S2E3 - The Main Course (Intermittent Fasting)

0:00 Kayla: In this episode of Cult or just weird, we're going to be talking a lot about food, dieting, eating disorders and related content. If you have an eating disorder, are in recovery, or know that diet related talk may be triggering for you, please consider skipping this episode. And if you need help, please visit the National association of Anorexia nervosa and Associated Disorders, or anad@anad.org. Dot. That's anad.org dot. Okay, we gotta get through this. We have too much to talk about today. We can't even do intros.

1:11 Chris: We'll be like the micro machines guy and go talk about. Talk like the micro machines guy. Kayla: What's the micro machines guy? Chris: You don't. You don't know the micro machines guy? I thought you were in the nineties. You did the nineties, right? Kayla: I did, yeah. Chris: There was this guy on t. You remember? You remember what micro machines are? Kayla: They're little cars. Chris: Yeah. And there was this guy that did this. Like, all the ads for micro machines on television were this dude. And he talked really fast. Kayla: Okay, we can't talk about this right now. We don't have the time. We don't have the time. Chris: But if we did talk like him, then we would have. Kayla: I can't talk like him. This is cult or just weird. I'm Kayla. Chris: I'm Chris. Kayla: I'm not actually exasperated. This topic is fucking fascinating. I've spent so much time reading about it. I want to make 10,000 podcasts about this topic.

1:56 Chris: Sounds like that we are gonna have 10,000 podcasts. Kayla: We very well. You know what? Chris: Which is great because I don't have to go for a while. Kayla: This is the second part of an episode. Second part two? Chris: Part two of the 327 part series. Kayla: I won't say it's the last part. If you listened to the episode last week, and, you know, I kind of. I would recommend you listen to last week's episode before you listen to this week's episode. Chris: I typically would recommend listening to our podcast. Kayla: Yes, absolutely. But if you for some reason are listening to these out of order, I don't necessarily know that 100%. You need to listen to last week's episode to be able to appreciate this week's episode. But it helps. So stop what you're doing, go listen to the other podcast and then come back.

2:38 Chris: Yeah, if you're not listening to our podcast episodes, then what are you even doing anyway? You have your priorities wrong. Kayla: Welcome back. This is Kayla and Chris from Coldridge is weird. Now you can listen to this episode today we are talking about. Chris: Wait, we have some business. Kayla: No, we don't. I can't. We don't have time for business. Chris: We gotta go drive people to our Patreon, my friend. Kayla: Okay. Go. Chris: I just want to mention, because we've been putting more stuff on Patreon lately, we've been putting a lot of bonus content. So go check out our Patreon page. It's just patreon.com. Cult or just weird. And. And go check it out. It's free. Kayla: It's free during the pandemic.

3:19 Chris: Yes. Kayla: Which, you know, we did 45 minutes on Waco. Chris: You guys, I am hoping that is something. A short amount of time, but it'll be free as long as it needs to be. So go do it. Go and go. Now. How does that feel? How does it feel to be. Kayla: I love it. It's my favorite thing. So today we are going to be talking about a topic that's near and dear to so many of our emaciated hearts. We're going to talk about fasting. So. Chris: Wait. Oh, and I'm. I'm the interviewee. Kayla: You are going to be our resident expert on this episode. But unfortunately, the way that I structured it, and I don't really know how this happened, but it just kept happening and kept happening. Your interview is, like, gonna be the last thing we do.

4:04 Chris: Wow. Okay, cool. So just keep them in suspense then. Kayla: Sorry. Keeping you in suspense. Chris: And me. Kayla: If you listened to last week's episode, which is part one of this series, we. I don't even know what we talked about. We talked a lot about just the state of wellness in our culture, the tying of weight to the concept of wellness. My background, your background, just a lot of stuff to give context. Chris: We talked about clean eating. We didn't talk a lot about cleaning processed foods. Kayla: Processed foods. Chris: We talked about registered dietary nutritionists versus not. Kayla: Yep. Get your experts, guys. And that was all to lay the groundwork for what we're talking about today, which I've said a million times, is fasting. So let's get to it. First, I want to explain some different kinds of fasting. There are many different kinds of fasting. We'll only be able touch on a few categories, and I've kind of lumped some categories together. These aren't, These aren't, like, official categories. These are just like my categories that I found. So, in general, as we talk fasting, we'll be discussing a planned period of abstinence. Abstinence.

5:19 Chris: Abstinence. Kayla: A planned period of abstaining. From consuming food. The three following categories will be where our focus lies today. Number one, fasting for health. In this, I'm including fasting supervised by a doctor for health reasons, like fasting before surgery or to aid weight loss, which, as we discussed last week, may or may not be a health reason. I don't know. Chris: And, well, you fast for surgery. You get to drink that delicious mineral oil. Kayla: Well, that's a. I guess that's only. Chris: If you get a colonoscopy. Kayla: Yeah, that's only if you get a colonoscopy. Yeah. So you just outage yourself? Chris: I have received a colonoscopy, yes. There's nothing wrong with that. Kayla: No, there isn't anything wrong with that. But, yeah, some. Some generally have to fast before surgery. There's also non doctor supervised health. Fasting for health. You know, this is including, like, juice fasting and the master cleanse. And, of course, intermittent fasting. What is intermittent fasting? I'm not asking you that.

6:20 Chris: Okay, you know what? Last week you said you were gonna interview me about my intermittent fasting. And then this week you're like, maybe. Kayla: I am gonna interview you about intermittent fasting. I have some very intelligent, well thought out questions for you. Chris: I can't promise the same in return. Kayla: It's the dessert of this episode. Chris: The fasting is the dessert. Okay. I guess the whole episode is fasting. Kayla: No, you are the dessert. Chris: Oh. Ooh. Kayla: Don't you want to be the dessert? Chris: This just got rated R. Ew said. Kayla: What is intermittent fasting? Intermittent fasting. Or if, as we'll refer to it, because intermittent fasting, it sucks to say. Chris: It'S a lot of selves. Kayla: So if is a pattern of eating that cycles between periods of fasting and periods of eating. It's really as simple as that. It's dissimilar to a diet in what, you know, types of foods aren't necessarily prescribed or forbidden. Instead, the focus is on when you eat. So kind of like how we all fast when we sleep. Like, generally, you fast from after dinner to when you wake up in the morning to eat breakfast. Intermittent fasting just kind of takes that pattern and squeezes it or stretches it or modifies it in a way to match the style of intermittent fasting that the person wants to approach. Styles of intermittent fasting are often included alongside other diets. It's really, like, used, incorporated with paleo and keto and, like, with crossfit.

7:46 Kayla: I know it's not a diet, but, like, that whole kind of, like, very modern, contemporary diet and exercise culture. And there's many, many different ways to. If you can fast on alternating days, you can fast for a certain number of hours every day. That's the kind that you tend to do, right? Chris: Sort of. I mean, are you interviewing me or not? Kayla: No, I'm just asking you just a general question. Chris: I mean, I'm pretty flexible with it, but it kind of depends on the day. Some days it'll be basically, I just won't eat until dinner. But then on other days, if I feel like I need the energy because I'm going to be doing like a hard day at the gym, then I. Then I'll have food before that. But I generally skip breakfast.

8:29 Kayla: There you go. That's one pattern of if some people will just, like, skip random meals and kind of like, jump around, some people will intensely fast for a period of days and then relax for a period of days. Like, there's a diet called the five two diet, and I didn't research it because I don't want to. Chris: Good reason. Kayla: It's like five days on, two days off, that kind of thing. There's really no limit to how you can structure the pattern. The world is your oyster. Your imagination is the limit. That's all I have to say. No, it's not the end. Chris: This has been culture, just weird. Kayla: Intermittent fasting is being scientifically studied currently, but in general, the science is still kind of out on it and it is regarded as a fad diet. Kind of like how we discussed that clean eating is regarded as a fad diet. There are many claims made about if as well as many warnings. Heads up. We will get into very specific pros and cons of this particular style of fasting. Near the end of the episode, around when I'm going to interview my lovely co host, this is just a little. Dipping our toes in. This is the. No, we already have the appetizer. So what is this?

9:42 Chris: This is the main course because I'm the dessert. There you go, ladies. Kayla: Oh, God. Chris: Are we keeping that? Kayla: No. I don't know. Chris: Bonus content. Kayla: I'm not editing this. You're editing this. Chris: Some of our bonus content is going to be going onto Pornhub. Kayla: Your mother listens to this podcast. You want to tell her what you do in your spare time? Okay. Claims about intermittent fasting range from things like permanent weight loss, reducing insulin resistance, lowering the risk of cardio metabolic diseases, lowering the risk of hypertension and inflammation, to also things like, it'll help you live longer, it'll slow down wear and tear on your telomeres and et cetera.

10:23 Chris: Oh, telomeres. Kayla: We're not. I can't get into telomeres. Chris: Let's get back to epigenetics. Kayla: I can't get into telomeres. Chris: Oh. Kayla: Because that would be its own entire episode. Telomeres, what are. It's like the little ends of your DNA. Chris: Yeah. They're the shoestring ends of your DNA. Kayla: And some people think that if you can, like, make them not unravel, then you'll live forever. Chris: They naturally shorten. And there are some thoughts and potentially claims around that being related to aging. Kayla: So the claims for what intermittent fasting can do for you definitely do have some scientific footing there. But considering that the long term sustainability is unknown and the risk involved in ifing for certain populations is also unknown, it's still important to be careful and wary again, we'll get more into it a little bit more. A little bit later. And I also. Some of the claims about intermittent fasting can wade into not. Okay, I said intermittent fasting. Some of the claims about fasting in general can wade deeply into Wu territory. Deep, deep into that. Woo woo.

11:25 Chris: That's my favorite territory. Kayla: I know. It's the best territory. It's the worst territory and the best territory. So our listeners have probably already heard a lot about intermittent fasting in recent years. It's experiencing a huge growth in popularity. Chris: Oh, yeah. It's so hot right now. Kayla: It really is. It feels like it's suddenly everywhere. I get ads for it on Instagram. It runs rampant in athletic communities, such as weightlifting. Like, you freak. No, you're not, Nicole. I'm sorry. Chris: No, I am. Kayla: There's. There's good reason for it. Some people find that intermittent fasting is actually more along the lines of their natural eating patterns. I know that's the case for you. Chris: Mm. Kayla: You like to just eat a big dinner and not eat during the day, whereas, like, I cannot do that. Yeah, I have to eat little snacks.

12:07 Chris: I'm not a snacker. Kayla: Oh, my God. Chris: I much prefer to have, like, a. Like, a yemenite big, hearty meal. And I don't really care about snacking. Kayla: No, I want a small meal, and then I want to eat again, like, right after the meal, and then I want to eat again right after that. It's my favorite thing. Chris: So he is intermittent eating. Kayla: Some people, like me, find that it just. It doesn't work for them, and it's generally not recommended for people who have history of, like, eating disorder for the elderly, people with dealing with certain illnesses. So that's your fasting for health overview. We'll also be talking a lot about religious fasting. A lot of us already have experience with this. Fasting is an important part of many world religions. Muslims fast from sunrise to sunset during the month of Ramadan. In the jewish faith, there are multiple holidays that observe fasting. It can be present in many christian and catholic denominations as well. Lent. There you go. Oh, we are gonna get into some of that.

13:03 Chris: Oh, sweet. Kayla: I went ham, guys. Chris: Go Catholics. Kayla: It's found in Hinduism, in Buddhism, and more. Even in religious fasting, there are different types, ranging from abstaining from just a certain food or skipping a certain meal, or fasting for 12 hours, 24 hours more. Fasting can mean abstaining from food only, or it can include abstaining from sex or mind altering substances like alcohol and even caffeine. So a wide array there and then. Chris: Of course, sounds very ritualistic. Kayla: Well, we'll get to all of that. And the third category, our favorite category, woo fasting.

13:46 Chris: So the first category was health. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Then religious. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And now woo. Kayla: Yeah. So woo fasting, kind of an offshoot of religious fasting, meaning that it's taken the religious aspects of it, you know, asceticism, or pursuit of purity, or closer relationship to God, cleansing, focus, all of that. But it's taken a nice little woo spin on it. So. Chris: And just, I know we talk about this a lot on the show, so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant here, but just to make sure, woo is just a term that means, like, new age spiritual pseudoscience. It's kind of a quackery, all encompassing term that refers to all that stuff. Kayla: All the good stuff. So woo fasting. Examples that we'll get into later includes things like breatharianism, sungazing. I'd even argue that things like fruitarianism is in there. The whole idea of detoxing and cleansing and all of that really dovetails with woo fasting. So, as we mentioned already, Chris is going to be the person we interview for this topic, because obviously, as we said, he's included some form of intermittent fasting in his life for a few years now. And like we mentioned, it's something that just kind of better fits your natural eating style.

15:00 Chris: Yeah, I mean, that's a big reason why I started doing it. Kayla: So before we get into the specifics, we're going to go into an overview of the history of fasting. Now that we have our categories. And I will say right here that in conjunction with your mention of our Patreon last week, I actually threw up some polls on our Patreon. Chris: Oh, you threw up? I threw up. Eat food to do that. You weren't fasting. Kayla: Oh, we'll talk about throwing up later. Just wait. Oh, just wait. Chris: Oh, God. Kayla: So I threw out some polls on our Patreon because it's one of the tiers you get to answer polls. It's very cool. And I asked for some input on some of the things I should focus on in this episode.

15:46 Chris: Oh, I didn't even notice because you. Kayla: Don'T look at our Patreon. That's fine. Chris: Well, not all the time. Kayla: And I will say that I made sure to include everything that people responded to on those polls in this episode, so we will get to all of that. Chris: Well, that's cool. Thanks for the feedback and the input. Patreon Patrons, side note, before we get. Kayla: Into it, there are other categories I mentioned that we're not covering here. I'm not going to mention all of them, but I did want to make sure to mention ethical fasting, which includes things like hunger strikes. Just a little quickie definition from Wikipedia. A hunger strike is a method of nonviolent resistance or pressure in which participants fast as an act of political protest or to provoke the feelings of guilt in others, usually with the objective to achieve a specific goal, such as policy change. So, famous hunger strikers include Gandhi, Bobby Sands, the Tiananmen Square students, and it's still employed in prisons around the world today and in other places. But I just wanted to make sure people know, yes, we're aware of ethical fasting. We're not really covering that in this episode. Okay, so let's get into the history.

16:58 Chris: Oh, all right. Kayla: The rich and storied history, the hardcore history. Chris: Am I allowed to say that? Kayla: I don't know. You're gonna get sued. Chris: I don't know. Kayla: So, my research today comes from, among other things, Vice, NPR, New York Times, Britannica.com, comma, the history girls. Wikipedia, obviously. Neos, Cosmos, Target Health, LLC, cultic Studies review, volume four, number one. Instagram. Chris: There it is. Kayla: Nerd fitness, the institute. Chris: Oh, nerd fitness. Kayla: The Institute of Archaeology and more. Chris: Geez, that's a wide array. Kayla: It's a lot. Fasting, as I have learned, has basically been around for at least as long as recorded human history. Fasting is a part of the world's oldest religions, so that's Hinduism, Jainism, and Judaism. Side note, one of the only major world religions. It might be like the only major world religion to not incorporate some form of fasting and even prohibit fasting. Do you want to guess?

17:54 Chris: What? Kayla: Do you want to guess? Chris: I have no idea. Because how. I don't. What? Kayla: Zoroastrianism. Chris: Wow. Kayla: Prohibits fasting. And zoroastrianism is like a fairly old religion that's in the like pan Middle east indian area. Chris: I don't know what that part of the world is called. Like, at the time it was like babylonian. Like Mesopotamia. I mean, babylonian. Kayla: Well, it's not like it's still a major world religion. Like there's still people. Chris: People still practice or you're, I guess it may be a new. Yeah. Kayla: Yes, because, okay. Like, literally, my friend Ryan, his family is from Iran and his grandmother is from like a small, probably nameless village in like, you know, the mountains. And she was brought up practicing zoroastrianism because she wasn't like living in the major cities.

18:41 Chris: I did not know that still had a following. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So, yeah, I mean, it's ancient, ancient religion and it was basically like one of the, if not the first, it might have been the first monotheistic religion. Kayla: Oh, really? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Interesting. Well, yeah, they prohibit fasting because there's a belief that such a form of asceticism will not aid in strengthening the faithful in their struggle against evil. Chris: Yeah, they were very much about good versus evil. Kayla: So they're like, don't fast. Cause you'll be all weak. Fasting as part of spiritual practices are recorded, well, recorded in ancient greek and egyptian societies. And there's even evidence of royals fasting in ancient Samaria. So we're talking like people have been fasting in some form for at least 5000 years. Like at least.

19:28 Chris: Wow. Kayla: Think about that number. That's a huge number. Chris: That is a long time to not eat anything. Kayla: I know. They probably want a burger. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: I also found evidence of fasting in traditional african medicine, traditional chinese medicine, and in the cultures of various indigenous peoples. Chris: It's like really everywhere. It's literally everywhere except for Zoroastrianism. Yeah. Huh. I think that's maybe that's why they're still around. Cause they're like, no, don't fast. You can eat, dude. Kayla: I don't know. In ancient Egypt and India, fasting was first adopted as a form of penance or atonement. You did something bad, you were sinful, you wanted to make it right, so you fasted. I think it was generally like if you did something wrong against the deities like something spiritually wrong. Not like if you punched your brother and were like, oh, I guess I got a fast. It was like.

20:13 Chris: It was like making yourself right with the. Like with the universe versus, like, you know, I cheated on my taxes. Kayla: Right? It's like, oh, I did something that offended this deity. So now I'm going to fast to express my guilt and make amends. And this kind of paved the way for religious fasting. In later religions of Islam, Jainism, Hinduism, and then in ancient Greece, fasting. Yes. It was also viewed as purification or a penance tactic. It was more often undertaken as a preparatory activity. Which means. Chris: Preparatory? Kayla: Yes, which means it was done to prepare the body to communicate with the spiritual or supernatural. So it's like, I'm preparing to receive the messages, or it was undertaken for medical health reasons. Like, as early as ancient Greece, it was like, oh, fasting is connected to your health.

21:06 Chris: Yeah. Well, there's actually two other things that are interesting that you said there. One is that you talked about purification, and that's one of the things we mentioned last week, how food, our relationship to food often carries these moral undertones of purity. And so that seems like it's as old as, you know, the ritual of fasting as civilization itself. Kayla: Tale is oldest time song as old as rhyme. Chris: That's right. Kayla: Beauty and the beast. Chris: Okay. And then you also mentioned that it was used as preparation for, like, spiritual communion, which also is interesting because doesn't fasting sort of, like, alter your body chemistry in such a way that, like, you can, you know, like, you're. You have, like, doesn't it, like, release, like, endorphins?

21:55 Kayla: Oh, yes. You. Yes. Chris: Yeah. All right, so. So that makes sense, right? Kayla: Like, a physiological reaction in your body that some people find, like, can be a bit of a high or, like. Chris: Right. Kayla: Even just if you haven't eaten in a long time and you stand up too fast, you get the weird, like, dizzy, spinny feeling. Chris: So that seems. That makes sense then, that. That they would use that as a preparation to go into some sort of, like, altered state of consciousness. Kayla: Right. I mean, that's part of why, like, people with restrictive eating disorders. It's part of. That's part of it is that you get addicted to that feeling because it feels good in a way. Chris: Right? Kayla: And some people. This was never the case for me, but some people even find that restricting your calories, like, gives you more energy, makes you more clear headed. Like, it's a whole thing.

22:43 Chris: Well, I've done. I know you're not interviewing me. About this bit. But back before I knew that, it. Kayla: Was like, wait, hold. Because we're gonna talk about. I am gonna interview you. Chris: Okay. All right. Kayla: I'm gonna talk about it all. Chris: That's me speaking backwards to take those words back. Kayla: And that's okay. Cause we're actually gonna. I'm gonna break down a little bit more about preparatory fasting and medical fasting in ancient Greece. Cause we are really in the weeds, guys. Chris: It's my favorite place. Kayla: Preparatory fasting, like I mentioned, was part of ancient greek culture. It was really big in the mystery religions. The mystery cults, do you know what those are? Chris: I've heard of them. Kayla: They're basically, like, they're. They're. They're religious groups that were present at the time of ancient Greece that did not align with, like, the state religion.

23:26 Chris: So did they still. Kayla: Cult of Dionysus. Oh, like, who is the snake lady? Chris: I think that's Dionysus. Oh, wait, no, that's. Sorry. Dionysus is not a lady. Excuse me. Kayla: Alexander's mom. Chris: Oh, yeah, yeah. Kayla: Alexander the Great mom was in a mystery. Chris: Olympia was Alexander Washington, Alexander the Great's mom, and she was badass and, like, literally slept with snakes in her bed. But her big thing was that she was, like, a priest of the cult of Dionysus, and people thought she had. Kayla: Magical powers, and they used the word. The word cult is used not in, like, a Charles Manson ran a cult. It's just like, I don't even know really why it's used, but that's why mystery religions is also another word. Mystery cult's. Mystery religions.

24:09 Chris: Why is it considered outside. Why is it considered mystery or outside the mainstream when the deity being worshipped is part of the greek pantheon? Kayla: I don't know. I didn't get too much into that. Like, It's just a thing. I know that, like, I think it's just kind of, like, weird woo people. Like, honestly, I think it's just very similar to. It's ancient woo. Chris: Not that those crazy people believing in Dionysus. Anyway, back to worshiping Zeus, the mystery. Kayla: I think the mystery religions all had, like, an initiation process. Like, you couldn't just be in the mystery religion, like, you had to be initiated in. So it was different than, like, whatever, you know, the state religion of ancient greek gods, you had to, like, be initiated in these specific groups, I think, like, interesting, the shit that, like, Pythagoras did might have been, like, at least.

24:57 Chris: Oh, they were into some weird morality stuff. Kayla: Yeah. Like, they. It may not have been a mystery religion, but it was similar to that. Chris: Right. Kayla: Kind of thing. So in those mystery religions, fasting was often used to initiate members in as part of the initiation process so that they could be open to receiving the knowledge specific to the group. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: Or it was used to aid in receiving enlightenment by the specific deity that they worshipped. And sometimes this took the form of fasting as part of the ritual preparation for sleep that was supposed to provide dreams that gave answers to the person on a specific problem or provided divine revelation. Chris: This all sounds somewhat dope, actually. Kayla: Yeah, it does.

25:37 Chris: I'm not gonna lie. Kayla: Oh, yeah, it sounds hella dope. Philostratus. Don't know who that guy is, but he's a guy. That was important, for example, presents the view that since the soul was influenced by diet, only by frugal living, in the avoidance of meat and drink could the soul receive unconfused dreams. Chris: So he was a vegan? Kayla: Oh, we'll get to that. Chris: Oh, my God. How many things are we getting to in this episode? Holy shit. Kayla: All of it. We're getting to all of it. Chris: We're just gonna read the encyclopedia front to back. Kayla: Ancient greek philosophers and mathematicians were also into fasting, as we mentioned. Pythagoras, he had this thing where he would, like, he was into fasting. He would starve himself for 40 days at a time before, like, taking an exam, because he was like, oh, this improves my perception and my creativity. He's also, like. It makes. It improves my physical strength and my mental acuity. And he, like, told all of his followers this thing and proves his physical strength. Yes.

26:34 Chris: I don't know. Kayla: I think that probably just has to do with, like, the endorphins from starvation that we talked about. And he and his followers were most likely strict vegetarians, maybe even vegans. Chris: I feel like I've heard that. Kayla: Yeah, they were super weird because Pythagoras was on the wall when went to loving hut. Pythagoras was right. Chris: Oh, my God. That's right. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Oh, he was like an ur vegan. Yeah, that's awesome. Kayla: Yeah. This kind of fasting, the preparatory fasting, has also been observed in ancient and modern pagan traditions. Still talking about ancient Greece, let's move on to the medical fasting. Fasting was often undertaken by athletes as part of the physical training for the Olympic games.

27:20 Chris: Wow. Kayla: Yep. Like, kind of following that Pythagoras school of thought that this will make you better, this will make you sharper, stronger, faster. Chris: Sharper, stronger, faster is the motto yeah. Kayla: Of the ancient greek Olympics. Some more great thinkers were into this kind of fasting. Plato, who learned a thing or two from Socrates, believed that fasting was part of quote unquote true medicine, along with air and sun. I don't really know what that means. Like, getting air and sun. Whatever. Hip hop. Chris: Plato was a weird dude, too. Kayla: Yeah, they were all weird. Chris: Yeah, they were super weird. Kayla: They were all weird. But it's also like they were early peoples. Like, we're fucking weird now. We believe weird shit. Chris: Oh, yeah, we're hella weird. Kayla: Yeah. Calls are just weird.

28:01 Chris: Yeah. Our podcast is actually. It's about that. Kayla: Yep. Good ol Hippocrates has also been interpreted as promoting fasting not for religious or spiritual purposes, but for medical ones. Chris: Right, so you said good ol Hippocrates. He was a doctor, wasn't he? Like the. He was, like the first. I mean, that's where the hippocratic oath comes from, right? He was like one of the early, sort of like western medicine fathers of. Kayla: Yeah. And he had this to say when someone was ill, the addition of food should be much rarer since it is often useful to completely take it away while the patient can withstand it until the force of the disease reaches its maturity. If the body is cleared, the more you feed it, the more it will be harmed.

28:41 Chris: Feed a cold, starve, or fever. Kayla: That's wrong. When a patient is fed too richly, the disease is fed as well. Excess is against nature. Yeah. Feed a cold, starve a feverous. That's false. Chris: God damn it. Kayla: Yeah. You're supposed to just be properly nourished and hydrated. Chris: Good news is that. Yeah. I've literally never followed that. Kayla: Yeah. No. Me. Chris: What do you do with the rona? Do you feed the Rona or do you. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: So there's a Rona free zone. Excuse me. Kayla: I don't know. We literally just had the president go on television and say, maybe we should be injecting bleach into our bodies. So maybe. Maybe we shouldn't do that. Don't do that, guys. Don't need a tripod. Don't inject bleach. Don't sun your perineum. Don't do anything. Chris: That was for you, Paul.

29:24 Kayla: Moving on. I have even found some evidence or beliefs that ancient Greeks drew a correlation between fasting and the severity of seizures in those with. Chris: Meaning that, like, is that true? Kayla: They thought that fasting would lessen seizures, and that's something that's still being studied by scientists today. And things like intermittent fasting and the keto diet also studies those. Oh, right. Chris: Were you telling me that about keto on the show or off the show? Kayla: I think it was on the show. Chris: Okay. Okay. Kayla: Yeah. Keto, I believe, was originally developed as a treatment method for children with epilepsy. Chris: Fascinating. Kayla: I want to stress here that this historical timeline I'm trying to provide is brief and limited because the topic is so vast. And fasting has been prevalent in literally almost all cultures throughout time in world history. Like, I'm not really getting into Africa, indigenous tribes and others. And moving forward from this point, I am going to be focusing a bit more on just the western history of it, as I think that the western history of it leads more directly into our focus on modern day fasting.

30:29 Chris: Like, I think that just like all of my history textbooks in school. Kayla: I know. Sorry. Chris: I. Kayla: Sorry. Moving on from the ancient times, western fasting practices, through the medieval period, the middle Ages, the dark ages, whatever that fucking period of time in history. Chris: Dark Ages is not what we call it anymore, Kayla. Kayla: Okay, what do we call it? The dim ages? Chris: We call it, like, late antiquity, the dumb ages, the dipshit ages. No, it's. Because it's. It wasn't like. Kayla: It wasn't actually dark. I know. Yeah, but you can explain it to the listeners because you've explained it to me, and I shouldn't act like everyone knows this. Chris: Well, I mean, you basically said it. It's just that, like, there. There's always been this, or not always, but, you know, conception that after the fall of the roman empire, which, by the way, like, you know, we've assigned a date to, was also a very gradual thing.

31:18 Kayla: Right. Chris: That just Europe was just terrible for a long time, and there was a collapse of civilization, but in reality, it was much more of just like an evolution of civilization. And. And, yes, obviously, the roman empire, the western roman empire fell during that period, but the period after that wasn't necessarily dark. It was just different. And by dark, the implication is, like, things were lost and people got dumber and technology was worse and sick and all that stuff, which turns out is not really true. Kayla: Well, then through late antiquity, the middle Ages, the medieval period, that whole period of time, and then kind of, like, up through the time of, like, the Puritans, which was the 16th century fucking Puritans. I know fasting was generally tied to christian religious practices. Don't forget other major world religions, including Judaism and Islam, also including fasting practices during this time. But we're going to talk more about the other major world religions when we get to, like, the modern. We talk about modern fasting.

32:19 Chris: Okay. Because I don't know that much about christian fasting other than, like, Lent. Kayla: That's. I mean. Chris: Yeah, it was just that. Kayla: Well, okay, so medieval Lenten or lent practices were particularly stringent. So during the time of Lent, full black fasts on ash Wednesday and Good Friday were required. And that means, like, it's a full. A black fast is, like, a full fast from abstaining from all food. The rest of the days during lent meant no food, only water or. Because, like, water was kind of dangerous at the time. Watered down beer or wine. Chris: Right. Kayla: You could only have water or watered down alcohol until 03:00 p.m. Which was the hour that Jesus died.

33:02 Chris: And throughout morning drinking. Oh, man, they were partying. 03:00 p.m. You said until you could drink until 03:00 p.m. Right? Yeah. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Chris: It's, like, drunk all the time. Yeah. It's, like, on football Saturday. Kayla: Yeah. Also, during lent, it meant no animal meats or fats, no eggs and no dairy. And this was kind of a self mortification practice. Do you want to. Do you want to explain lent a little more? I put it in my notes. Since you're a catholic, lent is that. Chris: Stuff that you get in your belly button when you haven't take a shower. Kayla: No, that's lindt. I'm talking about lent. The little, like, legumes that you boil in broth and then you eat as lunch. Chris: Right, right. Tills.

33:42 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Lent, as a catholic, is 40 days of currently. I mean, so Lent always has had a theme of, like, self sacrifice, of giving something up. So, basically, the idea of lent is that, like, 40 days prior to easter, you, as a catholic are supposed to give something up. You're supposed to experience your own form of sacrifice, because that's what Jesus is about to do. So, you know, what can you do? And I I don't know. It's. It's. It's. It's interesting, right. Because, like, I think it can also be a vehicle for personal growth. I think a lot of people use. Like, I haven't really practiced lent in a long time, but, you know, when.

34:23 Kayla: I did, I was not. I was never. I was not. You weren't even Catholic? No. Chris: That is appropriation as a fuck out. Kayla: Of middle and high school, I would always do lent every year with my friends. Chris: Oh, yeah. So solidarity. That's. That's pretty cool. Kayla: Solidarity was also, like, to see if I could do it. And it was also, like, there's something rewarding about it. Chris: Yeah, there's something like. Yeah, it's like giving up screen time or giving. Or, like going to bed earlier. We always are seeking these sort of, like, self improvement things, and oftentimes it feels like self improvement things can involve giving something up. Kayla: Right. Chris: So I think that gets, like, tied into modern lent at least a lot. Kayla: I think that also gets tied in just fasting in general. Chris: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. By the way, you mentioned Ash Wednesday. So it always starts on a Wednesday because Easter is always on Sunday. So there's always, like, the same number of days, I believe.

35:12 Kayla: And then good Friday is when Jesus was crucified. Chris: Yes. And then Easter Sunday that he died and. Right. And then Easter Sunday is the day that he rises from the dead. Kayla: So there you go. Chris: Zombie Jesus. Kayla: I think it's cool that there's, like, commemorative fasting practices related to those, like, major events. Chris: Yeah. And Mardi Gras. Fat Tuesday is the day before ash Wednesday. And that's why Mardi Gras exists as such. Like a debauchery party is because you're about to go into this period of more ascetic type practice. Kayla: It's everybody's bachelor party. Chris: Yes, exactly. Kayla: But Lent isn't the only christian religious fasting time, especially back in the olden days. Friday was also considered a suitable or encouraged fasting day in some christian sects.

36:02 Chris: Not sex sects, sex. Kayla: It was a way to observe important christian events, because a lot of really important christian events happened on Fridays. I'm gonna literally read you a list. It's insane, really. Chris: What the heck? Kayla: Friday, David killed Goliath. Friday, the sons of Israel entered the promised land. Moses died on a Friday. Elijah and St. John, two separate events, were both beheaded on a Friday. Herod slaughtered 144,000 innocents on a Friday. Gabriel proclaimed to Mary that she was going to give birth to Jesus. Chris: Whoa. Kayla: On a Friday? Chris: Is it because they all just want to take care of business before the weekend? Is that why TCB? Yeah, because you don't want to be messing with that shit on a Saturday when you're off.

36:45 Kayla: I don't know, okay? I don't know. St. Peter was crucified on a Friday. Like we mentioned, Jesus was crucified on a Friday. Mary transcended on a Friday. Chris: Holy shit. Kayla: And supposedly Friday. I don't know what this is in christian mythology. Maybe you can explain it. But Friday is supposedly when Enoch and Elijah will battle the Antichrist, which sounds dope. Chris: Yeah, I know a hell of a lot about that. Kayla: Well, anyway, it's gonna happen on a Friday. Chris: Okay. Yeah, that sounds like a. That sounds like a left behind series type of thing, which I don't know too much. I tried reading one of those books, and I couldn't get through, like, the first couple pages. It was. It was really bad. Kayla: It wasn't for you. Chris: It was bad. Kayla: So that's another example of christian fasting. Puritans also undertook a lot of fasting. Cause they hated fun.

37:33 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Poor Puritans. Chris: Fucking Puritans. Kayla: They called fasting days. And they fasted from sundown to sundown, solemn days of humiliation. And this generally coincided humiliation? Yeah. Not like. But, like, you know, being. Having humility. Chris: Oh, interesting. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: I've never heard humiliation used that way. Maybe it's, like, more archaic use. Kayla: Yeah, yeah. I think it's used like that in, like, religious stuff. Chris: It's like apologetics. Kayla: Yeah. Or it's like talking about, like, when you're talking about self mortification, it's like, along with that. So these fasting days, like, were called solemn days of humiliation, and they generally coincided with praying for God's help. So, like, something bad happened. You know, a bunch of people got sick. There were poor harvests, even if there were, like, global tensions. And people would go, okay, it's time for a fasting day. We're gonna pray to God. You would also be expected to abstain from doing your daily work. And sometimes. So you would, like. Basically, you would fast starting at sundown the next day, you would, like, all go to church and, like, have your church service, and you're supposed to go home and basically, like, do praying and introspection and continuing to abstain from food until sundown again.

38:47 Kayla: And sometimes puritan communities would even follow these fasting days with feasting days or days of Thanksgiving. Chris: Mmm. Fasting and feasting. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Is that on purpose? That way. Kayla: The literal article that I read was, like, puritan fasting and feasting or something like that. Yeah. So widespread christian based fasting began falling out of favor in the west for. I mean, there's a couple different reasons. It largely started because of the enlightenment, like, during the enlightenment in the 17th and 18th centuries, and it's kind of persisted through modern times with all of the different, like, reformations of the church and how there's kind of been, like, an overall relaxing of some of the really strictest rules, especially with, like, I don't really know. Especially with, like, Protestantism. What is it where you go to, like, a cool church. So there's, like, catholic church, and that's, like, that. But then there's like, we're a cool church and we sing with a guitar. You know what I mean? What's that?

39:46 Chris: I mean, some, I think it depends. Some protestant churches are like that. Some aren't. Kayla: Like the more like, we're a hip church. Chris: I think some catholic churches are hip and have guitars too. Kayla: I think we know what I mean. What's the ones that are like, praying your closet? You don't have to, I don't know. Not Catholics. Chris: Not Catholics as Protestants. Kayla: And they're the ones who are like, chill out. But they're not necessarily chill. It's just like these practices are not necess. They're very like, solemn, ancient practices are not necessarily the, like, the thing that they focus on. Chris: Right. Are you sure this doesn't also have something to do with, like, modern, like, mass consumption, capitalism?

40:28 Kayla: Probably. I didn't get into that angle, but. Chris: Yeah, probably, you know, you don't want people like, spending one 7th of their week not buying your McDonald's. Kayla: I love that I didn't have to bring this up. This just goes to show that me trying to brainwash you into believing capitalism as a cult has taken. You are in my cult. Chris: Now get the fuck out of here. Kayla: You're in my cult. Chris: I can like capitalism and also critique it. Kayla: So can I. Chris: And we're done. Kayla: Okay. There is still fasting in the Christian west. It is generally more flexible in, you know, what that term means. So, like, lent can be considered a fast, like giving up the. Whatever. Whatever you want to give up can be considered a fast or eating fish on Fridays during that time can be considered a fast. I asked you, I have in my notes, Cece, what is the enlightenment?

41:16 Chris: Do I have to explain the enlightenment just briefly? The enlightenment was just that period in history when I. Kayla: It's just there was a period of philosophy and academia at the time that kind of got really into like non religious thinking in a way. Chris: Yeah. The enlightenment was. Was all about intellectual man kaising. No, I said mankind using. Kayla: Oh, I heard mankind. Chris: The enlightenment was. Was all about civilization, at least western civilization becoming more interested in things like science and philosophy and, you know, renaissance type stuff.

41:58 Kayla: Right. Chris: I'm not explaining it good. Kayla: No, that's, that's all we need was people just started thinking more about scholarly before enlightenment and philosophical stuff. Chris: No, science after enlightenment. Yay. Science. Kayla: There you go. Chris: Boo. Science. Kayla: It's worth noting. Thank you for that explanation. I appreciate it. Chris: Yeah, it was great. Kayla: It's worth noting that while christian based fasting fell out of favor in the west. It did persist somewhat through western esotericism and occultism, which we've talked about before. So that kind of, you know, that whole movement began in like the 18th century and it still persists through modern times. There's still esotericists and occultists. Western esotericism drew a lot from, you know, quote unquote, eastern religions, particularly religions that were religious practices found in the indian subcontinent, as well as it drew from paganism and other practices. So they drew their fasting practices from those already existing sources.

42:56 Chris: What about from lemuria? Kayla: You'll have to ask the occultists. Okay, we'll get to that. Also, even Aleister Crowley sometimes utilized the practice and it was often seen in western esotericism as both a purification practice and a preparatory practice. Chris: And who was Aleister Crowley? Kayla: He was like one of the most well known western occultists. We talked about him in the primes. We might have talked about him at the primes. We might have also talked about him in the loving. No, in the Tulpas episode. I think we talked about him in the Tulpas episode. Chris: I see. Kayla: Because we talked about how there was the whole western occultist version of Tulpa.

43:37 Chris: Right? Kayla: So he's just like one of the main western occultist guys. And he's got a cool name. So there's our brief history of fasting. Thoughts, feelings, reactions. Chris: Fasting is a thing that has happened throughout history. Kayla: It's true. Chris: So those are my thoughts. Kayla: Those are good thoughts. Chris: No, thank you for walking me through that historical journey. Kayla: You're welcome. Chris: Of fasting. Kayla: Let's talk about modern day fasting then. So as I mentioned a million times before, fasting is a part of almost all major world religions and cultures. Have I said that already? Chris: Except for zoroastrianism. Kayla: Except for them crazy kids. I do want to get a little more in depth on some of these. I won't go too far. As we have learned, my personal experience with religion is extremely limited. And I don't really have any modern approaches to fasting from a religious lens. But we're going to talk a little bit about Islam, Hindu Buddhism, Judaism, and then.

44:35 Chris: Oh, just a little bit. Okay. Kayla: We'll touch a little bit on some like eastern christian practices because it's real interesting. So Islam, it is stated in the Quran that Allah says, quote, o you who believe fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may develop God consciousness. And that's Quran 2183. Have you ever heard the term proscribed, it's like the opposite of proscribed. It's like you proscribe red meat. Meaning don't eat red meat. Chris: Oh yeah. Interesting. Kayla: I'd never heard of that until I started doing the research for this. And somewhere proscribed came up and I was like what is that, man?

45:19 Chris: Between that and fasting and feasting, you just throw a letter e and you just take the meaning of a word and oppositeify it. Kayla: Single thought. Chris: Thanks E. This episode has been brought to you by the letter e. Oh. Kayla: God, losing our minds. Chris: Day 30 of quarantine. Kayla: So okay, going off of that passage from the Quran, let's talk about fasting. In Islam, fasting is undertaken to strengthen one's self control over your appetite, over lust over other desires like that, and also to increase your communion relationship to God. And then it also allows people to connect to and sympathize with how the poor and hungry feel. So kind of has like a three pronged purpose which I thought was really interesting and cool. And like oftentimes in Islam fasting can go along with like doing charity works and being of service and that kind of thing. Because again it's like, oh, this puts you in touch with interesting what you, what people don't have right. In Islam it's generally obligatorily observed fasting during the month of Ramadan, which is a commemoration of Muhammad's first revelation.

46:29 Kayla: And it can also be obligatorily observed when you make an oath. So if you go like dear God, if XYZ happens, I will fast for three days for you. And then like if you do that. Chris: And you, oh, so you like make a deal and you get the fast. Fasting is the currency you gotta fast encourage. It's pretty tight. Kayla: It is encouraged but not obligatory. Days are also present throughout the year for fasting. And there's also days where fasting is forbidden, like on Id al Fatira, which is the day that marks the end of Ramadan. So you can't fast on that day. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: Fasting for Muslims generally consists of abstaining from eating, drinking and sex during the observed fast. Muslims generally fast from sunup to sundown, meaning there is a pre dawn meal before the morning prayer and then the fast is broken before an evening prayer with like a little snack. And then you eat a meal after that.

47:18 Chris: So they break their fast at night, which means they have breakfast for dinner. Kayla: They do. Chris: See what I did there? Kayla: No, I don't. Chris: Yeah, that's for you. Kayla: It's also should be noted that Islam has other dietary laws and practices such as halal, which forbids the eating of certain things. And that's something that's also present in a lot of world religions, is the rules around what you can and cannot eat, which I think kind of ties into the. The fasting thing. So that's our little touch on Islam. Buddhism is a little different. There's actually a variety of approaches to fasting in Buddhism, and this is because the Buddha, like, actual Buddha, is believed to have fasted to an extreme degree during a period of asceticism. Like, you see statues of him, and he looks like a skeleton because he fasted so much. And this happened before he reached enlightenment, and he only had his quote unquote great awakening once he abandoned the practice of fasting.

48:20 Chris: Interesting. Kayla: He's actually believed to. Chris: So he, like, got super, like, emaciated from fasting, and then he, like, what? Just, like, had a bunch of taco Bell, and then that was the thing that. Kayla: Yeah, good joke. Good job. What did he get at Taco Bell? What did the Buddha order from Taco Bell? Chris: I don't know. Probably chalupas. If he knew it was good for him, I mean. Kayla: Yeah. What about gorditas? Chris: Yeah. Wait, which is the one that gets deep fried? That's the one that you want? Kayla: I think both. Chris: No, one is the one is just the, like. Just like, a thick. I think that the chalupa is the one that gets deep fried. Right? Yeah, that's what you want to get. Kayla: All right, you heard of here first Buddha. Go get it.

49:00 Chris: Or he maybe did the Doritos locos tacos, which I know only got invented, like, a few years ago, but, yeah, you know, I'm sure he transcends time. Kayla: Okay, going back to the reality of this mythology, he's actually. The Buddha is actually also believed to have criticized the practice of extreme fasting. Chris: But he did it. Kayla: Yes, because he. Chris: Dude, what a hypocrite. Kayla: Well, he only achieved enlightenment after he abandoned that practice. It wasn't. He didn't achieve enlightenment because he had done the practice. It was because he stopped the practice. Chris: Okay, but still, because the. Kayla: The middle path, like, the whole. The middle path, which is, like, the way towards nirvana, towards enlightenment and Buddhism, that middle path refers to avoiding the extremes of overindulgence and self indulgence and self mortification.

49:46 Chris: Fair, but did he know that immediately, or did he have to go on his own journey to discover that? Kayla: No, but then he's the one who. Chris: Maybe these other religions. Kayla: Here's the way. This is not correct. Criticism is not necessarily like, something can. Chris: Only be learned via experience. Kayla: Okay, cool. You go tell all these people. Chris: I'm just saying that I'm wiser than the Buddha. That's all I'm saying. Kayla: I'm gonna cut all of this. In general, in Buddhism, fasting is undertaken only to aid meditation practice, and many monastic Buddhists partake in a modified fast for this reason. So, like, they'll sometimes not eat after noon. But it's not really because, like, I need to achieve fast. It's like, no, I just. This is how I am. I'm gonna go meditate now. I support it by not taking time to eat. It's something that can. Because of that thing that can happen as a result of lengthy meditation sessions. So if you are meditating for a long time, naturally you're going to be fasting. And again, like Islam, there are other dietary restrictions present in Buddhism. Most Buddhists are vegan or vegetarian, as we talked a little bit about in the 11th.

50:58 Kayla: Okay, so Hinduism, like Buddhism, there are a variety of approaches to fasting and Hinduism, and in general, it's not a necessary religious practice, but it is often undertaken as a spiritual preparatory act, so purifying the mind and body for connection to the spiritual. Some Hindus fast on specific days, honoring specific deities, but these fasts generally allow for food, albeit extremely limited food. Again, fasting can also be a byproduct of lengthy periods of meditation. And as many of us know, Gandhi, who is very famous, he kind of had a little bit of, like, an eclectic background when it comes to religion. Like, he was definitely influenced by Christianity and other religions, but he comes from a hindu background, and we know that he fasted for, like, political and social purposes.

51:46 Chris: Ethical fasting. Kayla: Ethical fasting. He did undertake a lot of that. And again, Hindus generally follow a vegetarian or vegan diet, or a diet that only includes meat, animal products in which the animal suffered minimal trauma. There is also, for some people who practice Hinduism, there's an extreme renunciate stage in your life. So there's, like, various stages that you go through in your life, and there's this extreme renunciate stage where you avoid preparing your own food. You rely solely on, like, donations from begging or just donation, like charity. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: Or you eat wild fruit to do minimal harm to living things.

52:27 Chris: I see. Interesting. So do they only eat fruit that's fallen onto the ground type thing? Kayla: I don't know if it's that far, but it's fruit that's harvested from wild trees or whatever. Chris: Gotcha. Kayla: Judaism. I think a lot of us know that Judaism also incorporates fasting in some of their major religions. Yom Kippur is often known as a day of fasting. Why are you making that fast? Chris: Right. Because I wasn't sure. You said, a lot of us know, and I was like, do I? I don't know. Kayla: Yeah. So Yom Kippur is, like, one of the major ones. And then there's a lot of other jewish holidays where fasting can be incorporated. But again, it really depends on your level of practicing. You know, how. I don't know if devout's the right word, but how devout you are, even what part of the world that you're from. There's a lot of different. It's not the right word. There's a lot of different opportunities to fast in the jewish faith. I talked specifically to my friend Michael to kind of get his perspective. He's a jewish person who observes Yom Kippur as one of the major holidays. And so I asked for his specific experience with that. So I'll read you some of our chat. So for him, on Yom Kippur, the fast is.

53:39 Kayla: Starts from the beginning of sundown on the day before, and then ends at sundown the following day. He does drink water. Chris: There are a lot of these fasts. Seem like they involve sundown, sunup. That's really interesting. Kayla: Yeah, yeah. I like that he does drink water. He did say that for some very devout people, like hardcore rabbis, even, that is water mono. He literally says, how do they pee? They don't. I don't know. He literally says that some people, he specifically calls out hardcore rabbis will spit out saliva, won't swallow their own saliva. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: It's about, like, not taking anything in.

54:20 Chris: Wow. Kayla: So I also asked him, you know, what's the general spiritual goal of fasting on Yom Kippur? And his answer was kind of twofold. It was like, you know, it is about repentance and prostration before God in the face of your own death. Yom Kippur is a day when people get written to the book of life. So it's kind of like this day of atonement. And for him personally, he also does it for the spiritual elevation aspect of it. So, like, having that high of not eating and praying and being like. He spends the entire day at the temple. So being with other people, undertaking the same activity, reflecting, singing, kind of gives this crazy religious experience. Chris: Right. Kayla: He said that his rabbi talks about how Judaism is ancient technology that gets us closer to ourselves at its best. That's exactly it. It's this old, he says, old ass cult with lots of good ideas. I just love that idea of the tools of this religion are, quote unquote, ancient technology to help you get closer to yourself.

55:20 Chris: Yeah. Yeah. That's a very cool way of describing it. Very interesting, evocative way of describing it. Kayla: Right. He said that on Yom Kippur, you're also supposed to abstain from sex, which is actually normally okay, even, like, you're even encouraged to have sex on the Shabbat in some groups. So this is just one person's experience with fasting on Yom Kippur. But I thought it was, you know, good to have an actual specific point of view on this. So that's kind of. Chris: We like talking to experts on culture. Just weird. Kayla: Hear that, Michael? You're an expert. So that's our little tiptoe. Not deep dive, tip dive. Chris: Tip dive. Just the tip. Kayla: Just the tip into waiting, fasting, and we waded into fasting and Judaism. And let's now talk about.

56:06 Chris: We only have, like, another 57 religions to cover, right? Kayla: No, we're on our last one. We're gonna talk about modern christian catholic fasting. How we said, you know, I said earlier that it's evolved less strict nowadays. I talked to another friend who I talked to my friend Alexa, and she says that catholic fasting, it's a lot more relaxed than other, the other religions that we've mentioned. Quote, it's two small meals and one large one, which is basically how a lot of people already eat. And this is undertaken on Ash Wednesday, the start of Lent, as we talked about, and then Good Friday. And those are the only fasting days required in Catholicism. And then you're supposed to go meatless on those Fridays. But fasting is not required in Lent.

56:47 Chris: Right. Kayla: Unless you are part of one of the eastern christian churches, which I can't get too much in. Can't get too much into it here, because that's an entirely other topic. But it's so fascinating how there are. There's, like, western Christianity and then eastern Christianity. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And it's like the Vatican is like the splitting point. Chris: Yeah. So remember were talking just, like, 30 minutes ago about the fall of the Roman Empire? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: That's why that happened, because the roman empire was christian at the time. Kayla: Right. Chris: And when the western roman empire fell, I mean, actually, one of the ways I like of actually looking at that is that the western roman political entity fell, but the religious entity kept going, which was the Catholic Church. It was. The Catholic Church could be viewed as like a continuation, almost, of the power of the western roman empire for the next, whatever, thousand years. The eastern roman empire never fell until, like, 13 something, and that was the seat of power of the eastern version of Christianity. And they never recognized the pope as being the representative of God on earth and yada.

58:02 Kayla: So they're basically out of step with what the Vatican decrees. Chris: Right. Kayla: So in eastern. Eastern christian religions and, like, Eastern Orthodoxy and that kind of thing, fasting from, like, the medieval times style is still observed. So, like, the very intense, like, black fasts and not eating until three. And that kind of thing is still practiced in some of those eastern christian religions, which I thought was really fascinating. Chris: That is interesting. And you have like. Yeah, so that's like, Greek Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox Church. I forget whether the one from Seinfeld is real or not, or the Latvian Orthodox Church. Kayla: Actually, I don't know. I think I looked it up, but I think it's not.

58:43 Chris: George was trying to date someone and she was Latvian Orthodox, and they couldn't date unless he converted. So he converted because that's what George and or Larry David would do in that situation. Kayla: I just want touch on this briefly because, again, I might do a traffic on it later, but there's actually, like, a resurgence. Not even a resurgence, but, like, there's a new trend in dieting where it's like, there's these Bible inspired diets and, like, fitness things that are catching on. Do you remember when what's his name, Chris Pratt, was like, I'm doing the Daniel diet. And it was this whole, like, very hardcore fasting diet that was like, that had religious.

59:23 Chris: I don't remember that because I'm not like a big Chris Pratt, like, fanboy necessarily, but he's very. Kayla: He's very christian. Like, he belongs to Hillsong church. Like, it's a very big thing in his life. And I don't. A year ago, he went on instagram and he talked about how he was doing the Daniel fast. And it's a 21 day program. I don't even know. Thing where you fast and pray for 21 days. Chris: And it's why Daniel. Kayla: It takes its name from. It takes its name from the Old Testament prophet Daniel. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Kayla: No, not just like a random guy named Daniel. I know from the Old Testament. Chris: This just like. Is this some cult leader Daniel? Kayla: No. And in that there's some foods are eaten, other foods are restricted. So it's not like a full fast. But there is that fasting element. And it's just one of, like, many current Bible related diet things, which we'll get into that on a different episode.

1:00:22 Chris: We'll get to that. Just not today. Kayla: Crossfit kind of ties into that. It's a whole thing. But I just wanted to point out that there are current christian fasts, and, like, this, like, the Daniel diet and the Chris Pratt style of Christianity is more aligned with what I was talking about earlier of the, like, we're going. Chris: To church in a chill, bros going to church, playing a guitar. Kayla: You know how so many breweries are, like, in, like, a storage unit? Yeah, it's like those churches. I'm a cool guy playing a guitar, and we got cool lights, that kind of thing. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Hillsong. It's important to note that in some of these fasts we've talked about, where they're, like, obligatory, quote unquote. Especially in Islam, it is not necessary to fast if there are mitigating circumstances. So if you have a. I was.

1:01:06 Chris: Wondering that actually at the time. Kayla: If you have a physical or psychological illness, if you are traveling, you are pregnant or nursing, there's a variety of reasons why it's actually considered not proper or not properly in line with the purpose of the fast. To fast. And, like, you'll often see around some. Chris: Really good Mac and cheese that's available to you. Kayla: I don't like jokes like that about people's religion. Chris: Maybe my religion is the Mac and cheese religion, Kayla, so I don't like you making jokes about my religion. Kayla: You do like to make that Mac and cheese? Chris: I do. Kayla: And it's my deity you'll often see, especially around Ramadan, since it is such a prolonged and high profile religious fast. There will be a lot of articles being shared about, like, hey, it's okay if you can't fast, because people with eating disorders should not fast. And it is actually in line with the scripture to not participate in the fast if it is going to be damaging for you.

1:02:03 Chris: That's interesting and good. Kayla: Wanted to point that out. Now on to the woo ooo ooh. Let's kick it off. Let's just kick it right on off with our pals, the breatharians, and the sun gazers. All right, we mentioned these guys up top. Don't want to get too into it because we're definitely doing an episode on them at some point. But breatharianism or ineria, it is the belief in the deadly pseudoscientific idea that food and sometimes water are not necessary for human beings to live. This idea is extrapolated from various occult ideas that bastardize Hinduism.

1:02:46 Chris: Is that even pseudoscientific or is that just bullshit? Kayla: There is pseudo scientific, because. Let me just keep going. Chris: Blah, blah, quantum. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Breatharians believe a person only needs prana, or the quote unquote vital life force found in Hindu. It's also influenced by very out there interpretations of the book of Genesis and Christianity. Chris: Really? Kayla: Yeah. Quote, God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living entity. So it's like, passages like that, people go, ooh, breatharianism. And there's also, like, some pseudoscientific, like, nitrogen carbon arguments about it. Chris: Right. Kayla: Yeah. So it does get pseudoscientific and not just flat out spiritual. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: We'll get a little bit more into them a little bit later. Sungazers are similar to breatharians, but instead of relying on prana, they rely on looking directly into the goddamn sun for sunset.

1:03:38 Chris: Oh, okay. That was like. So is trump one of those? Kayla: That's why he looked at the eclipse. Yes. No, because proper sun gazing, you gaze at the sun at dawn and dusk, and like a plant, you'll do photosynthesis, and you'll just be a. Okay. You'll be good. Don't need to eat. Don't do nothing. Chris: It's all that chlorophyll. Kayla: It is worth pointing out. I just learned this. This practice was developed by an early 19 hundreds ophthalmologists as a debunked form of therapy to treat nearsightedness. Chris: Wait, so he literally was like, got. Kayla: To stare at the sun, and people, like, burned their eyes out trying to treat nearsightedness. Chris: But then where does the, like, you also don't need to eat part come in?

1:04:22 Kayla: That's like modern day woo. There's lead in the water. People need to. Chris: Okay, so this 19th century guy was like, if you want to fix your eyes, you should stare at the sun. Had nothing to do with eating or anything. And it's just later on, people are like, you know what? The sun is giving me energy. It gives plants energy. So I can do that too. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Now, as we've mentioned, these are just two examples. Fasting is present in a lot of wu. Chris: Oh, by the way, if you do that, if you do decide to become a sungazer, just make sure that you put at least SPF 15 on your. Kayla: Eyeballs, directly on your retinas. Chris: Yeah.

1:05:03 Kayla: I looked up a lot of topics that we've actually covered on this podcast already to see if fasting was a part of it. You know, along with pseudoscientific medical treatments, one teal swan recommends fasting to open your crown chakra. Chris: Geez. And I recommend intermittent fasting. Or is it like, no, she. Weirdo fasting. Kayla: She. Actually. Her thing about fasting is, like, figure out the kind of fasting that works best for you, but it'll open your crown chakra. Chris: But that's what I did. Kayla: Huh. Chris: Well, you're gonna get sewn into a corpse, I guess. I'm a teal swan initiate. Kayla: You mentioned Lemuria before. Chris: I did. It's one of my favorite places. Kayla: Well, funny you should mention lemuria, because Romtha recommends fasting to create quote unquote miracles.

1:05:46 Chris: Oh, I found good old Romtha. Kayla: I found a lot. Chris: I feel like Ramtha's, like, an old friend of the show, even though she's. Kayla: That friend that you really don't want to be friends with anymore, but you don't know how to break up with. She's gotten real weird. Chris: And you're just like, romph is back. Oh, okay. We know you. You fast, too. Okay. All right. Kayla: Pat, Pat. I found a lot of fasting advice running alongside herbalife advice. Chris: Oh, hell, yeah. Kayla: Like, a lot of intermittent. Chris: Hell, yeah. Get that MlM up in here. Kayla: One Ben lynch of empty Jafar. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Is a. Chris: This is, like, the greatest hits. Kayla: He's a big proponent of intermittent fasting. Huge. Chris: Really huge. Shit. Kayla: I found articles about quacks, but does he say it's.

1:06:28 Chris: Cause it's like. It affects your MTHFR genetics or it's. Kayla: Just kind of all tied up in that Silicon Valley, like Tony Robbins. Like, self improvement. Intermittent fast telomeres. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Mt. Jafar. Get some blood from a baby and you like that whole thing. Chris: Okay, well, that really. Kayla: I really wish everybody was doing there. Chris: Yeah, I. I wish. I don't wish that on my worst enemy. Really? You were doing a very strange dance. Kayla: Yeah, sorry, I. Chris: This is why we need to start recording on YouTube, so people can see me do this. Holy shit. Kayla: I look like the witch from Snow White when the evil queen becomes that old witch, and she's like, yeah, but.

1:07:09 Chris: Like, an NPC version. Because, like, you were just doing the same thing over and over. Kayla: She doesn't. She, like, walks up the hill. I'm her. I found articles about quacks recommending 40 day water fasts on Doctor Gorski's science based medicine. Chris: Ooh. Kayla: And just, like, think about the Amanda chantal bacons and the Gwyneth Paltrows of the world that recommend cleanses, juice cleanses, water cleanses, fasting as health practices. It's real, woo. Yeah, but it gets real. It gets real dark. It gets way darker than this. Chris: Oh, no, I read woo tends to. Kayla: Do that huge content warning for eating disorder stuff. In the following section, I read a fascinating study that appeared in cultic studies review, volume four, number one, which, if you'll remember from your episode, I think they're tied to, like, the anti cult movement.

1:08:00 Chris: Yeah, I think so. Kayla: So, little bit of a grain of salt. This particular paper, I felt, was very well written and did not verge on that kind of like anti cult stuff. Chris: Well, okay, hold on. But like, a lot of the anti cult movement, I think is doing good work, right? I think there's just parts of it that are questionable. Kayla: This did not feel questionable to me, but again, because it is part of that movement where there is some questionable stuff, I would just say, you know, take grain of salt, add a little bit of grain of salt. But it was I, this, oh, I. Chris: Can'T, because I'm fasting. Kayla: Can't have salt. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So this paper was written by Jesse Micla. I'm sorry if I pronounced your name incorrectly. From the University of Alberta Department of Sociology. And it's titled imposed anorexia, a model of dietary restriction in four ideological groups. And I didn't actually find this paper doing research for my topic. It's for a pilot I was writing, and I literally tried to talk to you about this, and you were like, no, no, save it for the podcast. So now I get to talk to you about it. I'm very excited.

1:09:05 Chris: Thank God. Kayla: So let me read the abstract for this paper. This article develops a model of quote unquote imposed anorexia within new religious movements. In particular, I argue for a threefold model of imposed anorexia, directly imposed, mediated, and doctrinally accepted. I developed this model by analyzing the dietary habits and restrictions of four new religious church, universal and triumphant, the disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, breatharianism, and the great white brotherhood. Specifically, I conceptualize imposed anorexia as a form of control that ideological leaders hold over their quote unquote, surrogate bodies, which are those of their followers.

1:09:46 Chris: Holy shit. Okay, so this is a paper that is discussing these methodologies. The paper isn't itself advocating for imposed anorexia. Kayla: No, no. This paper is being like, here's how this idea of quote unquote imposed anorexia is present in new religious movements. Chris: Interesting, interesting. Kayla: So basically, the writer goes on to discuss for new religious movements that use extreme dietary restrictions as a form of control over the minds and bodies of their followers. And the claim is that this is similar to the way that a person with anorexia will use food restriction to control their own minds and bodies. I do feel like that's a little bit of, like, a broad conclusion, but it is very clear that caloric restriction has been used in a number of new religious movements to control the members.

1:10:35 Chris: Right, right. And, I mean, I guess, yeah, I can see where that would be controlling if. I mean, you're probably not thinking straight. And having that much control over, like, a basic bodily function is sort of like, well, if they're controlling that, if they. If they're telling you what to. What to eat and what not to eat, then I guess I should listen to them about pretty much anything. Kayla: Yup. This gets really dark. So the threefold model that she mentions covers directly imposed, which means a leader of a physical commune decreeing and exerting control over what food is available to the people living on the commune. So it's like you have direct contact with this leader, and they say, here is what you eat, here is what you don't eat. I am in control of this.

1:11:21 Chris: Got it. Kayla: So that's the first one. Then there's mediated, in which leaders utilize middlemen to control the food available to followers. And then there's doctrinally accepted where dietary restrictions are demanded by a group doctrine rather than physically imposed by a person. I'll get into some examples. Her example of directly imposed comes from the disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, which was a new religious movement in Minnesota. That is terrifying. And we won't do them on this podcast because they're definitely a cult. So leader Rama Behara imposed periods of intense food restrictions, followed by mass enforced binges. Food restrictions included full fasts for three days or even up to a week. And if members fainted due to this, it was called a demonic attack.

1:12:11 Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: After fasting all week, Ramabahra would then serve breakfast, lunch, and dinner to his followers all at once and decree that they must ingest every morsel that was given to them. The food was generally east indian cuisine cooked by him, and one follower described it as quart sized bowls of soup accompanied by a full loaf of bread. Chris: Holy shit. Kayla: And naturally, many people trigger warning. Vomit threw up because of this. Chris: This sounds like something they would have done on jackass. Kayla: Yeah. And then Rama Behara would force the follower to eat their own vomit. Chris: So. Yeah. Okay, so jackass. Kayla: Yeah. Sometimes the food he served would be rotten. Like, he would.

1:12:54 Chris: Ew. What? I guess you already answered this. Control. Kayla: Yeah. He would cook food up one weekend, leave it sitting out all week unrefrigerated, and then serve it at the binge. Chris: People just do weird things to control other people's man. Holy shit. Kayla: Followers naturally lost massive amounts of weight. Some of them plunged, like, well into the area of being, quote unquote, underweight. Like, trigger warning. Gonna talk about some weight here. But there was one man who was like, I think he said he was, like, six'five, and he weighed, like, 150 pounds, which is very, very low weight. Chris: Right. Kayla: But of course. Chris: Yeah. Holy shit.

1:13:34 Kayla: Liter Rama Behara got to eat whatever he wanted. Like a fucking walk in fridge. Chris: Yeah, naturally. Kayla: Yeah. So that's an example of directly imposed anorexia. Chris: That's. Oh, man, that's just so crazy. Kayla: Yeah. Insane. So an example of mediated imposed anorexia is the great white brotherhood, which, again, we will not do because it is a cult. Chris: Well, I did creativity. Kayla: I mean, I did not look too much into it because I was like, oh, no, this is doyphenately a cult. This australian woman named Anne Hamilton Byrne led this group, and she also adopted a bunch of kids that she intended to groom as, quote unquote, inheritors of the earth. But she almost never saw the kids. She was gone from Australia for six months of the year, and then even when she was in Australia, she would only see these kids on the weekends.

1:14:20 Chris: What was she doing for civil. Kayla: I don't fucking know. Being racist, probably, since she never saw her kids. She had other. She had, like, the group. Members of the group that she led called aunties care for the kids. Chris: And she. That's a creepy title. Kayla: And she directed them to implement her orders. So these poor kids were forced to abide by this woman's obsession with body image and weight. Like, she was obsessed with body image and weight. And so the aunties weighed these kids every single day. Sometimes the kids would. Chris: It's like a movie. It's like a movie villain. Kayla: Like, sometimes the kids would, like, make themselves throw up before weighins. Like, literally, just so that they.

1:15:01 Chris: Oh, my God, dude, it's horrible. Kayla: Child abuse. I should have trigger warning it. And so they would. So the aunties would weigh them. They would then pass that information along to Ann, who would prescribe more and more restrictive diets on the kids, even starving 112 year old child down to the weight of a five year old. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: So along with the restriction went fasting and water. All of that is horrible. The kids were eventually taken by child protective services and spoken out about this. Chris: I was going to ask, have survived. Kayla: I think they survived. Chris: That person deserves the 9th level of hell. Kayla: Yep. So that's an example of mediated imposed anorexia, having somebody else do your dirty work. And then the last example is doctrinally accepted. And that's, as we mentioned, the example she used for this one is none other than our friend breatharianism.

1:15:52 Chris: Sweet. I'm glad they keep coming up. Kayla: Me too. Chris: They're hilarious. Me too. Kayla: I know. She argues that there's not really a commune or, like, a real agreed upon leader or mediators for this new religious movement. Instead, everyone's just got access to the info on the Internet and can follow the info that's presented there as doctrine. Chris: Right. It's a bunch of people lying to each other on the Internet about not eating things. Kayla: And the only thing you need to do to be a breatharian is to just follow the doctrine and not eat. There's a lot of talk about control over one's own body, and there are many prominent followers in the doctrine that, like, help publicize it. A lot of those de facto leaders get caught eating food at certain points because you have to eat food. So that's just breatharianism is kind of like the poster child for, like, doctrinally accepted, imposed anorexia.

1:16:38 Chris: Got it. Kayla: And like you said at the beginning, like, controlling somebody's food in this way, it allows you to have a lot of control over them and their lives. Chris: Right. Kayla: And I would make the argument that we kind of see a little bit of that in our culture today, just with diet culture in general. Oh, especially zooming back, especially with how diet culture relates to women. Chris: Mm. Kayla: This is not the episode about that. But there, you said that a lot. I know, because this literally, I'm just doing the history of everything. Why did I do this? Chris: I don't know. Kayla: It's terrible. There are a lot of, like, prominent schools of thought and, like, well written articles and all that shit about how, like, diets are used in culture today to keep people, especially women, in their place with little emotional energy to kind of, like, fight for liberation. It's like a way to keep people in these boxes, particularly women, and, like, strip political power, because it's like, this is the only way you'll be taken seriously as a person is if you fit into these boxing, and then you just don't even have the, like.

1:17:44 Chris: Did you say boxing? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: That's great. Kayla: I learned that from watching you. So I would make that argument that diet culture kind of. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Takes a page out of this book. Chris: So bottom line, should I or should I not eat chalupas? Cause that's the main thing I'm concerned about. Kayla: Eat the chalupa. Just don't throw it up and then eat it again. Chris: Don't throw up and eat the chalupa again. Okay. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay, that's fine. Kayla: So. Okay. Talked about religious fasting in the modern day. Talked about, woo. Fasting in the modern day. Let's talk about fasting for health in the modern day. Various forms of fasting are a part of many modern day diet for health practices, with the aforementioned intermittent fasting being one of the most popular therapeutic. Intermittent fasts have been nichely used for. Quote. Is nichely a word?

1:18:38 Chris: I mean, I knew what you meant. Yeah, it doesn't sound like a word. Kayla: Though, but you know what I mean. Therapeutic intermittent fasts have been nichely used for the quote unquote treatment of quote unquote obesity since about 1915. And then there was like a reemergence in the sixties and seventies after new reports came out about the efficacy of fasting. And then those early reports were picked up by magazines and the general public. And it's been a little bit of an arms race since then between doctors trying to study the health effects of fasting and the public undertaking a variety of fasts without medical supervision. Chris: Mmm. That's kind of what I'm doing right now. Kayla: Mmm. Yeah. Chris: I mean, I don't think I've actually mentioned my if habits to any of my doctors now that you mentioned this.

1:19:23 Kayla: Really? Chris: I don't think so. It's probably something I should mention. Kayla: Yeah. Another restrictive diet that has sprung up during this time is the cron diet. Caloric restriction with optimal nutrition. Chris: I've definitely heard of that. Kayla: Yeah. Cause I've talked about it. It might be a future topic. It prescribes a low calorie diet, including fasting, to improve health and lifespan. And I learned that it was developed by a man named Roy Walford during his participation in biosphere two. Chris: Also maybe another topic. Kayla: So that was like around love biosphere. I know very little about it, but I just was like, oh man, that's cool.

1:20:05 Chris: Do you remember they made a movie about it called Biodome with Polyshore? Kayla: Yes, of course. Chris: Remember how Polyshore was a thing? Kayla: Yeah. I even remember the poster. It's like two guys being like, whoa, every other poster in the nineties, right? Chris: Probably like stoner comedy, I'm pretty sure. Kayla: So this is around like 93 and it's worth noting that Walford, like, really touted the longevity benefits of Cron being, like, you're gonna live forever. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: Like, he claimed the diet could help you live up to, like, 150 years. Chris: Wow, that doesn't sound right. Kayla: He died at 79. Chris: Ooh. Kayla: And since then, a lot of recent research into the effectiveness of the Cron diet just doesn't look that promising, unfortunately.

1:20:46 Chris: Yeah, well, right. Kayla: Longer term fasts have also been used, both officially and unofficially, for people to improve their health. So, again, juice cleanses, where you only drink juice for a certain amount of time, and I don't know about that. I love cold pressed juice. I did a juice cleanse, like, back in December, remember? Chris: Oh, yeah, that's right. Even though you know that it's not. It doesn't do anything. Right. So why did you do that? Kayla: I think. Cause I was. I think my tummy hurt. Chris: But again, doesn't do anything. Or was it just because you didn't want to put things into your upset stomach? Kayla: I think it was mostly, like, my tummy hurt, and I didn't feel good. Chris: Wait, when was this?

1:21:26 Kayla: I think it was back in December. Chris: Could you taste things? Kayla: I had Rona. I could taste the juice. The juice is delicious. Pressed juicery. Mwah. But, like, because, again, I cannot undertake fasts, and I cannot. I can't do that the way I did it was. I. It's like a yemenite. It was a one day fast, quote, unquote. And I split it up into two days. So it was like, the first half of the first day, I did the juice, and then I. And then I ate, and then this, then the first half of the second day, I did the juice, and then I ate. Chris: So was it more for your tummy, or is it more of, like, a psychological thing? Kayla: Like a. I think it was both, because it was like, my tummy hurt. I wanted to help my tummy not hurt, and I wanted to just, like. I don't know. I also like juice. It's not. It wasn't. It wasn't.

1:22:13 Chris: You can drink juice. It's so good, there's nothing preventing you from drinking. Kayla: I love their juice. So, again, then there's also the master cleanse, which we'll probably talk about a little bit more, a little bit later. And then these two things are also based on the notorious water fast. So water fasts are exactly what they sound like. You only consume water for a specific period of time. Chris: You know what else is water fast? Speedboats. Kayla: I'm leaving you. Chris: And that's it. That's it. Kayla: The end of our marriage. Chris: That's it for the marriage. Kayla: So. Ha ha. That's my reaction to your joke. Chris: Thanks. Kayla: If you're extremely online, like, I am you extremely.

1:22:57 Chris: Yeah, that you are. Kayla: You may have recently seen water fasts kerfuffling around on the social media. Chris: That's the word for when something goes around social media. It's kerfuffling. Kayla: This was a few months back. A rapper and singer by the name of cupcake was recently in the spotlight for losing a dramatic amount of weight as the result of a 30 day, medically supervised water fast. And it caused the whole thing on the Internet because she posted a picture of herself being like, here's my water fast results. And then some people kind of jumped on her being like, don't post this. It promotes anorexia. And then some people jumped on those people being like, stop policing a woman. It was like a whole thing. Chris: Oof. Kayla: Just leave people alone. Chris: Sounds messy. Kayla: It was very messy. I hope that cupcake is doing all right. I hope that she is living her happiest, healthiest life.

1:23:42 Chris: It's funny that someone named Cupcake did that. Kayla: Well, she. I don't know why her name is Cupcake, but part of the thing is that she used to be plus size, quote, unquote, whatever that means. Like, she used to be of a higher weight. And I think some people were, like, almost disappointed to see this result and, like, not to have this, to have her now be, like, at a more standard weight for pop stars, and it was just a whole thing. I hope that she's doing okay. There is some evidence that water fasting can have, I'm not even going to call it health benefits. I'm going to say health effects. But human studies on fasting, and we'll talk more about this. But human studies on fasting are very limited. Like, oftentimes, the, like, scientific results from fasting studies have been. Those studies have been done on, like, mice and rats and monkeys.

1:24:33 Chris: Isn't that true about, like, a lot of studies, though, that are, like, you know, health studies or just, I don't know, mice, rats, and monkeys first? Kayla: I mean, first for sure. But this isn't first. This is, like, at all, right? There's not a lot of. Chris: So let me amend that. Kayla: There's, you know, a lot of studies done on, like, here's this pill, and people take it, right? Chris: So my understanding, and this is, you know, just my understanding off the cuff is that sometimes studies, or frequently studies will be done on those animals, right? Because doing human studies is massively more expensive and more complex and more involved. Kayla: Right? Chris: And sometimes ethically questionable and ethically questionable in many cases. And then what will happen is that there will be some result that suggests something and then it'll be something like, you know, blah, blah. Study on mice suggests that you might be able to live longer if you stand on 1ft every morning or whatever. It'll be something like that. It'll be something where it's like very, you know, just sort of like, maybe we just, I don't know, we did some science and saw this thing. It's probably not real, but who knows, right? And then that will get taken up by science media, which is not always responsible, and then will be a headline that's like, study says that if you want to live to 120, that you need to stand on 1ft. And it's like, no, no.

1:25:53 Kayla: Right? So that's why I mentioned, like, arms race between, like, doctors doing studies and then the public taking that information, doing it, doing what they will with it, right? Chris: So I think that, yeah, sometimes that's what happens is that they'll be like, there'll be research that happens and it's the gulf between the understanding of, like, what research results are and what a hard truth is that you can use to, you know, do whatever with your life is hard to understand. Kayla: Right? Chris: It's hard. It's a hard. It's a hard gap to fill, even for responsible journalists. And as we know, they're not always responsible. Kayla: Right. Well, and I think that a lot of gap filling has been done with recent discourse around fasting and especially, like, not doctors talking about fasting and instead, like, nutritionists and personal trainers and, like, people on Instagram, I think a lot of gap filling has been done.

1:26:47 Chris: This podcast. Kayla: This podcast. So, like, I mean, that literally dovetails next to what I'm talking about. Like, modern day fasting features a lot in online health and nutrition advice from real folks to fake folks. Chris: Which one are we? Kayla: I don't think. I think we're the middle path. Chris: Oh, no, we're fake. Kayla: Fake news. Chris: Yeah, we're super fake news. Kayla: I did a lot of hard research. Don't call my research fake. Chris: Good job. Kayla: So I've talked a lot about Instagram. Instagram is a hub for spreading diet information and misinformation. So, you know, for better, for worse, I searched the hashtag fasting and there are 2.3 million hits.

1:27:29 Chris: That's not many. Kayla: It's a lot. Chris: That's a joke. Kayla: I also searched the hashtag hash intermittent fasting, and there are 3.4 million results, and there are hundreds of. Chris: It's interesting that there's more for intermittent. I guess that makes sense. Kayla: Well, because that's, like, that's the hotness. That's the diet. Like, fasting isn't the diet. Intermittent fasting is the diet. Chris: Right, right. Fasting is a topic. Intermittent fasting is the thing. Kayla: And, like, along with these hashtags, there's hundreds of accounts dedicated to prescribing fasting to its followers in kind of this, like, one size fits all style. And this really goes along with what we talked about in the previous episode. Social media gives a lot of opportunity for people to make money by being doctors online. It's not always a bad thing. It's, you know, it can be very helpful for people to be able to go online and figure out how to live their best lives. And also this, like, one size fits all approach is also taken. And that's especially when it comes to something like fasting, where you do need medical supervision if it's going to be undertaken. And I mean, like, hardcore fasting, not necessarily what you're doing, but it's best not to get that information necessarily from, like, an Instagram influencer.

1:28:38 Chris: Right. I think that's a pretty safe statement. Kayla: Yeah. I wanted to mention the place that I first learned about intermittent fasting, and it was from a website called Nerd Fitness. Your nerd fitness. Chris: I remember that as also. As being the first place that I heard about it. And also Hugh Jackman when he was training to be Wolverine. And so I forget which X Men. Or maybe it was Logan, or it was the. If the bar ain't bending, you're just pretending. Kayla: Deadlift. That deadlift shot where he was, like, eight plates on each side of the bar and mixed grip, and the bar was literally bending. Chris: Right. And it was that article. He's like, yeah, then I've been doing this intermittent fasten thing, right? Kayla: Well, I didn't learn it from Hugh Jackman. I learned it from nerd fitness. I loved nerd fitness for a while. There's no reason why I don't love it now. It just, you know, things come and go in your life. Their focus is a lot.

1:29:26 Chris: You broke up, it was not you. It's them. Or it's not them, it's you. Kayla: I think I just went. I think I just stopped working from home. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: Their focus is a lot on, like, lifting heavy, doing workouts that you enjoy, and their stuff is all based on nerd culture. So it's like, here's a workout inspired by Link's journey in Ocarina, or, like, learn how to jump high like Mario, that kind of thing. Dorks. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's a great site. There's a lot of great info. And again, it's, like, nerd focused. So there's a lot of, you know, there is a lot of science based stuff, but it's not all sunshine and roses. There is a lot of talk about, like, here's why Paleo is great, because it's exactly like how we ate as cavemen, and that's.

1:30:06 Chris: That's how Bonk ate and bonk's adventures. Kayla: Which is not true. And I'm not saying you can't do Paleo. I'm just saying we are completely different animals with completely different digestive systems than early homo sapiens. It's not the same thing. And also, there is evidence that early homo sapiens were making proto bread. So eat your grains. Eat your carbs. Nerd fitness, I would like you to do a little bit more research on that. Chris: I'm sure they listen to this show. Kayla: Of course they do. They talk a lot about Paleo, and that's where I first heard about intermittent fasting. The guy who, like, founded the site does intermittent fasting, and he pairs that along with his paleo diet and his heavy lifting. Like, he's the kind of person where.

1:30:46 Chris: He'S basically doing what I'm doing. So I guess I'm not doing paleo. Kayla: No. He usually works out, like, in the morning. So he. He's intermittent fasting until, like, after his morning workout, and then he waits, like, an hour and then eats lunch kind of thing. Chris: That's an interesting approach. Kayla: Yeah. And a lot of his reasoning for why he does intermittent fasting really fits in with what were talking about, where, like, it just fits into people's lifestyles. This fit in really well with his lifestyle, with where he likes to have his workouts. This guy works from home, so he has a really flexible schedule. In that way, it's easier. It's just easier and simpler for him to not have to worry about eating until he gets these other things out of the. The way. But also, it does take a little bit of this one size fits all prescription where, like, me learning about intermittent fasting and attempting it was not healthy for me.

1:31:34 Chris: Right. You attempted it. Yeah, I don't remember that. I don't remember that. Dude, that was, like, years ago. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: I remember what happened yesterday. Kayla: I have attempted diets, even in my recovery up until like five years ago. Chris: Up until the juice thing you just talked about. Kayla: That's not a diet. That was my tummy hurt. Chris: I'm kidding. Kayla: I'm kidding. I've attempted. I've attempted weight loss even in my recovery, as a part of my recovery, where it's like, that is how I knew I was not fully recovered because weight loss was still a thing. Weight loss is not a thing for me anymore. And that's fairly recent in my recovery within the last few years.

1:32:15 Chris: Right, right. Kayla: And intermittent fasting was one of them. Doesn't work for me. I tried paleo, remember? I tried to be a vegetarian paleo. Chris: Really? Kayla: It doesn't work. I just ate a lot of greek yogurt. Chris: That's what caveman ate, was greek yogurt. Kayla: Exactly. You're not even supposed to eat greek yogurt because it's dairy. You're not supposed to eat dairy. But I like. That's what I did. It did not work for me. Chris: Huh. Kayla: So I can't do fasting, but some people can. Let's talk about some science based pros and cons. There has been some evidence that intermittent fasting can improve health, with claims ranging from reversing aging to reducing body weight. In general, it's understood that fasting can be, quote unquote, effective in at least temporarily reducing body weight. But again, few human studies, and a lot of the human studies about fasting often have high dropout rates for obvious reasons.

1:33:08 Chris: Right. Kayla: Some pros and cons take it to the grain of salt, because, again, research is still out. Pro. It's easy. Anyone can do it. Doesn't require much planning necessarily, doesn't require money. It's just kind of like, I don't eat from these hours to these hours, and from these hours to these hours, I eat. Chris: Right. Kayla: Easy. Simple. Chris: It's not, you know, that is one of the things. Kayla: Nutrisystem or whatever. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Here's some pro stuff from an article from Harvard medical School. Part of the fascination with intermittent fasting arises from research within animals showing that fasting may reduce cancer risk and slow aging. Quote, one hypothesis is that fasting can activate cellular mechanisms that help boost immune function and reduce inflammation associated with chronic diseases.

1:33:50 Chris: Hell yeah. Kayla: Yeah. So that's cool. But he also. Doctor who also says that there's no stroke. Chris: Doctor. Wait, doctor who? Kayla: Doctor Hu who also says this is nerd fitness. Yes. Doctor who also says there's no strong evidence that fasting adds health benefits beyond any other weight loss strategy. But that's just one man's opinion. Chris: Whatever. Doctor who, why don't you go back to fighting Time Lords or whatever? Kayla: Con, it can be bad for many pre existing conditions. It can aggravate or not help or worsen diabetes, eating disorders, high blood pressure, heart disease. It can be hard to stick to for many people. That's why there's high dropout rates in the studies. It can also lead to overeating or binge eating for some people. If you abstain from eating, then you make up for it by eating a whole lot, even more than you would have eaten if you had just eaten. And that may, you know, it can be unsustainable in that way. It can even lead to weight gain if you, if it triggers a binge response. It does reduce body weight, like we mentioned, but it can reduce fat free mass, which means it can cause you to lose the kind of weight that you don't want to lose, like muscle mass.

1:35:02 Kayla: Muscle mass. Chris: Oh, no. Kayla: But if you, this is actually listed as a pro on this website that I was reading because if you eat a proper amount of like protein and macronutrients, you can offset that. Chris: Okay. Kayla: It's just like poorly planned. It can reduce fat free body mass. Chris: Got it. Kayla: Pro. It may improve asthma, insulin sensitivity and glucose homeostasis. Cholesterol, inflammation may. But still pretty cool if it can do all those things. Still considered a fad diet, like we mentioned, it interferes with the social aspect of eating, which is pretty big deal, I think, like, you know, you can't necessarily go out to eat with your friends when they're doing it because it may not fit in your window or whatever. Whatever.

1:35:46 Chris: Right. Kayla: It can. It can also trigger digestive issues in some people. Maybe that's why my tummy hurt. It's not. Chris: Yeah, I thought you did it because your tummy hurt. Kayla: No, no. It can also, if you are somebody that has a uterus, it can really fuck with your like, reproductive and fertility ness, fertileness, your reproductive capabilities. Okay, so that's, again why you need a doctor. Pro. It fits easier into modern day busy lifestyle for some people. Like, if you're the kind of person who's rolling out of bed at 09:00 and getting in the car to go to work and you don't have time. Chris: For breakfast, I don't know what that's like. Kayla: Just intermittent fast. And it may make exercise, quote unquote more effective. That is. That's why the guy from nerd fitness trains in a fasted state, because he. You know, there's claims that it burns more fat and builds more muscle, that kind of thing.

1:36:35 Chris: That sounds a little pseudo to me. Kayla: It does to me, too. But that's why it's May. Chris: Right? Okay. Kayla: Okay. Huge, huge, huge overview of fasting in the world. Do you think were thorough enough? Chris: I think that were as thorough as we needed to be. That was quite the journey. Kayla: So you think that we've cleaned our plates? Chris: Oh, is it dessert time? Kayla: We've fully eaten our main course. Chris: Am I a cookie or am I ice cream? Kayla: You're over what you want to be, baby. Chris: Cookie ice cream. Kayla: Your cookie dough ice cream. Chris: Hell, yeah. Kayla: Now that we've kind of gotten all of the context, I really want to talk to you about your experience with intermittent fasting.

1:37:18 Chris: So is the implication here is that I'm in a cult? Kayla: We haven't gotten to our criteria yet, so there is no implication. Okay, so let me just ask you some questions if you're ready for your interview. Chris: Ready to be interviewed like the famous person that I am. Kayla: You are. So my first question was, where did you first learn about intermittent fasting? But you already explained that to us. Nerd fitness and Hugh Jackman. Chris: Yeah, mainly Hugh Jackman. Kayla: Of course. The bar ain't bending, my good buddy. So then what made you decide to try it? So you learned about it. How did you make the leap? Chris: So I think it's. There's sort of multifactorial for me, the thing that's hard for me to say is, which thing made me make the leap because I've been doing it for a while now, and it's like, I don't know, did that make me do it first or did the other thing? So all of the supposed health benefits that you just rattled off is definitely one of the factors. I would be lying if I said there wasn't some, like, weight loss component to it that got me to doing it in the first place.

1:38:21 Kayla: Right. Chris: The things that I read and saw and listened to about it seemed to suggest that it was good for, I guess, the opposite of what you were saying. Well, I guess you're saying if your macros are right, but basically for weight loss, that would leave your lean body mass, weight loss, that would leave your body composition with more muscle, less fat. But then a big component for me was, and we already mentioned this, too, but was the lifestyle bit of. But for me, I don't really care about snacking. I'm not one of those, oh, I love breakfast food. I'm not Leslie Knope with waffles. Kayla: We don't even have a waffle maker.

1:39:01 Chris: Yeah, I'm more of, like, I would like to have a big dinner guy, and then, yeah, it is kind of convenient to not have to fix breakfast in the morning and to be able to do something else during lunch in the afternoon. It's hard for me to say which of those things was, like, the first thing or the only thing or the whatever that put me over the edge, but those are both components. I also feel like I tend to be. You said that one of the downsides is the social component, which I have always found with any sort of dietary restriction to be one of, if not the most challenging bit. But I think that at least where I am now, with intermittent fasting, it's easier. Chris: It's much easier for me to just adjust that to the social context than it is to adjust some, like, for example, keto. Right. So if you're on keto or Atkins or something, it's like, if you even have, like, you know, one sugar cube, you break the whole ketosis thing and you have to start from scratch for two weeks. So it's like, you can't. You cannot eat carbohydrates, right? So. And there's. And there's other things that are less strict than keto but have the similar sort of, like, prescription of, like, these are the foods that are verboten. Like, you cannot eat them. And so then you go to a restaurant with some friends, and it's like, oh, sorry, guys, I can't do that.

1:40:19 Kayla: Right? Chris: Whereas with intermittent fasting, all you have to do is say, like, all right, I'm going to have some friends this Friday. So that means, I guess Friday can be like, Friday will be an if day for the morning, but not the night or whatever. Right. You can just kind of, like, figure out when that's supposed to happen, and then when you're there, you can just do whatever. Just be like, okay, yeah, there's no rules about what I'm supposed to eat. I've already done the rules bit by arranging my day around this. Kayla: Had you ever done any other kind of fasting before? Trying intermittent fasting? Chris: Well, you mentioned the master cleanse. Kayla: I did. Chris: Which before I knew that it was not actually any good for you. Kayla: Right. Describe what it is.

1:41:00 Chris: I did attempt the master cleanse, not once, but twice. Kayla: You didn't attempt, though. Oh, you did. Chris: Sorry, I did. Yeah. So the math, actually, I attempted. It wasn't called the master cleanse at the time, but I attempted like a. Like a two day juice cleanse in college. And then the master cleanse was the thing that got popular around, what, like the mid to late two thousands. Kayla: It's whenever dream girls came out because it got famous, because Beyonce supposedly did it. But that'll popularize a certain amount of weight in a certain amount of time for the role. Chris: So it's like this. All these, like, bizarrely specific things for the master cleanse. Kayla: Like, it was also featured on an episode of the Office. Chris: So you. Right, so what you do is for. For ten days, you don't eat solid food. Kayla: Horrifying to me.

1:41:41 Chris: And so I can confirm the sort of, like, heady euphoria you eventually get. So, like, the first couple days are fucking miserable and then, like, you know, the back two thirds of it is not bad. Like, you feel pretty good, actually. Kayla: Right? Well, you. You did. Chris: Yeah, I did. So. But anyway, but what it entails is, since you're not, you do need to get some calories in you or else, you know, you can't live, contrary to what breatharians say. So the way you get your calories in the master cleanse is by this, like, again, bizarrely specific lemonade drink that you're supposed to make. And it's like, a very specific amount of it that you are supposed to drink each day. And it's very portioned off. And it's basically like you squeeze fresh lemons. You put. You're supposed to put, like, a certain grade of maple syrup as the sugar, I think.

1:42:30 Kayla: I just want to make sure that it's real maple syrup from a tree and not like. Chris: Yeah, it can't be, like, fake. Like, just like the regular, like, Aunt Joanna's maple syrup. It has to just. It has to be like. Like a thick ass. Like real grade. I feel grade a or something. Yeah. And then it also. You have to put cayenne pepper in it. I'm not exactly sure what that's for. Kayla: Kicks up your metabolism, baby. Chris: There's probably some stuff I'm forgetting. But then the other big thing that you're supposed to do every morning is do this, like, oral saltwater enema. So you're supposed to, like, basically drink, like, a several. Like, a large glass. I forget exactly how much of warm, highly salinated water. And. And that part's brutal. And the idea is that it goes through you and cleanses out your colon, which I can confirm that it does do that.

1:43:23 Kayla: Well, it makes. Chris: It makes you have a bowel movement. Sorry for being gross. Kayla: I just don't want to get into the territory of, like, it cleanses your colon. Chris: It does not do that because there's no. It doesn't do that. Kayla: There's not fecal matter spackled on the inside of your intestines. That hasn't come out. I know we all thought there was, but it's not a real thing. Chris: Right. But I can confirm that the saltwater that you drink, the warm saltwater will go through you with the quickness. Kayla: Are you going to explain how you do the saltwater because it's different than how you're supposed to? Chris: Oh, well, because it's so freaking disgusting. It's literally. It's like drinking, like, warm ocean water. It's that salt, and you have to drink so much of it. And so what I do to make it better is I will not will, I don't do this anymore because I haven't done this in years. But. But back when I did it, I would. I would make an even highly. An even more highly concentrated dose of salt water. Like, a shot of, like, ultra, ultra salty. Like, all of the salt that was supposed to go in, like, the large, you know, quart or whatever you're drinking. I would put it in, like, a shot, and then I would pound that, and then I would immediately chase it with the rest of the warm, just plain water.

1:44:37 Chris: And I would assume that it would mix in my stomach just fine, which I believe it did. But the whole thing is bunk anyway. Like, it doesn't actually, like, there's no, like you said, it doesn't actually. Your bowels cleanse themselves. Your body does that naturally. So the master cleanse doesn't actually do that. The euphoria you get is from body chemistry changes that happen as a result of any sort of fasting. Kayla: Right. Chris: I don't know why it's so bizarrely specific with the lemonade recipe, but, yeah, I did it twice and went through all ten days. And like I said, that by the time you get to the last part, at least for me, by the time I got to the back part of it was. You're feeling pretty good. Kayla: I mean, that to have that experience, I feel like it kind of naturally makes something like intermittent fasting even more attractive because you've had. You've already had a good experience with fasting.

1:45:26 Chris: Right. Kayla: Restricting food and fasting and not eating in a way that, like, feels good for you. Chris: Right. Kayla: Where do you go to get your information on intermittent fasting? Like, do you have any names that you trust? Is it just kind of like, reliance on your own intuition at this point. Chris: Yeah. Like, I haven't gotten info about it in so long that I'm not sure. Like, I know nerd fitness was one of them, but I couldn't tell you, like, a yde. A specific, like, guru that I go to for it because I just. Yeah, I've just. I've been doing it for, like, a few years now, and the last time I picked up info on it was probably from some random, like, blog or something, that I was a random blog. Like, oh, I just went to some pseudo blog, but, you know, some, like, you know, WebMd says this or something like that. Right. So it's hard for me to say, like, I don't have, like, a specific, like, person that I listen to about it.

1:46:18 Kayla: I guess along with that, do you take any, like, precautions with it? Like, is there any. Chris: No, I probably should be testing that you do. Or, I mean, I do take some supplements, but it's unrelated to the intermittent fasting. Like, I do take, like, some, you know, some vitamin D and coq ten and some stuff that doctors have recommended to me over the years. Actual mds, not WebMD, not weirdos on the web, but. Really? Yeah, but, But I, you know, I do that outside of the. The if practice. Like, the only thing that I. That I do is, doo. This is all about the doo topic, is the show. Is I do also take a fiber supplement, and I do that in the morning. And I. In my. My. If I eat at night. So the fiber supplement in the morning makes it so that I. I don't. I don't even really get hungry for, you know, a little while.

1:47:12 Kayla: Right. Chris: So that helps with it. Kayla: Is intermittent fasting something that you use, like, to complement other aspects of your health pursuit? Is that the focus? Chris: No, no, it's complementary. Like, I think at this point, maybe I would question whether it's any good for weight loss, but I'm also maybe, like, not like, I think maybe you're making me think about reassessing, like, how I do it and things, like talking to a doctor or seeking more information on it, because I haven't done that sort of check in a while. Sort of, like, self assessment on it in a while. But weight loss hasn't really been that great for weight loss, but maybe it's because I haven't been doing it well, I think, like, that's an interesting thing to say.

1:47:58 Kayla: Sorry, I don't want to interrupt. Chris: Oh, yeah. I mean, I know you mentioned that in the previous episode. Like, it's oh, if you know, if you don't lose weight, then it's on you. It's not on the diet. But you also just mentioned that, like, it can lead to, one of the downsides to intermittent fasting is that it can lead to bingeing or overeating when you do eat. And I think that I am prone to some of that. So, you know, it's the type of thing where, like, maybe I should reassess. But I don't know, it's like, it's not like a huge part of my life either. It's just like something that I kind of casually do. I don't, like, if I, like I said, if I need to not do it for some social reasons or other reasons, then that's not, I make really. Kayla: Good cookies in the middle of the day.

1:48:38 Chris: Yeah. I try not to be, like, really strict about it in that sense. I haven't been doing it since we've been quarantined at all, I don't think. Except for, like, a couple days. Kayla: You have a couple days? Yeah. But even usually you go like, oh, I accidentally if today. Chris: Yeah. And that, I mean, that kind of goes back to the, like, the lifestyle thing, right? Is that it's like, sometimes it's like, oh, shit, I haven't eaten all day. Whoops. Kayla: And see, like, that cannot happen to me. There's never a day where I go like, oh, I forgot to eat. No, no. And granted, we've had different, like, different backgrounds on relationships with food, but, yeah, like, that does not, cannot happen for me. It's so interesting. But yeah, I don't, like, I obviously, I think we should all be evaluating our relationships with the way we eat. But I don't mean to say that, like, you shouldn't. You shouldn't if anymore. I think it does more naturally fit your eating. Like your pattern of eating, your style of eating naturally.

1:49:31 Chris: And to fully answer your question, yeah, I guess it's supplementary at best. The thing I think about more is activity as being the thing that's sort of like the health related stuff that I do is like physical activity. And maybe it's a compliment to that you lift heavy. Kayla: What does a typical intermittent fast day look like for you? You know, you mentioned that you fast until the evening. It's a big evening meal. Chris: So what is like, well, even, I'll even give you the week. So, like, on the days. So it'll be like two to three days a week that I will, that I'll go to the gym to lift and on those days, I will skip breakfast. I'll do my regular fiber in the morning. I'll have coffee or something, but then I'll have a. I will have lunch. You know, I don't want to go to lift heavy weights in a fasted state because I don't think that's good for the lifting performance. Right. Which that's. That's all about.

1:50:22 Kayla: Nerd fitness would argue with you. Chris: Well, I would argue with nerd fitness. But, yeah, I don't know, maybe I could be wrong about. That's true. And then on other days that I don't go to the gym, I will all really do is the same thing, except I won't eat lunch. It's the same exact thing, except no lunch. Kayla: Right. Chris: And those days, I will still. I'll try to do something during lunch that's like, somewhat active. So, like, I'll go on a walk at work. We live my place of work. Fortunately, I'm very fortunate that it's close to a beach, so I'll just walk on the beach during lunch. At least that's what were doing before the world came to an end. Kayla: So has taking on intermittent fasting changed your life at all? Like, do you notice a difference in the way that you feel? Do you notice a difference in the way your workouts go? Or is it just kind of there?

1:51:09 Chris: I think it's kind of just there. I mean, the days that I do it, I don't feel that different until, like, I don't know, like, starts to be like 536 o'clock, and then I'll start to feel, like, a little cranky. Kayla: I have experienced that. Chris: I have witnessed that as, you know. Kayla: Although usually I don't notice it until you're like, oh, sorry, I'm being so cranky. And I'm. I'm like, oh, what? Chris: Yeah, I'll get either cranky or, like, it'll maybe, like, you get hangry thinking through a fog a little bit, not like lightheaded or anything, but just like, why is it so hard to think right now? Oh, yeah, I haven't eaten all day, so that'll start to happen around, like. Kayla: 06:00 so my next question was going to be like, does ifing make any aspects of your life more difficult? And it sounds like it can make that. Yeah.

1:51:56 Chris: So the later part of the day that can be the case, but. Kayla: It doesn't really interfere, it sounds like, with your social life or. Chris: I don't think so. Kayla: Enjoying a cookie when you want one right here's. The biggie. Chris: Oh, boy. Kayla: As someone who does intermittent fasting, are there any aspects of it that you think fit our cult criteria? Chris: Well, the one that jumps out, like, loud and clear is ritual. Kayla: Yeah, that's true. Chris: So that one, I think, is just, like an easy sell. Yeah, I mean, ritual jumps out. Kayla: Rituals in this episode of culture, just weird. As well as the episode in two weeks, we're going to be talking a lot about food, dieting, eating disorders, and related content. If you have an eating disorder or in recovery or know that diet related talk may be triggering for you, please consider skipping this episode. And if you need help, please visit the National association of anorexia nervosa and associated Disorders. You have. I've never seen you go die.

1:52:50 Chris: Like, that's when you know something's wrong. Like, if I don't do that. Kayla: Yeah. You've done fiverr every single day since we've been doing this. Chris: Yeah, I love the fiber. Except for. Except for when we travel. Kayla: Yeah. And then you complain about it every single day. Chris: I do not. Kayla: You definitely complain about it. Chris: I do. Because, like, my brain is used to it. My brain is like, how did we start the day without doing that? Kayla: Have you ever tried to convince anyone else to do intermittent fasting or, like, sung its praises? Prophets? Chris: I've definitely sung its praises. Kayla: Evangelized, maybe. Chris: Sung. I have definitely sung its praises. I don't know if I've tried to get anybody on board. I don't think I've been like, you know what? You should try it. Kayla: This was not an evangelizing cult.

1:53:32 Chris: I don't think so. Kayla: It's an attraction cult. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It's not a proselytizing cult. Yeah. Kayla: What? This is my last question. So what do you think intermittent fasting has taught you about yourself? If the answer is nothing, that's also fine. Chris: I don't know, maybe that I, like, have some willpower that I didn't think that I had. But I don't know. Actually, I don't think the willpower, maybe that's not true. Because if that were true, then I think the answer, the whole thing about fitting lifestyle wouldn't be relevant, right? If it already fits my lifestyle. And if I'm going some days where I'm like, oops, I guess I didn't eat a. Right, then that's not really willpower. So I don't know, maybe it's taught me that's a preferred way that my body works sometimes.

1:54:19 Kayla: Do you think it's taught you about flexibility in your health pursuit, because there's definitely just from an outsider's perspective, I've known you before, intermittent fasting. I've known you when you started intermittent fasting, and it was more like religion, and then I know you now where it's more just like something that kind of naturally happens in your life. Chris: Yeah, I think I. Kayla: But I think it's more flexible. Chris: So to your point, like, I had to get there, right? Like, I think in the past. Yeah, it was more. It was more like the keto diet, where it was like, must do this on this schedule, and if I deviate, then that's bad, and everything's busted and. Oh, no. Whereas now. Yeah, it's more of, like, you know, I will try to. To plan around it and, like, fit things in properly. But, you know, if somebody's like, hey, you want to go to dinner tomorrow? Then I'll be like, oh, yeah, sure. That's fine. You know, like, it'll. I can work around that, no problem.

1:55:12 Kayla: Thank you for that interview. Chris: You're welcome. Kayla: That was very good. Chris: I charge a pretty penny, though, so. Kayla: Oh, we don't pay for interviews. That's unethical. We're not Hulu doing a Billy McFarlane buyer fest doc. Thank you, Hulu, for getting him on your documentary. Oh, my God. Everybody go watch the Hulu Fyre festival. Chris: Oh, my God. Have we mentioned Fyre Fest? This. Kayla: No, this is the first time. Then go watch the Netflix Fyre Fest doc. They're insane. Better than Tiger King by a. Oh, my God. So much better. Way better. Chris: Really? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Is it. It's less bonkers, though. Kayla: It is definitely not less bonkers. It is one of the greatest stories ever told.

1:55:54 Chris: It is. It is. The Fyre fest docs are great. Kayla: So before we wrap up and head on to our criteria, why are you. Chris: Headbanging when you say it? Kayla: Speaking of things that are bonkers, I just wanted to leave us with one more story to kind of palate cleanse. I don't know. Chris: Is this the dessert wine or something? Kayla: This is the dessert wine. This is the coffee after this. Okay, I want to talk about Linda Hazzardous. H a z z a r d. Chris: Who the hell is that? Kayla: Nicknamed the starvation doctor. Chris: Oh, God. Kayla: This is just a fun story. It's not fun. It actually is. Chris: Sounds fun. Kayla: This is not a fun story. It's a fascinating story. There are many articles written about Linda Hazzard. I learned about her from an episode of my favorite murder, another fantastic podcast. And the Smithsonian magazine did a story on her called, quote, I. The doctor who starved her patients to death.

1:56:49 Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: And then the, like, subheading was Linda Hazzard. Killed as many as a dozen people in the early 20th century, and they paid willingly for it. Chris: Wow. Kayla: Okay. Chris: She's like the converse of Hannibal Lecter. Kayla: Yes. Wait, huh? Chris: Not the opposite, but the converse. Instead of eating the people she killed, she starved the people she. The people she killed. Kayla: Don't think that worked. Don't think that worked. I think that was wrong. Chris: Is that also. Kayla: How dare you, Hannibal Lecter, by comparing. Chris: Her to this woman? I'm sorry. Kayla: So, okay. Linda Hazzard was this woman who opened a sanitarium in Olalla, Washington.

1:57:29 Chris: That was a popular thing to do at the turn of the century. Kayla: Yes. And she claimed that food was the root of all disease. She wrote two books. The first one was published in 1908 called Fasting for the Cure of disease. And while she had no medical degree or formal training, a loophole allowed her to hold a medical license in Washington as a quote unquote, fasting specialist. Chris: You know, Mister lynch is from Malala, Washington. Well, he's from wash. I don't know which city or town or whatever, but, like, he holds a quote unquote doctor of naturopathy. Kayla: Mmm. Chris: And his license? He got his license in the state of Washington. Kayla: Well, this bitch said shit like, quote, appetite is craving, hunger is desire. Craving is never satisfied, but desire is relieved when want is supplied.

1:58:18 Chris: What the fuck? What? That sounds like an inspirational quote from Michael Scott. Kayla: Yes. So Miss Linda opened up this sanitarium. It was called, like, wild fang spring something. I don't know, because the locals. The locals nicknamed it starvation Heights. And people paid to come and have her treat them. Would you like to know what her treatment consisted of? Chris: It sounds like it was pretty simple. Don't eat. Kayla: Oh, it was not. Chris: Oh. Kayla: She claimed that one needed to let the digestive system rest periodically, so patients would fast for days to sometimes months at a time.

1:58:58 Chris: Holy shit. Kayla: Surviving only on a cup or two of tomato and asparagus broth a day, sometimes a teaspoon of orange juice. They had daily enemas that sometimes lasted for hours. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: And received vigorous massages. That, quote, sometimes sounded more like beatings. And supposedly she also, during these massages, was yelling, eliminate while it was happening. Chris: Why are people so weird? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: What the fuck? Kayla: I don't know. But patients literally starved to death under her care. Deaths, of course, that Linda attributed to already existing underlying conditions like cirrhosis of the liver or shrunken organs. Chris: It was thought that was supposed to be. What you're doing is curing those things.

1:59:41 Kayla: No, it was. The problem was, all these people came to her when they were too far gone and she couldn't help them, and it just. Her treatment couldn't save them. They were too far gone. They didn't come to her. Fastenitive enough. Chris: Fast enough. This is the pun episode. Kayla: No, it's not. Chris: Oh, it is. Kayla: One high profile death was that of Claire Williamson, who went to starvation heights with her sister Dora. The sisters were from a wealthy family or wealthy british family. Remember that? When Claire died, she weighed under. We're going to talk about weights here. Very troubling weights. She weighed under 70 pounds. Chris: Oof. Kayla: And by the time the family came to rescue, she weighed 50 pounds. Chris: Oh, my. Kayla: This is, like, a full grown adult woman. That's less than our dog weight.

2:00:24 Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: She weighed 50 pounds. And she was so, like, emaciated and bony that she couldn't even sit without feeling pain because, like, her bones would just. She couldn't sit. But. But she. Her family came and was like, come with us. And she refused to leave, even though she was literally starving to death. This is the sister that. That did not die. The family. Eventually, after they went there, when Clare died, the family realized that Linda Hazzard, at some point, had been appointed the executor of Claire's estate before her death and had also been appointed Dora's guardian for life, meaning she had signed over her power of attorney.

2:01:05 Chris: So this is a cult. Kayla: I think it's just a scam, right? Yeah, it's a scam cult. Yeah, she's. She's, like, literally, her Wikipedia page is like, Linda Hazzard was a con artist, trickster, fraudster, sham person. Like, literally, it's all just like. She was a fake. So Linda and her husband had also taken all of Claire's possessions, like, her clothes, her, just literally everything. Like, literally. While the family came over to be like, give us Dora back. They were talking to Linda while she was wearing one of Claire's dresses. Chris: Oh, my God. That is ballsy. Kayla: Yeah. And in all of these possessions, this included at least $6,000 worth of the sister's jewels. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Linda Hazard had to be paid $1,000 from the family before she would let Dora leave with them.

2:01:50 Chris: Couldn't they call the cops? Kayla: I mean, it's 1908. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Also, like, it's one of those things where it. What? It's kind of like talking about the deprogramming thing. Like, you know, like, these people were here of their own free will, right? The $1,000 was kind of just like, okay, I'll tell her that she should go with you. Chris: Right? Okay, gotcha. Kayla: So this was her mo. She starved patients, which made them pliable so that she could gain possession of their properties and their money. Honey. And then they died, and she got a windfall. She was eventually convicted of manslaughter for Claire's death. Chris: Thank you. Kayla: I think that was in 1912. And she served two years in the. And guess what she did then.

2:02:32 Chris: She did her thing in prison. Kayla: She hung out. No, she got out of prison, hung out in New Zealand for a while, practicing medicine, and then came back to Olalla and opened a new sanatorium, like, on the same grounds, and continued starving people. Chris: How was this allowed also? Come on, Washington, what's going on? Kayla: You're like. Chris: You know what it is? It's. It's the. It's the corners. It's the corners of the United States, right? It's. You got Florida right on the one corner and then Washington on the other corner, because Washington is where you got yelm. That's what's where Ramtha is. Washington is where. Wild, wild country.

2:03:13 Kayla: Oh, there's a. No, there's a lot of talk about how the Pacific Northwest is a. Is a weird place. Yeah, a lot of serial killers come from there. Yeah, there's a lot of weird cult and supernatural stuff there. Chris: What the hell, man? Kayla: There's an entire, like. I don't know. It's just different. Podcast topic. So, yeah, this woman went back to Lala, opened up a new thing. Luckily, it burnt to the ground in 1935 and was not rebuilt. And then three years later, in 1938, Linda Hazzard died at the age of 70. She had fallen ill and decided to attempt a fasting cure of her own. Chris: Oh, shit. So, wait, she put her money where her mouth was, at least. Yeah. Kayla: And she died. Died. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And including her, at least 19 people died under her care.

2:03:56 Chris: Wow. That is not small. No, that's not a small number. Kayla: No. Chris: Jesus. Kayla: Do you want to. Just to end this, there's a diary from 1910 from one of her patients. His name is Earl Edward Erdman, and he was a civil engineer, and he died of starvation. Do you want me to read a little bit of his diary? Basically what he ate. February 1, no. Breakfast, mashed soup. Dinner. Mashed soup, dinner. Wait, no. Mashed soup. Dinner, mashed soup, supper. February 5 through 7th. Chris: What's mashed soup? Kayla: Mashed soup. Chris: How do you mash soup? It's just broth. Kayla: No idea. February 5 through 7th, one orange breakfast, mashed soup, dinner, mashed soup, supper. Keeps going, keeps going. February 13. Two orange breakfasts, no dinner, no supper. February 14. One cup of strained tomato broth at 06:00 p.m. February 17. Ate three oranges. Today. February 20. Ate strained juice of two small oranges at 10:00 a.m. Dizzy all day.

2:04:56 Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Literally, these people were just starving to death. February 25. Slept pretty well. Thursday night, ate one half and a cups tomato broth at 11:00 a.m. Ate one and a half cups tomato broth. 06:00 p.m. Pain in right below ribs. February 26. Did not sleep very well. Friday night, pain in right side, just below ribs and back. Ate one and a half cups tomato broth. And then the diet like this went on and on until his hospitalization on March 28, and he died that afternoon. Okay, her diet, fucking. Her diet of intense fasting killed people. Chris: Mmm. Yeah. Kayla: So let's go to our criteria.

2:05:36 Chris: Cool. Great fun. Here they are. Obligatory paper ruffle. Kayla: Paper ruffle? Chris: Yeah. Paper. That's what this is. Kayla: Rustle. Chris: Rustle? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: I don't know. It's ruffled. Kayla: No. No. Chris: I don't know. All right, so I feel like this is another one of those where I'm gonna have to ask you, what exactly is the cult? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Cool. You know that our show is cult or just weird, right? Kayla: But I said I'm gonna do fasting, and then that turned out to be. I'm gonna give you a history of the world. Chris: Okay, so the world is the cult, then. Kayla: I think the cult is intermittent fasting, maybe.

2:06:19 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Even though we talked about literally everything, I mean, we could talk. I don't know. Chris: Is it fasting? Kayla: The cult is fasting. It's just fasting. Chris: Just fasting. Kayla: Fasting. Chris: I don't think that's a cult, just. Without even looking at the criteria then, because that's just, like, a thing people do. So. Yeah, I don't think it can be. I think it has to be something more specific than that. I think it has to be, like, either breatharians or. I mean, we didn't talk enough about them, I guess, but. Okay, well, let's. Let's say it's intermittent fasting, then. I think that's because if we just said fasting, that's, like. Again, that's just, like, something people do. Kayla: Okay. Chris: So I think I. To talk about it in terms of, like, is it a cult or just weird? We would have to say, like, some movement at least, right? At least intermittent fasting is a movement.

2:07:00 Kayla: Body weight movements. Chris: Right? Kayla: Yeah. We can say intermittent fasting with the caveat of just like, well, it's your. Chris: Episode, so you tell me, babe. Kayla: I don't know. It's literally everything. It just. This topic really got away from me. I'm happy to do intermittent fasting, but just. Man, oh, man, I got overwhelmed. Chris: Yeah, well, right. I can tell. Okay. Kayla: Oh, also, I want to say here that I have a really interesting story that didn't fit into this that I'm saving for the bonus content. It's really interesting, and it's about. Chris: Sell that bonus content. Go to Patreon. Kayla: It's about a specific type of fasting that popped up during the Victoria.

2:07:43 Chris: Ooh. Okay, so expected harm. If we're talking about if here, I think the expected harm is pretty low, certainly. Especially if you say expected means, like, I am going to join this thing. What is my expectation? Like, what is my personal expectation? The reason I think a lot of people join it is because there's expected help. There's expected benefit. Right. So I'd say there's maybe expected benefit whether the jury is out on it or not, whether it's true that there's benefit. I think the expected harm is extremely low and maybe even in reverse. Kayla: What about the statistic from the previous episode about the pipeline from dieting to developing disordered eating?

2:08:33 Chris: So it sounds like, yeah, potentially a slippery slope there. But if we're saying specifically intermittent fasting, I don't know, it still feels, like, low to me. I guess. I see what you're saying is like a gateway thing. Do you know how often that happens, or is that just a general thing. Kayla: That I don't know. I know that it's not recommended for anybody that has disordered eating in their past, and when I attempted intermittent fasting, it set me back. Chris: Okay. So I guess there could be some expected harm depending on the individual. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: But in general, it doesn't feel very high. Kayla: Or like if you have diabetes, it could be bad for you or high blood pressure or if you're old or if you have. There was other ones.

2:09:19 Chris: I think I'm sticking with low. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Is it niche within its society? I think maybe it was at one point. I don't know. Maybe there's some of our listeners who. Kayla: Haven'T heard of it, but I think still niche. Chris: You think so? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: I don't know. It's like everywhere. I mean, at least with the media we consume. Like, I feel like I see a. Kayla: Lot about it, but, like, if you asked your parents about it. Yeah, well, yeah, although my mom knows about it. Like, I know that my. I know that it. At least according to my mom, it's something that works well for her, that she enjoys. But I don't. I don't know. I guess. I don't know. Chris: Yeah, I don't know. I think for it to be niche, it would have to be something like. Like Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh, where it's like there's only a few thousand of them. Right. This feels like it's potentially millions and millions of people that know about this. So I say, no, it's not niche, anti factuality. So I'm hesitant to say that it's even anti factual, even though there's, like, the jury still out stuff. Certainly it sounds like there are some elements of fasting that can be like, very woo. Very sort of like, unsubstantiated pseudoscience. I'm not sure that if falls under that yet. Maybe there's some aspects of it that are a little more far fetched than others. At least some aspects. Some claims that feel like they aren't necessarily factual. But I also. I'm not sure I get it's marking.

2:10:40 Kayla: Pretty high on anti factuality for me, only because there are so many well known, extraordinary claims about it that are absolutely not backed. Chris: Like the age, like the slows aging thing. Kayla: Yeah. Even, just like, even the health benefits, there's not enough scientific basis for them to be, like, considered fact. It's still like, it may do this, it may do that. Chris: And there may be some motivated reasoning here, too. Just speaking from my own experience of, like, maybe it's like, does it, you know, does it actually help me achieve health goals and lose weight or do I just want to believe that I will do that? Yeah. So maybe anti factuality is, like, medium for me, high for you, medium to high percentage of life consumed. I don't know. I feel like I can stop doing it kind of whenever I want. But does that sound a little bit like I can quit whenever?

2:11:36 Kayla: And it does. And it's only, I think that. I really think it depends on the individual. Like, I know for me, when I attempted it hugely, life consuming, all I could think about was, when do I get to eat? When do I not eat? Oh, God, is it in my eating window? Oh, no. Like, I think. And then depending on what style of intermittent fasting you're doing, like, I think it can. It's not supposed to. Part of the draw is that for some people, it can be really easily slotted into your lifestyle. But I think. I don't think the vast majority of people who try intermittent fasting are just naturally intermittent. Faster is, I think a lot of. Chris: People, like, trying to fit their life around it versus the other way. Kayla: With any diet approach, it can really take over your life.

2:12:17 Chris: I feel like your answer to percentage of life consumed is always, like, it depends on who you are every single time. Kayla: Yeah. Yes. Chris: Okay. Ritual, obviously, we've already talked about this very high. Yeah, it's fasting. Like, especially, I think, you highlighting religious practices throughout history in our religion 101 episode here definitely highlighted how ritualistic, like, fasting is one of the oldest rituals that mankind has. One of the oldest and most ubiquitous that mankind has. And so this feels like it's part of. Very much part of that tradition. Kayla: Yeah, agreed. Chris: And then finally, charismatic leader. I don't know Hugh Jackman. So then there's, like, the guy for the founder of Nerd Fitness, I should say his name.

2:12:59 Kayla: His name is Steve Camden. Chris: Steve Cam. Okay. But I don't know. Like, he's not really. Like, I feel like there's a lot of influencers, like you said, like, people on Instagram and Steve Cam, and I don't know Hugh Jackman. Like, people that do it and say, it worked for me really well. So I feel like there's a lot of sort of. Kayla: There is some proselytizing or, like, some. Chris: Proselytizing and evangelism, and there's, like, a network of influencers, but none of them are really, like, charismatic leader. Kayla: What about Linda Hazzard? Chris: That is not intermittent fasting. That is a murderer. Kayla: I love that. Her name's Linda Hazzard. Chris: Yeah, I know. Kayla: Stay away from Linda Hazard. Chris: I know. Kayla: She's a hazard for your health. Chris: That's right. And she has dukes. Okay, so my humor has just been terrible. That was an awful cut. That's really bad, because it's also because.

2:13:48 Kayla: We talked about so much poop. It's. I thought you meant dukes. Chris: Oh, that's what. When she poops, it's the Dukes of hazardous. Now that's a good one. There we go. This has been cult or just weird. Kayla: This episode is called the Dukes of Hacker. Please can it be. Please can we call it that? It's the quarantine. Who cares? Chris: We just have no concern for the quality of our podcasts anymore, ladies and gentlemen. No. So I would say his score is low on charismatic leader. So we've got to me, low expected har, low to little bit of expected harm, depending. Variable. Is it niche? No, it's pretty widespread at this point. Antifactuality, medium to high with some chance for light, motivated reasoning, percentage of life consumed. As always, that tends to be pretty variable. For me. I feel like it's low for past me, maybe it was higher for you. It was pretty high. Ritual, very high. Charismatic leader, pretty low. So I'm gonna go ahead and say not a cult on this one, based on the criteria and also based on just, I don't know, a lot of these ones are kind of hard. These ones that don't have, like, a group, you know.

2:15:05 Kayla: Right. Chris: These ones that are more like movements. Kayla: Right. But let's talk about. Let's go back to that paper that I read. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: About doctrinally accepted imposed anorexia. Chris: Oh, right. With, like, with breath Aryans. Kayla: I guess if that was just the example. Again, breathing. Not necessarily. You know, there are leaders and there are people, but there's not, like a single charismatic. Chris: Sure, you're right. So if it's like the cult of intermittent fasting could be referring more to the movement than, like, a group that meets at a commune. And I think that's something we've talked about in the show a lot before. Kayla: It's just something that exists on the Internet that everyone has access to, and no one's coming to your house and taking your food away from twelve to eight. It's just you going like, this is what has been decreed, and I will do it.

2:15:54 Chris: Boy, when I think about the, like, the network of mini charismatic leaders that are all sort of saying, like, this works. It's really good. Kayla: Are we all a charismatic leader? Chris: Yeah. Now, like, it's making me sway a little bit. Kayla: I think it's. I don't think it's a cult, but I think it's higher on the spectrum than we thought before I said that thing. Chris: Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. I think it's. It's close, but not close, but no cigar. But I think it could be. If it was like, let's say. Kayla: I think it could be. Chris: Some studies came out that said, like, oh, actually, this is pretty bad for you. And, like, kept happening. And then some of these influencers were talking about, you know, said, like, that's not real. That's fake news. Trust me. It affects your quantum telomeres. Then all of a sudden, I'd be like, okay. Actually, no, that's a cult. So that little. Yeah, not a cult, but close.

2:16:48 Kayla: Also fasting cult. Like, crazy stuff. Chris: It's weird. Kayla: It is weird. Chris: Not a cult, just weird. Kayla: All right, let's go eat. Chris: Yeah. I was gonna say, now that we've fasted for the last two and a half hours of recording, it's definitely time. Kayla: For me to eat. I have to eat every 3 hours. Chris: It's time for me to eat, and I'm a faster, so. Holy shit. Kayla: Thank you for being interviewed. Chris: You're welcome. I have a huge ego, so barely. Kayla: Fits in this room. Chris: Yeah, I enjoy things like that. That's it for this episode of culture. Just weird. Please go, like, share, subscribe. All those things. Kayla: Follow us on the social media. Chris: I really hate saying those because it just feels so like. Kayla: You don't have to say it then. Chris: I don't know why I do it.

2:17:28 Kayla: You kind of have, like, a tick, a compulsion. Chris: Like. Like, share, subscribe. Like, share, subscribe. Kayla: Stop saying it. Honestly, I think I'm gonna tell if you say it next time. Chris: I'm gonna say yeah anyway. Kayla: But go to our Patreon. Chris: Yeah, definitely go to our Patreon. Kayla: Basically because it's free and we want you to hear the stuff that we're doing. Cause we're doing some really cool stuff. Chris: Yes. And like how, like, imploring. Go listen to it. Jesus Christ. Come on, you guys. Kayla: Well, mostly because literally, we had a really interesting conversation about Waco. I have a really interesting tidbit that just doesn't fit here. But I need the people to know. That's right. I need the people to know. Chris: You need the people to hear your self described interesting conversations. Kayla: It's an interesting topic. I can't say that the conversation will be interesting.

2:18:10 Chris: You did. You said interesting conversation. Kayla: Well, the topic is interesting. It's a really interesting topic of conversation is what I meant to say. Chris: Yes. Go to our Patreon is what Kayla's saying. Stay healthy and stay sane out there. You guys. Kayla: Don't inject bleach into your. Chris: Please don't do that. Listen to science. Listen to experts. This is Chris, this is Kayla, and this has been cult or just weird?