S2E9 - The Device (The Soul Phone)

0:40 Chris: Wow, you sound like you're really into this. Kayla: I'm not. I'm sick and I'm tired. Chris: All right, well, we're gonna bring you a great episode here today, folks. Kayla: I didn't know we started. You were the one who was like, what do we do? What do we do? I didn't know we started. Chris: Well, we had some microphone trouble here, peeps. Actually, it was more computer trouble than microphone trouble. Kayla: Microphone's fine. Chris: That's what we're talking about. In case we keep any of this. Kayla: Your computer. Chris: But what were saying before my computer crashed is it's crazy that we have a podcast at all. It's not something I ever would have thought of myself doing. And so, I don't know, it's just one of those, like, why do we have a podcast? Kayla: That's weird, because I had an idea for a tv show, and you took it and repurposed it for a podcast.

1:22 Chris: I took it? Kayla: You took it? You stole it. Chris: You had another podcast for, like, a year before we started this. Kayla: Nah, we recorded. Chris: Yeah, I know. Kayla: The first episode and the other first episode of the other podcast at the same time. Chris: I know, but then. Kayla: Then you took a year to get your shit together on my television show idea and turned it into a podcast. Chris: Yeah, and also, you're welcome. Kayla: Then I could have sold this to discovery. I could have sold this to TLC. Chris: You wish. Kayla: God, I just. Chris: There's not nearly enough drama in this for us to sell it to TLC. Kayla: That's not happening. Just give somebody a marriage license, and. Chris: Then, well, we're married. We could just yell a lot more. Kayla: It could just be 90 day fiance podcast. Chris: Oh, shit. My mom listens to this. I can't say that.

2:02 Kayla: Yeah, please don't. Please don't call me a bitch. Chris: Okay, cut that out. Well, you're the one that brought up TLC. Kayla: They're not running around calling each other bitch all the time. Chris: Aren't they? No, they're doing. Oh, okay, fine. I'll throw cake in your face. Kayla: I don't know. That's better. Chris: By the way, this podcast is actually a cake. Kayla: Everything is a cake. Chris: Zing. Kayla: How do you know this microphone is not a cake? Chris: I know it's a cake. Look, if I put frosting on and it's a cake, forget Twitter. That was already true. Kayla: You want to cut it open and see what happens? Chris: Not particularly. Welcome to the show. That we're not sure why we had. Kayla: Welcome to the show. That's definitely a cake. Chris: Welcome to the cake. Kayla: The show itself is a cake. Chris: I'm Chris. Kayla: I'm a cake.

2:44 Chris: And this is cake or just cake? Kayla: That's what the podcast really. Chris: Cake or just cake? Maybe that'll be our episode title. Kayla: I wouldn't mind having some cake right now. Chris: I would enjoy cake right now. Kayla: I see that you've got something pulled up on your screen, so clearly you've got some business to attend to. Before I hop into the second half. Chris: Of my talk, I was just taking a look at our world of text page culture. Kayla: Just weird. Chris: World of text page your world of text.com culture. Just weird. Like share, subscribe. And it's just cool because we have, like, a bunch of little graffitis on it from people that have dropped by to say how much they like the show and they're listening to it. And one of them is from frickin Iceland.

3:27 Kayla: Thanks for stopping by, friends. Chris: So cool. Kayla: It's really cool. Chris: And at some point in the future when Americans are allowed to travel again, I would really love to visit Iceland. Kayla: Yes. Chris: It looks beautiful. I just think it's so cool that we have international listeners. I don't know. It's rad. Kayla: Thanks for going to our. Your world of text. Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's fun to scroll around. Chris: It is. Kayla: If you haven't gone there yet, you should check it out. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Is that your business? You ready for my topic? Chris: Yeah, let's do the content. Let's grind out this content. Kayla: This is my third episode in a row. Chris: Yeah, I know, but I had a few in a row. That's how it works. Kayla: You had two in a row, my friend. Chris: I had two topics in a row. Yeah, so did you. Two episodes in a row. This is a two parter.

4:08 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Maybe we should say that. Actually, it's the second part of a two parter. New listeners may not. Kayla: Well, if you're listening to this new, go back and listen to the other one first, and this will clearly say, like, part two on it. Chris: I like how you're. You're like, raising your voice against new. If you're a new listener, you go back to hell. Out of here, stupid. Kayla: No. Thanks for being here if you're a new listener. But yes, this is the second part of a topic that we started talking about two weeks ago, so go back. Chris: What is. Kayla: Listen to that one. Don't jump ahead of me in my script, or I will flip a desk and walk out of here like the diva that I am. Chris: I didn't know you were in a script. Oh, we should do our scripts on world of text from now on.

4:49 Kayla: No. Way too hard. Chris: Why? This was typing. It's all typing. Kayla: No, no. Chris: It's a good idea. Kayla: No, it's not. Chris: We'll talk about it later. We'll get to that. Kayla: Okay? So be quiet because now it's time for me to talk. Chris: Okay? Kayla: Don't react at all. Let's just power through. No. Chris: Let's get that TLC drama going. Kayla: Okay? Two weeks ago, we introduced this topic, the topic of afterlife science, which for our purposes has been defined as the study of phenomena associated with survival of consciousness after death, including near death experiences after death communications, life after life, parentheses death and reincarnation. We also talked about Doctor Gary Schwartz, a psychologist, author, and professor at the University of Arizona, and the director of its laboratory for Advances in Consciousness and Health, who is at the forefront of afterlife science. He is our charismatic leader of this topic.

5:43 Chris: Go Wildcats. Kayla: We also talked about the Forever Family foundation, an organization he founded to, quote further, the understanding of afterlife science through research and education while providing support and healing for people in grief. So this organization vets mediums. They have a recommended reading list that covers everything from life after death and near death experiences to UFO's and remote viewing. And they provide support groups for bereaved parents. Doctor Schwartz's pursuit of afterlife science has a personal bent, as he was originally a professor and researcher of psychiatric and psychological studies such as biofeedback. But when a mysterious voice protected him during a car accident, Doctor Schwartz pivoted his focus and began searching for evidence of the afterlife and the persistence of consciousness after death.

6:24 Kayla: A lot of his most well known work took place under the Veritas project at University of Arizona, where he studied mediums such as John Edward and Alison Dubois, mediums who are known to many as, for lack of a better word, frauds. We also talked a lot about how our best accepted science and well known skeptics consider doctor Gary Schwartz's methods and work as unscientific and pseudoscientific, with folks like our beloved James Randy weighing in on his potentially dubious methods. Chris: Actually, I did. I was thinking about some of the wording that we used in last, or some of the wording that I used in last episode. I don't think it's bad wording. I don't regret it or anything, but it just. I just wanted to say one thing, is that it felt wording. It felt a little mealy to me when I was saying like, well, you know, we don't want to question anybody's experiences, but it's a higher standard for me to accept it into my body of knowledge. And I just didn't want to come off as, like, I don't know. A, I didn't want to come off as, like, weirdly condescending by trying to beat around the bush. And b, I also just kind of wanted to say that, like, I think it's okay.

7:34 Chris: And I think, like, for people like you and me, we're very open minded. Sometimes we maybe have a hard time with this, but I think it's okay to actually just sometimes say, I think this person is wrong and their methods are very true. Kayla: I know for me what I didn't want to be misconstrued when were talking last episode, like, there are. We live in a society where a lot of people's experiences, true lived experiences, are denied. And I never. I don't. I did not want what were talking about here to come off as if you experience something. If you can't prove it in a court of law or in science, then it definitely didn't happen to you. And we should question everything that you say. Like, that's a different topic. But when we're talking about, like, the sciences.

8:16 Chris: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a balance. Right? Like, I don't think that you should. Like you said, we shouldn't be denying experiences, but then, like, at the same time, I don't think we should either be just accepting every piece of information that comes into our heads. And I think it's okay to say, I don't like to actually assert, I think that this person is wrong and I don't agree with their methods. Kayla: Yeah, but that's different than saying I don't think you had that experience. And that's what I want to be clear. Yes. Saying I don't agree with their methods is different than I don't think you had that experience. Chris: Well, what about the fact that he, like, heard a voice in the cardinal? Do you think he had that experience?

8:58 Kayla: I mean, if he either is completely lying, which I don't know, or he did have that experience, and I think there is a non supernatural explanation for it, sure. Chris: So what about, I don't deny that. Kayla: He had that experience because as far as I know, he did. Chris: What about that? But you said it could be that he's lying. Kayla: Yeah, it could be that he's lying, but I don't know if he's lying or not. Like, that's kind of why we're here. We don't know if. And that's something that we've talked about a lot on the podcast. Like, we don't know for a lot of these charismatic leaders if they drink their own Kool aid or not. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: Like, I don't know if all these MLM leaders actually believe that their people are gonna make money.

9:39 Chris: Yeah, I think a lot of times they do. Yeah. Kayla: So I think that somebody like this, it's the same. I don't know if he. People believe in supernatural things. People with degrees, psychologically, psychology degrees from Harvard, believe in ghosts and believe in whatever. Like, it's not to me, it's not cut and dried that he's lying. Chris: So are we asserting then? Let's. Let's assume that he believes it, because I think a lot of these folks do believe it. Then is our assertion that you think that this happened, you had this experience, and you think that it was due to reason. Xdev, but it wasn't. It was actually due to reason why. Kayla: Yeah, that's why I told the whole, like, ghost story in the beginning of two weeks. The last episode was because we all have, a lot of us have those experiences where we experience something that feels supernatural or preternatural, natural, or can't be explained by our best knowledge. But again, that doesn't necessarily mean that, like, it doesn't really mean that the conclusion that you jump to is the explanation.

10:46 Chris: Right. Kayla: It's God of the gaps. It's like, just because you saw what you have language for as a ghost doesn't mean it's a ghost. Chris: It doesn't mean that something supernatural is happening. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Right. Okay. Kayla: Especially when we. Especially when we do know that there are reasons grounded in science and physical reality why some of these experiences can happen. Like, we know that there are natural explanations. Chris: There's no reason to seek a supernatural. Kayla: Explanation like infrasound and faulty wiring. Like, we know that those things can fuck with you. Like, we know that there are reasons why a person might see a ghost that isn't necessarily a ghost. So do we feel caught up from last week's episode or two weeks ago?

11:31 Chris: This has been. Oh, sorry. Kayla: Where we laughed off? Chris: Laughed off. Thank you for indulging me on that, because I thought a little bit about my choice of language there. I don't think it was wrong choice of language. It just felt a little like, what's the way to put this on the podcast? It's like it felt a little like wishy washy. I know what my preference is, but this is a collaborative effort. Rather than just saying I would prefer this. Kayla: But I mean, again, I just want to be clear. What I'm saying is that I don't know if this person is lying. I just don't agree with their methods. Chris: Right. Kayla: And I think that I'm right. Chris: So I think it's okay to say that. Kayla: Yeah, I think it's okay to say that I'm right. Chris: Damn right.

12:11 Kayla: Damn right. Where we left off last time was hinting that this Gary Schwartz rabbit hole goes even further down and that we need touch on people in the community surrounding Gary Schwartz and the utter strangeness of his more recent projects, the post Veritas projects. Projects. So let's talk about some of those projects. I love the face that you're making. Chris: It's like a grimace. Kayla: Yeah, it's the grimace emoji. So we already talked about him founding the Forever Family foundation. He's also written or co authored nine books, 450 scientific papers. I don't know how many of those have been peer reviewed or like, what journals they have been published in. He has a mixed history of publishing in accredited journals and then, like complimentary medicine ghosty journals. So 450 scientific papers. Take that with a grain of salt. He has co edited, because this is the numbers that I'm reading off right now are from his reporting. So again, take it with a grain of salt. Co edited eleven academic books. He has many bona fides. Gary Schwartz is a fellow of the American Psychological association, the American Psychological Society, and the Academy for Behavioral Medicine Research.

13:33 Kayla: He received a Young Psychologist Award and an Early Career award for distinguished research from the American Psychological association. He served as president of the Biofeedback Society of America and the Health Psychology Division of the American Psychological association. In 2004, he received a Distinguished Scientist Award for energy psychology from the association for Comprehensive Energy Psychology. Chris: Energy psychology. Kayla: Yeah. And in 2000. So again, mixed bag here. And in 2006, he received a Distinguished Scientist Award from the United States Psychotronic association. Chris: What's the United States Psychotronic association? Kayla: God knows. Chris: Is that like psychology of tronics, the movie Tron? Kayla: Yeah. In 2012, he received the distinguished contribution to the science of psychology from the Arizona Psychological association. He is. So that's a lot.

14:21 Chris: That's a lot of letters and associations. Kayla: A lot of quote unquote bonafides. He is a science advisor for open Sciences, which is a group of 300 plus scientists, professors, doctors, and thought leaders who state in their manifesto that the sciences are being unnecessarily constricted by dogmatic beliefs, in particular those tied to the philosophy of materialism aka physicalism and its untestable background assumptions. These dogmas cast a shadow over both science and society at large, predetermining what questions are acceptable to ask and what phenomena are considered possible. Now, materialism, physicalism is probably its own entire topic. But just touch on it here, there is an idea that trends through these circles, that today's science practices are so tied to the quote unquote, aforementioned untestable nature of our assumptions of reality that we're blind to and critical of schools of thought and areas of study that don't mess with those assumptions.

15:23 Kayla: So I saw it explained like this, and this is from something called the Galileo report, which I really don't want to get too into, but it's basically this, like, report being like, we found that science is too dogmatic and y'all should let us study ghosts. Chris: Why didn't they just call it that Galileo report? Kayla: So here's how it was explained. One, no human intellectual activity, including science, can escape the fact that it has. That it has to make assumptions that cannot be proven using its own methodology. That is absolute presuppositions. Chris: Okay? True. Kayla: So far, the prevalent underlying assumptions or world model of the majority of modern scientists are narrowly naturalist in metaphysics, materialist in ontology, and reductionist empiricist in methodology. Three, the result in the belief that consciousness is nothing but a consequence of complex arrangement of matter or an emergent phenomenon of brain activity. Four, this belief is neither proven nor warranted.

16:25 Chris: Five, where did that one come from? Kayla: In fact, there are well documented empirical phenomenon that contradict this belief. That's what the Galileo report. Chris: Not sure where that one came from either. Kayla: That's what the report is about. Chris: I see. So they explain it in the report. Kayla: Quote unquote, explain again, this whole. This is a whole other topic. It just sounds like it pops up here. So. Yeah, I don't know. Do you have any other reactions to that? Because it's a lot. Chris: Well, I don't know. Like, it feels like I kind of want to know what's in the report a little bit. But you're saying you don't want to go down that rabbit hole. Kayla: Like it's a whole thing. Yeah, like, it's basically saying, like, I. Chris: Get what it's saying. Kayla: There's the nature of real existence exists, and we're supposing that it exists, and then that. Then scientists go like, you can't question that.

17:13 Chris: Right. Kayla: And therefore ghost. Surreal. Chris: Right, right. So it. Yeah, that. And that's. So that's the part I said, like, well, that part's true, right? Because there are, in any system of thought or any system of, like, you know, provable theorems, there are axioms that exist in that cannot themselves be proven within that system, right. I think that's, I don't want to out myself being wrong here, but there's, I think that has to do with Godel's incompleteness theorem. So that's like a well known logical thing, right? It's just some of those other things that I would have to read the actual Galileo report to see why they're, how they're trying to justify. Nobody's proven that consciousness comes from matter. Like, I don't.

18:00 Kayla: Right. Chris: I don't know about that. Kayla: Well, and I, like, I get what they're trying to say. I do understand what they're, I understand some of what they're trying to say. I understand that it's like, hey, even with the scientific method and, like, the incredible advancements we as a species have made in science over the last however many years, like, we still don't know a whole hell of a lot. And we should make sure that, like, our scientific community is open to new ideas and crazy, off the wall things. And, like, I get that there definitely is, like, there is dogma among skeptics and atheists. So, like, who's to say that there isn't sometimes blinding dogma in the field of science, right?

18:43 Chris: They're not immune to it. I mean, this itself is an example. This episode, Doctor Gary Schwartz is an example that people in the scientific community are not immune to dogma. So that's definitely true. And I totally see what they're saying about, like, well, if the axioms of science are necessary but also arbitrary, then can't we just pick other ones, right. Sort of out maybe outside the scope of this episode to discuss that? I don't know. Kayla: It's up to you. Chris: I don't know if I have a good thing to say about it off the cuff. Kayla: We have a lot to get to, so we don't have to get too into it. Yeah, let's, I guess I just want. Chris: To say that we'll get to that. We'll get to metaphysics at some point.

19:24 Kayla: So it's worth looking at the dogmas that do exist in, like, our scientific communities and our skeptic communities. But that doesn't discount the fact that, like, yet again, this argument doesn't really hold water and it kind of turns the scientific method backwards on itself to be more about motivated reasoning. Like, we want to believe this thing. We believe this thing. We believe. Chris: So how are we going to address it? Kayla: There's metaphysics and we want to find evidence proving it, which. That's literally flat earth. Chris: Right, but they're questioning science, Kayla, so why would they use science? It's very. It's also a closed logical system. So. Kayla: Fucks my brain. Chris: Check and check back to Doctor Schwartz.

20:06 Kayla: He is also on the board of directors for Eternia, which is a. Chris: What's where he man is from? Kayla: Is it? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: E t e r n e a. Chris: I think it's ia. Kayla: Well, this is Eternia with an e. Chris: Not an I. Oh, less cool. Kayla: And they are a nonprofit organization whose. Their. Their mission is, quote, the mission of Eternia is to support and engage in scientific research, public education, and practical programmatic initiatives to further awareness and acceptance of the fact that eternal existence in some form or manner is a fundamental reality for all living things as an inherent quality of nature. On their landing page, you are met with a graphic of a beautiful blue cloudy sky. And it says, would it help your life right now if you knew or experienced? Question mark.

20:56 Chris: If I knew or experienced what? Kayla: It's just a poorly, like, syntactically structured thing. Would it help your life right now if you knew or experienced. And then it has a bunch of things. You don't really die. A fundamental aspect of your consciousness, energy, spirit survives physical death. You are an integral part of source energy, God, universal consciousness. Right now and always were. You have everything you need to handle all of this life's challenges with style. You will, quote, unquote, see your loved ones who have passed on again. Knowing these truths helps you transform yourself and the planet for the better. Chris: Yeah, so, I mean, I also have.

21:36 Kayla: An about section to read for them if you want me to read that. Before you jump to any conclusions here with your dogma. I'm sorry. I'm apologizing to our listeners right now. I cannot be more biased about this topic. You are getting an extremely biased. Chris: Biased and irresponsible. Kayla: Well, that's my middle name. It's just very clear how I feel about this topic and I'm trying to be balanced. Fair and balanced. It's not working. Chris: Well, fair and balanced is not the best. Kayla: No slogan. It's not as we've. That's why reached out to that one. Okay. Eternia's about section. I'm just gonna read it to you. It's a couple paragraphs, so bear with me. Eternia endeavors to contribute to a profound transformation in human nature, behavior, values, perceptions and consciousness. By promoting comprehension of this reality as pervasive throughout the whole of creation, Eternia reasons that recognition of external existence as a basic fact of life on a broad scale could have enormous implications for positive social change around the world, thereby dramatically improving the human condition. Eternia aspires to accomplish its mission through promotion of unity, oneness, harmony, collaboration, cooperation, cohesion and resonance, which are rudimentary, a lot of c words which are rudimentary cornerstones in natural order for the realization of successful and sustainable outcomes.

23:02 Kayla: This insight is predicated firmly upon scientific findings, considering both the macro cosmological and micro quantum levels of observation. In this manner, Eternia hopes to provide humankind with analytical, scientific and intellectual basis to adopt the firm conviction that discrete individual consciousness survives physical death and qualitatively evolves throughout eternity, while bearing ultimate responsibility and accountability for individual deeds and actions directed at others and oneself. Chris: Okay, I have some questions. Kayla: By undertaking this mission and the strategies underlying it, Eternia hopes to promote the greater good of humanity by serving as an effective catalyst for the overall advancement of human civilization.

23:44 Chris: Is that their whole website? That was really long? Kayla: That's thereabout. Chris: That's thereabout. Kayla: Oh, their website is huge. Huge. Chris: That's like. Kayla: It is enormous. Chris: That's how you know. That's how you know you're digging into something crazy is because it's like way longer than it should be. It's like those YouTube videos that are. Kayla: Like 7 hours a week on page. Went back when she was like, yeah. Who she is now. Chris: Or like the flat Earth YouTube videos where it's like 7 hours. Kayla: You go on Hulu and you're like, ooh, what's this document about the rothschild and the Illuminati? Oh, it's 14 hours long. Got it. Chris: It's like how. I don't even know how you would sit through all that. I don't have the patience for 1 hour. It's also like, maybe that's why we're skeptics, is because we're not.

24:26 Kayla: I just don't have a good. Chris: Yeah, it's a patient. Kayla: You throw a lot of words at me and I'm like, fake, fake. School is a witch. Chris: So, wait, so I have some questions about that, actually. Maybe this one's more of an observation, but, like, I don't understand. Are these folks that we're talking about pro science or anti. I can't figure it out. This is something that came out. I know it's something that came up last time, too, in last episode. Kayla: Okay, they're pro science, but the kind of science that they do, it's like. Chris: They'Re pro science when they feel like it can legitimize what they're talking about. And otherwise, they're like, science doesn't know.

25:06 Kayla: Science doesn't agree with what they're saying, then it. It's not. They're saying it's not. Really? Chris: Then science is dogmatic. And if science does agree with what they're saying, then it's like, science backs what we're saying. Yeah, yeah. It's just every time you bring up science, like, yeah, I don't know. You just read this whole thing from the Galileo project about, like, why science is too dogmatic. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And then you read this whole thing where it's like, we can prove it with quantum things. Kayla: I know. It's also, like, they're about as nice. Like, sure, I get. You know what, dude? Chris: I would love that. Kayla: Okay? I would love to exist eternally, but not even that. I do think it's. It's really cool to be like, hey, we have a mission. Our mission on this earth is to get human beings to treat each other.

25:53 Chris: Better, actually treat each other better, because they're not just saying, like, eternal life. Dope. Right? They're saying, like, eternal life. And I. Therefore, let's all better than this one. Kayla: If you knew you existed forever and this was gonna, like, be who you were forever, you would treat other people differently and yourself differently, and you would behave differently, and that also feels very religious. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I don't mean that as a knock at all. Chris: If I live forever, I could get canceled in the year, like, 30, 75. That would not be good. Kayla: I'm not that you could keep your masked singer job and goddess, but it. Chris: Eternal. Cancel culture. Kayla: One can only hope. But it does feel very like sometimes people don't understand how other people have morality if they don't have religion. Like, how other people have morality if there's not that promise of eternal life. And so I understand why people might look for non religious ways to kind of meet that same need or fill that gap. I don't think we need. I personally don't think I need the threat of eternal life in order to, like, try and be a good person.

27:04 Chris: Yeah, you have the threat of a future super intelligence that's gonna punish you. Kayla: I just have the threat of cancel culture. Chris: Oh, right. Let's do an episode. Like, what makes you moral? Is it Jesus, cancel culture or Rokos basilisk D. All of the above? Kayla: Yes, just all of the above. What is that? That was from rock with basket, where you just, like, believe in everything and you're good. Chris: Right? Right. That's like the ultimate Pascal's wager, Pascal's solution. Do I believe in it? Yes, just in case. Kayla: So I understand. And I think it's great to try and get people to be nicer to each other. Also lame. Come on. You're not doing science here.

27:50 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: You're not. If you have. If you have an entire website about how not just a hypothesis of yours is correct, but how, like, your entire eternal worldview and your view of the universe and everything, including cosmology and quantum reality, you know it all, and you're gonna prove it with science. Like, you're not science. You're not doing science. Chris: Not to get pedantic here, but my question number two is going to be, how do they know that we're eternal? Because eternity hasn't happened yet. Kayla: Well, because a lot of the people that work on things like this. Well, it's my next point. Chris: Okay, well, wait, can I ask my third one? Yes. Well, actually, this is. The third one is also maybe more of an observation. But the third thing was just kind of tying it back to, like, the metaphysics of. Well, you know, what are the axioms? Right. And if. I think that actually, a lot of it comes back to. There's. There's sort of two major things. There's either objective reality exists and we come from that, or conscious reality exists, and everything else comes from that. It's either existence first or consciousness first. That's kind of it. Right? Those. Those are your choices. And I think that's why a lot of these, like, all of these new agey type things that we've talked about on the show and probably will talk about on the show again, all have that same feature of, you are God.

29:14 Kayla: Right. Chris: It's not a coincidence. It's because they're all of that metaphysical starting point, that metaphysical axiom, consciousness first. Kayla: It's like whether you're Ramtha and saying, literally, you are God and you can change your entire reality, or it's the teal swan or the this of, like, you're part of source. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: It's the same thing. Chris: And I think that's, to me, if I'm gonna sit here and say, why would I accept one axiom versus the other when they're not? Neither of them are provable within their system. It seems to me that it's based on my lived experience. How do I wanna put this. Kayla: Sorry that you're not God. Yeah, I know that.

29:55 Chris: I am just a dirty wormhood. Kayla: My life sucks. So clearly I'm not God. Chris: Yeah, I'm not president, despite saying grab him. But, oh, no. So, no, no. It's more just like, not everyone can be God. Because otherwise reality as we know it wouldn't work. It's impossible. Kayla: Right. Chris: If everybody was doctor Manhattan. Sorry to use a. If everybody was all powerful. For those of you that don't know, like, semi obscure comic culture. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Watchmen is so obscure. Chris: Okay, well, it's not obscure anymore because now there's a very successful HBO show. Kayla: Oh, my God. So obscure and esoteric. Chris: Do you think that all of our listeners are gonna know what watchmen is?

30:36 Kayla: I just don't wanna condescend to be I hate you. Chris: I'm trying not to. I'm trying to connect. Not to say, like, you guys don't know, fuck you. No. So what I was gonna say is that reality doesn't work if everybody gets to be their own God. Kayla: I can argue with that. Chris: Whose will wins out? Kayla: We all. It's solipsism is right. We all live in our own, like, our own multiverses, where we are the God of that multiverse, the God of that universe. Chris: I see. Kayla: So every single consciousness, so you don't exist is what you're saying, has its own universe? Yes. Chris: You're a figment of my imagination. Kayla: Or are you a figment of mine, as are.

31:17 Chris: Well, no, because I exist and you don't. Kayla: No, I exist and you don't. Chris: That's exactly what a figment of my imagination would say. Kayla: Agreed. Chris: Also, all of our listeners, or should I say my listeners, since you don't exist. My listeners, you guys don't exist either. Kayla: Yeah, sorry. Or you are the masters of your own reality in your own universe. Chris: Right. Kayla: That's the only way they're in their. Chris: Own universe where they're doing the podcast right now. Kayla: Yeah, but, like, that's the only way that, like, consciousness first works. Chris: Yes. Kayla: And it doesn't. Chris: And I would much rather. And maybe this comes down to a preference then. I don't know. But I would much rather live in a reality where other people exist.

31:57 Kayla: Me too. Chris: And I don't have ultimate power. Kayla: You saw what happened in Westworld. Yeah, I don't want to live in Westworld. Chris: Yeah, yeah. They turned Dolores into a totally one dimensional character in the second season. Kayla: Not what I mean, but sure. Chris: Oh, sorry. Kayla: I just mean, like, that view of, like, if you're trying to square your God in your own universe, and also you should treat other people kind. It just doesn't quite. It doesn't quite all square for me. So I agree with you that my preference and my belief is that we. It's existence first universe. Chris: Well, it's even more fundamental than kindness, really. It's like it just plain old doesn't work. Even if I want something, if my preference or my whatever, I'm God like, working my will on my personal universe, right? If you're there too, and you do something contradictory, if you say unstoppable force and I say immovable object, something has to give and whichever one gives, all of a sudden, not God anymore.

32:56 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So either we live in a reality with other people, which is what I prefer. I would. I hope that you're not actually a figment. Figment of my imagination, or we have godlike power, and that's. That, to me, is what defeats that set of axioms as the fundamental. From what you go from. That's. That's ultimately why I prefer science. Kayla: Yeah, I agree. Chris: It's because I like friends. Kayla: Speaking of friends, I should probably take a second here to come back to Doctor Schwartz's friends, as I mentioned. Chris: Oh, what a segue. Kayla: I know. And we're gonna talk about, like, why the why for some of these people and why they do this. So during all of my research, scouring the websites for the Forever Family Foundation, Eternia open sciences, and everything else touched by Doctor Schwartz, I kept running into the same handful of names. Like, it feels like there's a large core group of scientifically presenting personalities that all hang out in each other's organizations, all publish and promote each other's work, and all support the idea that human consciousness exists beyond the brain and there's life after death. And in a lot of these cases, each person has a personal experience that convinced them of the afterlife or the supernatural, often transforming them from a rational skeptic into a spiritual believer.

34:20 Kayla: So some of these figures are Eben Alexander III, MD, who is a neurosurgeon whose near death experience convinced him that there is an afterlife and consciousness survives death, which is detailed in his book proof of heaven. And he is a co founder of Eternia, Raymond Moody, PhD, MD, a philosopher, psychologist, and doctor who coined the term near death experience in his book life after life. This is back in, like, the seventies, and this is after he encountered anecdotal stories of near death experiences. Also a board member of Eternia, Mark Pittstick, MA, DC I looked up with the masters of something Mad C. It's. Chris: Like Doctor Masters of DC Comics, but we're talking about comics a lot in this one.

35:01 Kayla: Complementary medicine, something like that. A hospital worker with 47 years of experience in a hospital setting, and Claire audient, who has witnessed miracles and Ste's, which are spiritually transformative experiences. He's also a board member of Eternia. Julie Beischel, PhD, who received her degree in pharmacology and toxicology and minored in microbiology and immunology at U of A. She focused her career on testing mediums after having a positive experience with a medium after she lost her mother. And that's really just the tip of the iceberg. Chris: Yeah, I see why this one kind of freaked you out. The same way that talking about Dejafar. Thank you. And Ben lynch and the folks around that freaked me out because there's so many accolades and trainings and titles, right.

35:47 Kayla: It becomes hard for me to look at these people and not wonder, like, okay, well, is there some motivated reasoning coming along with your claims? Like, you've had personal experiences that convince you there must be more, and then you spend your life on research trying to prove it. Yeah, like, remember my ghost story? Did I believe I saw ghosts because I saw them or saw ghosts because I believe them is me thinking there's a ratchet and like, well, okay, so. Chris: Hold on for that particular thing. I am not sure I want to call motivated reasoning on that. I think it's certainly possible. I mean, they probably have motivated reasoning anyway. Kayla: I'm just saying I can't. Chris: But I'm not sure that. Right, but I'm not sure that I want to equate having an experience that drives your life's work to motivated reasoning. Or maybe, I don't know. Unless we want to say that's true for everyone.

36:38 Kayla: I think. Chris: Because I think that happens with a lot of people. Kayla: I think if you. If you are a scientist and you have a supernatural experience, and then instead of going, I want to figure out what happened, you go, I want to figure out how to prove it. What this. The supernatural thing that happened? Because that's not what. Like, doctor Schwartz didn't hear a voice and then immediately go like, maybe I should get a. A CAT scan and MRI. Maybe I should, like, spend half my time studying neurology and the other half of my time studying the maybe metaphysical, right. Chris: He immediately jumped to the one possible. Kayla: Yeah, that, to me, is, what is the motivated reasoning? It's that I believe this thing. Now, and so now. Chris: That's a good point. Kayla: Prove it. It's not the same as, like, I had an experience, and I want to understand it. I'm passionate about it.

37:22 Chris: Right. Kayla: It's. It's. Chris: The scientist should say, do something different with it. A scientist should say, something happened to me. I would like to know more. I want to know what happened, not something happened to me, and I would like to therefore prove that it's the thing that I think. Kayla: Right. Another unifying theme amongst all these folks. Well, you've already heard it. Keep an open mind. Keep an open mind for everything. Otherwise, you're dogmatically rejecting the very ideas, experiences, and advances that will take humanity to the next level. Chris: Ooh. You don't want to be responsible for preventing humanity from transcending Kayla. Yeah, come on. Kayla: Keep an open mind. You dogmatic. Chris: You party pooper bitch. You transhumanist party pooper.

38:03 Kayla: So, okay, this is where it gets weird. Chris: So, wait, this is where it gets weird? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: So, like, this is. Chris: Where do I need to smoke? Kayla: This is where it jumps. The motherfucking shark. Chris: I can't believe that we haven't jumped the sharon. No, we jumping. Kayla: We are about to jump. We were jumping. Chris: It was like a barracuda guppies before. Kayla: Okay, so as I jump. As I jump into the last stop on our journey through doctor Schwartz's professional life. And, you know, I mentioned last episode, things are gonna get weird. I urge you, Chris, and our listeners to keep an open mind so that.

38:44 Chris: I don't prevent us. Yeah. Kayla: Yes. I would like now to talk to you about soul phone. Don't laugh. Chris: Stop. I can't do that. Kayla: Don't laugh. Chris: Just stop recording. Kayla: What do you think soul phone is? Chris: Is it a tv show? Kayla: No. Chris: Is it. Is it, like. Is it like Soul plane, the movie, except with a phone? Do I. Like, I call Soul phone and, like, aretha Franklin's on the other side? Kayla: No. Chris: What is it? Kayla: Soul phone is a lot, but I'll do my best here. Soul phone is the general name of the current project doctor Gary E. Schwartz is spearheading, along with his research assistant, doctor Mark Pittstick, whose name you'll remember from earlier. The soul phone brings spirit communication to life.

39:40 Chris: Okay, so that's. I mean, aside from all the joking about soul plane or whatever. That's a good guess. That's kind of what I was thinking. Kayla: At the risk of just fucking reading shit to you again, let me read you the landing page for cell phone. Chris: Okay, but hold on. I was. This is. If it's talking to the dead, then that's kind of what I was picturing. Kayla: Yeah, but we'll get to that. What would it mean if you could communicate with departed loved ones and learn from scientists, great teachers, and others who have passed on, but definitely not passed away? Chris: Wait, hold up. It's not just my own family members. It's like. Kayla: Oh, just wait. Chris: Oh. Oh, shit. Kayla: Oh, just wait. Chris: How much does this cost?

40:20 Kayla: Just wait. Chris: I want to do it. Kayla: Just wait. It may sound impossible, but it's not. Do you feel there may be an afterlife where you'll continue to live after physical death? Do you think deceased people, especially your loved ones, can contact you now? Can you imagine that technology may someday enable visits with loved ones living on the other side? After your body dies? Would you want to visit with your loved ones who are still on earth? If you answered yes to just one of these questions, you may be interested to learn more about technological breakthroughs that could enable reliable communication with those who have passed on. The soul phone TM devices will someday allow you to visit with your deceased loved ones. That may sound impossible or too good to be true. However, definitive replicated and multicenter scientific experiments run in 2019 show it isn't only.

41:13 Chris: 1999 a minute, 199 each additional minute. Kayla: As I got into cell phone, and I'm still not convinced that it's not, but I was like, there's an MLM somewhere here. There's somewhere in here. There's an MLM. Chris: There's gotta be. Kayla: I did not find it. I don't think there is. But I was like, there's an MLM. Chris: Maybe it's an MLM of the dead. Maybe it's like, maybe your upline is the deceased, and then, I don't really know. Kayla: Upline is the living and your downline is the dead. Or the other. Chris: Something like that, yeah. Kayla: Also on the landing page, you're met with a video from doctor Mark Pittstick himself, recorded in March of 2020, reiterating that, again, science has proven that there is life after death and we can communicate with passed on loved ones. He states that the.

41:58 Chris: Is there an asterisk that science has not proven this? Kayla: No, no. He's like, we did it. I know we did it. He states that the two benefits of soul phone will be the ability to communicate with dead loved ones and to learn more from dead scientists and teachers. Chris: What's the expiration? Because this is like, seriously, this is the quintessential dinner party question, right? Kayla: This is like, I don't think there's an expiration. Chris: Can I talk to Alexander the great and Jesus, like? Kayla: I think so. Chris: Okay, so I need to put my list together. Kayla: Well, the next step is for hopefuls just like you to become a member and raise funds for R and D. Your donation helps. Share this great news. Oh, also, come on.

42:48 Chris: U of a. Kayla: The cell phone Foundation 501 application is still pending with the IR's Jesus. Your donation helps. Share this great news. Where else have you heard the phrase, have you heard the good news? Let me share this great news with you. Chris: Like, that is very mega church. Kayla: Yeah, yeah. It's just. It was so interesting to keep hitting. Great news. Great news. I was like, there's only one other area where I've heard this. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Some other advisors on this project include Raymond Moody, the guy who coined the phrase near death experience, allegedly Eben Alexander, the guy who wrote proof of heaven. Before that, he was a neurosurgeon, as well as at least eight, quote, evidential medium advisors, including some mediums who were part of Doctor Schwartz's afterlife experiments. The rest of the team working on sulfone includes software specialists, electrical engineers, and optical physicists.

43:43 Chris: I can't believe this is being incubated at, like, a major university. Kayla: Babe, babe. It gets so much worse. It's also worth noting this is just, like, some technical stuff. It's worth noting that soul phone and the Soul phone Foundation fall under another umbrella company organization called greater Reality Living Registered Trademark, which is a book and movement created together by Doctor Schwartz and Doctor Pittsztik. The term greater reality living describes how you might choose to live as you expand your awareness of life. How would you live and treat others and yourself if you deeply knew that life continues?

44:26 Chris: I would kill a bunch of people because it doesn't matter. They're going to live on. It would be awesome. Kayla: Why does there need to be a real life GTA and greater living experience and soul phone and family? They're all saying the same thing because. Chris: They'Re all different ways to grift. This is why, like, remember I was saying last episode, I'm not. This guy is not. Kayla: He's not passing your smell test. Chris: He's not passing my. He believes his own shit smell test. I don't know. He's sounding pretty grift heavy to me. Kayla: We'll get to that. So, greater reality living is basically a community for people who are grieving death or fearing death to all come together in their belief that life continues after death. So there are events. There's online support groups, there's local support groups trained facilitators who run these groups. And there's a store. And Soul phone is basically another branch of this larger trademark 501 c three organization. I wanted to show you the Soul phone Foundation logo and the greater reality living logos. They're the same. It's the same logo.

45:27 Chris: Oh, wait, that's two different places. Kayla: Yeah. The Soul phone foundation on top, it just has a little bit more like, wispiness around it. And then greater reality living, they're both just like green and yellow spiral circles. And one has. Chris: And those aren't the same organization. Kayla: They're friends. Soul fun foundation is like in the umbrella of greater reality living. Chris: That'd be like if Pepsico. I'm not sure. I think Yum brands owns them all now. But if they just used that blue and red Pepsi logo for Taco Bell and KFC as well. That's what that's like. It's just lazy. Or maybe it saves money. And if you're. That's your goal, then I get it.

46:07 Kayla: That's their logos. There's also a book called Soul Proof, subtitled compelling evidence. You are an infinite spiritual being that Doctor Pittstick wrote that has its own corresponding website that is connected to both soul phone and greater reality living. So it's just. It's quite a tangled web over there. Chris: Yeah. That's surprising. Kayla: So that's the foundation, the fundraising arm supporting R and D of Soul phone devices. Yes, devices. Chris: Devices. Kayla: Because the development of the soul phone. Chris: Wait, why isn't it an app? It really ought to be an app. Kayla: It's not an app. Chris: Aren't they trying to make a lot of money? Kayla: The development of the Soul phone will happen in stages, each new device more spectacular than the last. The first device is the sole switch, TM, which currently exists at U of A, or like some form of. It exists at U of A. And it's basically a little device that switches on or off to indicate yes or no.

46:59 Chris: God, tell me there's pictures of. Kayla: There is a picture. I don't know if it's a real picture of something or if it's like a concept. Chris: And that's concept art is perfect. That's great. Kayla: Just for the soul switch. The accompanying art for these other devices is just stock art of people being on the phone. Chris: Well, that certainly goes with their trying to save money on art theme. Kayla: Yeah. So the sol switch, basically, a device switches on or off to indicate yes or no when communicating with hypothesized post material collaborators or hpcs. Chris: What?

47:39 Kayla: We'll get to that. What the f is that the next step will be Soul keyboard TM, in which a series of soul switches will be able to create a keyboard. So, this stage of the Soul phone device would allow you to text like you can now with your cell phone, with loved ones who have changed worlds. Chris: And then can it be an app? Can I text with my deceased loved one? Can I text Genghis Khan? He'll probably be getting a lot of texts. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: I need to find somebody who's less famous, but, like, still cool. Kayla: Can you guess what's next? Chris: Not that he's cool. He killed a lot of people. Let's see. So the first one is soul switch and soul keyboard. Soul texting. So I. Soul voice.

48:22 Kayla: Yep. Chris: Soul. Kayla: Soul voice. Tm. Quote, this device. Chris: Soul podcasting. Kayla: Not yet. This. Well, we'll get to that. This device will be the closest to what people think of when they hear the term soul phone. It will let you talk on the phone and hear those that have died. And they say, like, we don't know what this will look like, but it'll be like talking on the phone. Chris: Like, our listeners can hear us right now. Kayla: Yeah, but with a dead person. Chris: Okay. Oh. Oh, no. I don't speak Macedonian. I'm gonna have to learn different languages and stuff. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: I mean, even Macedonians today probably don't speak whatever the hell Alexander the Great spoke. Kayla: I sense there may be a problem here. Chris: Oh, no. Okay. Note to self.

49:05 Kayla: Finally, let me read to you about the last stage of these devices, which, of course, is soul video tm. Chris: Oh, shit. Kayla: Wait. After that, we envision a Soul video device technology that will allow both video and audio visits, much like present day Skype, FaceTime, or Zoom. Wait, wait. Audio video conferencing is the next best thing to really being together. This stage of development will open new doors to continued relationships with those who have passed on, but definitely not passed away. Wait. Soul video. Wait. Soul video will also enable webinars with esteemed, deceased luminaries. They are not suffering from limited sense perceptions, as most humans do, and can enjoy a more unobstructed view of life. In addition, just wait.

49:54 Chris: So many questions. Kayla: They have been working on ways to improve what they were doing while living on earth. Chris: Oh, so it's. Kayla: Wait, it's like. It's like the good place, as Nikola Tesla said during one meeting. Chris: Well, they already had a meeting with Nicole Tesla. Kayla: If you think what I was inventing while on earth was amazing, wait until you see what I've been working on here. Chris: Okay. All right. So first things first. I am now 100% sure that these guys are lion grifters. Kayla: You think so? Chris: Oh, yeah, yeah. There's no way. Like, it's far too. Kayla: How is this real? This is what I was. This is what I was reading about that made me check. Changed my entire topic. I got to soul phone, and I was like, I'm sorry, this is real.

50:44 Chris: Okay. Second of all, webinars. So are we talking, like, could I have, like, a conference call? Would it be like, hello? Hello? Are you. Is afterlife on? Yeah, is afterlife. I can't hear. Oh, okay. I can hear you. You're just a little staticky. Are you on mute? Does afterlife have. Okay, we're here from the conference room. Kayla: It's like a. It's literally like a Skype call, but, like, the person on the computer is, like, a little more, like, grainy. Chris: Well, that was actually. My next question is, like, what do they look like? Do they look like ghosts? Do they look like they did in life? Do they look like rotting corpses? Skeletons, maybe? Does it depend on what we don't know. Kayla: That's why you need to donate to them for the R and D. Well. Chris: I thought I was just donating to them for the good news. Kayla: No, that's to help spread the good news. Chris: And also the R and D start spreading the news. Got it. Okay.

51:32 Kayla: So say to say that you're feeling skeptical, right? Chris: I don't even. Skeptical is not the right word anymore. Kayla: Let me tell you right now, there's still a little ways to fall. Chris: Oh, okay. Way to slow roll this. I'm proud of you. This is where your Hollywood writing skills are coming in handy. Kayla: This is. This is all I have wanted to talk to you about for, like, a month and a half. Chris: This is incredible. Kayla: Soul phone. It's all I've been able to think about since I discovered this. Soul phone. Chris: What if they're not available? Kayla: Soul phone. Chris: Is there hold music for the afterlife? Kayla: I don't know. Ask beetlejuice. Soul phone. Soul phone. Okay.

52:15 Chris: You know, I'm gonna have, like, probably another 80 questions as we continue the show. Kayla: That's okay. You know what? Have all of your questions. Chris: Is there afterlife call waiting? Kayla: Hold all of your questions for a moment. Chris: What does it. You know how, like, when you call a place now, like, even if you've never called them before, you're like, no, it says the name, you know, like Johnny's pizzeria or whatever. Like, if I. Kayla: What happens when they call you? Is it just gonna be like, you're dead dad. Like, what is it? Chris: Yeah. Cause it can't just be like, dad cell. Because I would assume that, like, somebody's calling from the. Like, his old cell phone. Kayla: That's why it's like, they're saying it's not really a phone. It's gonna be completely new device. Chris: Oh, it's a different device. Okay. Kayla: You don't know what it looks like. Chris: Yeah, but here's the thing, Kayla, is that our personal devices now are an amalgamation of things that used to be different devices.

53:03 Kayla: Hold on. Chris: Like, there's. Kayla: Don't get too. No, I'm gonna talk about that. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Stop. Chris: All right, sorry. Just go. Just go. Kayla: You shouldn't feel skeptical because there is a. Does a soul phone seem possible? Section where doctor Pittstick explains that when he was ten in 1963, his phone had. His phone number only had five digits and it was still a party line. He would have thought that smartphones were all of these, like, where your camera and your radio and your maps and your emails, because they knew what emails were in 1963. If they were all on the same technology, he would have just thought that was crazy. But the technology is out there now. So just 30 years later, cell phones were patented, and now we've got the computing power in our pockets that was used to send men to the moon.

53:47 Chris: More than that. Kayla: More than that. The rapid development in communication technology shows that the development of technology used to communicate with the deceased is just as crazy and just as possible. Oh, also, there's. This was the part. I mean, this was the part where I lost my mind. Hold on. There's a whole section about Googlymmo Marconi probably saying that name wrong. The inventor of the radio, Thomas Edison, the prolific electric power and mass communication inventor, and Alexander Graham Bell, the inventor of the telephone. At first glance, this news about communication with the dead might seem impossible or even ridiculous to you. Perhaps it would open your mind a bit more if you knew that three inventors from the last century endeavored to create similar devices. There is very little cited in the rest of the article.

54:34 Kayla: It's just a picture of each man with a one sentence explanation. Bell tried to make a telephone to the dead. Edison worked on a spirit finder. Marconi experimented with a radio to the dead. The article concludes by comparing doctor Schwartz's work with soul phone and afterlife communications to the achievements of these men. Marconi and Bell and Edison were genius scientists who helped the world in powerful ways. The many advantages of Doctor Schwarz's work cannot be fully imagined, but you get to benefit from them. All right, so this topic killed me, okay? It destroyed me. Chris: I don't actually know that much about Marconi. I do know that Mister Bell was second to the plate on the whole phone thing. I forget who invented it first, but he was actually second. He just was the one that was able to make it succeed. Mister Edison. More of a patent troll than a genius scientist. But whatever they all wanted to make us, I if. And that means I don't trust it coming from that source. But if we, like Snopes that, or if. You know, I don't know if, like, I read that somewhere. I mean, maybe we should check it out. Cause it wouldn't surprise me, honestly.

55:45 Kayla: No, it doesn't surprise me at all. Chris: Or all three of those guys had tried to do that as like a later in life. They tried. Kayla: Absolutely fucking lutely. I don't doubt that they did. But that is such a logical fallacy, such a appeal to authority of, like, well, Alexander Graham Bell tried to make a telephone to the dead. So you're telling me that doctor Schwartz can't do it. Like, that's literally what it is. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: That's why it's. Chris: And it's like, it's a super appeal to authority. Kayla: It also. There's nothing cited. It's just like. You think this is crazy. Well, Alexander Graham Bell didn't think it was crazy. Here's a picture of him. He wanted to make a soul phone. Chris: Trust us. Look at his picture. Kayla: Are you still not convinced about the reality of soul phone?

56:27 Chris: Yes. Are you reading from the site or are you. Kayla: Oh, that's from me. Do you still have your 80? Chris: Are you recruiting me into your Mlm? Kayla: No, this is just what happens when I get really mad. Chris: I don't know why you're mad. This sounds amazing. Kayla: I'm so mad. Don't worry. I know you said before you had 80 questions. Well, they have answers to common concerns section as well as a skeptics corner. Chris: Ooh, a skeptics corner. Kayla: Both sections are set up as faqs, though one's a little more interesting than the other. Skeptics corner addresses questions like, does established science require that life after physical death is impossible? And are all mediums frauds? All pretty standard questions that are answered with whatever skepticism you have is wrong. Isn't that great?

57:15 Chris: Oh, yeah, that is great. Do they do the thing with mediums where it's like, well, some mediums are frauds, yes. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Chris: But our mediums are not frauds, which is exactly like the well, we're not in a legal pyramid scheme. Kayla: So it's literally that answers to common concerns is a little more interesting. There are nine questions total, four of which are things like, will communicating with spirits leave oneself open to evil interference like standard cell phone concerns? But then the last five questions are, let me read them to you. What about the sland? What about slanderous attacks many years ago against Doctor Schwartz? Doctor Schwartz, how many attacks have been leveled against your work? Why do you think these unsubstantiated allegations occurred? I understand that ten years ago, a journalist falsely reported an incident involving you. Where did these untrue accusations come from?

58:09 Chris: Okay, what are you referring to? And also, I can't wait till they add our podcast to this list. Kayla: Oh, yeah, we're on the list. So, Doctor Schwartz answers. On numerous occasions, I have experienced unfair, unjust, and even malicious reactions from certain people ever since I went public with my afterlife research. In the HBO documentary life after life, I have recounted examples of this extremely unprofessional and irresponsible behavior in my books, the Afterlife Experiments, 2002, the truth about medium, the Sacred Promise, 2011, and an atheist in heaven, 2016. So he basically goes like, read my books. If you want to know, we can talk. Chris: What about your slanderous attacks? Buy my book.

58:52 Kayla: He does talk a little bit more about it. I just thought it was funny that it was, that we're going to talk a little bit more, a little bit later about the specific attacks on Doctor Schwartz. But I just wanted to point out here what an interesting little section we've got. So moving on. The site has calls to action for anyone who wants to support soul phone. Chris: Soul calls to action. Kayla: Soul calls to action. I invite you to a share this information with others. Chris: We're sharing it with our whole audience right now. You're welcome. Kayla: Sharing the good news. Chris: That's right. Kayla: Two subscribe to Free Soul Phone foundation, greater reality living e newsletters c become a member and or donor D attend online and our local greater reality living groups. We are just starting the group, so start one if there's not an established one in your area.

59:39 Chris: Done. Let's do it. Kayla: Donations level go from $5 a month to one time donations of $10,000 or more. Each donation level receives benefits just like a Patreon or a GoFundMe, ranging from signed books to free ebooks to personal meetings with doctor Schwartz himself. Other ways to get involved. Chris: That's like the top tier Kickstarter. Kayla: Yeah, it's, you get to like, you fly out to Arizona and like actually, that was exactly. Chris: That was one of the things that Star Citizen was doing is you could meet Chris Roberts. Kayla: Very star citizen here. You can also attend seed events, soul phone education, ethics, and demonstrations, which are demonstrations of the soul phone device. You can book hope sessions. Have opportunity for post material experience where you.

1:00:23 Chris: Whoa. Oh, that's an acronym? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Wait, what was it again? Kayla: Have opportunity for post material experience where you can visit with a deceased loved one. Chris: Okay. Kayla: You can learn more about the project on a number of podcasts and radio shows that have interviewed the two doctors. Or you can join about 1600 other people who follow their facebook page. So, lots of ways to get involved. It's funny that they're fundraising like this, Imo. Especially because one of the ways doctor Schwartz believes soul phone will help people in the future is by protecting people from shady mediums who are just looking to take advantage of grieving people for money. Chris: Oh, my God. I give up.

1:01:05 Kayla: Not yet. Chris: I'm done. Kayla: We still have a ways to fall. Chris: Podcast is over. Kayla: We still have a ways to fall, my friend. Okay, let's talk some specifics. An article in jewish news discussed an early version of Soul phone in 2015. Chris: What's jewish news? Kayla: Is that like a jewish news is. This particular website is a local Arizona community news site for jewish issues. Chris: Got it. Kayla: And Jewish News. So this article discussed an early version of cell phone in 2015, which was simply a computer outfitted with the ability to read and display patterns of background radiation, which Doctor Schwartz believes spirits can manipulate and alter the patterns to communicate with the living. In this article, a specific pattern was being displayed that Doctor Schwartz called the Sophia pattern. So the name was given to Doctor Schwartz by three different mediums. So when this pattern popped up, three different mediums were like, that's Sophia talking to you.

1:01:59 Chris: Who's Sophia? Kayla: The ghost. The ghost is talking to him. Chris: Is it the golden girl? Kayla: Yes. When the computer displays two specific blue lines, Doctor Schwartz believes it is indicative that Sophia has entered the room and is attempting to communicate. Chris: Why do the ghosts have this weird way of commun. Like, why can't they just like, pop up and be like, hey, what's up? Why. Why is it this, like, encoded? It's like. It's like with Q and honors where it's like, oh, everybody's. It's all in code. The way that everybody communicates is with secret symbols. Kayla: I don't know. You have to ask doctor Schwartz. Chris: Is he. Is he coming on the show? Because I would love doctor Schwartz, if you're out there, we would love to have you on the show talking about your stuff. I know it sounds like we're attacking you.

1:02:48 Kayla: I'm definitely attacking. Chris: We are, but totally come on the show though. Kayla: Quote from the article. Schwartz seeks enough repetition of the pattern to rule out chance, the possibility that it's random. He says he'll enter the room and ask, is anybody here? If Sophia's yes pattern displays. He'll ask if this is you, Sophia, please show me your sign. If he sees the double bar in the next 15 to 20 seconds, he'll ask Sophia to repeat the pattern. If he asks a yes or no question, he requires seeing three yeses in a row before he accepts it as yes. Doctor Schwartz explains the technology like, just because a star no longer exists doesn't mean that we no longer have the light from the star. There is no longer any question about whether this statistically works. However, it is not reliable enough yet.

1:03:30 Kayla: Can we take it from a scientifically statistical phenomenon to a reliable phenomenon that makes it useful in real life? We're working on that. We are close to experiencing a Wright brothers moment with regards to the technology of detecting spirit. The question now is, what will it become and what can it become? And how long will it take for us to reach the point where it is working so effortlessly that all of us take all of this for granted? Is it possible that we may be awakening to the reality of using technology to create sacred partnerships? Chris: He's also betraying a common, but lack of understanding of general relativity with his star comment there.

1:04:12 Kayla: Explain. Chris: It's a little bit hard to explain. Kayla: You're the one who fucking brought it up. Chris: I'm just trying to attack this guy, okay? Don't make me justify my shit. Jesus. They don't have to. Why should I? Kayla: That's true. Chris: It's the common sort of way of understanding this, actually. I should have said special relativity. The common way of understanding how things work is that like, oh, a star can blow up and you wouldn't know it till the light reaches you, which is true. But like, in a very real, like, physics way, if you don't know something has happened yet because its light cone hasn't intersected with yours, it's in a. In a very sort. Because the concept of, like, simultaneity isn't actually absolute across the universe.

1:05:01 Kayla: Right. I. Chris: There's no physical validity in saying that something happening millions of light years away is happening, quote unquote, now, without its light reaching you. Like, it's all like, you have to think of light less as light and more as, like a way of connecting causality across causality and knowledge across different parts of the universe. Kayla: That's why I say that it doesn't work on Star Trek when they're like. Chris: It'S been, nothing works on Star Trek. Nothing. Kayla: And you're like, no, it does. And I'm like, no, it doesn't. Agrees with me. Chris: I thought you were saying other things. I thought you were saying, like, why are they able to use, like, earth time? You can still, like, measure.

1:05:44 Kayla: I know. I'm saying that. Whatever, whatever. Is it possible that we may be awakening to the reality of using technology to create sacred partners? Speaking of sacred partnerships, this is where we hit our rock bottom. Chris: Ooh, good. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Are we at terminal vlog? Like, how badly am I going to be heard? We've been following a long time. Kayla: You're going to get Gwen Stacyd. The most recent update on soul phone, the 2020 update, posted by Mark Pittstick earlier this year, includes an incredible development in the soul phone project. And honestly, it is maybe the biggest scientific breakthrough of our time. Like, of our. Of all of our lifetimes. Like, are you ready for this?

1:06:27 Chris: Cell phones are topic, by the way. Right? Like, it's not Doctor Schwarz. It's not afterlife. Like, it's cell phone is the episode. Right? Kayla: I just was trying to figure out how a way to do a cell phone is the episode. Chris: Okay. Okay. Kayla: Are you ready for this? Chris: No. Kayla: Quote. A team of post material inventors, scientists and other luminaries have assisted the research and development of soul phone. Literal genius ghosts are working with Doctor Schwartz to help make soul phone a reality. Chris: Wait, that didn't mean people who are studying that. Kayla: No, that meant post material dead inventors. That's where I think the Nikola Tesla thing came in from. Cause the website does not explain to what the fuck that Nikola Tesla quote is. And I am pretty sure it's this.

1:07:18 Chris: So part of the development team for this project is ghosts? Kayla: Yes. Actually, we haven't hit rock bottom yet. So in addition. Chris: Wait, I'm still. Kayla: In addition to all the optical physicists and electrical engineers working on cell phone, Doctor Schwartz's team is also collaborating directly with scientists from beyond the grave. Chris: Oh my God. Kayla: In 2010, Rhonda Eckland, MA, an evidential research medium working with Doctor Schwartz on this project, began to connect with a number of quote hypothesized post material collaborators. HPCs. You'll recall that from earlier.

1:08:00 Chris: Okay, okay. But it's not what HPC is. Kayla: At least ten other evidential mediums have. Have independently corroborated the desire of these passed on scientists to help out with the project. Chris: Actually, if I were dad, I would want to help make a soul phone as well. Kayla: Agreed. Chris: Although, actually, hold on. Wait. Why wouldn't I just be like, eh, I forget. Soul phone. I can talk through the mediums. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Cause clearly I can communicate well enough via a medium in order to collaborate on a complex scientific project. Kayla: I don't know. Okay, let me read you this passage from the website describing this event. Quote, this is. Chris: This is. I know I've already said this, but. Kayla: This is very bad. Chris: Definitely a grift. Definitely.

1:08:43 Kayla: A team of HPCs came together to work with Rhonda and Doctor Schwartz. Each deceased luminary brought a unique set of talents, expertise, and an apparent, genuine commitment to help with the building of this technology. Chris: Oh, shit. It's like the dead a team. Kayla: The members of the a team. Oh, shit. Chris: Maybe they'll hire me. Kayla: Include scientists, inventors, businesspersons, laypeople, and entertainers. Some whose names you would recognize. Chris: Ooh. Appeal to that authority. Kayla: However, as doctor Schwartz says, it's not about the team. It's about the technology. It's about the potential to positively transform many people in our world. These HPCs continue to play a critical role in the research to this day.

1:09:25 Chris: I love that they have an acronym for it. It's just so. I'm making chef kiss hands right now. Kayla: Do you want to know who some of these luminaries are? Chris: Definitely. Kayla: Oh, well, sorry. Because it's not about the team. It's about the technology. Whoever these luminaries are that make up the spirit team, they aren't identified on the soul phone website anywhere. In fact. Chris: Hold on. Why wouldn't they just make that up? Like, why would. Kayla: Oh, oh. I will tell you why. In fact, we are gonna have to wait for Rhonda Eckland to release her next books to learn about this. Chris: Okay. Kayla: According to her site quote, details of how the relationships of these individual spirits were made, along with the communications, research, and experiments being conducted with them, will be shared in Rhonda's next books. Keep watching for their release. Maybe I should.

1:10:07 Chris: I actually kind of respect the amount of thought that went into this grift. Like, that's. That's some long term thinking. Kayla: I'm about to blow you out the water. Maybe I should point out here that Rhonda Eckland changed her name to Rhonda Ekland Schwartz in 2006 when she met and married doctor Gary Schwartz, and the two have worked together ever since. Chris: Oh, man. It's like our long term project with this podcast where we're gonna start a cult. Kayla: Yeah. Yeah. Chris: So is he running for president or like, not yet. Okay. I don't. I don't. Just. Just keep reading. I don't have anything. I don't have words.

1:10:54 Kayla: If you think that's controversial, that doctor Schwartz and his medium wife, Rhonda Eklund, are gonna release a book soon telling you about all of the Nikola Tesla's that they worked with. Chris: I don't think it's controversial. I think that it's definitely bunk. Kayla: Well, there's no controversy. I'm gonna keep using the word controversial because I want to talk about the controversy that was mentioned on the soul phone website itself. Remember doctor Schwartz? Chris: Oh, that's right, teach the controversy. Kayla: In 2007. Geraldo Rivera, luminary. Chris: Okay, yeah. Kayla: Called Doctor Schwartz out on his show claiming that doctor Schwartz had, quote, overstepped his position as a university researcher. Chris: Oh, Geraldo. Kayla: By requesting money from a bereaved father to fund research in a mediumship.

1:11:37 Chris: But oh, man, what. What a douchebag. I mean, I guess that's what he's been doing this whole time, but still, it's like, well. Kayla: I'll get into it. Doctor Schwartz has what he considers to be a perfectly reasonable explanation for soliciting a recently bereaved person for millions of dollars to further research into afterlife science. Doctor Schwartz claimed that the wealthy father read the afterlife experiments book, had several sessions with one of the mediums discussed in the book, and was so grateful for the experience, he called Doctor Schwartz and asked how he could help advance the research into mediumship. I told the father that if he was really that wealthy, he might consider creating an endowed named professorship in afterlife science at a major university in honor of his deceased son. I suggested that he could do so in the son's name.

1:12:24 Kayla: Doctor Schwartz suggested he donate $3.5 million to a university of his choosing in order to create the endowment, which is where Geraldo supposedly got, like, his numbers from. But the story doesn't end there. Doctor Schwartz now claims that the wealthy father had a shady history and had been in federal prison in the past. Apparently, he wanted to go into business with Doctor Schwartz and create a paid service connecting thousands of worldwide mediums to clients. And Doctor Schwartz, of course, said no. He could only endorse nonprofits in this arena. But he agreed there was a need to connect grieving parents to the emerging field of afterlife science and connect them to certified mediums. And thus, the Forever Family foundation was born. Bringing it all back to the beginning.

1:13:07 Chris: So this endowment is why he is currently at. Kayla: No. Chris: Oh, no. Okay. Kayla: No. He was like, you should make an endowment. You, the dead father or the deceased. The bereaved father called him and was like, Doctor Schwartz, thank you so much for your incredible work. I want to know how I can help keep, you know, help further this research. And Doctor Schwartz was like, give. Give three and a half million dollars in the form of an endowment to university of your choosing for a position of afterlife sciences. And instead of going like, good idea, Doctor Schwartz, the guy supposedly went like, I got a mustache twirl. Why don't you and I team up, make a business out of this? And doctor Schwartz went, no, I must not. I am high and moral, and instead I will create a 501 c three called the Forever Family foundation, connecting deceased parents to the emerging field of afterlife science.

1:13:58 Chris: So he did it anyway, just without this guy's money. Kayla: Yeah. Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Doctor Schwartz claimed that the wealthy father was furious with him and tried to get even, I guess, by enlisting Geraldo's help. Chris: Okay, so that's why he's on the Geraldo program, is because he had this idea, and Doctor Schwartz stole it and started a business and non profit. Sorry. Started a 501. Kayla: Doctor Schwartz, that'll be. Nonprofits are extremely important, and many of them do incredibly good work. And then also, there's, like, a whole bunch that are just making people rich. Chris: Yeah, nonprofit. All that means is that you don't have to show a profit as an entity. It doesn't mean that the people can't take big old salaries.

1:14:39 Kayla: Doctor Schwartz, which is a beloved go to for conspiracy theorists. So it's like, such a double edged sword. There's, like, so many conspiracy theorists that are like, such and such. 501, it's just a making money thing for that person that I don't like. But then also, sometimes they do it. Doctor Schwartz also notes that he was advised to sue Geraldo for this slander, but he himself decided to take the high road. Chris: Oh, he keeps taking the high road. Good for him. Kayla: So there you have it. The life and times of doctor Gary Schwartz. From biofeedback researcher to mysterious voice experiencer to forever Family foundation, founder and now creator and developer of the soul phone. I just want to.

1:15:20 Chris: Is there a jingle to the soul phone? Kayla: They're like, soul phone, soul phone. Call your dad. Dad. He's really sad. I don't know. Chris: Oh, my God, please, if I die, just make sure you call me on the soul phone. Kayla: Okay. Before we get to our judging, I just want to go back to the beginning of this journey really quick because remember, I told that ghost story to kind of explain how I don't think our experiences are science. Things aren't science just because you say they are. And following motivated reasoning down a rabbit hole can take you to some pretty dubious places.

1:16:05 Chris: And so what you're saying is you want to confirm if it was a ghost by using the soul. Kayla: I want to call the ghost on the soul phone. Chris: You're like, hey, were you at this address in 1987? Kayla: I was. Negative one. Chris: Whatever. I just. I pulled the number out of my good job. Kayla: The ghost I saw wasn't real just because I said it was. Life after death isn't supported by science just because doctor Schwartz says it is. It also scientific explanat like, this is a whole other topic. But I just wanted to end this by saying scientific explanations for supernatural experiences doesn't diminish those experiences. In fact, I think scientific explanation for magical things only makes those magical things even more beautiful. And I wish we could spend more time and energy and give more of our individual reverence to those things than the Gary Schwartze of the world. And I want to read this quote from physician doctor Melvin Morse, who I did not research. I just got this quote from him. He might be also a shuck stirring an asshole, but I just like this quote.

1:17:09 Chris: Content warning maybe asshole didn't research. Kayla: Simply because religious experiences are brain based does not automatically lessen or demean their spiritual significance. Indeed, the findings of neurological substrates to religious experiences can be argued to provide evidence for their objective reality. Chris: Yeah, I mean, we talk about this a lot that, like spirituality and supernaturality. Is that a word? Supernaturalism? Kayla: It is. Now, anything can be anything. Chris: The supernatural. That's true. Are not synonyms. Yeah, you can have spiritual experiences from art and science and things that existed in the physical, real world just as much as you can from talking about ghosts and supernatural experiences as well.

1:17:58 Kayla: And if science was able to explain to me, like, why I saw exactly what I saw, that's just as incredible. That's just as magical as, well, it's a ghost. If science is able to figure out why our brains do that, incredible that a, that people can figure that shit out, and then b, our brains work like that. Like, I have reverence for that. That is spiritual to me. It doesn't have to be supernatural. Chris: Yeah. Studying brains and consciousness is already sort of like a magical thing, like the fact that a physical piece of the universe is able to be awake and conscious enough to wonder what it is yeah. Is a very spiritual thing to contemplate.

1:18:43 Kayla: Yeah. So I don't think we need to. I don't think we need the doctor Schwartz's in our world. I don't think we need them. I don't think they're adding to our spiritual experiences of the world. I think that in many ways, it's a distraction, and I don't like them. Chris: What a butthead. Kayla: I don't like them. Chris: Yeah. And I mean, I would even say, also, like we said this last week or last episode, but it's fine to want to apply science to understanding, to what happens to a human after they die. Kayla: Absolutely. Chris: But do it in a. In an actually scientific manner and commit to it. And don't cherry pick science when you want to prove something and say, not everything is scientific and skept when you don't.

1:19:28 Kayla: Right. Chris: And also soul phone. Kayla: Soul phone. Chris: Soul phone. Kayla: You're gonna have. We're gonna have webinars from. Chris: Listen, man, it's. It's 2020. I'm done with the zoom thing. Kayla: I don't, you know, like, maybe gonna kill cell phone. Everyone's zoom fatigue. Chris: Holy shit. Criteria time. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Dude, where's the paper? Oh, we got it. Yeah. You always do this for, like, ten minutes. Kayla: I learned it from watching you. Chris: I know. I wish that I hadn't done it ever. All right. Kayla: I don't know what the topic is. I think that. I think the topic, obviously, soul. It's not soul phone. It's after, like.

1:20:14 Chris: It's definitely soul phone. We said afterlife sciences was. Was last week. Kayla: We didn't even know. Chris: This is a part two. Yeah, I know it's all together, but it's. I'm sorry. This whole topic has been soul phones. I don't care what you say. All right, let's start with charismatic leader. I like starting at the bottom. Kayla: Very there. Chris: That's there. Kayla: Present af. He's got an HBO documentary. Chris: Is she charismatic? Kayla: He is charismatic enough that he is part of an HBO documentary. He has all these. Chris: His beard's pretty sweet. Kayla: He's got all these fucking mediums on his side. He has all these other dudes on his side. He has a professorship at an accredited university. Like, he is. Chris: He has ghosts working for him.

1:20:56 Kayla: He's got literal. Nikola Tesla's probably working for him right now. Chris: Holy shit. Kayla: He's like. He's got a wife. Who, I will point out is not the wife from his story of hearing the mysterious voice. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Different wife. Kayla: I don't know why that's relevant. But I feel like it is different. Chris: Wife after life. Kayla: Yeah. I don't know. Chris: Okay, so, hi. Ritual. Kayla: I say rituals high because it's all, like. Chris: It's all the weird fake experiments and sitting around with mediums. Kayla: You're doing the ritual of. Chris: The ritual of attaching electrodes to. Kayla: I think you even said that, hey, science in the previous episode was the ritual of science, right?

1:21:38 Chris: Right. It's not. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Definitely. High percentage of life consumed. So, I guess, what about percentage of afterlife the followers would be? What? Kayla: I don't know. Us. The people reading is people that he. Chris: Grips the money from? Kayla: I think so, but that's the thing, is that I could not figure out, like, how many people have donated to soul phone, how many books he's sold. Like, I don't know, but he has sold enough book. Like, he makes a living off of this. Chris: Right? So, yeah, I guess percentage of life consumed is, like, indeterminate, since we don't know that much about, like, the people that engage with his product. Kayla: Right. Chris: I imagine that it's probably a spectrum. Like, there's probably somebody who's like, oh, yeah, I'll throw $10 at that.

1:22:20 Kayla: Cool. Chris: If I could talk to Nikola Tesla or, you know, my choices, which are, like, all horrible men throughout history, so. Kayla: Nikola Tesla. I have no idea. He might have been a nice guy. Chris: Who knows? Kayla: We'll find out with soul phone. Chris: TM, right? Would you like to know which of your favorite historical figures were total douchebags? Well, now you can. Kayla: With soul phone. Yeah. Chris: No. No more jingles. Kayla: Oh, my God. He's really sad. Chris: Oh, my God. This episode. Oh, geez. Indeterminate. Kayla: Destroyed me. Chris: Indeterminate. Percentage of life consumed. Anti factuality. Just through the goddamn roof.

1:23:03 Kayla: All I have to say up into. Chris: Heaven is soul phone. Kayla: I'm sorry. I'm sorry that we're making fun of this so hard. Chris: It's hard not to. It's called soul phone. Kayla: I know. Chris: Like, at least give it, like, a pseudo scientific sounding name, like Star Trek would, you know, like, call it, like. Like he does with the HCTs or what are they called? Kayla: HCPCs? Chris: HPCs. Kayla: Hypothesized post material collaborators. Chris: Right. That. That at least sounds scientific. So antifactuality. You even talked about closed logical system happening. We talked a lot about motivated reasoning. Those are the two things we talk about a lot with that criteria, just in case we need to justify it, which I don't think we do. Is it niche?

1:23:45 Kayla: I don't know how to answer this. Chris: I'm gonna say yes. Like, I. I think it's niche. I think there's definitely a large percentage of society that thinks about, believes interacts with beliefs in the afterlife. I don't know if a large percentage of society thinks that it has to be through a medium, or you can attach electrodes to a medium and have it be proven and have a phone to call them on Skype. Kayla: I wish I knew how much money cell phone has raised dead Skype. Chris: I know. Okay. Did you look for that? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: It's such a. Such a bummer. So I'm gonna say niche for this. Even though afterlife in general, belief in afterlife is not niche, this is.

1:24:31 Kayla: I don't think. Doctor Gary Schwartze. I don't know. I don't know. I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. Chris: And then expected harm, I feel like I'm gonna come down sort of like, percentage of life consumed, because I don't know how. Actually, it's what you were just saying, like, not knowing how much money they've raised. Like, if this is like, bleeding people dry, the way that other cults can, like the amways of the world. Kayla: I think that as much as I really dislike this entire topic, I don't think it's a cult. I think he. Chris: Oh, whoa. What about expected harm? Hold on. Kayla: I was agreeing with you. I don't think that it's. I don't think I can say that it's, like, super high or I can say it's super low. I think it's the spectrum. And I just think overall, I think that this particular gentleman is probably a grifter. I think. I think there's a lot of people that work in this arena, and there's probably a spectrum of true believers to grifters. But I don't know if I can say that Doctor Gary Schwartz and soul phone and afterlife science is a cult. I think if I knew more about the people that consume his products and the people that interact with his products, I could have a better answer, but it's really difficult to find that kind of information. So I hate it. And I want to say it's a cult. I don't know if it is.

1:25:52 Kayla: I think it's a bad. I think it's a bad thing. I think it's a bad thing. Chris: First of all, it's my turn to judge. Okay? So I don't care what you think. Kayla: We all get to judge. Also, this is my podcast. You don't exist. Chris: Oh, that's right. That's right. This is solipsism tonight. With just me to expected harm. I think it's the same thing. It's hard to say because we don't know that much about the followers. I think it's pretty much what you were just saying. The four criteria that were not indeterminate were all pretty heavily cult. However, if this turned out to be something that, like, didn't really affect people that much, and they weren't being harmed and dumping a ton of money and spending a lot of their life, then I think I would say, like, ultra weird. Definitely grifty, but probably not a cult. Like, I don't think you can have a cult if you're not, like, actively harming cultists.

1:26:51 Kayla: Right. Chris: Maybe we could call it, like, a benign cult versus a. Kayla: No, I think it's a destructive thing. Chris: A destructive weird. Oh, is it like a matrix? So there's, like, benign cult, destructive cult, benign weird, destructive weird. Kayla: I don't even know if it's a weird. I think it's a third thing. I think it's a bad. Chris: No, I think it's destructive weird. Kayla: I think it's a destructive bad. I don't even think it's a weird. Chris: I think, Kayla, this isn't cult or weird or bad. Kayla: Well, I'm adding it. Chris: You can add that in your own little universe, but in this universe, where we have to have a destructive weird collaboration of realities. Kayla: Destructive weird. Chris: All right, next time on benign cult or destructive weird. Yeah. Okay, so just. Just tie it up, I guess. It's just weird but destructive.

1:27:40 Kayla: There you go. Doctor Schwartz. You're just weird. Chris: But you're very weird. Is that. That's a consolation? I don't know if you've heard this, but your product is called soul phone. That's. That's weird as fuck, dude. I'm sorry. And, like, even if it. Oh, God. If you were selling, like, I don't know, like, blood chalices or something, that was, like, really just sort of, like, spiritual. Oh, and you have to do some meth, but, like, you're talking about, like, skyping with dead people. Kayla: Yeah. And. Chris: And I don't know, man. Kayla: And Nikola Tesla's helping you do it, right? Chris: Right. And a whole list of luminaries for the low price of 1999. You can figure out who that is in his next book.

1:28:24 Kayla: I want to read the book. Chris: Let's buy it. We can expense it to the show. Kayla: I don't want to give them money. Chris: Mmm. We should steal it. Kayla: I'd steal it if bookstores were still open. Chris: We don't condone stealing. Kayla: I do. Chris: Oh, actually, he's. He's stealing. So actually, in this case, I do condone it. Kayla: He stole that rich dad's idea. Chris: Oh, man. That was, Kayla: I never want to do another topic ever again. Chris: This is the last episode of cult or just weird. Kayla: This is what you get when you make me do two topics in a row. Chris: I didn't. You made you do two topics. I did two topics. So then you had to do two topics. Kayla: Yeah, I know. Chris: So you made yourself.

1:29:05 Kayla: I'm so glad that we can talk about soul phone now. That's all I'm ever going to talk about for the rest of my life. Chris: Soul phone. Jesus. Kayla: All right. Chris: I don't even. Yeah, I don't even have anything, like, funny to say. Just soul phone. Kayla: Soul phone. Thanks for listening. Chris: Yeah, thanks for going on this journey with us. Kayla: Go to yourworldoftext.com culturejustweird for a palate cleanser. Chris: Yeah. Especially if you're from a foreign country, like Iceland. That's so cool. Or actually, we had some tulpas check in here. Kayla: Thanks. Tulpas. Chris: Which is like so rad that, like, we have tulpas still listening to our show. Kayla: What I wouldn't give to be talking about tulpas right now instead of fucking Doctor Schwartz. Well, you tulpas are just like a.

1:29:50 Chris: Pale blue, that one in season one. Sorry, tulpas. Kayla: And actually you've done three episodes on tulpas now. Chris: We had the interview and you had two in episode one where you talked about them. Kayla: Tulpas and the line are definitely some of the most healing episodes. Chris: What about Cicada? Kayla: Cicada is great. I don't know if it's like healing, especially because it's so like. And we don't know where they are. Chris: What about creativity? That was a breath of fresh air. Kayla: That was a stinky poop. And I hate it almost as much as I hate. No, I think I probably hate creativity worse than doctor Schwartz, but. Chris: Oh, yeah, creativity is definitely the worst one we've done. Kayla: I think if it's not even close.

1:30:31 Chris: I'm fine that we did that. I think if I were to run into another group like that, I would. Kayla: Be like, steer clear. Chris: I don't know. Do I need to do this again? Kayla: No, we're good. Okay, well, thanks for listening. Chris: Yeah, thanks for watching. Tune in for two weeks journey with. Kayla: Us to not have to hear about doctor Schwartz ever again. Or maybe we'll call you on the cell phone. Chris: Yeah, well, hopefully not because that means either us or our listeners are dead. Kayla: Yeah, but if you have a cell phone, who the fuck cares? Chris: Yeah, that's a good point. Cool. Well, then I think the next step for us is to figure out how to gain listeners in the afterlife. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So whether you're here on earth or in one of the various afterlife's, like, share and subscribe, go follow us on Twitter, go to our world of tech, rate us on iTunes, or what is it called now? Apple podcasts. Pardon me. And I hope that you guys have a great rest of your week or weekend whenever you're listening to this.

1:31:28 Kayla: I'm Kayla. Chris: And I'm Chris. And this has been cult or just weird or cake.