S2E6 - The Coaches (Team Beachbody MLM)

0:41 Kayla: Just saying, if you want banter that's not related to what's happening to the goings ons. Chris: I don't know. Maybe we should say. Maybe we should. I don't know. Kayla: I know. Chris: I just. I don't want to. Okay, fine. Here's what we'll put in the show is we know what's going on right now, and we are making an active decision to not talk about it because there are many other voices that are and will say things better than we can. And we want this show right now to be able to be a respite from what's going on and not something that will just remind you and be yet one more piece of news in this currently shitty news cycle.

1:25 Kayla: You can check out our social media for more pointed covering of this topic. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're here for it, and we are here for you guys, but we don't want to have, like, a long five minute segment where we talk about it because there's plenty of time to go read the news. And yours truly may have been doing that a lot, so I know how bad it can be, and I'd rather this be like, let's talk about something else for a bit. Kayla: Agreed. Chris: So what do you want to talk about? You said Star Trek. Kayla: You just made me watch a weird Star Trek episode, so. Chris: Okay, that was redundant. They're all weird. Kayla: They're all weird. I don't know why you want me to watch them.

2:06 Chris: It's a good show. Kayla: It is a good show. I'm enjoying it. Chris: It's very. This is next generation, by the way, nerdy as we are. It's just been nice to watch a show that was made in the eighties and the nineties that has a very. Everything gets resolved at the end and everybody's friends and happy and nobody dies. Except for Tasha Yar. Spoiler alert. Kayla: Oh, rip. No. The best. The best thing that. My favorite thing that's happened this week, television wise, was when I was watching a drama show and there was a mention of, like, some of the horrors going on in our world, but, like, six month ago horrors, as opposed to, like, current right now, like, what we're living through horrors. And you commented on it, obviously. And I was like, this is escapism for me. Don't talk about it.

3:00 Chris: I know. And it was like talking about, like, children in cages, and you're like, that's escapism. Kayla: And then. And then it was like, we turned on the news and it was like, yeah, see, that. That. That was escapism. Considering what's going on. So all television is escapism right now, unless it's the news. Chris: Well, okay. Sorry that I. I prefer to watch a show about a giant void in the middle of space that eats the Enterprise and has a weird little baby face with terrible. Kayla: It killed someone. Chris: Graphical effects. It killed a red shirt. Kayla, that's barely a someone. Kayla: You know what? In the year of our lord 2020, we no longer can stand for the cannon fodder. Chris: Anyway, it's been nice to watch Star Trek because it's, like, just total weird bullshit, and it's great.

3:49 Kayla: Except there's, like. Chris: Okay, yeah, except what? Kayla: Like, all good science fiction. It, like, makes commentary on the social topics of the time, and those are difficult to grapple with sometimes. Did you like that? Chris: Yeah, that was great. That was a little ping. Plus one virtue point for Kayla. Kayla: I love a good virtue point. Yeah. So. No, I'm enjoying it. Thank you for showing it to me. It's a good show. Chris: Also, it's great to get high to. Kayla: We should probably introduce the podcast. We haven't done that yet. Chris: Oh, this is Chris, this is Kayla, and this is. Wait, do we do the weird, like, back and forth thing?

4:35 Kayla: No, we just do this as culture. Chris: I don't even think we should do that at the end. Kayla: I don't think we should do it at all. Chris: Cheesy. Kayla: Let's just not even end. Chris: This belongs on something like Star Trek. Kayla: I think it might be too cheesy even for Star Trek. Chris: Wow. Kayla: They never go. And this is Star Trek. There you go. Chris: Yeah, no, they do that. They start doing that in season three. Kayla: Oh, gotcha. The one that. The season that gets good. Chris: Yeah. They look into the camera at the end of the show, and they say, this has been Star Trek. Kayla: I'm Jean Luc. Chris: That's the season they start podcasting from the Enterprise. Kayla: Gotcha. Chris: Yeah. So, anyway, this episode is not about Star Trek. Although, actually, Trekkies are kind of like their own cult. Right? Trekkies or Trekkers. They're supposed to be called Trekkers now. I don't know. At some point. At some point, they, like, changed their name, I think.

5:24 Kayla: Why? Chris: Because they didn't like being called Trekkies. Kayla: Because it sounded like groupies, maybe. I don't know. Chris: Sounds like it needs an episode. Kayla: I feel like it doesn't need an episode. I'm claiming it. I'm claiming it. Chris: Fair enough. Kayla: For one, you're too close to it. You're too close to the topic. Chris: I am not, like, a huge Star Trek fan. Kayla: Too close to the topic. Chris: I haven't even seen all of deep space nine two. Kayla: Star Trek fandom is the, like, birthplace of all fandom. Chris: Oh, it's the Ur fandom. Kayla: It is ur fandom. Chris: Is it? Kayla: I think it. Chris: It might be. Kayla: I think it's technically considered, like, the birthplace of modern fandom. And it was largely.

6:04 Chris: So we're just doing this. Is this just the episode? Kayla: Yeah, were switching to me, it was largely driven by women. Like, mostly women, and mostly because. Chris: Okay, wait. All of it. Save this. Put this in your back pocket. Kayla: This is an episode, and a big part of it was. And it also kicked off. It was also responsible for kicking off the slash fiction. You know what? Slash fiction is fanfic, and it's gay fanfic because it's Kirk Spock or Kirk whoever. I think it was Kirk Spock slash fic. That was like, that's where Fanfic is from. Chris: Got it. Kayla: Again. Women are behind it.

6:45 Chris: Right. That would make sense. Kayla: I'm claiming it. Chris: Okay. Yeah, you got this. I just. It sounds like you already, like, have half the episode written in your head. Kayla: No, I just spent too much time on Tumblr. Chris: Hold on to those tidbits there. Kayla: Hold on to your tidbits. Chris: Speaking of which, you were saying, like, oh, switch to Kayla. Actually, I am doing the topic today. We're doing a weird thing. Even though before I did the topic, before last episode, before we talked to Nikto and Sooksie, I did the Roku's basilisk episode. Kayla: Oh, but we recorded that, like, four months ago. Chris: Yeah, it doesn't matter when we recorded it. I just want to explain to our listeners, who are used to us switching off. Kayla: Right. Chris: So we're just doing a little bit of a shuffle here, and then Kayla's gonna do two in a row, and nobody probably cares about this at all, but I just felt like mentioning it.

7:32 Kayla: There you go. Chris: Okay, there. Super important news out. Anyway, as is so often the case on the show, today's cult, or just weird, has a slight personal connection for us. Kayla: It does. Chris: But before I tell you what it. Kayla: Is, Kayla, and it's not Star Trek. Chris: It's not Star Trek. I mean, despite, like, really wanting to veer hard in that direction. But I'm gonna ask you instead, and our audience, to dig deeper. Did that trigger any memories for you? Kayla: No, unless you're my 10th grade English teacher. Chris: Dig deeper. No. Kayla: Is it supposed to? Is that Shanti?

8:14 Chris: That's Shawn T. Is it? Kayla: Dig deeper. Chris: Dig deeper. Yeah. He always would say on the insanity workout. Kayla: He did. Chris: Dig deeper. Yeah. Kayla: That's a blast from the past, man. Chris: I know. Do you remember the insanity workout? Kayla: Do I remember the insanity workout? Chris: Yeah. Well, I mean, I remember it because all I did was, like, sith at my computer playing games while you did it. Kayla: Yeah, I did the insanity work. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm at. That's why I'm asking if you remember it. I don't remember. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: I mean, I remember the dig deep. That's probably why I remember the quote. Cause I was actually able to hear things, whereas, like, all you could hear was your own pain. Kayla: Fucking floor. It was the most intense physical experience of my life. No, that's a lie. It was one of the most intense physical experiences of my life.

8:55 Chris: Right. It was pretty awesome, though. Like, it's. I mean, it sounded like it was. Kayla: Oh, it was extraordinarily effective. Like, in terms of. Because the best part. Okay, I'm definitely in this cult. The best part about it was that at the beginning, you do a fitness test, and you, like, do a whole bunch of moves, and you, like, see how many of each move you can do in, like, a minute or 30 seconds or something. And then you write that down, and then you do it again in the middle, and then you do it again at the end. And holy shit. The amount of progress that you make is stunning. Like, it is a huge kickstart to your, like, cardiovascular system. Chris: That's awesome. I mean, like, to me, that's the only thing that I feel motivates me about doing workouts is progress. That's, like, to me, it's like. That's the thing, right? It's like, when you can lift more than you did last week or last month, or when you can do better on the fitness test, or. I mean, even, like, when I was, you know, playing basketball a lot more, like, in college, progress is awesome. But did anything feel, like, culty about it?

9:56 Kayla: I mean, yes, but mostly. I don't know how to explain this. Well, mostly because. So there's the videos, right? And you're doing these videos, and there's, like, seven videos or whatever. And all the videos are, you know, the hour long workout, and there's a group of people doing the workouts along with Shawn T. Right? Chris: It's like. It's like. There's just. It's Shawn T. Who's the trip? Do we even say that? We just said Shanti a bunch of times. Kayla: People would know. Is Shanti the charismatic leader here? Chris: Sadly, no. Even though he's, like, the most charismatic leader person we have talked about yet on social media. Kayla: Oh, my God. And it's. Unfortunately, his name is Sean, and his last name is something that starts with t. So he's Sean T. He started, I believe he was a backup dancer. I mean, this is me saying this, but I have not researched it in years. I think he was one of Britney's backup dancers. He's a backup dancer. Maybe he was jam. I don't know. He is a backup dancer, and he has a banging bod, and he does a whole bunch of different, like, workout videos. Workout systems.

10:58 Chris: Yeah. He doesn't have a six pack. He has, like, an 18 pack. Kayla: He's got a 27 pack. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: There's, like, an extra, like, a spare one for a rainy day. And so the workout videos where he's doing the workout and he's doing the workout, and he has all these people around him doing the workout. Some of the people are the same people in each video, and. Chris: Oh, I remember that now. Yeah. Kayla: And then there's one girl. Chris: What was her name again? Kayla: Tanya. Chris: Tanya. That's right. I forgot about Tanya. Kayla: You can clearly tell that, like, she's the chosen one, and other people are jealous. I mean, like, I looked it up later, and they were, like, friends before this. She's also a dancer, that bitch. But it definitely has, it just smacks of, like, this is the cult of Shanti. This is the cult of Shanti. People are like, she's the ma Adnan Sheila of this situation. People are, like, jockeying for position and also, like, the workout is insane.

11:52 Chris: Is it insanity? Kayla: It is insanity. It has. There is almost, like, a cult like thing there breaking down the body every single day. It's every single day for 60 days. Chris: I think it was a long time. Kayla: I think it's every single day for 60 days. Chris: That's no breaks at all. Kayla: No, no. Even when there's a rest day, there's a workout every single day. And at the end of each workout, they kind of, like, try to sell you some other stuff. Like, it kind of has this whole thing going on with it. And then there's, like, a Reddit community where it's, like, people do who do insanity all the time. Like, it's not a Workout that you can do in your normal Life. It's like, the only reason I did it was to manage anxiety. Like, that's what it was because, like, I did.

12:38 Chris: Was it, like an hour of. Kayla: It's like an hour at least every day. Sometimes you have two a days. Chris: Oh, geez. Kayla: Yeah. And it's like, it's truly the most punishing workout I've ever experienced. And the only reason I did it was because I had just quit a really, really stressful job. Chris: It's three really's. Kayla: And were planning our wedding, and so I had a lot of anxiety going and kind of having this to focus on. I think it really helped. Chris: Shoot, maybe you should do that again. Maybe help your dreams. Kayla: Maybe. But I will. I will never do it again. There's people who do this multiple times. I will never do it again. Chris: It's kind of tempting. I kind of want to. Kayla: The joke, like, there's a million memes about it, but the running joke is that somebody who does insanity, their warm up is your workout. And it's true. Like, you do the warm up and you want to die, and then you're like, I have 45 minutes more of actual workout. Now.

13:34 Chris: That's crazy. Kayla: Yeah, I mean, try it if you want to. It's a lot of fun. Chris: Well, insanity isn't the cult. Now. This is, like, twice today that we've been like, let's talk about something. It's not that. And, yeah, sadly, Shanti's not our charismatic. Kayla: Leader, but he could be. Chris: He has the highest charisma score of any human being ever. Kayla: Although I do take a little bit of issue with Shanti, because he is. He might not be anymore, but at the time, he was a fruit denier. Fruit denier. He's one of those people who's like, you can eat fruit, but, like, have a piece in the morning. And that's all. Chris: You should listen to our clean eating episode. Kayla: Yeah. So I don't know if that's still that way, but it was at the time, probably.

14:15 Chris: But it is, like, cult adjacent. So let's follow the trail up one level, from the insanity workout itself to the parent company, which I think you probably remember. Kayla: Okay. Because they would always do it. Then they'd go, beach body. Chris: Beachbody. That's right. According to Beachbody's Wikipedia entry, which, of course, is always our favorite starting point, since their articles have great introductory definitions. Beachbody, LLC is a privately held american company that uses direct response infomercials, e commerce, and individual sales consultants to sell home exercise videos and dietary supplements. Their company was founded in 1998 in Santa Monica, California, and their products include things like p 90 x and insanity.

15:00 Kayla: Remember p 90 x? Chris: I remember p 90 x being advertised on that. That videotape. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Chris: Yeah. There's a few others I remember, too, but we'll get to that. Kayla: I tried p 90 x. It didn't stick. It's not as fun. Tony whatever his name is. Not as scarce. Chris: No. Shanti? Kayla: Nope. Chris: Yeah. Since I spent some time on their website, they have a few more products. I said we would get to that, but we're getting to that right now. Just to list a few morning meltdown 100. Something called. I don't really know how to pronounce this, but it's like the letter l two, capital I's, like, maybe like a roman two or something, and then an f and a t. So it's like lift, but, like lift. It's like lift. And then the number four. So it's like lift four.

15:44 Kayla: Lift four. Chris: Lift four. Kayla: L two four. Chris: Oh, maybe it's l two. L two li. I don't know. Anyway, and then do you remember hip hop abs? Kayla: The best commercials in the world are for hip hop abs, because they keep putting these women in these ugliest outfits to demonstrate how good their abs are now. But also, I wanted to do hip hop abs. I just was not gonna drop money on it. Chris: And then there was my personal favorite, country heat, which has the ad for that one. The little tile on their website has, like, a sexy lady wearing a plaid crop top and jeans. Very country. You know, this is just a total country girl, you know, just dressed in the costume. Oh, wait, actually, sorry. My personal favorite was Brazil butt lift.

16:29 Kayla: Oh, that's them. It's Brazil butt lift. Not brazilian. Chris: Brazil butt lift, because it has a funny word in the name Lyft. Kayla: Oh, my God. Get out. Do you know what the main motion in hip hop abs is? Do you want to show you? Chris: Is it sexual? Kayla: No. Chris: It's like, oh, we're doing a podcast. And you're like. Cause you're like, Kayla's convulsing in the studio right now. Kayla: But that's like, dance like this. You're just basically doing crunches with standing up. And so all the dancing is like this. Chris: That's possibly worse than the Elaine dance. Oh, my God. Please stop. Please stop.

17:09 Kayla: I mean, I'm doing it poorly. Chris: I'm embarrassed. Well, you're also seated. Alanda Carter: Yeah. Kayla: Shanti obviously did a much better job, and that was. Chris: Wait, did he do hip hop abs, or was it somebody else? Kayla: I'm pretty sure Shanti was hip hop abs. Chris: Okay. Because they have, like, a whole. Kayla: I think he started with hip hop abs, maybe. Chris: No shit. Kayla: I could be wrong. Chris: Anyway, yeah, beachbody. They're a fitness company, allegedly. Kayla: Oh, that's how they said it at the end of the video. Beach body. Chris: Beach body. Kayla: Yeah. Do you remember that now? Chris: Vaguely. The only thing I remember, really, is hip hop abs. Shawn T. And then you dredged up that memory of tanya. Kayla: Tanya was very hot. Chris: Everybody on that video was pretty hot. But I guess tanya did. I mean, I don't know if she was hotter than shanti, but she was.

17:51 Kayla: No one's hotter than shanti. Chris: Maybe nobody in the entire world. Yeah. Anyway, Kayla, since you are a savvy individual who knows things, and let's face it, even if you didn't know this already, you might be able to predict where we're headed, because we're talking about a business on the show today. Kayla: So either we're talking about how capitalism is a cult, or you're about. Chris: Not yet. Kayla: You're about to tell me something very sad and bad about my beloved. Chris: I've got three letters for you, and they rhyme with bem. Bell bem. Kayla: I'm trying to figure out something else it could be. Chris: It's not schlem flell flim. Kayla: Yes. Is it that? Chris: It's that. Oh, no. Kayla: Is shawn t an MLM leader?

18:32 Chris: We here on culture, just weird. Are finally about to talk about another multi level marketing company or direct sales, or, as some critics might say, pyramid scheme. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Did you know that beachbody was an MLM company? Kayla: I did not know Beachbody was an MLM company. I will say, however, that I think that I could sense some level of bullshit because I never. Something didn't quite smell right because I was very unwilling to ever give them money. Like, we borrowed a friend's insanity. It's like, I'm not gonna spend money on this. I'll do it if I have it. So we, like, borrowed insanity, and we borrowed p 90 x from a friend. And there. Because there was also, like, you could tell that they were trying to sell something because, you know, Shanti would talk about the shakes and the water bottles and the meal plan.

19:24 Chris: Did he say what the name of the shake was? Does it have, like, a name? Kayla: I don't remember. Beachbody. Chris: We'll get to that. Kayla: So I feel like I could tell that there was something, not something weird about it, especially because, like, how many different a little sales they had. Yeah, yeah. Chris: The reason you may not have known that it's an MLM company is because it's not. At least part of it isn't. You did the insanity program just by borrowing a DVD for it. People just buy the DVD's. But, you know, you never went through any sort of, like, sales associate or anything? Kayla: No. Chris: And neither did the person that lent us the CD, did he? From my research, a lot of people seem to encounter beachbody products without actually ever realizing that there's an MLM side to it. And to be fair, a good chunk of their business today is just the workout programs. They're pretty big into direct streaming, for example. But another good chunk of their business falls under a separate division with a slightly altered name, and that's Team Beachbody.

20:25 Kayla: Oh, I've heard that before. Chris: Team Beachbody is the arm of their business that uses the MLM business model. Kayla: It's so weird because, like, they have. Chris: Two websites and everything. Kayla: That's so weird. Like, you. The only reason people know Beachbody is like, beachbody is ubiquitous, and it's from like, late night infomercials, you know what I mean? Chris: In some circles, though, it's very ubiquitous from like, the same way that Doterra or, you know, young living or whatever it is. Like, people see, people get inundated with it from friends on social media the same way they do with other mlms. It's just we don't happen to have a lot of friends that do that kind of stuff. Kayla: Right. Chris: But yeah, it is weird. You're right. And it seems like a lot of people do have that as their first exposure to it and then don't realize that there's this whole other thing. In any case, that's the team beachbody is the arm of their business that uses the MLM business model, and it should be a familiar business model to veteran listeners of our show. But here's a quick refresher. In an MLM, you are the, quote, independent business owner, and you're pretty conflated with being, like, a customer. It's not really clear where one ends and the other begins. You sign up, essentially, to be a salesman for this company's products that you like, maybe into yourself, and that may be how you got into it.

21:43 Chris: But a lot of your sales commission and bonus comes not just from selling the product itself, but from recruiting others to sell and also recruiting others to themselves, recruit, etcetera, at infinitum. So you recruit, and then they recruit, and that's called your downline, a scam. That's good. And if everyone in that recruiting chain recruits at least two people, although most mlms heavily incentivize much more than that, this is where that pyramidal shape comes from. The chain of folks that recruited you are called your upline. So that's like, whoever said, like, hey, Kayla, you should sell team beachbody. It's a great opportunity. That's your upline. And the chain of folks that you recruit are called your downline. So if you recruit someone and then they recruit somebody else, that's your downline.

22:30 Kayla: Who did I recruit? Chris: Who did you recruit? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Me. I don't know. Nobody. I didn't. You didn't. You weren't selling their product. You never signed up for it. Kayla: I mean, I definitely joined the insanity Reddit and, like, sang its praises. Chris: Okay, well, then you were, like, adjacent to the cult. And actually, let's come back to that in a second, because that's apparently, you are not alone. Kayla: Aw, that's good, I guess. Chris: Typically, an IBO, which is slang in the industry for independent business owner, are given some clever on brand title by their MLM companies. If you remember, in the case of Mary Kay, it was a beauty consultant. In the case of Team beachbody, you are a coach. And before you ask, nope, you do not need any sort of, like, special standardized training or certification yourself to become a coach and advise other human beings on what is essentially a healthcare value proposition.

23:23 Kayla: That sounds good. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: That sounds like a good system. Chris: It's wonderful. But they call you a coach anyway because even though you are essentially a salesperson, they call you a coach. Kayla: No conflict of interest there. Chris: Yeah. You don't need to be trained. You just need to be able to sell beachbody's fitness packages. And I know your exposure to Beachbody with Shawn tee's insanity program, you had a really good experience with it, and I think it's important to note that. But, of course, the fitness packages that team beachbody coaches sell include much more than just a dvd. In fact, the biggest part of their business, according to Forbes, their, quote, flagship product is something called shakeology.

24:06 Kayla: Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, I remember that. Yeah, yeah. The shakeology shakes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Yes. Chris: So that. So their MLM sales stuff was, like, bleached. So I guess, actually, what it is Shanti tried to sell you product that the team beachbody side of the business also tries to sell. Kayla: Is shawn t an IBO? Does shawn t have an upline and a downline? Chris: I don't know. Kayla: Is insanity. The ob Garbo tapes of our universe. That was a. That was a. I don't remember the name of the show. That was a. Chris: Becoming a God in central Florida. Kayla: I'm becoming a God in central Florida reference. Chris: It could be. I don't think he is an ibo.

24:46 Kayla: But I'm not sure please don't destroy my life. That's what you're doing right now. Chris: I don't know. I don't know. By the way, I wanted to take a tangent here. This is totally unintentional that we sort of have this fitness or wellness theme going this season. It did not mean for us to do that. Oh, yeah, did not mean that. My intent wasn't to follow up your intermittent fasting episode with an episode about a fitness MLM. It just sort of happened. I actually intended to do an episode about a different MLM, herbalife. Kayla: Oh. Chris: But I switched to team beachbody for reasons that will become apparent here shortly. We'll get to that. That being said, of course, herbalife also makes a tidy penny getting their ibos to sell fitness shakes. So I guess, regardless, it would have been about fitness anyway. I don't know. All this stuff really tends to run together.

25:34 Kayla: But wear shakes. You guys, like, literally, shakes can be a red flag. Chris: Yeah, shakes. That's true. Yeah. Or at least a yellow flag. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Depends on the shake. It's a mango shake. It's a yellow flag. Kayla: Ew. Chris: If it's like a strawberry shake. Kayla: Mango shake. Chris: Well, you're talking about maybe a smoothie. Yeah, I guess that's different. No, you could totally have a mango flavored shake. Couldn't. Kayla: I don't want it, though. I love a mango, and I don't want a mango flavored shake. I'm gonna throw up. Chris: Speaking of products, do you want to see what their product lineup looks like? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And by product lineup, I mean both. Like, how the company makes money on recruiting distributors and also what the distributors themselves are selling.

26:15 Kayla: Yeah, I want to see the shakes because I love. I love a shake. That's why shakes are a red flag. If something has a shake, I'm like, ooh, too tasty. Yeah, this is boring. I thought it was gonna be pretty pictures of shakes. Chris: No, no. Sorry. This is just a list of what they say. I just wanted to show you. We'll link this in the show notes and on our Instagram and everything. Kayla: I thought you were gonna show me, like, a cool, like a periodic table of their shake products. Chris: Yeah, no, unfortunately not. So they have you buy a starter kit, which, as of the time of this thing that I'm reading here was dollar 40. It may have changed by now. Has a coach welcome book. It has a 30 day access to your coach online office. Not sure what that means exactly. Personalized coach website support tools. Now, as you can see, they have a monthly coach fee, so that's access to your online office as a.

27:06 Kayla: Wait, so this isn't what people pay you? You pay $16. Chris: That's what the independent business owner has to pay $16 a month for the opportunity to sell their products. And then there's, like, some weekly club fees, and this is all the stuff they want you to sell. Challenge packs fitness program Shakeology boosts three day Refresh Beachbody performance Ultimate Reset Team Beachbody Club trainer men's apparel Dermas. I guess I don't have to read all this stuff, but you can see there's a parallel here. There's supplements on here, gear, coach products, and tools. Kayla: Isn't that what that. All of that is? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Why is that a separate. Chris: Because you're selling them to people, like, underneath. So if you recruit a coach, you can sell them coach training tools, even though yourself are also a coach. That's the weirdness of mlms, is that, like, the person under you is selling the same stuff that you are, but you're also.

27:59 Kayla: They're code. Chris: They're sort of like, reporting to you, but not really. It's interesting. Kayla: You know what? I could go for a shakeology shake right now. I'm not gonna lie. Chris: I know I kind of want to get a shake after this, but you can see some of the other stats down here. I won't go into this too much because I just wanted to show you the products. Kayla: Wait, go back, please. Let me read this sentence. Chris: Hold on. Well, let me contextualize it first below the product list on this article that we will definitely link you guys. KaYla found the income disclosure stuff that this guy is reporting on. Kayla: Team beachbody is a great way to make less than part time minimum wage. Chris: I mean, the stats here say 44% of beachbody coaches do not even receive a bonus or commission. Kayla: That seems low to me. Chris: 69% make $500 on average per year, and 91% of coaches make $3,400 or less on average per year. And again, this article is a couple years out of date, but I don't think it's changed that much.

28:52 Kayla: No, it's an MLM, so we know they don't make money. Chris: Right. Back to coaches. So, team beachbody mlmers are called coaches. And according to their own executives, the way beachbody decided to get into the multi level marketing gig is that they discovered their customers were actually some of their best advocates. So you remember when you were just talking about how you got all gung ho and obsessed and went on the Reddit and talked about insanity and how great it was. Kayla: Oh, no. Chris: So they leaned into that. Don't worry, they already leaned into that before you were doing it. Kayla: Okay, here's a quote. You're saying, it's not my fault. Chris: It's not your fault. You were just a participant. Here's a quote from a cosmopolitan article that illustrates this. Back in the pre Facebook early aughts, Deichler, who is the CEO and president of Beachbody, created a virtual gym at the beachbody website called wow Workout with you, where customers doing Beachbody DVD's could befriend each other.

29:46 Kayla: Oh, that's really sweet. Chris: It is. On message boards, one person would say, I started p 90 x and I'm sore. It's only day three. I don't think I can do it anymore. And somebody else would come on and say, you got to push through, man. By the time you get to day 17, you're going to start to feel better. Dichler again. The CEO soon realized that the customers were the best brand ambassadors that we could ask for, end quote. Kayla: Love to take advantage and exploit your customers. Chris: But it's pretty savvy too, right? Like, you know, if you have a good product, then, yeah, your customers are pretty good advocates for. Kayla: Right. Chris: The problem comes when you push it further than that and try to turn them into something that maybe they shouldn't be. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: By the way, you want to know the title of that Cosmo article?

30:29 Kayla: Mlms are a cult. The cult of team beachbody. Chris: This cultish workout is all over your social media feeds. But is it legit? Kayla: What? Which workout was it specifically talking about? Do you know? Was it p 90 x? I bet it was p 90 x there. Chris: It was a few different ones there. Oh, for that one. Yeah, it was p 90 x. Yeah, p 90 x. It was p 90 x. I feel. Kayla: Like p 90 x was even more culty than insanity. Like, remember how, like, Paul Ryan made it? Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: People were like, Paul Ryan is p 90. Chris: I read about that, how he was like, a bunch of people picked it up after he said that. Yeah. But, yeah, I like that the cosmopolitan used the c word there, so that's cool. Kayla: They said cunt, right? Chris: That's the word I meant, yeah. Good.

31:10 Kayla: Sorry. Chris: Thanks, kayla. That's the k word. But I think also this quote is best appreciated next to another one from that Forbes article I was mentioning earlier, which was entitled, Inside Beachbody's billion dollar fat Burning Empire. Kayla: Billion with a b. Chris: That's billion with a b. That's right. Here is the quote. As co founder and CEO, of Beachbody, Carl Dieckler is at the top of a modern day, multi level marketing machine with more than 340,000 independent coaches, by the way, that's in quotes, who sell workout videos, shakes, and supplements to weight loss hopefuls via social media. The playbook goes something like, lose weight with Beachbody by doing the at home workouts and drinking the shakes. Share it on social media. Use your story to sell products and recruit new customers and coaches.

31:58 Kayla: Repeat, end quote, 340,000. Yeah, that's an. It's insane. Chris: It's. But again, it's. That's not the company, though, right? I know, but the coaches, that's the whole thing. Kayla: That's what I'm saying. Chris: Remember that the numbers were similar with Mary Kay, I think was even more insane. Yeah, that's the thing. Like, you could never, if you think about, like, a normal company supporting that many salesmen for their product. Kayla: Can't. Chris: There's no way. No, it's impossible. Kayla: Oh, my God. Chris: Anyway, so I really feel like, taken together, that these two excerpts really paint a good picture in my mind of how team beachbody does business. And, man, is it. It's just right in line with how other MLM companies function, too. You take a person, someone who's motivated, loves your product, and rather than just make them a customer or customer advocate or whatever, you make them a salesman. You dangle that carrot of the american dream in front of them. Be your own boss, make your own hours, blah. You've heard all this before, and voila. This person is now part of your cult. Sorry, scheme. Sorry, downline. Pretty soon, you, the company, are taking advantage of all the social capital this newly recruited team beachbody coach has built up over the years, squeezing that valuable social network dry. Discard the human husk and move on.

33:21 Kayla: That is very. Chris: MLM is fucked. But again, I have to highlight here, the name coach is extremely misleading. The word coach carries a lot of contextual weight. That doesn't apply at all in this case. I mean, it does in some cases. Like, I don't want to, like, speak for anybody that's an actual coach. That is also being a beachbody coach. But it doesn't necessarily apply in this case. You don't have to have any experience or education in athletics or physical training to become a team beachbody coach. You just need to buy their starter kit and sign on the dotted line. In this respect, it feels like maybe more disingenuous to me than many or most MLM consultant titles. For example, like going back to Mary Kay's beauty consultant title.

34:04 Chris: Like, at least that's not implying something that it isn't like they're not being called certified esthetician or something. They're just saying, I'm gonna help you look beautiful. At least they're doing that. Whereas this is. I don't know, the word coach just carries a lot of contextual weight with it. Kayla: The nutritionist thing where it's like, nutritionist sounds like there's training involved. There's certification, there's education, there's weight behind it, when really there's no weight behind it in this context. Chris: And if I hire a coach, if I have somebody that's coaching me, my expectation is that they have some qualifications to be a coach. Kayla: You're not going after a rando to coach you. Chris: Yeah. In any case, Team Beach Buddy has the exact same swirling wake of poop around it that most mlms do. Same sort of like complaints, criticisms, a whole ecosystem of discouraged ex ibos. They have the same issue with only a tiny fraction of their sales force actually able to make a profit, which we talked about just a second ago when were looking at that blog post. They also have customer complaints filed with the Better Business Bureau, although I wasn't able to determine if they, like, had more complaints than your average business of that size or not.

35:13 Kayla: Right. Chris: Just that they do. Oh, and the other hilarious thing that they have going on that a lot of mlms do is the obtuse, labyrinthine, insane compensation structure. Kayla: Oh, God. Chris: You want to take a look at it real quick? Kayla: You're at yellow triangle level. Chris: Let's take a look at it. Kayla: No, please. I'm already stressed out. Chris: Highlights. Kayla: I'm already stressed out. Also. Are you going to talk about their logo at all? Chris: Definitely, yeah. Their logo is a little. Kayla: Well, I mean, it's a bdez. Chris: Yeah. And it's. But it. Oh, I never noticed that. It was a bee and a wave. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Oh, that's clever. I like it. I like their logo. Kayla: It's also hot tits. Chris: I don't think that those are hot.

35:54 Kayla: No, it's. If you're looking at it, like, from the. Chris: So, like, kind of at angle. Kayla: And they're, like, resting, like in water. Chris: Are we keeping this part. Oh, Jesus Christ. Kayla: I mean, like, water gently up over the tits. Sorry. Chris: Look, logos tend to evoke a sense of cultiness that'll probably come up, like in our. Is capitalism a cult episode that we're never gonna do. But I don't think they're any more culty than any other company's logo. In any case, I hate this. Kayla: I hate looking at this. Chris: We will definitely link you guys. This compensation plan highlights. And this is from them, right? Obviously, it has their logo. It's from them. But I don't even, like. I can't even really explain it. But diamond coach, there's this whole thing. So there's like. I'm just trying to explain what we have here.

36:42 Kayla: Right leg, left leg. Chris: There are dots and they are connected. It's clearly. It's even set up in a pyramid shape. So there's u. Then there's your left leg and your right leg, which I think refers to, like, different halves of your downline. Kayla: Well, strong leg, weak leg. Chris: But don't forget that one cycle equals 300 balanced volume points. And that means 200 strong leg, 100 weak leg. Does that make sense? Do you get that? Team cycle bonus earn from the sales of your entire downline organization, parentheses, binary plan cycle. Whenever you have 300 balance volume points, earn between 14 and 18 bonus points each cycle, and up to 12,000 bonus points each week, depending on rank.

37:32 Kayla: Here's my question. Whose job is it to do this part? Because it's like, this is literally like time cube. This is the ravings of an unwell person. Chris: We'll get to that. Kayla: Is Team beach body just a figment of my psychotic break? Chris: No, but I almost guarantee that they didn't come up with that. Kayla: Oh, that's ominous. Chris: Yeah, I did some research, y'all, and they actually also have, like, a whole training program just dedicated to explaining their compensation plan to red flag. Kayla: That's the biggest red flag I've ever heard.

38:14 Chris: But, yeah, we will definitely post this stuff on our socials after the show. That's cult or just weird on Twitter and then on instagram, it's cult or just weirdos. We'll definitely post the comp plan. Anyway. That's your quick primer on Team beachbody. It is the MLM arm of the beachbody empire. Do you have any questions? Kayla: Yes, all of them. Chris: Okay, hold then, because I still have questions, too. And you know, how we do here on cult are just weird. When we have questions, we like to go seek out experts and expand our knowledge. Kayla: Oh, shit. Chris: So I did just that. I got in touch with one of the Facebook groups that we got involved with a little bit after the Mary Kay episode. It's called the anti MLM Coalition, and they're a great resource generally, but in this case, their moderators were actually able to hook us up with a youtuber whose channel is all about mlms. And she is an ex team beachbody coach, so. Remember before when I said I had planned on doing Herbalife for this episode, but then I changed course? Yeah, that's why.

39:12 Kayla: Okay, well, that's, like, the most credentialed person ever. I'm so excited. Chris: So, her name is Alonda Carter, and her YouTube channel is called the recovering Hunbotan. You excited? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Let's do this. Thank you so much for joining us. Alanda Carter: My pleasure. Kayla: How are you guys doing? Alanda Carter: You, too? Chris: Hanging in there, staying safe and sane and in our houses and as sane as possible anyway, right? Alanda Carter: Social distancing, all that stuff. Chris: Yeah. How about yourself? Alanda Carter: Yeah, pretty much the same thing. I think the excitement of our day is walking the dogs and doing the bear hunt. I always see the same bears, but I pretend like I see them for the first time each and every time I go out.

40:05 Chris: Yeah, that's cool that you guys do the bear hunt. That's awesome. Kayla: Our neighborhood tried to do that, and I don't think it really took, but I love that it's actually happening elsewhere. Alanda Carter: There's a couple of houses that have, like, a bazillion bears, and then there's. The rest of them is, like, not a damn bear to be seen. Chris: Well, it makes the hunt easy, I guess, right? If they're all in one place. Okay, so if you're ready to go ahead and get started, if you can tell us who you are and a little bit about yourself and your background to just kind of set the table for our audience. Alanda Carter: Okay. My name is Alonda Carter. I'm also known as the recovering hunbot on YouTube. And my background, I am a former beachbody hun botanical, hence the name recovering Hunbut. I live in Houston, married, have two dogs, two stepsons, and, you know, I never really thought about joining an MLM. I don't think most people do. But I had gone through breast cancer, and then I was subsequently laid off the day that I went back, and were also moving. And at that point, I was like, you know what? I really don't like this corporate thing. I don't like how I was treated, because my manager treated me horribly when I was going through all of that. And so I was at a very vulnerable state, and I met someone who was my neighbor, lived on the same floor as me. We. And she.

41:25 Alanda Carter: She seemed very successful. So I thought, you know what? If she can do what I can, and I was wrong. Kayla: Feels like it usually works out that way. Alanda Carter: What I know, like, looking back, it's like, I don't think she was ever truthful. And that's the whole thing is I thought she was. You know, I honestly, I thought she was. And so I just trusted. I never looked up anything. I didn't do anything. I just trusted. And I. One that does a ton of research, right. I have two different advanced degrees, so it's like I know how to find stuff and look it up. But this, no, I didn't. There you go. So ask away.

42:09 Kayla: So insidious. It's so insidious. Speaking of your YouTube channel name, you mentioned it, recovering hunbot. Something that we haven't really talked about on the show yet is how there's this whole, like, shared vocabulary in the anti MLM movement, so our listeners might not know what a hun or a hunbot is. Would you mind sharing the significance of your YouTube? Alanda Carter: I will be happy to. Okay. Yeah. I didn't know what it was either. Typically when you join an MLM, because you're going to be showing to your family and friends and you're going to be trying to make friends on social media, and your listeners may have received a message that says, hey, girl, hey, hon. Something like that. So there's the Hun. And because you're copying and pasting everything, there's the robotic nature. So hun, bot. So you are just. That's where that comes from.

43:03 Chris: So I had heard the Hun part. I hadn't heard the bot part. I hadn't heard about that. That makes sense. You know, actually, the first time I saw that word, I was like, are they. Because it's all over. Like the anti MLM Facebook group and a few other Facebook groups I belong to and Reddit. Kayla: And that's where I've seen it. Chris: Yeah, yeah. On the Reddit and the Subreddit. And at first when I saw it, I thought it was like Attila the Hun. Until I read into it, I was like, man, that's harsh, but fair. Alanda Carter: Maybe. Chris: So, first question about our Topic du Jour about beachbody. Why is there a beachbody and also a Team beachbody? What is the difference there? Alanda Carter: The company started out as Beachbody. And if you go back in the day and maybe you guys saw some of the Infomercials, I think they still run them for, like, Insanity Pio, just, you know, different programs that they have. And so people were getting the cds and all of that, and they had Message boards. And so people were going There and supporting each other and helping each other. That is not MLM. And then they created Team beachbody. Because they wanted to help people, help other people. Because shouldn't these people be making money since they're already helping people? I mean, that's the spiel that they give you. What they don't tell you, and that I will tell you, is that Beachbody is a client of a company called the Sheffield Group. The Sheffield group will teach you how to create an MLM.

44:32 Chris: What? Oh, I need to add some interview questions here. Hang on. Kayla: It's terrifying. Chris: Tell me a little bit more about that. Alanda Carter: I did a whole video on that one, too. Yeah, you can go to a conference and learn how to do it. And one of the things that they teach you is how to recruit people who know how to recruit people so that you can build your business quickly. Chris: Oh, my gosh. I'm so glad that we talked to you because I had not run across the Sheffield group thing in my research yet. That is okay. Kayla: Like, talk about insidious. Chris: It's very interesting. Alanda Carter: It works. I don't remember all the different companies, but, you know, beachbody is. There's a lot of. Now, not every MLM is one of their clients, but a lot are. And so hence, you know, they have, like, basically done for you MLM. Just, you know, here's the different modules you can purchase, but a boom, bada bing. And you can also attend our conference where we're going to teach you about all kinds of stuff. Sound familiar? You know?

45:35 Chris: I know, right? It's like. It's, like, meta. That's so weird. Oh, my God. Alanda Carter: Wow. So this is how beachbody and team beachbody work because there also used to beachbody live, which just shut down in March. Beachbody live was when you got certified to teach some of the beachbody programs, like Pio insanity. I was certified in country heat and in size. But, you know, I have theories as to why that doesn't exist anymore, but that. I will digress from this question. So there was that branch. Now, what happens is, because when you're a coach, you join through team Beachbody and you have a coach. That's just what you're called. That's just their word for your distributor. And people get their panties in a twist over the word coach. They get really twisted about that because they think of, you know, personal trainers and all of this. It's just like with Lularoe. It's retailer with unique. It's presenter. It's nothing.

46:32 Alanda Carter: It's, you know, it's a fancy word. So anyway, what happens is that as you, I'm using my air quotes move up. In the team beachbody ranking system, you can get leads. Well, where do you get those leads from? Well, there's people that go to Beachbody.com and buy products. And when they do that, they're assigned a coach from Team Beachbody. Only if you're at a certain rank, and then that coach can contact them. They don't get a commission off of their initial sale, but if they buy anything else after that, they will get a commission. So the two are kind of like married, but Beachbody itself is not MLM. Team Beachbody is. And then there's also beachbody on demand, which is a streaming service, but they have another one called open fit, which is not MLM that competes against beachbody on demand.

47:27 Chris: It's like a maze. Kayla: Yeah. This is like. It is convoluted and complex. Our next question was kind of like, how did you first get into beachbody? And you kind of touched on that. So do you mind expanding a little bit more on that? Like, what was it like to be recruited to coach? Alanda Carter: Sure. Okay. Chris: I. Alanda Carter: You know what's so funny is she never really was, like, hard on recruiting. Like, I never felt like I was being recruited now to also set the stage. My husband is a Somalia, so we always, you know, have some kind of nice wine at home. And since she lived on the same floor as me, she'd come over, so we would just, like, you know, chit chat, and it was all about drinking the wine, and we would just talk about stuff. And I think. And she would, like, go with me to take the dogs out, and we take them to the little dog park. And then one day, just randomly, because I remembered, she said she was a beachbody coach.

48:19 Alanda Carter: I hit up Google, and then I had questions about products, and I asked her about it, and he just gave me some information, so I just ordered something. And then I kept thinking, you know, she says she's making six figures at this. Oh, and she's, you know, she's always in yoga pants and stuff and working from home. And because of what my husband does, I want to have freedom to be able to go anywhere at any time. Like when he goes to a vineyard, I don't want to have to sit at home. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: So this sounds good. So I was just like, okay, I, you know, I'll just join up underneath you. And that's how I got involved, literally. No, she didn't do anything other than, you know, she would answer questions that I would ask on occasion. What it was like. What it was like I was then thrown into some groups and she didn't do anything with me. It was basically, you're on your own.

49:15 Kayla: Is that typical or was that just this, just the way that she operated? Alanda Carter: It depends. It depends on who you with. But I will say this, one of the things I think this goes across all mlms, is that if it appears as if you're successful, meaning you're able to rank up quickly, you know, you, like, you reach that first level, then, you know, they're love bombing you and thinking, oh, everything's, you know, fabulous. And so you get, you know, further indoctrinated into all of this and then they will help you. But if you're not getting any traction, you know, you're upline, they're not going to do anything because she ended up leaving for direct sellers, which was a wine MLM. And you can imagine how many people tried to recruit me for that.

50:02 Kayla: Sure. Chris: Right. Kayla: Sure. Alanda Carter: And then I moved up underneath who was her coach, and her coach was basically the person at the tippy tippy top of everything, who was nice to me, had a call with me. If I would, if I would reach out to her, you know, she would answer something. But the thing is, I had been in it for so long on my own, meaning I'm going all over the Internet trying to find things, I'm buying different things, trying to crack the MLM nut, right? And not having success and wondering, what am I doing wrong? So that, what, because I'm just the kind of person, like, I'm going to take the ball and run with it. I'm going to figure this out. And so by the time moved up underneath this person who is, you know, successful and has a massive team, I knew the basics.

50:53 Alanda Carter: The basics hadn't changed and I'm going, but I'm doing all of these things. So I did something like, I joined, well, initially I joined ubly. Nobody should ever do that because that was like $4,000 down the drain, put on the credit card. Yeah, that's just one thing. I joined social team builders and at the time they were targeting just beachbody coaches. So I thought, oh, well, they'll be able to teach me how to do this. And so that's why I created a Facebook page and then paid for ads to get likes and then I was to market to those people. But you have to realize, and I didn't at this time, you're competing against all these other people depending on how you do your targeting of the ads. But if you don't have a big budget on ads.

51:37 Alanda Carter: You're just one in a million people trying to do that because it really depends on some of that stuff, too. So did I. Some things, yes. Did it work? Absolutely not. Because the stack is set up against you to begin with, but you think you're moving forward because you're taking action, because you're thinking you're learning systems that are actually going to work and then they don't. Chris: Right. It's really interesting. I don't have a question about this, but you just sort of prompted one from me here, is that it sounds like there's this whole little, like, or maybe big ecosystem around helping MLM distributors buy their trade. Like, I forget what that you said. Social, what was it called? Social network. Social net.

52:19 Alanda Carter: Social team. Social team builders. Chris: Got it. So can you tell me about that just a little bit? Alanda Carter: I can tell you about what that ecosystem is like, because what happens is when some people who are, like, successful or they had somewhat of success, they will start doing their own coaching thing. John and Nadia Melton, I was in their group for a while, like, following their system and all of this. Ray Higdon is another one, Fraser Brooks isn't. There's a ton of them, but there's all these people that have systems that are going to lead you to reach success. But the thing is, those systems really are to put money in their pocket. And the problem that I really have, because my background, I hadn't told you this, one of my degrees is instructional design. So that means design and develop training.

53:05 Alanda Carter: And so when I would take their courses, I know how to put together a well constructed course because of my background. And I'm like, I'm just seeing holes all over the place. So they teach you something that's very surface, and that's basically it. So it's a, that's a little bit about, like, there's a bunch of people. I mean, I cannot tell you all the different things, probably because I don't remember them all, but I tried to join and, you know, I did join, not just try to join, I joined and kept thinking, if I just learned the right things from the right person. Kayla: Right, this is all gonna work, right. Alanda Carter: Because they tell you that I spent thousands of dollars, right.

53:46 Chris: And they tell you that if you don't, if you're not successful, then it's your own fault. So therefore, I just need to find the right information. Yeah, that's really interesting. Side note, do you have, you happen to have watched becoming a God in central Florida show? Alanda Carter: Oh, yeah. Chris: Oh, yeah. Because you just reminded me of the Garbo system. Alanda Carter: Oh, yeah. Oh, that's. All of that is so on target now. That, to me, really looks like it's a take off of the Amway tool scam. Have you heard about that? Chris: The tool scam? Alanda Carter: The Amway tools scam? Kayla: No, we've heard about Amway, but I don't know if we've heard about that specifically. Alanda Carter: Okay. Not most mlms do. Not this. But I'm going to tell you about another one that does. That's kind of a take off of the amway thing. So. And this goes back into, like, the seventies. So what happened was at the time, like, in the sixties and seventies, there was a lot of personal development. That's why you see mlms infused with that type of stuff, you know, becoming the best person you can be. Well, the Amway distributors were like, huh, I can make me some money selling some books now. Okay. Like, have you ever heard of Esther Hicks?

54:53 Kayla: Yes. Alanda Carter: Abraham Hicks. Kayla: Yeah. Alanda Carter: Okay. Her husband Jerry, was an Amway distributor. Kayla: Oh, of course. Chris: Right. Alanda Carter: Okay. I did a video on that, too. Does that all kind of like, go click, click, click. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: Because you know what? Mlm people aren't, too the log of attraction on all of that, you know, and then you just have to reset your mind. But anyway, and Jerry was going around doing some of these presentations, and, you know, he had risen to, like, the highest level that you could in Amway. So this was a thing before the FTC came down on Amway and was like, put the kibosh on that, and then people broke away. And now you have things like worldwide dream builders, where you join worldwide dream builders, which is its own company, but they don't tell you that what you're going to do is then join Amway. So you can sell that. But there's another one. And magic. And magic is a water filtration. MLM started in Japan.

55:52 Kayla: Oh, my God. Alanda Carter: Yes. It's a $5,000 water filtration system. Chris: Holy shit. Alanda Carter: Yes, exactly. I have a playlist on them, and then I broke down all of their training. I showed how the entire scam that they're doing, how it goes, and they've come after me, so nobody come after me. Nobody come after me. But I've gone through them. The ace initiative, the breakaway movement. There's a CEO movement, but all of these, like, higher tier funds, they all have their own kind of training thing and their own thing that they get people to come in that way to make money. But the end goal is to get them to buy a $5,000 water filtration system so that they can then sell that, too. And the affiliate opportunity that they came in with. I know this is not spotty, but it's all part of it.

56:45 Chris: It's mind blowing. Kayla: Yeah. It's all connected. Chris: Yeah. I do want to ask, on the beachbody front, you talked a little bit about how you got in and what it was like. What was it like to leave? Like, what finally got you to say, this is, I'm done. Alanda Carter: God, okay. I'm so embarrassed to talk about this. Okay. So when I had joined social team builders, and I'm still friends with a good, with somebody that I met in there, and we talk very frequently and trying to crack the nut, and she had joined before me and she had made it to the right. She couldn't hold it, just like I couldn't hold my first rank, which was emerald. We were both like, you know what? We've learned a lot about social media. Maybe we could be social media coaches. And so I started along that path, but also because I was connecting with some people that were kind of like the spiritual law of attraction coaches, I started infusing some of that, too.

57:41 Alanda Carter: Well during all of this, eventually I started because I had been doing some independent contract work as an instructional designer, and that shut down. Like, suddenly. I mean, this has happened to me ever since, like, the cancer thing. It's like nothing has been really stable in that front. And as I was doing that, I'm like, huh? I just, you know, I just, things were feeling weird and I thought, you know what? I can teach people how to make courses because I'm having fake gurus come at me wanting me to create courses for them. And it's not. No, it's hell no, because I'm not doing that. And if I did, they wouldn't pay me for what it would cost for me to do all of that. Chris: Right, right.

58:22 Alanda Carter: And I was watching a lot more YouTube. Kayla: Sure. Alanda Carter: And I want to say probably another XYz. I think he probably came into my bubble, and that's where he was taking posts from Reddit and talking about the Huns. And I started seeing what people were thinking about what I used to, and that's when I realized what I had been. Meanwhile, I'm still paying my coaching fee. I'm not getting my monthly shipment of shakeology because we couldn't afford that anymore. And I just kind of went, huh. And because of my nature, that now that I had been away from all of the people that I had surrounded myself with. I started researching about multilevel marketing, and my nature is I want to understand things, and I want to understand why people are doing things. So I wanted to know the psychology behind it, all of this type of stuff. And so I started finding names.

59:19 Alanda Carter: Who had. I have found Doug. I found Robert Fitzpatrick, David Brehr. Connected with all of them because I wanted to get, like, people on my side, so to speak, that I can go to and ask questions. Kayla: Sure. Alanda Carter: That weren't just, like, people on YouTube, not saying, people on YouTube don't know anything, but I wanted to talk to, you know, boots on the ground, people who had been in it. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: And so I did. I did. And I started realizing, oh, my gosh, I've got to untangle this, but I've also got to share my story, but I also can't support this, even if it's just paying my coaching fee. So I just, like, canceled it, and nobody said a word to me. Now, here's the thing. I'm still in a lot of the beachbody groups. Kayla: Sure. Alanda Carter: And that's where I get some of my content, because it's insider information. Right. I just. I quietly grab things.

1:00:06 Kayla: Secret agent. Chris: Yeah. Alanda Carter: You know, but literally, I. So I didn't have that repercussion that some people do where they're treated like crap. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: I just kind of. But. But I am dealing with the psychological aftermath of all of that. Because you are traumatized by all that. You don't know it. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: You don't know you're being traumatized. And yesterday when I was talking to somebody, it's like you're mentally raped. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: That's the best way I can put it, because you are. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: And then it's like, how do you put yourself back together? That's kind of the long story of all that. Kayla: Are there resources for anyone who's coming out of these mlms and feeling that way that you know of? Or is that kind of like a blind spot we have?

1:00:49 Alanda Carter: It's a huge blind spot. There's not really. I really think that there is a psychological disorder that, you know, people could be labeled with because of the damage that mlms do to you. Let me see. What's his name? Because I interviewed him. Because there's. Because they were our members of the International Cultic Association Institute, or I can't remember what it's called exactly, but Stephen Hassen is a member of it. And this guy that I interviewed, Doug, and I can't think of his last name. His wife is Wendy. They were both in cults themselves, religious cults. And so he's familiar with basically what it's like to be in a cult since he was in it. And he does, you know, counsel for that. But there's very few people that counsel for cults.

1:01:37 Alanda Carter: There's no one that I know of that counsels people about how to recover from multilevel marketing. And that is something desperately needed, because right now, what I see is what I would classify as a lot of revenge of people attacking people who are currently in multilevel marketing and exposing them by showing their faces, going and sending them DM's, going on their social media and be like, that's a pyramid scheme. It is. Like, that is not going to do any good. That's just going to, that cognitive dissonance that's going to reinforce what their belief system is for the emblem, and they're going to dig their heels in more and go harder at it.

1:02:20 Alanda Carter: And I always say you've got to come at it from a place of, you know, a soft spot, love and kindness, as opposed to aggression and attacking, because no one likes that. Right. Right. Kayla: Yeah. Like you said, it. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Makes people dig their heels in. Chris: Yeah. It's funny. Actually, our very next question was like, you know, we did a bunch of watching of your videos, and actually, one thing I really like about your channel, like, how positive you are, and you always start by thanking your audience, and you had this whole thing about how, like, when you want to, you know, talk to somebody, talk sense to an MLM distributor, you make it a point to say that you can't have that confrontational approach. You have to be kind and understanding. And it's interesting because, like, we just did an episode two on cult deprogramming, and it feels like it feels a little bit similar to that. Right. Cult deprogramming can, you know, is there's good aspects and bad aspects to it. And the bad aspects are when it's this sort of confrontational approach that doesn't seem to work.

1:03:14 Chris: So it's interesting that you. That you sort of have this. It's more powerful to be kind and understanding and use that approach. So I don't know if you want to talk a little bit more about that. And I know you just kind of did. Alanda Carter: But yesterday I did a live stream, and I'll kind of tell the story of my rationalization behind this, which is nothing to do with MLM, but I think it paints a good picture as to what somebody actually needs because what they don't need is somebody coming at them hard. When they're in something that's destructive, they're in a destructive group. So if you come at them hard, that's just going to be more damaging to them. And how are they going to open up and change when somebody is attacking them?

1:03:55 Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: Not likely. So the story goes, my friend Michelle, her husband, were in Lagrange, Texas, where her sister married. And Michelle found out that day, and she's no longer with us. She died of brain cancer, and I miss her so very much. But she found out that day at her sister's wedding that her husband had cheated on her and wanted a divorce. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: So she, you can imagine the mess she was in. Chris: Sure. Alanda Carter: And so I was there for her. We were at her mom's house after the wedding, and Michelle is just like sobbing, and so she's like on my shoulder and literally I became a snot rag. That's what I was. I was just a snot rag for her. That's what she needed. She didn't need me going, what would that have done when she was in the state that she was in? It's the same thing when somebody is in an MLM and they have been put through this mental trauma. How are we going to help them if we do not offer a helping hand and love and kindness?

1:05:05 Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: I just don't think that people will respond to something being harsh because that is hurtful. So that's basically, I just go back to something like that. I know, give them what they need at that time, and that is be a friend, do what you would want someone to do for you. Would you want someone attacking you? Chris: Right. Alanda Carter: Probably not. Kayla: Yeah. That really, that's like so logical almost. Chris: Yeah, yeah. Changing gears a little bit. Another point that you made. So this is just like along theme of stuff I saw in your videos. Right. So another point that you made that really stuck with me and it's because I feel like I see this over and over with other mlms is how the really successful beachbody coaches were folks that already had like an established fitness or wellness business, and Beachbody was just like another piece of their puzzle. Can you talk more about that? And was this made clear to you when you were, got into it or were you sort of told, like, anybody can do this. It's, you know, just always told.

1:06:17 Alanda Carter: Anyone can do it. Anyone can do it. Most of the people that I know who are at the top of beachbody, they didn't have a fitness background. They just, you know, someone that is no longer in it. She had been a spanish actress in novellas. So do you think that she, you know, got a downline? Chris: Right? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Right. Alanda Carter: Shailene Johnson. Shailene created turbo kick, turbo jam Pio. Her sister is in it. Do you think her sister got a downline? Kayla: Probably. Chris: Right? Alanda Carter: Yeah. Kayla: I sense a pattern here. Alanda Carter: Yeah. But go back. This goes back to Sheffield group. Okay. Because they will teach people how to recruit, people who can recruit. Oh, there was another person that was in it that her husband's a professional baseball player. Do you think that made a difference?

1:07:08 Chris: Right, right. Yes. Yeah. Alanda Carter: Do you think being a lingerie model would help you? Kayla: That's. Yeah, that sounds like a great recruiting technique. Alanda Carter: You know, I mean, so there's a lot of these things that you. Because they just look like regular women now. You have no idea that there's any of this stuff really going on. Right. So the Sheffield group, what they. Okay, what will happen? Because I'm going to give the example of direct sellers. When direct sellers came on the market in 2017, and that's what my coach left to join a brand new MLM. Okay. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: You want people in that know how to recruit. So they're looking for people who are already in an MLM, and maybe that MLM is going through kind of like a downturn. Maybe those people aren't making the money that they made at one time, but they already have a team. They already know how to recruit. They've already established themselves in some way. And so then they'll be offered something to bring them on, and then they'll bring people with them.

1:08:13 Kayla: Okay. Chris: I see. Alanda Carter: Sometimes that can happen. You know, it's like they're getting people intentionally, and those are those first people come in, and then the person who was my coach, she's no longer with. Well, even when direct sellers were still around, she left and she went to hempworks, and now I think she's even with something else now. And one of the people who was a beachbody coach, he's now doing that whole, I'll teach you how to be successful in multilevel marketing. He's not doing that anymore. So, you know, there's these different offshoots. So basically, the answer is, you don't have to have a background in fitness. Most people do. Not even those at the top. Chris: Wow. But it seems like they do have a background in something that gives them a leg up, though, if they're at the top, is what you're saying. Right.

1:08:59 Alanda Carter: They have influence in some way. For instance, there's another one who was a pharmaceutical salesperson. And so she can talk about the ingredients and really sound like she knows what she's talking about. And she's already been in sales. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: So guess what she knows how to do. So see, there's all these, there's just this little hidden stuff. Somebody else who had worked for NBNBC, right. She had worked there in marketing. Do you think she knows how to market herself? Kayla: You know? Chris: Right. Alanda Carter: But anybody can do this. We're all on an even playing field and you're not, you know, that's the bottom line. You're really not.

1:09:40 Kayla: Could you, would you mind explaining for us and for our listeners something else that you've talked about? The quote, three vital behaviors, four vital behaviors. Alanda Carter: I'll be happy to do that. It started out as three transformed into four. Yeah, the first, this is very, I mean, I'm going to may not do them in the right order. First one is be a product of the product. And that's always thrown at you that way. And this goes into, you know, into the bite model or you guys are familiar with the bite model, right? Chris: That's the Steve Hassan thing. Alanda Carter: Yeah, yeah. Behavior control, information control, thought control, emotional control, saying that will quit for your listeners. And so being a product of the product really is behavior control because there you are buying the shakeology because, you know, you get that on auto ship so you can get the personal volume that you need. You're doing the workout program. You're doing all the things that you're told to do. So you're a product of the product. Another one is recognition. Recognition is kind of like love bombing, too. So if somebody has reach the first rank, there's a big to do about, oh, congratulate such and so and so for reaching this. Another thing they do on the national wake up call, which happens every Monday. And I won one time. I was so proud. Oh, my God, I was so proud I won the trivia question.

1:11:04 Alanda Carter: I mean, was I not it? You know, I got a little tote bag and a cookbook, you know, 21 day fixed cookbook. So recognition is another one. Another one is personal development. Where I talked about that earlier about the tool scam and how personal development was big in the sixties and seventies and how it's infused. Personal development is part of all of this because it goes back to, you got to get your mind right. You're the problem. If it's not working, you're not working hard enough. So now you got to do more personal development. Okay. And the fourth one is invite the one that nobody ever likes. The invite. That's where it goes back to hey, Honda. Hey, girl. Because you always have to be inviting them to a free group, to a challenge group, to become a coach.

1:11:50 Chris: Interesting. Alanda Carter: Those are the four vital behaviors. Chris: Yeah. And it's interesting that you related that back to the. To the bite model, and you've talked about love bombing and you talked about the cultic studies group. So I'll just kind of get into it. That's what our show is, right, is about cults or cult adjacent groups. In your mind, the cult metaphor is obviously a key component to this whole thing based on all of that. So why is that, like, what. What makes you keep coming back to that comparison? What makes you bring that up? Alanda Carter: Well, you know, it's interesting because for myself, what has really helped me is I started listening to a lot of Chris Sheffield. I don't know if you guys watch his channel or not. He's a former Scientologist, and. Oh, yeah.

1:12:35 Kayla: He's. Alanda Carter: He's amazing. And just listening to a lot of that, I was seeing myself as, you know, Chris was deconstructing things and having other people on. I think there was a particular episode where he had Andy fellows on. Andy was involved in an Internet cult, and I'm like, wow. It just. It just, like, all started clicking, and I already kind of had a feeling. But just hearing it over and over again, it was helping me recognize. Recognize what was going on. Now, the reason I specifically say that beachbody is a cult is, and I think they changed what the name of this document is. But back when I was a beachbody hunt, but it was called the business activity tracker. The business activity tracker. And I've done a video on this.

1:13:23 Alanda Carter: When you go through what you're supposed to do throughout the day, it covers all of the bite model. It's, like, all infused with that. And so I'm like, I'm getting it now. That's why. And I just also, I have a master's in anthropology, too. So I've been able to look at things from that perspective as well. And so when I'm able, now that I'm outside of it, I can pull back and I can actually examine it critically. I couldn't when I was in the middle of it. Chris: Right. Business activity tracker is a very sort of, like, ominously sounding simple name. Yeah, so you say. But it. It has all the bite model in it. So I assume that what you'll find in there is things that are controlling your behavior or at least prescribing behaviors, prescribing things for, you know, emotional control, whatever. Is that, is that accurate?

1:14:17 Alanda Carter: Yeah, it is. I mean, I'm not going to be able to hit all of it because I don't have a document up. But, for instance, you're tracking the invites that you do. You're tracking the shakeology, you're tracking your workouts, you're tracking that. Have you done your prep for your meals for the week? You're tracking your personal development. You're writing affirmations. I mean, there's, like, all of this stuff you're doing, the personal development. You're going to the national wake up call. All of these different things. Oh, you. And you must surround yourself with like minded people. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: And if someone isn't like minded, you don't need them in your life. You have a success partner. Your success partner is your buddy. That keeps you on track. And so that's another form of control. You go into these different groups. Everything about the bite model when it comes to multilevel marketing and specifically to beachbody, when it comes to religious cults, I think it's really easy for people to see everything about the bite model when people start discussing it. When it comes to a business opportunity cult, meaning a multilevel marketing company, it's harder because it's kind of, like, under the surface. And until you're, like, out from it and start deconstructing what happened to you're not going to make those connections because it's just not as evident.

1:15:36 Alanda Carter: It's because the nature of the person that I am now that I've woken up from this dream that was, you know, actually a nightmare, I can look at this, you know, from a distance and go, like, oh, I see this wear. This fits in this. Now, I can start putting that all together, but when you're in the middle of it, you can't. You just don't see anything. Your critical thinking has gone out the window. Cog in the machine by design, right? Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: Yeah, absolutely. And again, it goes back to the Sheffield group because it was funny when I was talking to Chris one time, he was like, well, there's not like, there's this, you know, dark school of arts. I'm like, oh, but there's a Sheffield group. He's like, oh, you have a dark school of art. I'm like, yes, there is one. There is one.

1:16:25 Chris: Oh, my gosh. That is so creepy. Kayla: Something that we like to do with our episodes is kind of like, try to find angle for the group or, like, a theme behind the story. So what do you think is the angle for beachbody? Like, what is. What is it about them as a company that makes them different from other mlMs? Like, I should come clean. I did insanity, like, six or seven years ago, and I had Shanti, baby. Oh, Shanti. I had no idea that they were an MLM until basically, until you started doing the research for this. Like, I had no idea there was an MLM component. Do you think that's part of the DNA that makes them different, or what are your thoughts on that? Alanda Carter: For me, I really see all mlms as so similar. So saying, like, how it's, like, so different, you know, it's really hard for me to see that. But Shawn T. He's a man. I just love me some Shawn. Love him. I want. I want to snuggle up with him and watch movies, and I just. I love him. But I recently saw him, and I can't remember what it was, but it was basically the big, huge webinar for multilevel marketers to go to. But I don't think everybody always knows. I know, I know. It kills me, but I don't think everybody always knows. Okay. When somebody joins an MLM, and let's just say they do have influence, I don't think they know what an MLM is in terms of how destructive it is to other people.

1:17:55 Alanda Carter: And then over time, because of cognitive dissonance, they're not going to be able to see it because it's working for them. So they're. Again, they're being traumatized mentally and have no idea. I think it's the same thing for super trainers like Shawn T. I'm sure he had no idea what a multi level marketing company was when he got involved with all of this. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: And now there he is, and he's not going to see it for what it is because of what his involvement has been. Kayla: Right, right. Alanda Carter: Which also hurts my heart, because I just. I just love. Kayla: I want to, like, shrink him down and carry him in my pocket everywhere. I. I love him. Alanda Carter: I know, but now I just can't get behind him because of the multi level. I just want to sit down and go like, Sean, dude, here's the deal. Step away. You know, you need to get him.

1:18:40 Chris: To watch your channel. Kayla: Yes, yes. Hash Saveshonte. Alanda Carter: Sort of hashtag, right? That would be great. Please, Sean, leave. Kayla: Sean, if you're listening, we're here to. Alanda Carter: Help, but in terms of how they're different. One of the things that, what hit me and hits a lot of women in this way is that sense of community, of thinking you're going to have community and support. And think about this, when you get out of high school, when you get out of college, when you get in the real world where you're married, you don't have time go around meeting people. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: And this just kind of slides right in and starts, you know, it makes you feel good. You have that quote, sisterhood, right. Even though it's all fake, you know, again. So I'm sorry, I can't tell. I can't tell you how they're different because I just see them all so eerily similar, right?

1:19:31 Chris: Oh, no, that's its own answer, right? Is that they're all so similar. Yeah, it's interesting you say that, too. Just back about like, oh, I'm not sure if people like shawn t know or people that join know. I mean, I didn't know until I started doing research on this for our show last year just how deep this rabbit hole goes and just how destructive it can be. Kind of like what you said we're saying before about it being a little bit of a blind spot, like just in our society. Kayla: Right. Chris: Okay. So since we are almost at the end of our questions, I have a tough one. I really want you to dig deep here. What are some positive or good aspects about team beachbody, if any? If any.

1:20:13 Alanda Carter: Well, okay. Their workout programs are really good. I mean, I enjoyed their workout programs, I will say that. But now, because it's associated with MLM, no way in hell, you know, but yes, you know, the super trainers, they put together something good. So that's, and that's pretty much what I'm going to say was the only thing that's positive because everything else would be the same crap as any other MLM. Oh, the community. But the community is fake. Kayla: Right. Alanda Carter: The opportunity. Well, there's really not much of one. I mean, you know, so it goes back to. Because I think the good thing is that it appears as if it's going to give you answer. It looks good. It sounds like it's easy. All of them. Make them. Make it sound easy. You just have to do the four vital behaviors. That's all you really have to do. Just do the four vital behaviors. Keep at it, don't stop, you know, keep going. Consistency and you'll have success because they want you to stay hooked in. So really the programs is about it. And it, the appearance, which again, is an illusion.

1:21:32 Kayla: Right. Right. Chris: Okay, so final question that I just like to ask all of our guests on the show, totally optional. Up to you. Is there anything we haven't talked about today that you would just like to tell to our listeners? Alanda Carter: If somebody that, you know, is in a multilevel marketing company, don't go, that's a pyramid scheme. That's a scam. Don't approach it that way. Just listen to them politely decline, build arsenal to be able to have so that when they realize and wake up, you can be there because you don't want to cut off relationships with them because they will cut relationships with you because you will be perceived as the enemy. Like, right now, I'm perceived as. You're like, I'm just a big fat loser. You know, I just didn't try hard. You know, it's, I'm the problem, not the structure of multilevel marketing. So it's going to be educate yourself with what you can do. And a lot of it goes back to, you know, the stuff that people use to help people in cults. So it's like, really start finding your information.

1:22:43 Alanda Carter: And, you know, resources that I can recommend would also be pyramidschemalert.org. David Breyer's MLm the American dream made nightmare. Robert Fitzpatrick of Pyramid scheme alert. He's coming out with the book Ponzi nomics, which I'm not sure when it's going to be out this year, but it's is supposed to be out this year. He goes through the history of mlms. There's a paper out online by doctor John Taylor where he analyzed over 400 compensation plans. Get that. I mean, just. And then listen to some different people. You know, listen to people who are putting out content that's educational and not just like MLM drama and kind of, you know, like, you know, going after people and exposing them and that kind of stuff, really, you know, get the education about the psychology that's used.

1:23:32 Alanda Carter: A book that I can recommend, which I have right here, is influence, the psychology of persuasion. Chris: I love that book. I read that book. That's such a good one. Alanda Carter: You know, learn about cults, learn about authoritarian control. You know, just learn about all of those things because it's all part of multilevel marketing. So that's basically what I can say. Chris: That's, that's great. It's. Man, it's so unsettling that folks like, you get sort of, like, attacked, portrayed as, like, the problem. I mean, I get it. I get that why they do that but it's. Man, that. That part is really unsettling to me. And just, I guess, thank you for continuing to. To be on the front line anyway, even in the face of that, you know, you.

1:24:14 Alanda Carter: Well, you guys are doing it, too, right? You're going out there. I'm sure you're attacked when anybody who goes speaks out against anything, we get the hate. Chris: Right? Actually, I'm looking forward to some hate because, what, like, 303 to 400 listeners. Kayla: An episode at this point, we're like, 430 now. Chris: Oh, 430 now. That's not bad. Alanda Carter: Okay, that's good. That's good. Chris: Welcome. I welcome the hate because it means that we're on the right track. Right. Kayla: I guess that's a way of looking at it, so. It is. Alanda Carter: I mean, it's. It's one way to look at myself, what I do on my channel, because I get called all kinds of things, and I'm like, you know what? Not only do I not need that, the people I'm helping, they don't need to see that. And I have. There's just stuff that I'm like by sis. Go away, Karen. Go. Go away, Ken. I mean, I don't. You know, nobody needs what you're selling because it's just a bunch of crap, and. And I'm just not going tolerate it in my backyard.

1:25:10 Kayla: Love that. Chris: Well, thank you so much for your time and expertise here. This has been a really good chat and just for our listeners. If you guys want to know more about mlms and beachbody, make sure you go watch and subscribe to the recovering hunbot on YouTube. Alanda Carter: My playlist on Beachbody is well over 30 videos on just Beachbot. Chris: Wow. And you've given me some other good leads here, too. We've been taking some notes. Alanda Carter: So if you guys have any questions, if I could help you in any way, just please, you know, reach out to me, and I'd love to have you come on my channel sometime on, too. Kayla: Be amazing if you'd be interested in. Alanda Carter: Doing that, you know, let's set that up. Chris: Yeah, please, for sure. Yeah, let's stay in touch. Yeah.

1:25:50 Alanda Carter: Talk to you later. Kayla: Thanks for talking. Chris: You, too. Alanda Carter: Bye. Chris: So she was super fun to talk to, and, man, I did not realize beforehand how much I still had to learn about the Mihden ecosystem. Kayla: It's insane. It's like the rabbit hole that. It's not just a rabbit hole, it's a bottomless rabbit pit. Chris: Yeah, I mean, I did a lot of research on this episode, and also on the Mary Kay episode, and, I mean, there's just so many things that I've dug into on this, and then I still learned some stuff from that interview. What are some things that you thought were. What are your takeaways?

1:26:34 Kayla: She's really cute, and I like her. Chris: That's your takeaway, that she's cute? Kayla: I really like her. This isn't for the episode. This is me. It's just the thing that I can't stop thinking about. I'll never be able to stop thinking about is just how insidious and vicious and damaging these. This structure of a business can be. Like, really a harsh language that she. She used to describe the emotional experience and, like, even unconsciously what she was experiencing. Chris: Right. Kayla: And I think that's kind of something that, when you come out of it, that's a universal experience. If you were as in it as. As she was, it's just. It's so. It's evil. Like, it's. It's what is done to people. It's such a cult.

1:27:24 Chris: Yeah. But then again, the counterpoint of Nancy Carlson of my mom's involvement in Mary Kay seemed to leave her with a positive. Kayla: Absolutely. I think that. I don't think the mlms of 1980 are the mlms of 2020. Chris: We did contend that on that episode. Kayla: It's something that, because I don't think the way Emma mlms started or a lot of these mlms started, they didn't necessarily start to be exploitive, but I think the more modern ones and mlms that have lasted a very long time pivot that way or start that way. Start with the intention of getting money, not making money.

1:28:12 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Exploiting people for that. Chris: Right. And remember what we said on that show, too, on that episode that was, like, right around the time that the FTC versus Amway decision happened, and so it feels like there's a case to be made that once that decision was made, the brakes were off, and after that, you potentially. You have these companies maybe feeling like they can be more and more pyramid shaped. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: Since they don't have to worry about that prosecutorially from the FTC as much anymore. Kayla: Right. Chris: But, yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about this one tidbit that she mentioned back towards the. Earlier in the interview, the Sheffield group?

1:28:54 Kayla: I'm terrified to talk about the Sheffield group. I feel like someone's gonna come kick our windows in and, like, take us away. I'm. I'm. That's a fucking scary ass name. Chris: I love that. It's meta. I love it's like a mlm. I know, right? Kayla: It's an MLM for mlms. Chris: It's an MLM for mlms. But it's such. Yeah, it's such, like a. It's such, like a. Yeah. Tv movie name. Kayla: You get. You feel like you're playing a video game and you feel like you're getting to the end only to realize you're only getting to the midpoint. And there's, like, a way bigger problem coming. And that's the Sheffield group. Yes. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And it's like. It's so funny. They didn't cross my radar when I was doing the Mary Kay research or even in the preliminary research that I did for our bit that we did before the interview.

1:29:37 Kayla: That makes it even scarier. Chris: I know, but I'm glad she brought it up. So after the interview, of course, I did spend a little time digging on them and spent some time on their website. And it's like. It's really weird because as sinister as it sounds, and I think it is, but it's, like, basically just a consulting business. Kayla: Right. It seems like. Chris: Like their website is very. Just, like, benign looking. And it seems to mostly revolve around this one guy, Mike Sheffield. And, like, I'm sure he employs people, but I couldn't really get a sense from his website, like, how many or what roles they had or anything like that. The closest I got was that one of their testimonials mentioned, quote, mike Sheffield and his team, their website is mostly dedicated to, like, hard selling their consulting services to MLM startups and even to established MLM companies. So it totally makes sense that they would be the company, the consulting company that beachbody would go to be like, hey, how do we do this? How do we make this happen?

1:30:44 Chris: And you remember all the way back when were doing the pre interview chat, just you and me, earlier in the episode, and were looking at their compensation structure, and you were like, oh, man, that looks crazy. It's almost like you need to be a full time job. Well, guess what one of the things is. Guess what one of these services is that they offer that website. And another one I went to called mLM.com, spend a good amount of time talking about compensation plans. Like, that's something that they spend a lot of effort and resources and design work on. Kayla: They hire people to build big part of it. Impossible mazes. They hire business.

1:31:26 Chris: Yeah. Although they don't. I don't think, you know, like, a lot of these, you know, cult leader situations. I don't think they see it that way. You know? Like, I don't think that they. Kayla: You don't? Chris: I just. I know, like, the impression that I get is that, like, they all think that this is, like, super legit. You know, just. They're doing great work. I mean, you should read some of their. Kayla: Is it time cube, though? Like, are they all insane? Are they all just. Chris: I don't know. But, like, here's. Kayla: The compensation structures are literally decipherable. Chris: I know. By the way, here's their offices in Scottsdale, Arizona. It's just like, this nondescript building. Yeah, it's just, like, literally. I think it's just some guy and a few other people just.

1:32:08 Kayla: I don't like his logo. Chris: Insulting. Kayla: I don't like his logo. Chris: One way. I know it's very. Oh, the lion. Kayla: The scary red lion. White letters with the black background. Chris: No, but when I say I think that they believe their own rhetoric and they're drinking their own Kool aid. Here's this mission that they. So they. There's a mission statement on sheffield.com. Sheffieldnet.com, by the way, is the name. Kayla: Of their website, sheffieldnet.com. Oh, it's creepy. Oh, I hate it. Chris: But their mission statement is rather long. Service to mankind is the rent we pay for our space on earth. Our company's success is directly related to the service we render. The needs of each the Sheffield group client are the number one priority of our company. We are committed to the continuing research and analysis of tactics leading to the success of our clients. And then just. I don't want to read the whole thing because it's like, literally another, like ten sentences of the exact same thing. But that whole first bit. Service to mankind is the rent we pay for our space on Earth. Like, they really do feel like they're doing good work.

1:33:09 Kayla: I'm pretty sure I have a very different. Chris: You have a different reaction to that? Yeah. Look at how, like, hard sell this. Kayla: Also, it was all in quotes, so clearly they don't actually mean it. Chris: But, yeah, they're, like, a lot of their stuff. Kayla: Somebody built this website for him. He did not build this website. Chris: No, of course not. Kayla: This is like, who makes the MLM? MLM? Mlm. Like, who's an MLM? Chris: Are you saying there's, like, a group of, like, web developers that are themselves part of an MLM? Kayla: I don't know, but, yeah, you can. Chris: See there's, like, a whole section of their website here dedicated to compensation system.

1:33:51 Kayla: Course, the logo for that is a diamond. Chris: Diamond. Yeah. Because it's, like, all, like, diamond level person, coach. Kayla: So much business words like synergy all. Chris: Up in the wazoo. So as a consulting company, they make a pretty big deal about their current and former client list, and it's a long list. Kayla: Tell me them. Tell me them. I need to know. Chris: So here's some of them. Here's some. Some of them. New skin, young living. It works. Marketing. Kayla: It works. Chris: It works. Remember, it works. That's that one with a weird commercial. Reader's Digest is on there, which I didn't know is MLM. Or they have some m. I don't know. It's on what? It's on their client list.

1:34:34 Kayla: I have to look that up. Chris: Something called longevity International, which is creepy. Kayla: That is definitely, like, cryogenics or something. Chris: Amway. Kayla: Oh. Oh, shocked. Chris: Yeah. And, of course, beach body. Kayla: And literally. Literally beach body or hundreds more. Chris: Well, beach body, because that's, like, the parent. Like, that's. Kayla: Okay. Okay. Okay. Chris: They took beach body and spun off team Beachbot. I mean, still, you know, reports up to the same corporate structure, but. Yeah. Kayla: So you said there's hundreds? More than that. Chris: Hundreds. Let me find their client list. Kayla: You. Chris: Real quick here. Here we go. Here's their client list. Kayla: Oh, are these all mlms?

1:35:16 Chris: I am not sure, but it's a long list. And. Kayla: Wait. Can you go a little slower so I'll look at some of them? Sorry. Chris: Most of these I haven't heard wise. I don't know. Kayla: Slim jevity. Chris: I don't know. Kayla: There's a lot of books are fun. Chris: Like, bon sela, amerilife, master guardhouse. Oh, hey, here's the one we almost talked about. Trek alliance. Kayla: These are so just. Chris: The names are so weird. Kayla: Makeup eraser. Chris: Mister food. Kayla: Mister food. Oh, my God. Chris: I kind of want to do, like, a game where, like, you con air. You have to, like, guess the product. Kayla: Yeah, I want to do that, too. Chris: Let's do that on our Patreon with our listeners.

1:35:58 Kayla: Go up a little bit. Chris: Like, we'll do, like, we'll do, like, a guest quiz. Kayla: Go down again. National health insurance. Chris: I don't know. There's. Microsoft's on here, too, so. Kayla: Time warners. Chris: MSN TV. Yeah. I don't know. Goofy rankers on here. Anyway, so. A lot. A lot. Kayla: That's, That's too much, I would say. Chris: Yeah. So, anyway, the whole thing feels just, like, a little weird. Like, I know there are niche consulting companies out there, like, consulting companies that are devoted to specific industries, and this is clearly one of those. So it's not weird in that sense. But I don't know. I guess it's just like the business model that they're helping to survive and thrive and grow. That that's what really feels gross. It's, you know, the website itself doesn't feel that crazy. Although, like you said, I guess their logo is a little creepy. And clearly you can tell from their client list that their influence is vast. Yeah. But they do seem to be part of this, like, rather small circle of players in the industry.

1:36:57 Chris: So I found in my research that for many years, Mike Sheffield was the head of an organization called the MLMIA, which is not MLMIA, it's MLM. Ia. Not missing an action. Anyway. Kayla: ML mia, mlmia. What does, what does that stand for? Chris: Multilevel Marketing International association. Kayla: Okay. Chris: According to their site quote, he, Mike Sheffield served as executive vice president from 1985 until elected chairman in 1996. He was also a founder. And Mike became chairman emeritus of MLMIA in 2003. He is now in their hall of fame. I'm not sure what that means, but here's their hall of fame webpage. And by the way, definitely share this with all of our listeners. What? Yeah, it's just a picture of, like a, like a trashy plastic trophy. And then it has, it's got text on it that just like, copy pasted text of hall of Fame MLM people. It's really confusing. I don't know.

1:38:02 Kayla: Also, I feel like I've seen that logo before. Chris: Well, it's a popular logo style because it's like, it looks like a person. Kayla: Also, 949 area code. Chris: Is that us? Kayla: Isn't that. Yeah, it's. 949 is southern Orange county. It's Irvine or like Irvine. Chris: It always comes back to one of our episodes. It's amazing. Let's see. Contact us MLMia Worldwide Doris Wood, Chairman 119 Stanford Court Irvine, California 92612 website that's awesome. We should visit there. Like, why? Irvine is like this weird cult nexus. So anyway, along with MLMIA, the Sheffield group is also partnered with mLMlegal.com, which is owned and operated by Babner and Associates, which I found. Unfortunately, Mister Babner himself appears to have passed away in March of this year, sadly.

1:39:02 Kayla: Oh, gosh. Chris: But it's not the first appearance that mlMlegal.com has made on cult or just weird. We talked about them in the MLM primer episode. We did as well. Yeah, I remember them more accurately. I quoted some bits from their site. But all this, though, really comes back to the point that mlms tend to have to navigate very difficult legal waters to be able to do business. So having a law firm dedicated to it and partnering with them as a consulting company makes a lot of sense. But again, what I'm trying to illustrate here is it's like this like tight knit little group, it seems like. Kayla: Right? Right. Chris: Anyway, when I was digging through the Sheffield Group website and mlmlegal.com and mLm.com and mlmia.com, i ran into a couple of interesting arguments about the structure of mlms that I wanted to share here. Just kind of set me down a rabbit hole when we did that interview with Hunbot. So these sites have a bunch of articles just sharing information on the state of the industry, legal frameworks, etcetera, and a few of them caught my eye. The first is an article from mlmia.com called MLMiA Legal Mentoring series what is MLM and what is a pyramid? Written by Gerald Nehra, network marketing attorney and this article essentially attempts to define the difference between direct sales, multilevel marketing, and an illegal pyramid scheme. This is the summary paragraph of what Mister Nara has to say. What is a pyramid?

1:40:26 Chris: By restating what is a single level income opportunity and what is a multi level income opportunity, we get to what is a pyramid when the only way an independent contractor can make money with the company is by personally generating business volume, the company is offered a single level income opportunity. If, however, the company offers two ways to make money, generate business volume and optionally find, which is to sponsor, recruit, or refer other independent contractors who generate business volume, the company is offering a multilevel income opportunity. The key is that the independent contractors are empowered to find and rewarded for finding additional independent contractors. That is the very definition, legally, of multilevel. Chris: But the rewarded for above can only be an indirect reward based on the business volume of the second independent contractor, the reward can never be an immediate reward for just finding the additional participant. Such an immediate reward is pyramidal and illegal. In an illegal pyramid, the act of finding another participant is rewarded based on the act of recruiting instead of based on the business volume of the recruited person. Another shortcut definition of pyramid, rewarding a participant for bringing in another participant, end quote.

1:41:38 Kayla: That all sounds very suspect. Chris: Well, yeah, I mean, it's actually, to me it sounded pretty logical in terms of a breakdown anyway. Like you can point to some pretty clear borders in how you define these things using that framework, right? Like you say, okay, single level income opportunity is I sell stuff, multi level is I recruit somebody to sell stuff, and pure is I recruit somebody and I get money for that. Kayla: Right. Chris: But those last two things aren't like. Like, one of those things is not like the other. Right. It's like either I sell stuff, I recruit someone to sell stuff, or it's not an or at that point. Like, it's a both. And I think that's where his argument sort of breaks down. Kayla: Right. Chris: I can definitely get on board with his definition of a classic pyramid scheme. Like, that makes sense if I recruit somebody and they have to pay me money to get into the pyramid scheme. And then that's where you get that airplane game. Right?

1:42:31 Kayla: Right. Chris: But he says that a pyramid scheme is one in which you only make money by recruiting others. And as part of that definition, he also says that the money must come from the act of recruiting, not from any further sales down the line. To me, that feels like a technicality. It's an important distinction to have a product that a company is actually selling. Yes. But the thing that these arguments by these people in the MLM industry never seem to take into account is the math. Even if your reward comes from downline sales, not from just when you recruited the person. Kayla: Right. Chris: As long as everyone has the same incentive to keep recruiting more downline, eventually you still run out of people either way, right?

1:43:15 Kayla: Right. Chris: If everyone is an amway or a herbalife or beachbody salesman, then there's nobody to sell product to anymore. Right. Eventually you run out of people. If everybody becomes a recruit, then there's nobody to actually sell to. You're just, everybody is part of the scheme. Kayla: Right. Chris: And a lot of the argument in the FTC versus Amway case actually did rest on exactly that, the market saturation argument. And like hell, if you ignore the mathematical impossibility of infinite chain recruiting, then even a classic illegal pyramid scheme would actually work just fine. So ignoring that is just disingenuous. Right. If you say, if you ignore that mathematical impossibility of the chain recruiting, then, like regular pyramid schemes shouldn't even be illegal, right?

1:44:01 Kayla: Right. Chris: So it's not whether the money comes right now, whether I recruit you, or whether it comes in the future when you generate business volume as my recruit. That's not the problem. The problem is the chain recruiting. It seems that they just willfully ignore that. I don't know. Kayla: That's so interesting. Chris: Yeah. But I do understand why he'd want to formulate that argument if your job is network marketing attorney. And I'll add to his nice little platonic ideal definition that most MLM companies do have some sort of buy in or fee system or minimum volume requirements, which at the end of the day, to me, basically constitute the exact thing he is saying that makes a pyramid. It's a recruiting transaction. Most companies have some sort of like, you have to buy in with some starter pack or something. Reading on MLM.com, i also ran into another interesting notion in an article called so you are thinking of starting a company. What you need to know by Sean Smith. And yeah, that's all in caps.

1:44:58 Kayla: Why? Chris: I don't know. Kayla: Why is he yelling? Chris: I don't know. And this article was talking all about what's called the technology innovation cycle, although I don't know if he cited it as such. The technology innovation cycle, which I've also heard referred to as like, customer innovation cycle or technology adoption curve, is something that businessy types love to talk about. You get taught about it at business school. You may have even seen it yourself. Here's a diagram. I'll post this a course on our instagram. You've seen this, where you have, like, you basically have a bell curve, and then they chop it up into bits and they say, here's your innovators. They're like the early people that like, you know, engage with your product right at the beginning when it's still an R and D or whatever, your beta testers, right?

1:45:41 Chris: And then you have early adopters, which is like, you know, your early customers, people that are willing to give something a try, they're like the techies that go out and buy the iPhones right. Kayla: Off the bat, right? Chris: Then your early majority, late majority already in laggards. And all you're really talking about is where your customers tend to fall in terms of, like, when they pick up your product, right? Right. So this article on mlM.com took this and applied it to distributors. In this framework, they were saying that you have like, innovator distributors and early adopter distributors, and some distributors discover your product early and love it, and they become superstars. And some pick it up later. You know, they're less super superstars, and some are even laggards, and they're, like, not as good at selling as the early distributors. So do you see what's weird about that? What kind of set wrong with me about that?

1:46:30 Kayla: I don't know if I can articulate it, but yeah, there's something not right. Chris: It's that the actual innovation curve that most people talk about is about customers adopting a new technology or product, not about your own potential sales force adopting a new technology. Or product. Kayla: Yeah. Doesn't make any fucking sense. Chris: So it's very telling to me that someone writing on MLM.com would completely conflate a customer and a distributor. And it tells me exactly where MLM companies heads really are on this. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: MLM companies fundamentally view their distributors as customers, as their revenue source, not as tools to generate revenue like an ordinary employee. And this is why, like, quote, unquote, personal use of MLM products is so contested legally. Personal use is actually a whole additional can of worms that we can go into on the show, but we're kind of going along on time. And also, I wanted to hold a few things for the back pocket when we do our next MLM episode, inevitably, or if we just, like, spin off a podcast about MLM or just legal cases or something. But I found some interesting stuff about that, too, that we didn't know about, that we hadn't heard about. Oh, shit, either.

1:47:43 Chris: Actually, Hunbut probably has a, she has a bunch of videos, so recovering Hunbut, I'm sure, probably already knows about this thing, but I'm not even gonna mention it here. I'm just gonna. Kayla: So you are mentioning it. Chris: I am mentioning it, but I'm not gonna say what the case. It's a legal case, but I'll just say that in some future episode, we'll get to that. Kayla: All right. Chris: Anyway, I'm so very appreciative that recovering Hunbot talked to us, and I want to make a specific point of the fact that she uses empathy and kindness in her messaging. We talked about this a little bit during the interview, but it's really important to remember that in the case of a lot of these mlms and cults in general, that the very people you may be going to intellectual war against are themselves victims. It's extremely difficult to lead with kindness when someone or something is actively trying to do you harm. And while the anti MLM community online is doing great, amazing work, it sometimes comes off a little like, us versus them and judging.

1:48:39 Kayla: Sometimes it can be very angry, it. Chris: Can be very aggressive, which I super understand because people posting on, like, the anti MLM subreddit are people who have been really hurt by this stuff. So I super get it. And again, that's what makes it so incredibly difficult to lead with kindness. It sort of reminds me of, like, zombie movies or like, the Borg on Star Trek, you know, like, they might be attacking you, but they themselves are, like, the victims of assimilation. Kayla: Right? Right. Chris: Man, I had Star Trek in my script before we even bantered about it. Kayla: Oh, geez, we're time traveling over here. Chris: Less amusingly, it also reminds me of the life after hate folks that we talked about on the creativity episode. Kayla: Right. Chris: The work they do is so amazing because they have to lead with empathy and understanding and kindness, or else what they're doing just won't even work, even though the people they're trying to reach just have some of the most despicable ideologies. Hate filled shit. I don't think I could do that job.

1:49:34 Kayla: No. It takes a very special. A very special understanding, patient person. Chris: Yeah. But bringing it back, it's so important for their two be people like that. It's so important to have advocates for kindness and empathy, even when it is so difficult to do so. And so I just wanted to say I really, truly appreciate that about recovering Hunbot and her YouTube channel. Kayla: Same. That makes a lot of sense. Chris: All right, so finally, or I guess, penultimately, it's time for me to list my sources for this episode, which, yes, I'm still doing at the end of the episode, and I still don't know why switched, but I did. So for this episode, we got, in no particular order, the recovering hunbot and multiple of her videos on YouTube.

1:50:17 Kayla: What? Chris: I know. Weird, right? Kayla: Shocked. Chris: It's actually, this is what's shitty about doing the sources at the end is that I'm just like, here's all the things that I already said. But then if I do it at the beginning, then it's like, spoilers. I don't know. Kayla: Yeah. Or like, here's a bunch of context list stuff, right? Chris: Yeah, exactly. Beachbody.com, teambeachbody.com, mlm.com. Multiple articles there. Sheffield net.com, mlmia.com. Michael Sheffield's LinkedIn page. Kayla: What? Chris: Oh, yeah. You wanted to see a picture of him. Kayla: I did want to see a picture of him. Chris: It's exactly how you would think. Kayla: Oh, no, he's so cute. Oh, he looks. Oh, he's cute.

1:50:59 Chris: He's like a cute old dude. Kayla: I love him. Chris: Mlmtruth.org article called, what about team Beachbody? Mlmtruth.org, comma, by the way, is the anti MLM coalition on Facebook, to whom I owe the gratitude of hooking us up with the interview. Cosmopolitan.com. And I already mentioned the name of that article earlier in the show, but this cultish workout is all over your social media feeds. But is it legit? Yourmoneygeek.com. Why you should avoid beachbody coaching and other MLM schemes. Ethanvanderbilt.com a blog article titled team beachbody scam. Yes, it is, in my opinion. Kayla: Sorry, I don't want to laugh at that.

1:51:39 Chris: No, I think it's funny. I laughed at it. And actually that was where I got the. He does a lot of details on his post and. Kayla: Oh, nice. Chris: And that's where he has like the product in the compensation plan and stuff. Kayla: Gotcha. Chris: And then, perfectionhangover.com. Multiple blog posts, including why I quit Beachbody, the truth about multilevel marketing, and I actually really love this website, by the way, this lady's website. I wish I had the space to quote more of her in the episode, but I highly recommend checking it out. Perfectionhangover.com there's lots of cool, like, personal development and finance advice there, built from some hard learned experience on her part. And then finally, good old Forbes magazine, for whom some strange reason we always seem to have an article from Forbes. Yep, it's like every cult or just weird episode we seem to, like, have a Forbes article.

1:52:27 Kayla: I really don't understand why they just have extensive reporting. Chris: Yeah, I guess so. And we're always like, talking about fucking business on the show, too. So anyway, inside Beachbody's billion dollar fat burning empire was the name of that article. Kayla: There you go. Chris: All right, Kayla, it's that paper. Crinkling tongue. You ready? Kayla: Do I have to crinkle the paper? Chris: No. There we go. Kayla: Actually, before we do this, you didn't talk about the worst part about team beachbody. Chris: There's no I in team. No, there's no Shawn T in team. Kayla: It's the fact that if you don't say it properly, it sounds like you're saying teen beachbody.

1:53:07 Chris: Oh, teen beachbody. That's what it is. I thought it was what that was this whole time. Kayla: Teen beach body. Chris: Teen beach body. That's a different thing. Kayla: Very different thing. Chris: Disgusting. Don't google that. Or do, I guess. Kayla: Don't. All right. Criterion expected harm towards the individual. Is it niche within its society? Antifactuality? Percentage of life consumed? Ritual. Charismatic leader. Do you want to give a gut before we go into this? Chris: My gut is that it's. Yes. My overall about this is just. I think it's basically Mary Kay minus the charismatic leader. Yeah, we talked about Carl Dichler, the CEO.

1:53:51 Kayla: He ain't Mary Kay. Chris: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I read some quotes from him in the Forbes article. I read some statement by him on their own website, but maybe somebody else. I don't know. He just seems like a regular CEO. Kayla: Is it Shawn T? Is it Paul Ryan? Who is it? Chris: Both. Kayla: It's a Sean Ryan. Chris: Weird Voltron amalgamation of Shawn T and Paul Ryan. Kayla: Shanti would never be caught dead. Chris: That's what makes Voltron. So. Yeah, that's. That's my gut. Kayla: I think we'll have a hard time finding an MLM that we don't kind of give the cult label to, is the thing. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Are we talking about Sheffield group as its own thing in here at all or not? We're just talking about beachbody.

1:54:31 Chris: I think we should. I think the thing on the table is team beachbody, but I think it's totally appropriate to talk about, like, Sheffield group being in that orbit. Kayla: Right? I mean. Okay. Expected harm. High, because it's an MLM. Chris: Yeah. Based on what recovering Hunbot told us, it seems like there was definitely some. Kayla: Harm going on there a lot. Financially, socially, psychologically, emotionally. Is it niche? No. Chris: Yeah, it seems like it's pretty. Kayla: It's pretty widespread. Chris: I mean. I mean, that's like you were exposed to at least the everybody knows insanity. Kayla: Paul Ryan talked about. P 90 X, hip hop, abs, Piyo. It's all over the place.

1:55:13 Chris: Cosmopolitan says this cultish workout is all over your social media feeds. So it's pretty much all over the place. So not niche. Kayla: Anti factuality. Very high, because, again, MLM right there, you can't make money on an MLM. Chris: Right. Kayla: You just can't. Chris: Right. Kayla: At least not in 2020. Percentage of life consumed. What do you think? Chris: According, again, according to recovering Hunbot, it sounded like she was sinking a lot of time and effort, and they were doing the love bombing thing, and they were really trying to bring her into the fold and spend a lot of time doing this. So it seems like it sucks up a lot of time. I'd say hi. Kayla: And that's the other thing about mlms, is that it's presented as, like, here's a job for you. You get to be this independent salesperson, but then, like, your entire identity ends up becoming this thing. It's not just, like, your job. It's you are like this. Your entire life is being this brand ambassador. You have to use the products, and you have to constantly be posting about the products. You have to constantly have to be.

1:56:10 Chris: Talking to somebody in line at the grocery store or at least back when, you know, went places, literally. Kayla: It's a cult. Chris: Yeah. And not just that, but, like, we talked about this for a hot second on the show today, but the company is exploiting you for your social capital. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: So it's like they. They know that you have all of this credential built up with your friend circle, with your social media circle, whatever, and. Kayla: Oh, God, and they exploit that. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: It's literally like a parasite hijacking you. Chris: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Kayla: You do get you. It's a Borg. It is horrible. Chris: Yeah, I know. That's right. Because you're not just selling to them, you're also trying to get them to join. Yeah, join us.

1:56:52 Kayla: And rituals pretty high up there, in my opinion. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And like we said, hip hop ritual. Hip hop ritual. Might. You do this, you do this, you do crunches. Kayla's and no charismatic leader, but I think we don't really need one here because everything is. Chris: I'll say the CEO exists, but low. I think if Shanti would just take over. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Then all of a sudden it would become super charismatic. And I think he could go toe toe with Mary Kay. Kayla: Oh, yeah. But Mary Kay built an empire. Shanti. Chris: That's true. Kayla: Shanti is just great at what he does. Chris: He's just a guru. Kayla: He is. I would follow Shanti into hell.

1:57:33 Chris: So we're calling it a cult. Kayla: Yeah, I. Yes, I am. And you did. So it's a cult, guys. Chris: All right. Kayla: Don't join a cult. Chris: Don't. Don't join cults, everybody. Kayla: That's the takeaway here. Chris: Don't do it. If I had to say takeaway for this, I think it's approach with kindness, if you can. That's my. My preferred through line for this episode is if you can try to approach somebody that has fallen under influence of things like this with understanding and kindness and try not to be confrontational. And I know I'm talking to myself as much as I am to any listener about that. It's really hard to do. Kayla: Just make sure you don't get dragged down yourself. And I think, unfortunately, we're probably moving into an era where this thing may become very common. Common because we are experiencing such high levels of unemployment and people are losing their livelihoods, and there's a lot of people are going to be desperate for work and desperate to feel a sense of control and desperate to have all the things that an MLM can provide.

1:58:38 Chris: Can promise. Kayla: Can promise. Sorry, can't provide. Says they can provide. So it might be incumbent on a lot of us to prevent, combat and be gentle. Chris: I agree. Kayla: Thanks so much to Alonda Carter, covering hunbot for talking to us today. That was amazing. Chris: Yeah. Thanks for deborgifying people. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Sorry that you were assimilated by the Borg as well. I'm glad you escaped, but definitely go check out her YouTube channel. And actually, there's a separate reason why you should go check out her YouTube channel. Because we here at Carltage is weird. Are finally going to be interview guests ourselves. Kayla: What? Chris: I know. It makes me feel so important and cool. Kayla: Oh, my God, we are so important and cool.

1:59:19 Chris: So we are going to be making an appearance on her channel. As soon as that is up, we will definitely share and link and all that stuff on social medias. Kayla: And you better go watch it. Chris: Yeah, you better watch it. Swear to God. All right, this is Chris, this is Kayla, and this has been cult or just weird? Kayla: Didn't we say were not gonna do that anymore? Chris: Yeah, but then you just said cult, so I had to say. Kayla: Cause you were looking. They didn't want to do. Chris: We should sort that shit out eventually. Yeah.