:45 Chris: Like, even if we only did actually, that's the thing. QAnon Anonymous only does QAnon, and they have a glut of, like, they can't even keep up with it. Kayla: Right? In our current time and place, what do we actually find meaningful about doing another episode on whatever 2020 two's version of Tartaria will turn out to be? How instead, can we fart Faria Tart Fardia? Chris: I don't know. I'm getting a little punchy at the end of the season. Kayla: How instead, can we allow this show to become one of the helpers? Chris: That's a really good way of putting it. Kayla: We're still brainstorming on exactly what this means for next season, and honestly, we'll probably continue to, like, figure out what that means during the journey of making next season. Yeah, this will change, but for now, we know we want to focus on things like self care in the realist sense of that phrase. Like, how do we prioritize caring for the self in terrifying circumstances? How do we stay sane when the world descends into madness? And, like, what does self care even mean? Is self care its own cult? Like, we could probably make a pretty good case for that at this point, honestly, because it's like the phrase has been co opted by, like, opportunists and grifters and just like, you know, people trying to make it a brand and turn it into a buzzword and a marketing strategy.

1:02:04 Chris: Wait, so are we starting our own wellness cult? Kayla: Is that what you're saying? We could, but I don't want to. I want to be an actual helper. How do we return to, like, the core of what self care quote unquote, means? Yeah, so I think this is going to look something like, you know, we want to do more interviews with folks in the cult slash new religious movement slash disinformation research, Internet culture, skepticism, place and focus on the ways they're presenting answers to the problems we already all know are out there. So we want to explore more the ways in which people in these spaces maintain their sanity, find community, find support, and largely combat despair.

1:02:45 Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: We want to connect with people who have extricated themselves from high control groups and learn more about those healing processes. We want to give our listeners tools to survive the cult like culture we're living in. And I don't think this means that we're not going to tackle specific groups and topics from time to time, like we have on the show. We probably will pick certain groups and talk about them, but the focus is just going to be a little different. Like, it will come back to, how do we find peace in our lives when this seems impossible? Because I think with a lot of these topics, it's just like, oh, God, the world is an awful place, and I'm terrified. So let's figure out how we maintain our sanity, maintain that, like, sense of self in the face of all of this.

1:03:31 Chris: To me, it feels like a shift in our intentionality. Kayla: Right. Chris: Not necessarily a change. I think it's. We're going to make a real effort to be less about the, like, look at that crazy thing. Look at that crazy thing. Look at that crazy thing and be more intentional about what are the solution oriented things we can do? What are the self care things we can do? What are, you know, like. Actually, I think what might have made a good. You know, if I could say this episode actually could have lived in season four, it would be like the pleistocene park stuff. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Particularly the interview with Nikita Zimoff. Kayla: Right. Chris: Where it was primarily about solutions, not about, hey, there's this crazy climate denial group, and they're gonna blow something up and fuck everyone. Like, right. It's more about the helpers and the solution oriented and the self care and just sort of pivoting that way in an intentionality sense.

1:04:24 Kayla: And I really keep coming back to the word healing as we talk about this. So if I were to predict the future, I think that there might even be some episodes where we talk about groups that you and I have ourselves been involved in and kind of focus the scope on those episodes of what the healing process has been like for us, because that's, you know, we. We bring a lot of personal experience to the show, so, you know, why don't we share those kinds of things? Chris: Yeah, actually, if I could add that back to the list. I was saying earlier about the learnings, I have learned that, like. Like you said, nobody's immune. It's not just that. Nobody's immune. I think. I just think that everybody has been touched in some way because, like, I have definitely been involved in some groups where if, like, if I go and look back now, I'm like, oh, that.

1:05:07 Kayla: Was pretty culty, everybody. Chris: And I just think that's true for everyone. Kayla: Everyone can look back and go, oh, that teacher was doing this, or that priest was doing this, or that boss was doing this or that. Like, I read this, I joined this, or, yeah, like, yeah, I read a book that I was really obsessed. Like, it touches all our lives because I think, again, going back to what we said at the top, like, there is some measure of the human condition in all of this. It's just a human thing. So, like we said, this show has evolved so much since day one. It has grown in scope and scale, in focus, and in ways I can't even think of. And you, our audience, have also been on that same journey alongside us and with us. So this is where we are, and we think a lot of you might be there, too.

1:05:52 Kayla: You might be ready to unplug the terror machine a little bit or ready to turn off the fire hose of disinformation and learning about the crazy shit that's out there. You might be ready to heal something inside yourself or tend to your sanity a little bit. So cultured is weird. Season four. Let's go touch some grass. Let's go ahead and learn how to swim. Chris: Touch grass, touch grass and swim in the poop. Kayla: I don't want to swim in the poop. Chris: That was my favorite picnic day in high school. But, yeah, I think the reason we keep sort of in this episode have been using that journey terminology is because of the reason I think that we're doing this is largely selfish, right? It's. There's largely this, like, we. And actually, even if you go all the way back to the beginning, it's. There is a selfish element of, hey, we think this is interesting, and I personally find it fulfilling to talk about skeptical stuff, and you personally find it fulfilling to deep dive into your rabbit holes. And I think now we're finding that is interesting and cool. Like, we still like that stuff. But when we make this podcast, I think selfishly, for us, it will be much more beneficial to be solution healing helper, self care oriented. And I. That's.

1:07:14 Chris: And therefore, that's what the podcast will be about. And hopefully that's something that, you know, you will continue to enjoy coming along with us for the ride, for Caleb, before we sign off for 2021 here. I figured since this is, like, our step back, evaluate ourselves, take a breather. Why don't we go ahead and evaluate ourselves with the criteria? Is this show a cult? Because we don't want it. Like, this is. We got to be careful now because we're not gonna be like, that's the thing. We can't be saying, like, yeah, we're gonna tell you guys some wellness stuff to do. I don't want to. Kayla: I'm not telling anybody wellness stuff. Chris: This is more this is like, we are gonna be doing stuff that we talk about. Like, hey, I'm hiking. Maybe that would be good for you too. But I am not prescribing anything. I'm just saying we like touching grass. Yes, but let's evaluate ourselves just to be sure. Okay, charismatic leader. I mean, that's obviously me. Oh, wait. Oh yes, right now.

1:08:22 Kayla: I was. I'm shocked. Chris: Oh my God. Okay, based on how we both answered that, obviously it's you psychopath. Chain of victims. Now I feel like a victim. Kayla: Me to you? Chris: No, I think the chain of victims is from us to our audience. I think we are victimizing our audience. Like we read about some bullshit. Kayla: Yeah, actually. Chris: And then they're all like, oh God, now we're abused. So that's high expected harm, I think. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: So is this like funny or legit? Cuz like, I. I don't think we're actually bringing harm. Kayla: Okay. I hope not. Chris: Jeeze. But yeah, it's going back to, you. Kayla: Know, if we're saying that we're chain of victiming, then we're doing harm.

1:09:04 Chris: I guess that's true. Percentage of life consumed. I mean, hopefully you guys are doing nothing but listening to this podcast. Kayla: One of our episodes was 4 hours long. Chris: Oh, yeah, that's high. Kayla: We calculated exactly how many hours of content we've created. So how much was it? 108 hours. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So 108 hours of your life has been consumed. Do you feel good about that? Chris: I feel. Kayla: And you and I, it's probably like great. Triple, quadruple, ten x. Oh, yeah, it's. Chris: Much more than that. Oh, okay. So that's very high. Is it niche? Yes, sadly, it's still niche. But obviously we would like to dominate the entire media. Kayla: Get us more famous than Joe Rogan, you guys. Chris: Yeah, please. Antifactuality. Literally nothing we say is true. Kayla: I. You know what? This one, I know we're being like.

1:09:46 Chris: I am chock full of motivated reasoning for this one. Kayla: I'm gonna go. No, the whole. Chris: Really. Kayla: The whole point of our show is to be like, self analytical and, like, checking our biases and, like, checking the biases of others. So, no, I would say we are not anti vaxual. Chris: Well, while we're on the, like, getting real with it here, I would actually say that because of how much of how important that is to us, I would say that there's probably some antifactuality that we are not aware of. So there's probably some motivated reasoning that we are not aware of. There's probably some biases that we have brought to the table we are not. Kayla: Aware of has that. But we're not being antifactual in the way that the groups that we talk about are being antifactual. We are doing a much better job than everyone else on the planet. I think that if you're gonna get.

1:10:34 Chris: A slippery slope here, charismatic. Kayla: We're the best. I think that we are more likely to have dogma and dogmatic beliefs of. Chris: We'Re right and everybody else is wrong. Yeah, maybe. Kayla: Which is maybe anti factual. Chris: Yeah, I don't know. Like, those. Now I'm starting to feel like that's a shitty criteria, because those feel similar. Yeah, but it's. No, I said, okay. So I think that for antifactuality, we do our level best to bring as much truth seeking as we can to what we do on the show. But I have to acknowledge that we are as. As fallible and flawed as anybody else. And so I can't rightly sit here and say, like, antifactual low, we never get anything wrong. We've probably gotten stuff wrong.

1:11:17 Kayla: Okay, well, if we're joking about it, then, no, I'm not antifactual ever. Chris: Okay, well, fine. Great. We are joking about it. That's perfect. All right, so dogmatic. I love dogs. So, actually, the whole show started based on dogs. Kayla: That's true. So that is the most dogmatic podcast. Chris: That is right. Ritual. Kayla: What do you think we're sitting here speaking into, yapping into. Every time we do this, we, like, set up our little podcast room. Chris: Oh, God. Yeah. Kayla: That's mean. We're doing the ritual. I don't know about our. Chris: And we have. And we have a catch for phrase. Yeah, that's pretty ritualistic. Kayla: That's. You and I. I don't know if that spreads to others. Chris: People have, like, said that to us on, like, Twitter and Instagram. Kayla: That's true. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: You guys, you're in a cult. Call your. Chris: All right, listen, let's do this new one just in case. We add it for next season. Is it safe to exit?

1:12:00 Kayla: No. If you try to leave, I'm gonna find you. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: If you stop listening. Chris: Don't stop listening. Kayla: We got hackers looking at your computers. Chris: And your phones, and they'll give you bad viruses and stuff. Kayla: Yep. So don't stop listening. Chris: Yep, that's right. So we're a cult. Is that. Everyone's pretty high. Kayla: Correct. Chris: Sorry, listeners. You are. You are in the presence of a cult. You are all part of a cult. Kayla: But you're also in the presence of greatness. Chris: You're in the presence of charisma. Question mark. Kayla: Not question mark for me. Chris: Well, anyway, thank you for going on this long and weird and convoluted journey with us. I hope that you continue on the ride with us into the new year 2022. Have yourselves a merry little holiday season. A merry little Christmas or whatever it else. Festivus. Whatever.

1:12:48 Kayla: It's already passed. Chris: Oh, yeah. Okay, fine. I hope you have a merry little college bowl season. Kayla: Just say happy new Year. Chris: Happy New Year. And I guess the only action item we ever have is don't like and subscribe. Just listen and enjoy. This is Kayla, and this is Chris. And this has been season three of. Kayla: Cult or just weird. Happy New Year.