S2E14 - The Volunteers (Voluntary Human Extinction Movement)

0:00 Chris: Let's go, then. Go, go. Kayla: I didn't tell you this. You know, my new boss does. Chris: No, I don't. Kayla: If, like, two people start talking at the same time, like, if she starts talking, someone starts talking at the same time, and, like, it's like she goes, go. I feel so validated. Chris: So, yeah, you feel vindicated. Kayla: She's like, go. No, no. Go, go. I love it. But not, like, mean or anything. Chris: Right? But that's a way of, like, cutting through the. The confusion of, like, people talking over each other on Zoom. That's not why you say go. You say go. Because we start a podcast, and you're like, and go. All right, so any business? No, no, we're just going right to it. There's no. You don't want to talk about Star Trek or.

1:19 Kayla: I definitely. I'm so fucking sick of Seinfeld. Chris: What about Seinfeld? You've been watching a lot of Seinfeld. Kayla: I'm so sick of Seinfeld. Chris: Yada, yada podcast. Kayla: I am so sick of everything. I am so sick of the pandemic. Chris: Are you sick of culture? Just weird. Kayla: I'm sick of this podcast. Chris: Why do we even do this? This is such a waste of time. Kayla: No, this is the only thing I'm not sick of. Chris: It's a horrible waste of time. Kayla: What are you doing? Chris: I don't know. It's just. I'm just trying to get you going the same way you get me going when it's one of my episodes. Kayla: I don't get you going. Chris: Exactly. You're always like, what's this bullshit? You have to come. Kayla: I don't think I do that. Chris: Okay, so seriously, no business? No nothing. Kayla: I don't have any business. Do you have business?

2:00 Chris: No. I mean, I don't know. Not really. Kayla: We're just here for a podcast. Chris: We're just here for a podcast. Kayla: What business? Chris: I don't know. Kayla: Do we have. Chris: I'm not feeling particularly creative today. Kayla: That's good, actually. Chris: There's my business. Kayla: Please. Announced that to. Chris: That's what you said last time. You were like, I'm tired. I'm not going to be able to say anything. Kayla: Oh, and then I did. Chris: Yeah, well, I did. I'm going to did as well. But remember the other day I was saying how I'm like, I just don't feel like I can make words good anymore. Kayla: Yeah, your brain is not good. Chris: It's just my. Yeah, I'm just. My vocabulary has been severely reduced for. Kayla: Some reason, probably because we're all living under the massive stress of living in a pandemic, the looming climate crisis, a world defining election coming up in our country that's going to crush the spirit of America either way. So, you know, just some stress.

2:57 Chris: Yeah, maybe that's why I can't word good. Yeah, I'll try to word as good as I can. Kayla: I don't know if my topic's gonna necessarily make anyone feel better. I don't think it'll make you feel worse. God, it's not gonna make you feel worse. Chris: We need to redo the intro for this episode because I'm like, I can't say words. And you're like, my top is gonna make people feel bad. Kayla: Well, I just. Maybe. Chris: Please don't tune out. Kayla: No, maybe not. Chris: That's the sound of a thousand listeners. Kayla: Turning their devices off when they finish listening to. Chris: Going over to reply all. You pop off, God damn it. Kayla: Okay, so lay it on me, Chris.

3:37 Chris: That's my name. Kayla: 2020 has been a hard year. A lot of uncertainty about the future. We are faced over and over again with humankind's apparent inability to get motivated to take care of each other, throw their lot in for the greater good. Chris: It's reducing my vocabulary. Kayla: It's reducing your vocabulary. The climate crisis looms large in all our lives with record breaking hurricane and fire seasons on the east and west coasts of the United States. All in all, it kind of seems like we might be doomed, but, so super doomed. I just wonder in all of this, have you ever thought maybe the world would be a lot better if all the humans just disappeared?

4:18 Chris: Yeah. Like every five minutes. Kayla: Yeah. Well, same. Chris: But don't worry. That's coming up. Kayla: Well, let's talk about some of the ways in which that might come up, because we're not alone in this sentiment that I'm sure a lot of people are sharing right now. In fact, the group we're talking about today has coordinated an entire philosophy and movement around that sentiment. Chris: Are we talking about the left behind book series? Kayla: No, because I would never talk about that. Chris: Why not? That's definitely a cult. Kayla: Isn't that one of the books you threw into the garbage? Chris: No, that was. Kayla: Oh, that was a Dune book. Chris: That was the Kevin G. Anderson and Brian Herbert wrote about the. What's it called? The boat, Larry in jihad. And it was like, is that in Dune? Yeah, it's like a dune backstory. And they tackled writing a book about it. And I really like Dune. I really like the original Dune series garbage. Yeah. By Frank Herbert. But that one was so horrible, and just. It was. I don't want to get into, like, the reasons it was bad, just a lot of details. But, yeah, I was. I was sitting there. I think I was in the can.

5:24 Kayla: You were on the toilet? Chris: Yeah. And I was just like. I got to a point where I was just like, nope. And I chucked it under the garbage. Kayla: That's so shocking, because you're such a completionist. You made me watch the worst movies to completion, the worst tv shows to completion. Chris: I know. I do things to completion that I shouldn't do. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So that should tell you how bad this book was. It was horrible. Kayla: Do you remember you then took a picture at Comic Con with the guy who wrote it? Chris: Oh, yes. Because he's. I just. You know, I'm. Now that we're, like, media members or whatever, because we're podcasting, I probably shouldn't say things like this, but I really don't like Kevin J. Anderson's writing. Really. It's, like, offensively bad. He's written, like, all these Star wars extended universe, but this was, like, before Star wars was Disney and, like, ubiquitous.

6:14 Kayla: Right. Chris: And so the only way you can get your Star wars fixed was by, like, reading these novels. Who reads nobody anymore? But I just. I tried reading a couple his things, and it just. It was bad. I couldn't. It was just. I don't know, man. Kayla: And then you took a picture with him. Chris: Yeah, exactly. And you were like, comic Con is for Kayla. Kayla: He's such an idiot. Anyway, I can't find that picture for this episode. Chris: I don't know why we're talking about Dune and Star wars. Kayla: We're not talking about left behind. Chris: Oh, right. Yeah. I do eventually feel like I should read left behind. Kayla: Go ahead. Today I want to talk about the voluntary human extinction movement. Chris: The what? Kayla: The voluntary human extinction movement.

6:54 Chris: I love that name. Hold on. Is that a good acronym? Kayla: Oh. Oh, yes, it is. Just wait. Just wait. Chris: Vehement. Kayla: Just wait. Chris: That's not that good. Kayla: Just wait. So I was gonna. In my notes, I'm like, before we get into it, have you ever heard of these guys? But apparently you have not. Chris: No. Kayla: It's interesting. Cause I, like. I think I first learned about them back in, like, high school or college or something, so I'm, like, shocked that I wouldn't have already talked about. Talked about this with you. Chris: I don't know. Like, I've definitely heard thing. I've definitely heard about groups that are like, oh, you shouldn't have kids, and, oh, you should. You know, whatever. Live minimalists or whatever. But I don't know if I've heard about these guys. Kayla: Voluntary human extinction movement.

7:35 Chris: Yeah, I have not heard of that name. Kayla: I've learned about them a long time ago. Happy to hear that they're still going strong today. Most of my research comes from Wikipedia. Their own website, rationalWiki, the Guardian, inverse.com, comma, grist.org, comma, theoutline.com, comma, Facebook, a few other pages and places. Just getting that out of the way. I actually came to this topic while doing research on another topic. I was originally doing research on the. The quiverful movement. Chris: That's like the opposite. Kayla: It's literally the opposite. Like, it's the people that are basically, like, God just wants you to keep having babies. So, like, there's no such thing. Chris: It's Christians only, right? Kayla: It's a christian, like, thought movement.

8:15 Chris: Okay. Kayla: And it's basically. Chris: So. It's not like a religion. Kayla: It's not like, it's not a religion. Chris: Like, like Methodists or. Kayla: No, it's like you are quiverful if you are christian and you believe that, like, be fruitful and multiply means you don't do any sort of, like, it's not even just, you don't wear condoms or take the pill. It's like you don't do any sort of family planning. You do not try and coordinate your lovemaking around. Chris: I thought it was even more than. It was like they were trying to have as many kids as they possibly could. Kayla: Well, it's like you're trying to have as many kids as God wants you to have. Chris: Got it? Kayla: Like that. You're trying to quiver. That is your quiver. And that's why. That's how they also, like their kids are arrogant. Account for couples that can't have kids. It's like it's all in God's hands.

8:56 Chris: Oh, I see. Okay. I didn't realize that, like, I didn't realize that there was that sort of peaceful resignation. I don't know, like, in God's hands. I didn't realize it. I thought it was like, just about, like shooting kids out, like arrows. Kayla: Well, I think you're just trying to shoot kids out if that's what God wants you to do. Chris: Yeah. I didn't realize that they were like, cool, you can't have kids. Kayla: That's kind of, well, we're not doing them as a topic today. I wouldn't necessarily say, like, it's nice and they're just cool with it. I wouldn't say that either. Chris: Okay. Kayla: It just was. I wanted to do a little bit of a. I wanted to do a topic that I wouldn't have to go down a goddamn rabbit hole on. Chris: That's serious. Kayla: And I I didn't have to do it on this one. I didn't. This is, like. This is actually a straightforward episode. It's really nice.

9:40 Chris: Oh, wow. Kayla: Yes. Chris: I am pre refreshed at that. Kayla: It is refreshed. I'm refreshed. If I had done quiverful, it would have been way more of a rabbit hole. And I was just like, next season. I can't do this right now. I can't do this right now. Chris: So you found something that was opposite of quiverful? Kayla: Well, I learned that the quiverful movement, it's a philosophy that fits under the umbrella of something called natalism, which is basically a worldview that promotes procreation as the be all, end all. It's seen often in western christian religions and schools of thought, like quiverful. And you even see this in public policy with tax incentives for having children in general, most societies in the world operate under some form of natalism.

10:23 Chris: Yeah, I guess now that you're saying that there's sort of, like, an unspoken society has sort of. This sort of, like, it's oriented towards having kids is good and moral and ethical, even though it's just what you do. Not necessarily any of those. It's. It's. I mean, I would. My argument is that it's not necessarily moral immoral, it's amoral. It's just a choice you make as parents. And, you know, and I would even argue that potentially a selfish choice, but not that's bad, but according to society, it's like, being a parent and having babies is, like, a good thing. It's like, something to strive towards.

11:04 Kayla: It's just. It's what you do and what you do. Yeah, well, when natalism gets extreme, like, the worldview can seek to limit contraception, it can seek to limit abortion access. It can also get, like, hell. Erase Catholics. Chris: Catholics are like, you shouldn't. You shouldn't even contracept. Kayla: Right. No contracepting. It can get hella racist. It often dovetails with white supremacist fears over the great replacement, which, like, white people are getting outpaced in births for, like, reasons. Like, just shut up. Everybody just shut up. Chris: I can see why that's a whole. God, I can see why that would be a rabbit hole because. Yeah, that's another whole thing. Yeah, you gotta outbirth the. Kayla: Just shut up. Chris: The people that have different color skin than us. Cause otherwise they're gonna outbirth us.

11:47 Kayla: God, I hate everyone. So we're not doing that. But naturally, I learned where there is a natalism, there is also something called antinatalism, which is essentially two new words to me. The opposite worldview. Chris: Fascinating. Kayla: Yeah. Antenatalism is the position that procreation is an undesirable outcome, and the pursuit of procreation is morally or ethically bad. Chris: Okay, so that's like, our musician for the show holds that. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Our musician for the show is. I mean, you tell us he's antinatalist. Are you antinatalist? Chris: I think he is. Kayla: I don't want to put words in someone's mouth. Chris: Well, we'll have to talk with them and get back to you, listeners. Kayla: Interestingly, it's an idea that has been around since at least ancient Greece, which I was kind of, like, fascinated to learn and is generally more of a school of philosophy than something that's really put into practice. Like natalism, is it.

12:41 Chris: When you say ancient Greece, is it like an idea that sprung out of the whole Athens from, you know, Aristotle to Plato type thing like that? Kayla: It was them just being like, is it ethical to, like, create life without their. Without the life's consent kind of thing? Chris: Yeah, I'm just wondering if it's like, when you say ancient Greece, if it came from that, like, philosophical, like, because it was only like, a, what, 40 or 50 year period where they had this, like, enlightenment period in ancient Athens, and they started developing, like, all the philosophy we get from, like, ancient Greece is from this period. Kayla: Yeah. It was like, Plato and Aristotle in those. Chris: That whole deal. Okay. Yeah. And, I mean, that's. That's interesting and makes sense because it's like, I feel like once you get to a certain level of affluence, which is, like, part of what birthed all that philosophy is that they had. I mean, a lot of it was like, the diverse trade routes and everything going through there. But anyway, when you have a certain level of affluence, it seems like that's when you start questioning, like, oh, like, is having babies just by itself a good thing, or is it like, a conscious choice?

13:44 Kayla: We will get to that. But yes, in general, as a society becomes wealthier, birth rates go down. Chris: Right. Kayla: We will get to that. Chris: Okay. Kayla: But yes, I don't think you're wrong. So obviously, the voluntary human extinction movement is antinatalist movement. You might be wondering, what does that mean? But like, no, I think I get it, frankly. Yeah. The group is pretty succinctly explained by its name, voluntary human extinction movement, which is an acronym, vhemt. And it is pronounced vehement. Chris: Oh, wait, what's the t? Kayla: Voluntary human extinction movement. Chris: Oh, they pull in the end of the word movement. Kayla: They're just trying to say vehement.

14:25 Chris: Ugh, I hate that. Kayla: Well, why don't you fucking tell them that? It's rude. Chris: Like, listen, man, if you're gonna make an acronym, you gotta use the first letters, maybe the second letters of each word and your acronym. Kayla: Do you know how many acronyms don't follow? Chris: I don't like any of them. Kayla: I'm sure there's some acronyms that you like. Chris: It's like the fondant of words. Kayla: You're a fondant of words. Chris: I'm a fount of words. Kayla: No, you're not, because your brain is. Chris: Now I'm like a. What do you call it when a fountain is not having water? Kayla: Just please shut up. So this movement is an environmentalism focused movement, and it calls for the extinction of humankind via voluntary abstinence from reproduction. Basically, this group believes that humans are the culprit behind the massive environmental degradation the planet has exhibited over the last several hundred years. And the only way to prevent mass extinction events of non human animals, widespread biodiversity loss and catastrophic climate change is to remove human beings from the equation. Human overpopulation is viewed as harmful to the overall biosphere. Proponents of the movement attempt to persuade other folks to commit to going child free or not having any further children.

15:38 Chris: Do they go for. Actually, I'm sure you'll probably say, we'll get to that. To this. But do they go further and say, like, you should kill yourself. Kayla: We'll get to that. Chris: Okay. Cause that seems like a logical next step here. That's a little. Kayla: Not necessarily. Chris: Okay. Kayla: They actually. Their position is that increasing human deaths does not actually do anything to address overpopulation. It's all about limiting human births. Also, they're very big on the vol, the v, and the voluntary. Chris: Okay, okay. Okay. Kayla: So when you make this commitment in support of vehement, you become known as a vehement volunteer or supporter. Any sort of violent or non consenting acts to decrease human lives are not viewed as desirable by the group, as the voluntary aspect is one of the most important. So, like, widespread killing off of people or mass suicides actually only increases the level of suffering on the planet, even when made in an attempt to decrease suffering. And also, just because you're limiting deaths or just because you're increasing deaths does not mean that you're decreasing births. So you're really not addressing the problem. You're not addressing the fact that all of these children are being born that grow into adults.

16:49 Chris: That's. While that's true in a simple mathematical formula, more deaths does equal fewer humans. Kayla: I mean, you'd have to kill a lot of fucking people. Chris: Sure. But like. Kayla: And they're not into that. Chris: There's an inflow and an outflow. Right. And they're saying they're really only interested in the inflow, which is fine, but I'm saying that it's not true that producing or increasing the outflow would also. Kayla: They're saying that their focus is on births instead of on deaths because their focus is only one place. If you only focused on the deaths and not the bursts, that you're not actually. Chris: Yeah. I mean, achieving your goal. Okay. If you've only focused on that, if. Kayla: You do both, that's a different story. Chris: Okay, so. Kayla: But they're not into killing people.

17:29 Chris: All right? That's because I'm really, what I'm driving at is like, can I murder people now? Kayla: No, not if you're envelope. If you're a. There's other groups we can talk about, but if you're in VMA. Chris: Oh, okay, well, just tell me which group I need to join to have it be like murder's. Kayla: Okay, just do it yourself. Chris: Just the human fund. Kayla: Yes. Chris: See, we've been watching Seinfeld. Kayla: I hate you. They also believe that as the earth's population gets smaller and smaller, life will improve for those still around before we all snuff out due to decreased crowding and increased access to resources. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Vehement, as mentioned, has its own website where it lays out a very detailed argument for the movement's stance, mostly in the forms of Q and A's, translated from English into 30 other languages. And it tackles topics such as the movement itself, biology and breeding, death, economics, politics, philosophy, failure and success. So it's like, literally you go on the website and you click on the first link and it takes you through this, like very long and very thought out Q and a that like, persuades you.

18:28 Chris: Really? Kayla: Yeah, it's really. And it just like flows from one to the other. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: It's really. It's a very well laid out. Chris: That was a broad selection of topics you just said. Kayla: It goes like the movement, then it goes to biology and breeding, then it goes to this and then that, and then it takes you through the entire thought process from a macro to a micro to a macro to a micro level. It's really fascinating. Chris: Were you persuaded? Kayla: We'll talk about it. The website started out as a paper newsletter back in 1991 called these Exit Times, but has since migrated to the digital domain starting in 1996. And blissfully and blessedly, it still looks like a website from 1996. And I love it.

19:12 Chris: That's like the new theme on the show. It's like old school Internet, man. Ever since you did the line, I'm just like, yeah, let's bring the Internet back to 1990 x. Yeah, because it was much more fun. Kayla: It was better. This website looks like it's from 1996 and I hope it never changes. Chris: Speaking of which, tangent, there's been more activity on culture. Just weird. Slash wait, no. Your world of text. Slash no. Kayla: Yourworldoftext.com culturejustweird, that thing. Chris: Whatever. I haven't bookmarked. Okay. Like all of our listeners, if you. Kayla: Want to tell it to people, you have to say it correctly. Chris: Anyway, it's been cool. Kayla: That's nice. The logo for vehement is a v behind an upside down globe with a vehement banner over it. And let me just read you how the website describes the logo. Like literally, this website is so detailed. V stands for voluntary, a value to keep foremost among us as conditions change. The v shape also depicts the confluence of logic and love to make a receptive and balanced point. Our world is shown undergoing a revolution of 180 degrees, the opposite view of what we're used to. Our direction must shift radically for us to preserve life and restore ecosystems. Also, upside down emblems are symbols of distress. The vehement concept goes over the whole world. Hanging banners is essential to getting our message across. Without a label, people don't know what to think. So that's thought process behind what their logo looks like.

20:36 Chris: You may get to this too, but are they getting their message across? How large is this group? Kayla: We'll get to that. In addition to their logo, they also have a motto which is, may we live long and die out. Chris: The website, hey, it's similar to live long and prosperous. You would get back to Star Trek. Kayla: We live long and die out. Let me now read to you how the website describes their logo. Because they literally have this whole page where they take the motto word by word and explain. Chris: Wait, did you say the logo or the motto? Kayla: The motto. Chris: Oh, okay. Kayla: They take the motto and they explain word by word why they've used those specific words.

21:16 Chris: Wow, they're very deliberate. Kayla: Yes, maybe live long and die out. May is a wish, not a command. Meaning freedom of choice. We also a month. Thats true. We includes all of us, not just them. Which means unity. No enemies. Live is what we have a right to do until we die. Peace and justice. Long is for as long as we can. Which isnt very good health and Social Security. And makes the connection between you explaining and yes, longevity and human extinction. Die is what we do. Living well includes dying well. So they support dignity and dying out describes our place in nature. Respect for all life. Chris: So that reminds me of when I was in fourth or fifth grade. Me and two other friends had this fake heavy metal rock band. Completely fake, no instruments or just a concept anyway. It was called flesh and blood.

22:09 Kayla: Oh yeah, you told me about this. Chris: So one of my friends was flesh, the other one was blood. And I was. And. Kayla: Are you proud of that? Were you proud of being the and. Chris: Yeah, I was. Anybody can be like a try hard edge lord. My name's blood. But I was the. And I was the thing that. I was the glue that held it all together. Kayla: Man, you kept it all together. Chris: And I was the absurdist joke, which I feel very much connection to, especially now. Kayla: So according to many sources, Viamet was founded in 1991 by a gentleman named Lesley. Lets you knight a pseudonym intending to sound like the founder's most ardent wish. Let's unite.

22:52 Chris: Oh, I thought it was supposed to sound like less. Kayla: No, like. Chris: No, like less people. Kayla: No. Les l e s u, period night. Spelled like a medieval night. Let's unite. Okay, according to Les Unite, he did not found the movement, he just gave it a name. He believes that the idea to preserve the biosphere by rejecting natalism been around as long as human civilization has been around. And it's just gone undocumented until recently. He also rejects claims that he is the leader of the movement and instead believes that everyone who commits to the values of vehement are the leaders of the movement. But I'd say for our purposes, we can consider Mister Knight to be our charismatic leader here.

23:32 Chris: Charismatic leader? Yeah. Kayla: And honestly, is he gonna pass that. Chris: Title on to his son? Kayla: No, we'll get to that. Chris: Oh shit, I thought I was making a joke. Kayla: No, we'll get to that. Chris: What? Kayla: Honestly, dude's got charisma. Chris: Oh yeah. Kayla: He is a charming older gentleman with silver hair and like this oxymoronic clean cut hippie aesthetic. He ran the newsletter. He ran. Chris: Did a picture for me. Funny, I was expecting more of like Silver Fox, but he's more of just like a nice little man. Like a charming old man. Kayla: Yeah, I love him. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So Les ran the newsletter. He runs the website. The vast majority of the content on there comes directly from him, as well as contributions from noted alt cartoonist Nina Paley, who contributes a lot of different cartoons for the site.

24:18 Chris: Wait, what? Kayla: Yeah, like, comics. Chris: Why is that a thing? Kayla: Because the whole website is written with, like, levity and humor. Like, even though Les is very, like, he's very serious about this. Cause it still, like, he uses humor and levity to, like, really discuss. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Chris: So this movement, this website that's about human extinction and, like, these existential sort. Kayla: Of chock full of jokes. Chris: Okay, yeah, sure. That is not expected, but neat. Kayla: They sell merch like t shirts and buttons and bumper stickers, and these bear the message, thank you for not breeding and other like, similar light hearted sayings. Chris: Okay, that is pretty light hearted. I'm not sure how I feel about the carbon footprint of making t shirts, but I don't know. We're probably gonna make t shirts.

25:04 Kayla: So the carbon footprint of making t shirts is like, if you don't have kids, you're. Chris: Oh, that's true. You're already weighing carbon footprint. I'm sure these people are probably all vegan too. Kayla: I actually don't know about that. I'm not sure. So this is, let me read you the prelim about the movement from the website. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Vehement, pronounced vehement, is a movement, not an organization. It's a movement advanced by people who care about life on planet Earth. We're not just a bunch of misanthropes and antisocial malthusian misfits taking morbid delight whenever a disaster strikes humans. Nothing could be further from the truth. Voluntary human extinction is the humanitarian alternative to human disasters. We don't carry on about how the human race has shown itself to be a greedy, immoral parasite on the once healthy face of this planet. That type of negativity offers no solutions to the inexorable horrors which human activity is causing. Rather, the movement presents an encouraging alternative to the callous exploitation and wholesale destruction of Earth's ecology. As vehement volunteers know, the hopeful alternative to the extinction of millions of species of plants and animals is the voluntary extinction of one species, homo sapiens. Us.

26:08 Kayla: Each time another one of us decides not to add another one of us to the burgeoning billions already squatting on this ravaged planet, another ray of hope shines through the gloom. When every human chooses to stop breeding, earths biosphere will be allowed to return to its former glory. And all remaining creatures will be free to live, die, evolve, if they believe in evolution and will perhaps pass away as so many of nature's experiments have done through the eons. It's going to take all of us going. Chris: I have a few questions. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Why do you have to believe in evolution for it to happen? Kayla: That's one of the jokes. Chris: Oh, okay. I thought he was talking about the animals believing in evolution. Kayla: Yeah, that's the joke. Chris: I see. This is what I'm saying. I'm really slow today. Kayla: I'm slow all the time. Chris: Oh my God. I know. Get joke. All right. It's all fine. That was funny. I'm retroactively amused by it.

26:52 Kayla: Good. Chris: You know what? I'll ask the other questions later. Just keep going. Kayla: Okay. It's difficult to nail down the population of this group. Some numbers I found 400 people were on the vehement mailing list in 1995. The Facebook group has eight and a half thousand members. The Facebook page has 15,000 likes. Mister Knight claims that the vehement movement includes anyone who decides to forego procreation in an effort to help the planet's ecosystem. And therefore there are likely millions of members. Chris: Hard to pin down the number of members, but likely many. Kayla: Hard to pin that down, huh? Chris: Okay. But as far as, like, people that actually are involved with the movement consciously.

27:32 Kayla: I'd say several thousand. Chris: That's pretty small. Kayla: Like a dozen thousand. Chris: A dozen thousand? Yeah, we are. Our mental state is deteriorating rapidly on the show. Kayla: A dozen. Chris: So hopefully this works out, because otherwise we are, like, gonna just be saying gibberish on the next episode. Kayla: That's fine. While there may be anywhere from a few hundred to a few million supporters, there are no real formal processes for joining the movement and no real formal infrastructure surrounding it. In fact, Mister Knight believes that it would be detrimental for the VM movement to go offline and into the world in the form of physical support groups or in person meetups, largely because there is such diversity of thought amongst followers.

28:14 Chris: Interesting. Kayla: He believes that the only real thing in common between vehement followers is the following of vehement and trying to get involved in each other's lives in a more real world way will only create chaos and discomfort. I don't think it's such a great idea because we are a very varied group of people, and the only thing we really have in common is that we think that humans should stop breeding and we don't even agree on going extinct. There are people who are supporters of the movement who agree that the intentional creating of anyone, anywhere can't be justified today. But maybe someday, if we get down to a reasonable number, you know, like a million or so, then we'll rethink it. Chris: I feel like we should have had our musician interview live on the show for this one. I feel like bonus content. Yeah. Kayla: Maybe even something as basic as a woman's right to an abortion. There are vehement advocates who consider themselves pro life. The only thing that we absolutely agree on is that all humans should not conceive whenever possible. End quote. There are, however, the aforementioned Facebook groups, as well as several yahoo groups moderated by Mister Knight himself for those who do want to connect or those who want to argue against the group's philosophies.

29:14 Chris: So it's just kind of like a loose, sort of like promoting of an idea, but not really. Kayla: Basically, if you decide to stop having kids to support the earth's ecology, you are part of the VMIT movement. Chris: But it sounds like there's some level of connection because there's like a Facebook group, right? Kayla: Yeah, but the fate, like, mister, I. Chris: Mean, there's not do's. Kayla: Mister Knight is literally saying, like, you. Chris: Do not have, like a president and a treasurer. Kayla: You do not have to be a part of this movement. To be a part of this movement. Like, that's literally what he says. Chris: I'm just. Yeah, so I'm just like, trying to conceptualize, like, in my head, like, what is the group then? What makes the group? Is it just like the decision to. Kayla: Not have children in order to preserve Earth's ecology? Chris: Okay. Kayla: That makes you a part of this movement.

29:55 Chris: Okay. And then there's, is there any infrastructure beyond that? Like, it sounds like, I mean, they have a website and a Facebook group. So are like, is there like a discord or people chatting about it or their resources? Kayla: Facebook or on the Yahoo. Chris: Okay, so it's just people posting stuff there. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I mean, there could be, like, groups that are, like, not Mister Knight, because again, he's just like, I'm just, I am but one leader. Okay, there are, if you do decide you want to join the movement, there are a couple badges you can download and display. Chris: Okay, so that's a thing. Kayla: There's these little gifs of storks that you can share. Denote, like, there's like the Silver Snip award or the Golden Snip award. And it denotes whether you've either committed to not having or not having any more kids or that you've taken, like, more permanent measures to ensure this commitment, like, vasectomy, sterilization, that kind of thing, so.

30:45 Chris: Got it. The snip badge. Kayla: It's literally called, like, the snip something. The silversnip ward. Chris: Yeah, yeah. Kayla: And it's like a little stork flying with a pair of scissors like this in his mouth. Yeah. Chris: They bleeding? Kayla: No, but it's like. It's. It's. There's. There's fun. There's fun here. Chris: Yeah, it sounds. Yeah, levity. So if there's. Okay, so if there's not an organization to join, then how do, like, I'm assuming George Soros will send me a check, though, right? So does he send it? Does it just get added onto my protest check, or how does that. Kayla: I'm gonna just keep going. Chris: I just wanna know how to get my check. Kayla: If you don't get a check, you can, however, click the link on the website, join with other vehement volunteers and supporters, and then you find this page, and it's nothing about George Soros. And if you bring up George Soros again, I might kill you. But that's. No, you're not.

31:33 Chris: Silence me. Kayla: You're not wrong in that there are plenty of conspiracy theorists who believe global elites are trying to reduce the population. And so, like, I could see you looking at this and going like, oh, this is the global elites trying to reduce the population. Yeah, it doesn't fucking make any goddamn sense. But that's another story. I have another podcast about that specific thing. Chris: Bill Gates is trying to kill us. Wait, is he trying to kill us with the vaccination, or is he trying to track us? Kayla: Both. Okay, kill us, track us. Chris: Killing, track. Got it. Kayla: So if you click the join with other vehement volunteers and supporters link, you get welcome. Hooray for Earth and humanity. Vehement volunteers and supporters breed no more. A few billion more of us, and we'll save the planet once and for all.

32:17 Chris: Okay. I like these guys style now that I'm, like, getting it. Kayla: Yeah, it's cute. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: You may have already been a volunteer or supporter before. Hearing of the voluntary human extinction movement, millions of people around the planet have independently arrived at the conclusion that Earth's biosphere would better off without humans. A little further down the thinking process, and it becomes apparent that decreasing births rather than increasing deaths is the way to go. And voluntary methods are much more fun to advocate. We volunteers and supporters make up our own minds about life and what to do with it. Our diversity makes the movement strong. A wide range of religious, political, and social thought is represented among us. Even our unofficial motto, may we live long and die out, has room for differing opinions. Some prefer may we live well and die out. As explained below, supporters don't agree with the die out part of the motto. We'll get to that.

33:01 Kayla: However, the first word in vehement is voluntary. Although some who support vehement may also advocate involuntary solutions to our population density problems, they are not advocating for vehement when they do so. Chris: That sounds. Yeah, involuntary human extinction. Sounds like we're getting into, like, Hitler ish territory. Kayla: Yeah, we'll get to that. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Loosely, we relate to vehement in one of three ways, volunteer, supporter, and undecided. Vehement volunteer. All of us should voluntarily refrain from reproducing further, bringing about the eventual extinction of homo sapiens. So that makes you a volunteer, vehement supporter. Intentional creation of one more of us by any of us is unjustifiable at this time. But extinction of our species goes too far.

33:42 Chris: So would you say then, based on that these folks are technically homophobes? Kayla: Undecided? Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Maybe I'm a volunteer. Chris: Wait, is that what you're saying, or is that what they're saying? Kayla: This is what they're saying. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Maybe I'm a volunteer. Maybe I'm a supporter. I'd like to know more before I decide. So what do you think? Are you gonna run out and sign up? Chris: It sounds like I don't have to sign up. It sounds like I just have to not bang you. Kayla: No, they're very pro sex. Chris: Oh, okay. Okay. So I guess I just need to not procreate. Kayla: Yeah. Yeah, you just. You can. And you can be a part of this movement while if you've already had kids.

34:27 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: If you just decide to not have any more, you're still part of vehement. Chris: That sounds a little bit like having my cake and eating it, too. Like, it sounds like I'm just gonna have a couple kids, then I'm gonna join the movement. Kayla: And theoretically, you don't know about the movement, or you haven't reached the conclusion until after you've already, like, had kids. Chris: Okay, so the rule is if you have a kid after having learned about the movement, then you can't be part of the movement. Kayla: No, the movement just allows for people to be able to change their minds. I don't think that is weird. I think that's, like, how things should be, but it's easy to change. Chris: Your mind, if you like, what if you're like a family, has had like five kids and you're like, you know what, I'm done having kids. I'm gonna totally join this movement. It feels like cheating. Kayla: Cheating who? Cheating what?

35:08 Chris: Cheating the idea. It's cheating. Kayla: Mister Les, I think that Mister Les gets inside if Mister Knight, who he. Chris: Is going to embrace the second charismatic leader we've had with the last name of knight. Kayla: Yeah, I know, I thought about that. So you're not going to run out and sign up? Chris: No, but unless I get. Kayla: But what if this is the only way to prevent the looming climate crisis? Crime? It. Climate crisis, the crime rate crisis. What if this is the only way to protect Earth's biodiversity? Chris: I don't think. Kayla: What if this is the only way to truly live an ethical life? Chris: It sounds, by the way, that you are vehemently protesting to me that maybe you don't necessarily think that's a be all, end all solution either. But yeah, I don't think that. I think there are other ways to solve the climate crisis. I don't want to preempt you too much here, so please stop me if.

35:59 Kayla: I'm like, yeah, don't get into solutions now, because we can talk about solutions. Chris: All right. It's less about solutions. And I just wanted to make a comment of like, oh boy, it's in. Kayla: My notes right now. I have in brackets debate ethical merits of procreating. Chris: Oh, right here, yeah. Oh, well then, okay, so I will, because I think, and it sounds like these guys are actually deliberate and detailed and considerate enough that maybe they've given this some thought. And I just don't know enough about the movement. I'm gonna be putting words in their mouth. So if you're a veeam person, please forgive me if I'm doing that. But one of the things that feels a little weird to me for this and in for, and in some other, not just this movement, but other movements that are ostensibly like naturalist or environmentalist, is sometimes they can feel a little religious in a sense. And by that I mean, I don't mean specifically like, you go to church for it or anything, but more like, so when you say like, oh, let's preserve the biosphere because it's valuable. Valuable to whom? Why?

37:18 Chris: Like, I guess what I'm really getting at here is that I don't necessarily believe in the concept of inherent value. I don't think you can have a value. Something cannot have value without a valuer, without a person or a consciousness. Or something to value it. Now, maybe elephants are consciousness, have enough consciousness to value things, necessarily need humans. Orcas probably do. Octopi probably do. Kayla: Haven't you ever seen how bears sometimes just sit in the woods and appreciate nature? Chris: Yeah. So there's probably things that are conscious enough that value things. And, you know, maybe this is who that's for. But ignoring some of those cases just for the sake of argument here, if we're going to say, like, oh, we're going to preserve this valuable thing by removing the valuer, then it sort of is self defeating. Right? So I think that, like, and I'm not saying all environmental movements have that issue. In fact, I don't think a lot of it does. But that's, like, for me, I'm very personally invested in, like, sustainability, right? And like, a. Like, a human oriented view of environmentalism. I don't think that we're going to destroy the earth. I don't think we can destroy the earth or the biosphere.

38:28 Kayla: Right. Chris: Certainly we can do damage to it. Kayla: Whatever, and we can destroy ourselves, but. Chris: Exactly. That's what we can destroy. Right, right. Like, even if there's, like, a nuclear winter, we're still not going to get rid of, like, the bacteria living on, you know, vents at the bottom of the ocean. Kayla: Oh, my God. You think that. You think that our piddly little nuclear winter is gonna have any effect on the things living at the bottom of Mariana's trench? No, friend. No. Chris: Well, I mean, it might have something, but it will very little. Kayla: And actually, I think that it will have, like, nil. I think that there's, like, videos about this. Chris: Oh, really? Kayla: I feel like we've watched videos about this. We have also watched videos about, like, what happens if you blow. What happens if you blow up a nuke at the bottom of the trench and it's nothing. Nothing happens. It doesn't affect the rest of the ocean.

39:13 Chris: But I think there's also maybe evidence that we found, like, microplastics down there. I don't know. I don't want to get too speculative here, because we didn't do the specific research on this, but I do feel comfortable saying that, at least for me, the most important thing about environmentalism is human sustainability. Not about protecting some theoretical value, some mother nature or some, you know, the biosphere being valuable in and of itself. Right. For me, it's about human sustainability, because no matter what we do, a, we are part of the environment. We're not separate from it. And b, it will outlive us. Right. Whether we're the ones that cause our extinctions, or whether a meteor causes our extinction or something else causes our extinction, the earth and its biosphere will outlive us, right? And that's so that, like, that's not.

40:05 Kayla: Probably a livis no matter what we do, right? Chris: So the thing to worry about is not that the thing to worry about is how do we make. How do we make the place we live a viable place for us to continue living? Continue living well, and for potentially for future generations to also continue living well. Kayla: I'm gonna stop you there because we're gonna get into this a little bit more. A little bit later. Chris: But yes, that is my $0.07. It's more than two cent, because I just spoke for like, five minutes. Kayla: Seven, maybe it seems counterintuitive to you that there are followers of this movement, given that there is a deeply innate biological drive to procreate, as well as very strong natalism sentiments in our societies and religions around the world. Like, it's still really hard to be an adult human and not have kids without having people going like, what the fuck's wrong with you? You get a lot of pressure, right? But as it gets more and more expensive to live in western civilization due to a variety of factors. Cough, cough. Our shitty version of capitalism. Cough, cough.

41:08 Chris: Late stage mass consumer capitalism. Kayla: Cough, cough. And as it seems more and more likely that humans will be facing our own major extinction event in the next few years, thanks to the lack of political will from our leaders and elites to fix the climate crisis, many people. Chris: Will, where are you? Kayla: Will, we need you. Political will. Many people are choosing to go child free. I read articles from folks who recently encountered Mister Knight or his writings and found themselves soon converted to vehement beliefs. Rates of childlessness among adult women and couples has increased steadily since the 1950s, and some people will even argue that the desire for human extinction must be something many of us subconsciously desire, given our vehement dedication to destroying the planet and thus destroying ourselves.

41:50 Chris: Right? Kayla: Like, I'll link this really interesting inverse article by Yasmine Taehyung titled the Voluntary Human Extinction movement is both anti republican and anti deaf. By supporting reproductive freedom and gender equality, Bernie and Hillary are preventing destruction by overpopulation. And it all talks about, like, how we trying to kill ourselves. Chris: So it sounds like that was from 2016 because it mentioned Bernie Hillary. Kayla: Okay, yes, sweet summer child. And I'll link some other articles that talk about the same thing about how, like, do we live in a. Like, are we a suicide cult? Given the way we treat our environment. Very interesting. Chris: Are we being sort of human? Kayla: Humankind? Chris: Oh, humankind. Kayla: Yeah, we don't need to. We'll get into it.

42:34 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Now, to better understand this movement, let's talk a little bit more about what it isn't. As mentioned before, vehement isn't a suicide cult. They do not advocate a rise in human deaths. It's all about helping people choose to limit births until we all die. It's honestly pretty gentle and like, while talk about overpopulation and population control can often and quickly devolve into eugenicist ideals, vehement is very anti eugenics. They have. Chris: Yeah, I mean, so far, what you've told me about these people, they sound pretty reasonable and rational. And that's why I was even hesitant to, like, give my $0.07 earlier, is because I'm not. Kayla: Yeah, you should give your sense.

43:14 Chris: Well, yeah, but I'm not sure that's actually at odds with what they're saying. They may be certainly with the diversity of members that they talk about. I'm sure there are some people in their movement that would feel the same way that I do, that it's less about some inherent value of, quote, the environment, and more about sustainability. Not necessarily extinction. I think it's the extinction thing that maybe tweaks me a little bit, is. Kayla: That it's like there's definitely that debate within them movement. Mister Knight very much has reached the conclusion of like, humans will always tend towards this. So even with the best of intentions, we just gotta get rid of ourselves, because given the opportunity, we will always tend back towards industrialization. That leads to destruction of the ecology. I don't necessarily agree with that.

44:08 Chris: Yeah, I don't necessarily agree with that either. Replace that with. If you replace, humans will tend towards this, with animals will tend towards it, or actually even life forms will tend towards this. Then I agree with him. I don't think it's a human thing. You see this everywhere. For example, when you remove predators from a population, let's say you overhunt wolves in Yosemite National park, then the predated species end up overpopulating and wreaking environmental disaster. They over consume their resources, and then they have a population crash. This is something that happens across the natural world for, I think, like, everything. And so it seems like that is just something we share with our fellow life forms on earth.

44:57 Kayla: Right. Chris: With the one exception that we seem to have a. Kayla: We're able to be aware of it. Chris: We're able to be aware of it and maybe stop it. Like, that's the one thing that seems different. And we should endeavor towards that. But that doesn't mean that we're like, humans are special and we should extinct ourselves because humans are going to just fuck everything up. Kayla: Right. Well, going back to the eugenics thing, they're very anti eugenics. They have whole sections of the website arguing against ideas, like, but I have good genes, shouldn't I pass them on? Or. But it's the wrong kind of people that are having babies. Like, this comes up over and over again. Chris: And why that a lot. Yeah, a lot on like, the wrong people having babies. That's not just like the racists, that's also like people on the quote unquote good guys.

45:40 Kayla: And I would argue that those people are also racist. Chris: Yeah, yeah, of course. But you see that on the, like, you know, the liberal side where it's like, oh, you know, we're gonna have an idiocracy because all the dumb people are having kids. Kayla: Or even like, people like Bill Gates talking about like how poor people in Africa, we like the overpopulation of Africa is a problem because the poor people in Africa are. It's like, right, that, right. You are coming at it with a liberal attitude and you are still being eugenicist. You are advocating eugenics for sure. And that is shitty and bad. Chris: Yeah, it's very easy to fall into that, and it's dangerous. Kayla: Vehement is generally a pro choice group. They're not about forced abortion in any way, shape or form. They're not gonna be like, oh, yeah, the wrong people are having babies. Mister Knight often talks about how millions or billions of people in the world, particularly women, are not given choices about the reproduction. And he has no interest in recreating that kind of human suffering in the vehement movement. Right now, vehement isn't the only group that advocates for a reduction in the human population in order to save Earth's biosphere. And it's true, some of these groups can get pretty extreme. Maybe you've heard of another semi famous antinatalist group, the Church of Euthanasia. How have I never talked to you.

46:56 Chris: About no rings a bella? Well, you probably, you talked about so much weird shit. Kayla: Yeah, that's true. The Church of Euthanasia is a religious organization founded in 1992 that is, quote, a non profit educational foundation devoted to restoring balance between humans and the remaining species on earth. While they still believe in voluntary human population reduction, their methods skew a little more intense than vehement. Their slogans? Chris: You don't say. Kayla: Yeah, their. Their slogans include save the planet, kill yourself. Chris: Okay. Their slogan's way better, though. Kayla: 6 billion humans can't be wrong. And my personal favorite, eat a queer fetus for Jesus. Chris: Oh, my God. Well, they gotta get their slogan guy working like, yeah, that's. He's. He's doing the Lord's work there.

47:46 Kayla: Their one commandment is thou shalt not procreate. And their four main pillars are suicide, abortion, cannibalism of the dead, and sodomy. Ie. Chris: What are those last two? Kayla: Any sexual practice not intended for procreation. Chris: Okay, okay. I get that one then. It seems a little redundant with number one, but whatever, because then you're eating. Kayla: People instead of eating other animals. Chris: Oh, okay. Okay. Kayla: It's like, kind of keeping it in a, like, closed loop, right? Chris: But what if you just, like, you're sick of the red meat and you want some white meat? Kayla: Can I at least, isn't humans the other white meat? Chris: Oh, humans are red meat. Kayla: We like pork, and pork is the other white meat. Chris: Oh, are we like pork? I don't know. I haven't had human yet. Kayla: I think we're close to horse.

48:28 Chris: Horse. I also haven't had horse yet. Kayla: I don't want to eat a horse. Chris: You don't want to eat horse? Kayla: No, I don't want to eat horse. So, yeah, so there's suicide, abortion, cannibalism, and sodomy. Chris: Boy, I bet they're really popular with the christian right. Kayla: Well, yes. Vehement skews a little tongue in cheek and gentle with its ideological promotions, Coe uses absurdism, publicity stunts, sermons and performance art to bring attention to overpopulation and often gets into direct conflict with christian pro life activists. Chris: So, you know, weird. Kayla: A little different than what we've been talking about. And of course, not to get too dark on this episode. Chris: No, we've only talked about extinction and cannibalism, but, yeah.

49:11 Kayla: Mass forced sterilization efforts have been employed by countries around the world, perhaps most notably by the US, in order to curb population growths of various demographics. The United States has a lengthy history of forcibly sterilizing women from minority groups, particularly indigenous women, in programs that existed up until as recently as the late 1970s. And those programs grew out of a pro eugenic sentiment that ran and runs rampant in american society. I mean, yeah, you only need to take a look at the recent reports of the forcible sterilization of women detained by Ice in our current concentration camps to see the extreme unethical methods that are employed to control populations and they're just following vehement. No, no. These are methods that vehement is against. Other countries have utilized this method, notably India in the 1970s.

50:00 Kayla: And they would do this really fucked up thing where they would, like, offer money to women that were, like. There were groups of women that they were trying to prevent from having children and they'd be like, I'll give you money to get sterilized. And then if you didn't accept the money, they would sterilize you anyway. Chris: Oh, God. Kayla: So that happened in the 1970s. Uzbekistan had a program in the 2010s where after a woman had a second child, she would be sterilized without her knowledge. That was a big problem. And, of course, I know what you're. Chris: Gonna talk about here. Kayla: Yeah, no, you don't. I'm just gonna say the German Nazis after this. Chris: Oh, I thought you were gonna say the one child policy in China. Kayla: I didn't want to get into that because it's a whole mess. Has a whole mess over there. Chris: I thought. Yeah, I thought you said this was, like, not a rabbit hole.

50:42 Kayla: Yeah, that's why you just listed, like, seven rabbit holes. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: This is the one child policy in China that vehement is also against. And then, of course, the German Nazis, after they studied us eugenics programs. So mass sterilization or, like, forced antinatalism has been a thing. But again, swell. These extreme methods are not a part of the VMIT movement. And Mister Knight goes to great length on his website to dispel any worries curious individuals may have. Side note, while I've given extreme examples here of government enforced antinatalist policies, there are many more examples of government supported natalist policies. JFY. Like encouraging your populations to have kids? That's in what way more common? We'll get to that. Now, look, I'm as terrified of the impending climate crisis as the next gal, but mostly for, like, existential reasons.

51:34 Chris: Sure. Kayla: I'm not gonna lie. I do think vehement is kind of persuasive in their messaging. Chris: Okay, so when I asked you before, did they persuade you from that list of logo explanations or. Wait, what was it? Kayla: They had a may we live long and die out. Chris: Yeah, I don't know. You described a few different things on their website as persuasive. So you were persuasive. Kayla: I think vehement is persuasive in their messaging. Like, humans, particularly industrialized countries since the industrial revolution have not done the greatest job of sharing the planet with other animal and vegetable life forms. I dont think you can really make a reasonable argument that doesnt firmly place the onus of the climate crisis on people and our various emissions. The current mass extinction event is also probably our fault. We have an extremely high population that has boomed since the 18 hundreds. We created single use plastic that fills up our landfills and oceans for thousands of years, if not longer. We do things like strip mining and our distribution of resources is so fucked up that millions of people go hungry every day. With thousands of those people dying.

52:38 Kayla: Millions of people are without homes, again, with many of those people dying on the daily we go to war over resources. We drive species to the brink of extinction for resources, often useless resources. We do factory farming that pumps countless tons of greenhouse gases into the air and drastically increases the amount of animal suffering on the planet. We've just. We've not done the best job of being stewards of this land. So I understand the argument that we've proven ourselves to be incapable of being a part of this planet. So maybe we should just bow out and let the animals have some peace and quiet. Chris: So is this why Kayla thinks that they may be right? I mean, I guess sort of by definition, right? Kayla: It's pretty. Tried to be objective. Like, it's pretty objective that we've done things that have contributed to ecological collapse.

53:24 Chris: Yes, there's a few things. I don't know if it's necessarily counterpoints, but again, I kind of go back to my, like, you know, who is affected by the ecological collapse? Like, if we are, then it's a stain, it's a sustainability thing, right? If. If you're saying that it's like, the problem is that we're killing off other species, you know, then we do have to get into, like, the ethics of, like, I don't know, predation and sharing the planet. Kayla: And, like, we're one of the only species. Chris: The value of a human life versus the value of, like, we're one of. Kayla: The only species that has such an effect on overall biodiversity, not just on, like, we killed off too many bunnies. Like, we have a negative effect on the overall biodiversity of the entire planet that other animals generally don't.

54:10 Chris: Yeah, we have an outsized effect for sure. Kayla: Vehement is just one rung in a very tall ladder of groups and movements and academics and the like trying to bring awareness to the issue of human overpopulation and in its effects on the planet. In the seventies, the zero population growth movement gained traction after the release of the 1968 book the population bomb by american biologist Paul Ehrlich. Oh, you've heard of that book? Chris: I've heard of that book. And the movement. Yeah. Kayla: Zero population growth movements seek to basically balance the birth rate with the death rate. Ideally, after we've achieved, like, the optimum population number, which is still up for debate. A lot of folks actually get to vehement after being a part of the ZPG movement. It's like a somewhat logical pipeline for some folks. The UN warns that the earth population will reach unsustainable numbers in the next 30 years. Bill Gates has discussed the effects of overpopulation in regards to his humanitarian efforts. Intellectuals like Thomas Malthus in the 18 hundreds and even as far back as Plato and Aristotle have warned of the devastating effects overpopulation could have on the planet. And humanity in Malthus is like the.

55:14 Chris: Like the urtain. Kayla: Right. Chris: Overpopulation guy. That's why they referenced malthusianism on the website you read earlier. Kayla: He also was like, poor people are responsible for their problems. Chris: Well, yeah, but again, that's like, not just him. Kayla: No. Chris: Right. That's like a common theme that is kind of makes you. It's a little bit of a red flag, so. Yeah, but his thing specifically was he had this very specific, like, oh, we can increase our, you know, capacity to feed people earth arithmetically. Arithmetically, I don't know, by adding. But human population grows geometrically by multiplying.

55:55 Kayla: Yeah, that's true. So he was a dummy. Chris: Yeah, well, it turns out he was wrong. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And you actually can. So. Yeah, I know. We'll get to that, but that's one of the potential arguments against is that, like, new technologies lead to new ways of converting resources for human use. Kayla: Basically, we just need to figure it the fuck out. Like, that's. We'll get to that, but, like, we just need to figure it the fuck out, guys. A number. But right now we're in the, like. Here's why you should be a vehement person section. A number of Nobel Prize winning scientists have listed human overpopulation as one of the greatest threats facing mankind. So clearly, vehement is trying to solve a very real problem with its methods. And it's obvious that Mister Knight and others involved with the movement have thought very hard and very rationally about this topic. They even have a whole chart dedicated to every possible thought one might have that goes against vehement.

56:45 Chris: Wow. Kayla: The real reason behind the thought and a better alternative. So. Chris: Okay, sounds like they're ready for like a Lincoln Douglas style debate. Kayla: They are ready. So this is like, this is the chart that they have for why breed? Reasons given, real reasons, suggested alternatives. Chris: Okay, I can. Kayla: I'll read them for you. So it says, like, reasons given. I can't help it. It's a biological urge. Real reasons, unexamined motivations, suggested alternatives. Institutions await those who can't control their biological urges. Chris: Wait a minute. Like, if you. I think that one's just saying, like, I really like having sex, though, right? Like, that's not. You don't need an institution. Like, well, you can just get your snip badge for you.

57:27 Kayla: Yeah. This person is saying, I can't help not, I can't help breeding. It's a biological urge to breed. They're saying, yeah, I don't think that's the result of having children. Chris: I'm pretty sure the biological urge is to boink. Kayla: You don't think there's a biological urge to have children? I think there absolutely is. Chris: Oh, you think so? Kayla: To proc. Yes. Chris: You don't think that's, like, a societal thing? Kayla: No, I mean, I think that it is a societal thing, but I think that, I think in our animal brains, like, I think that's part of what life is. Procreation. Chris: Right. There's, like, your, the DNA wants to make itself copied. Kayla: Need help on farm or in family business. Real reason, too cheap to hire help. Child labor laws. Inconvenient alternative mechanization. Gives faster return on investment.

58:15 Chris: Is this whole thing kind of jokey? Because now that you say the thing about the biological urge, I'm just like, I'm pretty sure that they're wrong about that. Kayla: Okay, well, here's a reason given to carry on family name. Real reason. Trying to please dad. Duped by bloodline superstition. Alternative. Create something enduring and give it family name. Donate blood to pass on bloodline. Chris: Like, okay, so it's like this whole thing is, like, at least 50% tongue in cheek. Kayla: My wife. Husband wants a baby. Giving in out of fear of losing partner. Communicate true desire. Spouse may feel you're the one who wants to breed. Like, it really does go through and go, like, there are reasons behind this, and there are alternatives to consider.

58:57 Chris: Okay. Kayla: They're also, they're also very, they're very pro adoption, foster parenting, volunteering with kids. Like, like, for, you know, if you're just like, I just love kids. Well, here's other ways to feed that need. So what do they think? Here's the best one. I just want to, just wants to, choosing to breed includes most other things. You'll just want to do so we've got a whole chart laying it all out for you. But okay, let's also not fully jump on this bandwagon and decide to off ourselves or whatever. There is another side to the story.

59:38 Chris: I was gonna off other people. Kayla: That's not part of this. Oh, there is another side to the story, and I think it often gets left out of the conversations regarding climate change and overpopulation. Worries and fears about human overpopulation may be misguided or focusing on the wrong thing first. These viewpoints often separate humans out from the rest of ecology, as if we somehow aren't part of nature. Vehement pointedly does this and will make a strong argument for humans having kind of seceded from being a part of nature and are now instead like foreign parasitic investors invaders, but also investors. Chris: You could maybe make the argument are also parasitic. So. But unless you invest in this podcast anyway, go ahead.

1:00:22 Kayla: We love you, invest in us. But it's just as reasonable to discuss the reality that human beings are animals and we're just as much as part of the earth's ecology as any other living thing. In fact, arguments can be made that intellectually removing ourselves from nature is part of the problem. If we don't see ourselves as part of the greater whole, we therefore don't act as part of the greater whole. We don't behave as if we're a part of the planet's ecosystem, and that's where things can get kind of fucked up. Chris: Spoiler alert. I agree with that. Kayla: Yeah. Many indigenous groups claim that the problem with people in regards to destroying the planet isn't that we're inherently bad for the planet, it's that our western industrialized capitalist consumerist behaviors are bad for the planet. Vehement and others argue that there are too many humans, which leads to resource scarcity, whereas indigenous peoples and some western scholars such as Barry Brownstein and research journalists such as Kelsey Piper will argue that the issue isn't resource scarcity, it's a failure to distribute resources equitably. You can make a very strong argument that people are starving to death the world over, not because there isn't enough food, but because many industrialized rich countries overconsume and waste food.

1:01:29 Chris: Yeah, I mean, there's a certain, like, ugh, it'd be hard to get into the economics of all this in a timely manner, but there's a certain incentive to, like, not distribute food to everybody that needs it in order to preserve price points to maximize profit. Kayla: Right? Chris: Not to say you couldn't earn profit by distributing things equitably, but you maybe couldn't maximize profit. And if that's the only thing that you're trying to maximize, then that's a design thing, right? Kayla: It's a design problem. Chris: It's a design problem. You've designed the system to maximize this particular KPI. And as long as that's the only thing you're maximizing, you're going to generate these outcomes, right? I'm not sure I agree. I mean, they know way more than me, but I'm not sure I agree that it's only a distribution problem. I think there is some scarcity baked into the issue, but I would have to know more about what they say to say whether I fully agree or disagree with these people that are smarter than me.

1:02:22 Kayla: From rts.com. The United States is the global leader in food waste, with Americans discarding nearly 40 million tons of food every year. Chris: Ooh, Marka. Kayla: 80 billion pounds of food and equates to more than $161 billion. Approximately 219 pounds of waste person and 30% to 40% of the us food supply. Chris: Man, that is a lot of. Hey, are you going to finish that? Kayla: It's a lot of waste. And I'm not saying that individuals should be boxing up our leftovers and sending them to less fortunate people. I just think that it's a design problem in the way our food is distributed around the globe. Chris: Right? There's a lot of different places along the value chain that food waste happens.

1:03:02 Kayla: Right? It's not just people letting lettuce wilt in their fridge. It's. Again, it's not always just the individual, it's often it's large corporations. Chris: Side note, I don't want to, like, get on a too much of a high horse here, but all those ads you see on your Facebook page about the ugly fruit and the ugly produce there. Kayla: Yeah, imperfect produce. Chris: Imperfect produce. I mean, I'm not like, if you want to go ahead and do that, cool, more power to you. But that is like the least place where food waste actually happens. Kayla: That food gets used. Chris: That food all does actually get used. Like, if it's an ugly tomato, like, they have pretty tomatoes. Go out and be tomatoes that people buy in the produce section of your grocery store. The ugly tomatoes just get made into salsa. Yeah, like, so you're not actually really saving anything by doing that. You're just giving them perfect produce money to make yourself feel better.

1:03:51 Kayla: Fuck you. Imperfect. Chris: Sorry. Fuck you. Anybody that's trying to incrementally make things better. Kayla: How dare you? Chris: Yeah, you dumbasses. Kayla: Let's also talk about housing. We can make everyone feel bad about that. So specifically, hold on. Chris: Can we, like, somehow make people not feel better? Kayla: Let's talk about housing in the US. Maybe it seems like we have overcrowding and a lack of housing due to the steadily rising homeless population in our major cities, but that's also not necessarily correct. From checkyourfact.com, there are 17 million vacant homes in the US and between 500 to 600,000 homeless individuals living without shelter. That is 31 vacant units for each homeless person. Again, lack of shelter, like lack of food, seems to be a distribution problem, a problem of consumerist capitalism, rather than an actual scarcity issue.

1:04:39 Chris: Kayla, I don't think we should give. Kayla: Each homeless person 31 houses if it'll fix homelessness. Chris: Well, can I have, like, half of one or something? Kayla: Our free house is for everyone. That's my. That's. That's my stance. Let's also talk about factory farming. Chris: Hold on, sorry, do you have any answer for, as to, like, why that. Kayla: Is, other than it's the same. It's the same with the food thing. It's like, okay, it's pricing. Yeah. We don't give things away for free. We sell them. Chris: Right. And there's an incentive to maximize profit. Yeah. Kayla: Even though technically, when you look at the math, it is actually cheaper for governments to provide housing than to care for a homeless population.

1:05:23 Chris: Right. But we do a lot of things that are inefficient because. And this is where it gets into, like, monopoly math with not monopoly the game, but monopoly the concept supplies and demand curves. And also. And that gets into the part you were just talking about gets into game theory a bit, too. So that would be way too much to get into. Please continue. Kayla: No rabbit holes in this one. Let's talk about factory farming. Again, factory farming, specifically the factory farming of meat products, contributes greatly to climate change. Meat consumption is on the rise worldwide as countries that industrialize tend to eat more meat. So is it inevitable that environmental degradation follows human advancement? Not necessarily.

1:06:03 Chris: I mean, if the more Michaela Petersons. Kayla: We have out there, Mikayla Peterson. Get out of here ruining the planet. Chris: We need more soy. Kayla: Boyd, perhaps the more useful tool here to discuss rather than voluntary extinction is working towards a culture shift that phases out harmful factory farming that tends to emit greenhouse gases and results in extensive waste. Again, I will cite indigenous activists who generally do not lead vegan lifestyles and regularly consume meat. But the argument there is that the consumption of meat is done in a way that is part of the naturally occurring ecosystem. Meat is hunted when it is needed. The entirety of the animal is used for food and products. Perhaps. Again, the issue here is consumer capitalism and not necessarily humans themselves. I mean, humans lived for thousands of years alongside nature without drastically damaging the ecosystem. The turn that we're really grappling with right now is the industrial revolution.

1:06:53 Kayla: So it's like, we need to figure out how to be industrialized without destroying our home. And there are cultures that exist today that still live sustainably alongside nature. So one could argue that perhaps the conversation shouldn't be this blanket humans are bad for the planet statement, which is, like, kind offensive to people who are, like, living sustainably. Chris: Right. Kayla: And essential focus on these particular human relationships to the planet aren't feasible. Chris: Right. There's solutions to these problems. Like, we can feed people, we can house people. It's possible we can even house and feed more people than we currently have. It's just, we need to. We need to do it. We need to do it in a. Kayla: Way that doesn't kill ourselves. Chris: Yeah. We need to do things differently, or else we're gonna be on fire in California for the rest of time.

1:07:38 Kayla: Yeah, I don't like that part. We hinted on this before at the top, but here's what we'll talk about. We're, like, somewhat paradoxically, deveyman's position. As countries become more industrialized, birth rates actually go down. And it's because in countries where women have more access to education and birth control, in countries where farming and agriculture are not the main vocations, people have fewer and fewer babies. It's why you'll see pronatalist government campaigns in places like Japan and Denmark trying to convince couples to have babies to get the birth rates up. So it's like these places like Denmark and Japan will have, like, these really interesting ad campaigns. Like, there's one called do it for Denmark, where they were like, you gotta bang your spouse. For Denmark, have a baby.

1:08:22 Chris: Was it specifically spousal? They weren't like, yeah, just bang whoever. Kayla: I don't remember. It was just. It was, do it for Denmark was the ad campaign. Chris: Okay, okay. It's interesting. I read something, I forget what it was. I'll have to find it. So you can put it in the show notes. But it was talking about the population growth curves of, like, a variety of different nations over the last, like, you know, several hundred years. And how, I guess thesis of this particular article was, like, people prior to having things like sanitation and, like, really good natal care and really good, like, you know, disease control and vaccinations and antibiotics, people would have like ten kids per household, but, like, two of them would survive to adulthood.

1:09:08 Kayla: Right, right. Chris: And then as those things come online, as you have sanitation and vaccinations and things like that, people start having fewer and fewer kids. And, like, the net effect is that, like, you end up still only having two total kids that survive to adulthood. But there's like, this intermediate step where people are still having like a shit ton of kids as these technologies are being adopted. Kayla: Right. Chris: And so that's why you get these, like, every society sort of goes through this, like, technological induced population boom. Kayla: Interesting. Chris: And then that's why it's leveling out in countries that are, like, post that, such as the United States and Japan and Germany and then other countries that are sort of like pre or just like just starting to industrialize and get access to things like vaccinations and sanitation, will boom their population, which I think is a little bit of a, maybe a spot of hope or something.

1:10:04 Kayla: No, it is. We can talk about that right now. Some scholars believe that the general alarm about the human population reaching 10 billion and higher in the next century is unfounded. Some scholars believe the population will reach a peak kind of around where we are now and then begin to fall because of that reason. Chris: I think that's what that article shows. Kayla: The more industrialization happens, the more technology proliferates and the more our healthcare gets better, blah, blah. People will have fewer kids because they don't need to have ten kids. Chris: There was even an article, I think futurism cited it a few weeks back about, like, there was some scientist was saying, like, there might be a population collapse in the next hundred years, right? And were like, oh, okay, that doesn't sound so bad. And then the scientist was like, no, it's gonna suck. And then there's like, all these reasons that'll suck. And so I was just, like, reading this thing going and going like, wait, which one's bad?

1:10:56 Kayla: Which one's bad? Chris: I don't know which direction I'm supposed. Kayla: To feel terrified, know? Like, honestly, many of the articles I read reiterated over and over again how difficult it is to predict population trends. I also want to point out that, like, because of that, a lot of the alarm over rising global population has not yet come to pass. So, like that book I mentioned, the population bomb, which basically started the zero population growth movement in the seventies. Many of the predictions that were written about never came to pass. So, like, the book predicted that millions of people worldwide would starve to death as a result of the resource scarcity in the seventies. And that didn't happen. And in fact, when it was, like, released, they like, bumped that up to the eighties and again, that still did not happen.

1:11:38 Chris: Oh, but see, that's so damaging because then, like, that gives ammo to the other side to be like, oh, see, all this stuff didn't happen. So climate change is also bullshit. As they sit in their house. Kayla: I know, it's like, you can see these catastrophic predictions over and over don't happen. So then people go like, well, I guess it's never gonna happen. And that's nothing. Great. Chris: Yeah, I mean, there is a point there that things are difficult to predict. Like, nobody, literally nobody can predict the future or else everybody would be rich off the stock market. But at the same time, you don't want to, like, dismiss the predictive power of science to help us guide our way through very challenging global problems. Kayla: Right.

1:12:18 Chris: Just because, like, oh, yeah, guess what? In the year 1000, we thought the world would end, so they stopped farming and then the world did end. Yeah. Okay. But also, my backyard's on fire and the air is poisoned. So let's try to do something about that. Kayla: Like, I don't want to say that global population isn't. Overpopulation isn't a problem, but, like, again, maybe not as black and white as VMIT wants us to think. And, like, let's just listen to scientists. Also, again, we're not going down rabbit holes here. Chris: We did. This has been like, no, we're doing good. Kayla: We are actually. Chris: Yeah, we've skipped over potential rabbit holes. Kayla: Doing great. Chris: This is a good timing for us. Yeah. Kayla: Once we start talking about humans being the problem in Earth's ecosystem, it is a slippery slope to eco fascism. Which is a topic for another episode. Yeah. Discussion about reducing Earth's population to sustainable levels can quickly devolve into fascist thought of like. And eugenicist thought of like, well, who gets culled then? Like, we're talking about population calling who gets culled?

1:13:16 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So let's just be mindful about humans when we talk about ecology and, like, remember that other people are other people and we don't need to be fascist. Chris: Other people are other people. I like, are we? Kayla: Fascism is always bad. Chris: No, because I feel like that is another good potential catchphrase that we could monetize. Kayla: Okay. Chris: And hopefully in a sustainable way. You know, we don't want too many people saying that catchphrase because then will destroy the environment. Kayla: That's true. Yeah. So just don't get fascist. When we talk about ecology anyway. Chris: Just don't get fascist. I feel like that's a pretty good. Kayla: Fascism is always the wrong answer. Chris: Yeah, don't get fascist. Kayla: Everyone vehement has no delusions that their movement will see success, especially not in any of our lifetimes.

1:13:59 Chris: Well, yeah, they have a long way to go. Kayla: Yeah. It has been suggested that there are only two chances of everyone volunteering to stop breeding. Slim. And none of. Chris: I mean, I appreciate. They're like, they're fighting the fight in the face of, like, total failure. Kayla: Yeah. Like, they just feel they have an ethical duty to make the morally correct choice to not have children, whether or not they can convince the rest of the planet. And, like, honestly, I really respect that. I think it's difficult to stand up for what you truly believe is right even when you know it's not likely to be successful. Chris: Right. Kayla: So whether. Whether or not you agree with that. Chris: Courageous. Kayla: It is courageous. It's. It's hard not to respect the work and the message. And really, the message boils down to this awesome quote from Mister less unite. Accept mortality, spread memes, not genes. Socrates's errors are not apparent, but his ideas linger strong.

1:14:54 Chris: This is where all the cheesy humor comes from. Kayla: That's good. Chris: It comes from him. It comes from the top. Kayla: So, Chris, what do you think? Voluntary human extinction movement? Chris: Cult or just weird? Kayla: Or just weird? Chris: Well, I mean, yeah. Take out the cat barf paper belongs in a museum. Kayla: It's disgusting. Chris: All right, so, expected harm. You. You didn't tell me about anything where a member was doing something that was harmful to them. You didn't tell me about any, like, family separation or. Kayla: No, the Church of Euthanasia actually had to, like, take off. Like, they had, like, suicide methods on their website. They had to take them down after somebody killed themselves using their. So. But that is not part of vehement. That is not. I cannot think of any. Oh, oh, wait. Let's also just note that mister less unite has put his money where his mouth is. When?

1:15:50 Chris: Oh, you didn't mention this. Kayla: When he was 25 years old, he got a vasectomy. Chris: Oh. Kayla: After becoming a part of the zero population growth. Chris: Oh, yeah, you told me. Let's get to that. You said about the kids, so he doesn't have kids. Kayla: He doesn't have kids because he became a part of the zero population growth movement. He came to his vehement conclusions, and then he put his money where his mouth is when he was 25 and had got a free vasectomy from a student doctor who was his first vasectomy. Chris: I don't know if that's the operation that I want to get for free, but. Okay, good for him. Kayla: But, yeah, expected harm. I don't think there is much, unless. Chris: It doesn't seem like it.

1:16:31 Kayla: I don't harm depriving oneself of, like, children. But they're arguing very strongly that it is harmful to have children. Chris: Right. For people that are self electing to not have children, it doesn't seem like they're missing out. Kayla: Right. Chris: Right. If it was, like, people that wanted children and for some reason weren't able to have them because of this group, right. Then I'd say, okay, that's harm. But these, it seems like a, again, voluntary seems to be the name of the game. So I guess low expected harm. I'm really grasping at straws. I don't think there is any. I'm gonna jump around here. Anti factuality, closed logical system, motivated reasoning.

1:17:13 Kayla: I don't know if there's much of those two things, but I think there might be some anti factuality just in, like, the dismissal of the alternatives and the very strong, like, no, humans will always do this, and this is what it is. And it's about population rather than, like, distribution of resources and solving the problems, like you and I have talked about. Chris: Yeah. And the whole, like, humans as a separate thing, as a separate entity from the environment in which we live. Kayla: Right. Chris: I think falls into that category a little bit for me. Now, this isn't, this doesn't seem like there's, like, gaslighting or motivated reasoning going on here. So I'd say even with that, it's still relatively low. It's not like, nil, but it's relatively low percentage of life consumed. Well, for the kids you don't have, it's 100%.

1:18:00 Kayla: It does seem that it's a large percentage of your life because you're making a really large decision. Chris: On the other hand, kids consume your life. Kayla: That's true. Chris: So maybe this is negative percentage life consumed because you get to travel and go to concerts and do all the things that you can't do when you're parents. So it's actually negative percentage of life consumed, I think. Right? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, aside from the whole, like, negative percentage of life consumed thing. I don't know. It seems. It seems low. I don't. Kayla: You don't think having a vasectomy or, like, a irreversible. Chris: But when we say percentage of life consumed, we're talking about, like, you have to be on the compound every day or you have to be selling MLM. Even when you're in line at the grocery store. These people feel like it's just a decision that they make, and then it's the rest.

1:18:53 Kayla: Maybe you put a little gif on your Facebook. Chris: Right? Kayla: That's about it. Yeah. No, it's not very high ritual. Chris: It's not having a kid. Ritualistic. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Low. Kayla: What about, like, their website badges? Chris: The badges are ritual. Kayla: I mean, the whole website is, like. I guess it's not ritualistic. It's just very, like, is he the only one in the cult? Chris: Yeah. Well, that's what I was wondering. Right. Kayla: Like, I don't know. Like, sometimes they speak at, like, environmental events and stuff. Chris: Okay, well, this dovetails into. Is it niche? I don't know. It really depends on how you define it. If it's, like, the number of Facebook subscribers or group subscribers. Yes. It's very niche. It's tiny. If it's the number of people that just simply don't want to have kids, then large. I would say that's not niche, especially in western developed societies now, like Japan and Germany, in the US.

1:19:57 Kayla: I think it feels niche, though. Chris: I mean, I guess if you're saying, like, the human movement. Yeah. If you're. If you're saying it's voluntary extinction versus, like, I just don't want to have kids. Kayla: Right. Chris: Then it definitely feels like a smaller group of people that would self identify with that. Like, we know people that don't want to have kids. I'm not sure if they'd be like, I think humans should go extinct. Kayla: I'm not sure if they would go. Chris: To that extreme, so. Okay. Hi. Hi. On niche. Kayla: Okay. Chris: All right, fine. And then lastly, but not leastly, charismatic leader. Kayla: So we've talked about, like, how he, like, he runs the website and he's kind of, like, the spokesperson. Like, he's dedicated a lot of his life to this. Like, we talked about, he got a vasectomy at 25. He also, like, he spent his career as a substitute teacher, which he had a lot of time to, like, focus on this. And, like, he does most of the, like. Like, he is the spokesperson for it. He, like, talks to, like, he gives interviews to various outlets.

1:20:56 Chris: So just one dude's website, or is it, like, an organization? Like, I still don't really get that. Kayla: He just did an interview for the Guardian, like earlier this year. He like speaks at like he pops up at various like farmers markets and outdoor events that like in port around the Portland, Oregon area. Like he's very active. Chris: Oh, he lives in Portland. Of course he does. Kayla: Yeah. But I mean, he also talked about how he, you know, he runs these like Yahoo groups and how these Facebook groups are a thing and how like, and they do oftentimes have a presence at like environmental events. They do rely heavily on like media coverage to get the word out about their thing. Chris: But does he have any help? Are there like officers? Are there like, or is it just this one guy?

1:21:40 Kayla: It's kind of just this one guy running this website. He had the help of Nina Paley, but she's like gotten more famous. Chris: Okay. I mean, he seems, no wonder he needs to be a substitute teacher. He's got a lot of work on him. Kayla: I think he's retired now. I hope he's retired now. Chris: Okay. Okay. So he's just, he's running this website, doing these interviews all sort of on his lonesome. He doesn't even have like a vp of human extinction. Kayla: I don't think so. There are other people that will talk on behalf of the vehement movement. Like there was somebody, somewhat well known YouTube channel just did an interview with somebody and it wasn't Mister Knight. It was another vehement movement person. Like he's not the only one. He's just like the most well known.

1:22:21 Chris: Okay. Well, one hand you said he denies being a leader or founder, but on the other hand, he seems to be like the only thing holding this organization together, such as it is. I mean, obviously there would still be people that were like, I don't want to have kids. But in terms of like vehement, the organization. Kayla: Right. Chris: The website and the interviews and whatever else consists of the organization, he seems to be like the. And so to speak, he is the, and organization. Kayla: He is the. Chris: And so I would say hi for charismatic leader. Kayla: I would also say hi for charismatic leader. Chris: He also said he was hella charismatic.

1:23:02 Kayla: I think he is. Chris: Okay. Kayla: You heard his website. It's all funny. Chris: Like, that's true. Kayla: He's hilarious. He seems like such like a comedian. He's like such an alt nineties figure. Like that's such the vibrant. Chris: What do you mean by alt ninety's? Kayla: Like, like he to me exemplifies the alternative cultures that popped up in the nineties. Like cult, Church of Euthanasia also is a very nineties thing. Nina Paley is a nineties thing. That's like the gen Xendh like style of alternative art. Feels very much in line with his thang. His, like, the sense of humor kind. Chris: Of seems like that.

1:23:43 Kayla: Yeah, it's, like, very nineties. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I don't have better language than that because it's like. It is ephemeral. But he, to me, very much feels like a product of the nineties, and I love it. Chris: Okay. Yeah. I'll say hi then, for charismatic leader. So this seems like. This is just weird. Kayla: It's just weird. Chris: Based on. Kayla: It's not a cult. Chris: Yeah, based on the. Kayla: Even though their name is voluntary human extinction movement. Chris: Yeah, the name definitely. Maybe we should add that to the criteria. Cause name is high. Kayla: Name is high. Chris: Name is very high. But it definitely just. I think it's like the looseness of the Confederation and the fact that they're not, like. Overall, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of, like, all the harmful stuff is not there. It doesn't seem to be harmful to its members, doesn't seem to be, like, pushing false narratives. It doesn't seem to be taking up people's lives and consuming it. And then it's also missing out on their whole ritual thing, unless I was mistaken there. So it's just. It's. Yeah, it's low on the harmful stuff, and it doesn't even have that much ritual.

1:24:45 Kayla: Right. It's just got a curious. Just a guy. Chris: It's just a weird. It's just a weird guy. Kayla: Just a weird guy. Chris: The other thing, what was it? The vault. The euthanasia of euthanasia. That's cult. Kayla: No, it's not. Chris: I don't know, man. You said they put, like, suicide notes, and they're not. Kayla: Yeah, but they're also, like, techniques. Again, it's very nineties cult from that. They're also, like, even more of, like, a joke than Viet mint is. Like. They're even more, like, jokes in bad. Chris: Taste as opposed to, like, dad jokes. Kayla: It's just, like, super absurdist. Like, they're like. They're kind of like neo dada. And that they're like, the world is so fucking absurd that the only way to protest against it is to be, like, even more absurd. And, like, that's very. That, again, feels very, like nineties in a way, to me, in the way that they go about it. I don't think that they're. If they were actually, like, everyone should kill themselves. How are their leaders. Why are they. Why are the leaders not dead? The leader is, like, now a techno detail.

1:25:48 Chris: Everyone should kill themselves except us. Kayla: Kayla? I think it's more of a performance art piece than an actual, like, church of euthanasia. Chris: Look, man, I'm super pro absurdist. I'm not sure I can get behind some of the stuff that they talk about. Kayla: Yeah. Though they had a whole thing where they, like, I don't know, when 911 happened, they, like, put out this video of, like, splicing together hardcore porn and, like, shots of September 11, and it's just. It's not. Chris: Yeah, they're not. They're not sounding like, the most tasteful, great group of people, but I also. Kayla: Understand being, like, the world is so absurd. The only way to, like, make a statement is to be even more absurd. Like, I get that. Chris: But, of course, that's not what this episode is about. Kayla: Right? Chris: This episode is about vehement, which we have said. Just weird.

1:26:31 Kayla: Just weird. Chris: Yeah. Anything else you want to say in terms of, like, debating the ethics of this kind of thing? Kayla: No. Chris: No, we're done. We're done here. Kayla: I don't have. Chris: Spoiler alert. Kayla: I finished my script, so. Chris: So there's no more words. Kayla: There's no more words to have. I'll post some. I'll post all of, like, my cool articles and stuff so you can learn more. Chris: Spoiler alert. The latest, maybe not the latest, but one of the more later Dan Brown books is basically about this, so. Kayla: Oh, really? Chris: If you want to read Inferno. Inferno? Yeah. So, spoilers. If you want to go read Inferno, then turn off our podcast right now. But the villain inferno was basically somebody that was, you could say, was part of one of these movements. He was, like, a geneticist, some super scientist that was like, oh, my God, the population of the world is too much, and it's a population bomb, and blah, blah. And anyway, he ended up winning.

1:27:34 Kayla: Yeah. That's why you didn't like that book. Chris: It was weirdly weird. And the way he want, like, you thought the whole time he was just gonna kill half the population of the earth. But actually what he did is, like, infected the entire planet somehow with, like, this, like, germline virus that would change it. So, like, at random, half of the population of the earth couldn't have kids. Kayla: It's so horrible. Chris: Yeah. So talk about forced sterilization. Anyway, I don't know why I bring it up, other than it's just, like, what episode was about, sort of. But they talked a lot in that book about. Kayla: That's fascist, though. Chris: Oh, yeah, totally. Kayla: Again, don't be fascist. Don't be fascist stance of the podcast. Chris: Yeah, don't be fascist about anything, not just this. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. But, yeah, it was. I don't know. They talked a lot about, like, you know, oh, overpopulation is, you know, an underlying cause of a lot of these other problems. And I don't know. It was. It was interesting. I'm not sure I like how the book ended. It was just. It felt really strange.

1:28:29 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: To have the book in that way. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Almost as if, like, Dan Brown was. Kayla: Like, saying that's how it should be cool with. Yeah. Chris: Forcibly sterilized. Kayla: Dan Brown is a fascist is what we're saying. Chris: Yeah. But, you know, DaVinci code was still a fascist. A fun, beach read fascist. Kayla: Was it fascist? Chris: No, you just said it was. I was just agreeing with you. Kayla: I really liked DaVinci code. Chris: So did I. I don't. I don't care if it was, you know, I don't care if that makes me a basic bitch. Kayla: Whatever. I'd rather be a basic bitch than somebody who's like, the davinci con is bad. Fuck off. Chris: Yeah. I mean, for me, population control, like, population overpopulation stuff, I get most of my knowledge about that from the civilization series of games. So, in civilization, you just. You have to accumulate enough food in your city, and then you get an additional population point.

1:29:20 Kayla: Cool. Chris: But if you lose too much food, then you lose a population point. Kayla: Got it. Chris: So that's basically how I view all this stuff. Kayla: Okay, good job. Chris: You're basically cool. Storyboarding me. Kayla: I mean. Yeah, f. You do that to me all the time. Chris: That's a sign that we should end the episode. Kayla: No, I was just saying I don't play Civ, so I don't have much to add to that besides. Sounds good. Chris: Cool. Kayla: Cool story, bro. Chris: Bro. All right, well, I think we should probably try to do some bonus content for this one and talk to our friend of the podcast and musician for the intro outro music, and throw that up on our Patreon. We'll throw it up because he has an interesting take on it. That's not just about overpopulation. It's more of, like, individual ethical decision type stuff that we've had some very interesting chats about, and maybe we could share that with you guys.

1:30:15 Kayla: Maybe. Chris: And if that doesn't happen, then this is going to be really awkward. Kayla: We'll just cut it out. Chris: We'll cut it out because we'd have to talk with them on, like, Wednesday. And we're publishing this on Tuesday. Kayla: I can cut it out post haste, post publish. It's fine. Chris: Okay, that's true. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So only the people that listen to this episode on Tuesday, only our most ardent fans, will be the ones that get false information. That sounds nice. Kayla: Thanks, fans. Chris: Anything else, Miss Kayla? Kayla: No, I'm good. Chris: All right, that was it. Kayla: I'm Kayla. Chris: I'm Chris. Kayla: This is Ben. Chris: Cult or just weird?