0:00 Chris: You don't know how many tabs I have open. Kayla: Sorry. Chris: Are we called opening again? Are we called opening again? Wait, this is your episode. How do you want to do it? Kayla: I don't want to do that.

0:51 Chris: You know, I had a dream. I just realized. I just remembered this, that somebody was saying that we don't do enough banter. They were like, you guys don't do enough banter. I stopped listening. Kayla: Oh, God. Oh, that's stressful. Chris: I know. Especially because, like, I've gotten feedback that we did, like, too much. Like, oh, I just wanted to hear about the topic. And then he just, like, yapped for ten minutes. Kayla: We do yap? Chris: No, but we stopped yapping as much. Kayla: I'm fine with not yapping. Chris: But then I had a dream that somebody was like, you're not yapping enough. Kayla: Oh, God. It can never be good enough. Chris: Well, in the dream, I mean, I don't want to, like, indict our listeners based on a dream I had. Kayla: Thanks, listeners, for saying we're not doing enough in Chris Carlson's dream. Chris: Dream listeners. Kayla: Yeah. I'm Kayla.

1:33 Chris: I'm Chris. Kayla: This is our podcast culture. Just weird. Welcome. Ew. Why did we do that? Chris: At the same time we're harmonizing. Kayla: We did it. This. I don't. I didn't care for that. Chris: Speaking of listeners, we keep getting fan mail. Kayla: I know. Thank you for sending us mails, you guys. It's really nice, especially right now when everything is, like, utter garbage outside. You look out the window and it's just like, oh, mushroom cloud. Okay. Like, it's terrible out there. It's really nice to have those little bright spots in our day. So thank you so much having a. Chris: Conversation, a nice little email conversation with some plural friends of mine. I also got yet another email from a former member of TFU for our Twin Flames episode.

2:18 Kayla: Oh, no. Chris: And they emailed me and was like, oh, nice. Nice episode about twin Flames. Kayla: They didn't email you to sue you yet? Chris: No, not yet, unfortunately. Sadly. I know, I know. I'm really disappointed we haven't made it yet. Kayla: I know. Chris: Anyway, this person emailed and was like, yeah, I was in for a little. Here, let me pull up their email. Listen to your podcast about TFU. Found it very entertaining. I am also an ex member, so the thing that they wanted to talk about on here a lot, and I'm trying to hide their identity as well. Just if that tells you anything. Now there's, like, out of the three people I've talked to live, this is like, two out of three wanted their identity. Kayla: Right. Chris: So this one, they were like, oh, yeah, it's totally like Scientology. So this whole email is, like, going through, like, point by point. Like, yeah, they do the thing where, like, they, like, unfriend you and block you and, like, excommunicate when you leave. They definitely do, like, the family separation thing. Like, your family's bad if they're trying to. Yeah, like, and then there's a couple other things that I actually, I meant to get to on the episode that I just. There was just so much that I just sort of either cut it or left it out or whatever. Or forgot it.

3:25 Kayla: Right, right. Chris: But this person mentioned in their email. So apparently Jeff and Shalia will make their students go leave positive reviews for their book. They have a book. Kayla: I want to get the book. Chris: They have a book called. Hang on, I have it open. Kayla: If I could not spend money on it, I'd get it. Chris: I think they might have more than one, but they have this one called twin flames finding your ultimate lover. Ew, by Jeff and Shilia. And anyway, they have their followers go, like, bomb positive reviews. Kayla: That's a thing here. Chris: And then they also have them go report negative reviews. Kayla: Yep, sounds about right. Chris: Yeah, I know that all checks out.

4:06 Kayla: Wasn't that also a part of. And I could be totally pulling this out of my ass of lovinghut. Chris: I think it's a part of a lot of them, but maybe it was specifically. I think I remember that. Kayla: Yeah, like, you had to go buy the books or something. Chris: I don't know. Kayla: That's. They're all cults. Chris: They're all. But actually. So it's not just this person that told me that, but that actually came up and the member I had, like, the reams of documents that were shared with me. I saw that in the documents a couple times. And then the other thing that this person talked about that I've also seen a little bit on Reddit, on those subreddits I was talking about, is that they have, like, students living at their house. Kayla: It makes me uncomfortable. Chris: It's like, remember that interview with the Vanity Fair person you were talking about, like, oh, there's a house chef.

4:50 Kayla: Yeah. Well, then he, Jeff kept saying, like. And you've seen all the harmonious unions around here, and it sounded like they were living on a fucking compound. Chris: Yeah. So I. According to this person, I think there's only one couple living on their house now. But at one point, they had, like, several up to, like, five or six. Let's see, at 1.6 others were living there at once. Six. Sorry, three couples, six people. Presently there's only one couple living there. Kayla: That's not necessarily Covid safe. And I hope they're all being cautious. Chris: Well, I mean, if they're all bubbled up, you know, I hope so with anybody else. Kayla: I'm just saying I hope they're being Covid safe. Chris: I also. I don't think this person used it in their email, but I saw on Reddit the word grooming being used to reference these folks.

5:31 Kayla: Sure. Chris: Anyway, this isn't about twin flames. This is about your stuff. But I just. I just wanted to mention that I got this yet another email from yet another member. Thank you for emailing me, mystery person. I'm glad that you enjoyed the show and I'm glad that you were also able to share your story with us. Kayla: I'm sorry. Chris: Yeah, sorry. Sorry that happened. Kayla: Dealt with that because it sounds sucky. Any more. Chris: Any more business? I don't know. Kayla: I don't have any. Chris: We're actually getting some more activity on the old what's it line. What's the line? Thing. Kayla: Ye olde line thing.

6:11 Chris: Old line thingy. Kayla: Place your role of text.com culture. Just weird. Chris: My brain's not working. Yeah, we're getting like a bunch of people, like, still coming on there. Some more tulpas, actually. Kayla: God bless the tulpas. Chris: I know. I feel like our best, like, single fan block is the tulpas. Kayla: Yeah. I love the tulpas. Chris: It's freaking great. Like, they love us, we love them. It's awesome. Kayla: We are a pro Tulpa podcast. Chris: Yeah, just like, let's just rebrand the podcast. Fuck this cult thing. But yeah, there's more activity on there. It's really fun and cool. Kayla: It is fun and cool. Chris: Fun and cool. Kayla: We're descriptive. Chris: Anyway, that's the episode. Kayla: Bye. No, that was bad because now people are gonna turn it off. Chris: No, but once they've already downloaded it.

6:52 Kayla: It doesn't give a shit. Chris: I don't care if you listen. Kayla: Are you ready for my topic? Chris: I mean, I'm usually not, so. Kayla: None of us are. It's not. You know what? Chris: I feel like I was ready for the line. Like, I was like, oh, I was ready to receive that information. I was not ready for soul phone. Kayla: No one is ready for soul fun. Chris: I was ready for some, like, woo shit. Was not ready for. Was not ready for the undead a team. Kayla: Yeah, you know what? This is a very different topic from my previous two. For better or for worse. Take that as you will. Okay, I want to open this topic by giving a rundown of a person's illness, symptoms that they suffered with for 25 years. And then I want to get your reaction to it. Like, how would you address these issues? Or what would you suggest for this person? You know, because of all your medical.

7:42 Chris: Expertise, I have a lot of that. Kayla: So this person's symptoms go like this. At one year old, they were diagnosed with strep throat and thrush. At two years old, when they learned to walk, they developed a limping gait whilst walking. At seven years old, they were diagnosed with severe idiopathic juvenile rheumatoid arthritis with 37 joints affected, which led to the prescription of several immunosuppressive drugs. In fourth grade, they were diagnosed with severe chronic depression. In fifth grade. At 14, full body itching with no corresponding hives or rashes. Chris: Is this just about you? Kayla: This is what happened to me. No, I am, like, so healthy compared to this.

8:24 Chris: Yeah, no, this sounds horrible so far. Kayla: At 17, all cartilage in the hip and ankle eroded away, resulting in replacement surgery for both joints, leading to a year long prescription for oxycontin. Soon after. Chris: Oh, it's Rush Limbaugh. Kayla: Okay, soon after, you're not that far off. Soon after, a diagnosis of idiopathic hypersomnia, leading to sleeping for 18 hours a day, resulting in Adderall and amphetamine prescriptions. At 19, diagnosed with hypomania and anxiety. At 20. Chris: What's hypomania? It's like, the opposite of hypermania. Kayla: It's like minor mania. It's like. Oh, it's like being manic, but just below. Chris: Just a little manic.

9:05 Kayla: Just a little manic. At 21, development of rashes, cystic acne, blisters, and sores that wouldn't heal on the face and body. Chris: Jeez. Kayla: How does that sound to you? Chris: Awful. Kayla: Sounds terrible, right? Chris: Yes. Kayla: Like. Like, that is true unwellness. And the person experiencing these chronic issues from childhood, this person deserves the best, most caring medical attention and treatment out there. Right? Chris: Yeah, but it sounds like. Okay, so it sounds like either they weren't getting it properly, or like they were just going through an ordeal, man. Like, I. I don't know. Are they okay now? Kayla: Well, we'll get into it more later, but this person claims that they did not receive the best medical care and attention. Okay, you probably notice I used the word idiopathic a few times to describe the diagnoses. Idiopathic arthritis? That's pretty insulting.

9:53 Chris: Why do you have to call them an idiot, too. Kayla: That's not what it. God. Do you know what idiopathic means, you idiot? Chris: You idiopath? Kayla: You idiopath. It basically means that the doctors don't know why it's happening. It's just. Chris: I actually did not know that idiopathic. Kayla: Just means, like, you have insomnia and we don't know why. Chris: Like, it's like, an official sounding, like, mmm, basically. I don't know what it is. Kayla: It's literally that. This person also claims that several doctors chalked these symptoms, especially the skin symptoms, up to anxiety. So you're feeling anxious. It's making you feel itchy. You scratch, and then it makes you more itchy, so just stop scratching. I mean, this person saying that they were so itchy that they were scratching themselves in their sleep and making themselves bleed. So, like, that's not exactly the best medical advice out there, imo. So, I mean, what would you suggest for this person if a friend came to you and said, I've had all these issues and taking all these medications, I still feel terrible, my life feels terrible, and I'm only in my early twenties. What would you suggest to your friend?

10:53 Chris: And this friend has also told me that traditional doctors are all just throwing the idiopath at him. Yeah, they don't know. Kayla: I mean, they're getting medications and they are getting treated, but, like, there's still a lot of. Chris: I would ask Doctor Gorski. I don't know. Cause that's scary, right? Because, like, I think it's like the. Kayla: Moment in paranormal activity when the priest comes to the house and he goes, I can't be here. Chris: I'm just making it worse. And then he leaves, and then you just. You're like, well, what the hell do we do now? Kayla: I mean, I don't know. As a vow, that's what I put. I don't know what I would suggest. Chris: I mean, I know, but if the way you posed the question was if it was like, one of my very good friends asked me that, because if it was like, somebody that was like.

11:34 Kayla: A, you know, I just said, if one of your friends. Chris: Oh, regular friend, I would be like, I don't know, you're fucked, and I'd close the door. But if it was like, a good friend, theoretically, if I had one of those, I don't know, I would say, like, we're gonna keep looking for doctors and looking for caregivers until we find something that works. Like, especially if were trying to be consistent with how we talked about medical care. Last two episodes. Sometimes you have to look for a long time before you find something that will help. Kayla: I just. This is a problem that I think some people experience. Like, you're dealing with intense health issues like this, and our best science and medicine can't help you, so we just don't really know what to do. And so I understand when people move on to woo after these experiences and start checking out acupuncture. Reichi.

12:27 Chris: Right. If that person was like, I wanna try acupuncture, I'd be like, sure, yeah, let's do it. Let's try it. Like, if you are outside the help of traditional science, then start throwing darts at the wall. Kayla: Well, let's talk about some of those darts. Let's talk about a dart. So, like I said, some things you might check out acupuncture. Reichi. Faith healing, energy healing, or weird ass diets? Because, yes, my friends, this is another diet episode. Chris: Should have known. Kayla: So all of the triggers and content warnings, up top. Chris: I was, like. I was about to say weird diet right before you said that. Kayla: Yep. Unlike fasting, we're not really gonna be trotting too deeply into eating disorder territory, but, you know, tangentially, it just comes up. This topic is weird. Hold onto your loins.

13:18 Chris: Okay. So I was about to say, are we finally doing breatharianism? Not yet, but it sounds like we're doing mediterraneanism. Kayla: We'll get to that. Chris: If you're saying the word loins, get to that. Nice pun there. Kayla: So back to our mystery patient. After 25 years of dealing with severe autoimmune and mental health symptoms, this person. Chris: Wait, I know this is. Kayla: Yeah, I know. Cause fucking YouTube. Chris: No, because you said. Because you gave it away when I said rush Limbaugh, and you were like, close. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And now you're talking about a meat diet, so I know who we're talking about. Now, I won't spoil it for those listeners that don't know, but we have savvy listeners, so I'm sure they all know. They probably knew before I did.

13:58 Kayla: After 25 years of dealing with severe autoimmune and mental health symptoms, this person was fucking fed up. Understandable. Once the symptoms spread to their skin, they hit a wall. Their illnesses were no longer invisible. They now looked visibly ill with noticeable rashes and sores. And, like, that's a whole different thing where it's like, if you're just internally feeling shitty, that's one thing. And then when it turns into. And now I have, like, markers of it on my body, visible proof. Chris: Right. Kayla: That's another thing. Chris: Maybe I should just ask this on the podcast. But, like, where's this information? Yeah, I'll just ask it. Where's. Where do you get this information about how this person grew up? Because I don't know if it's coming from that person. Kayla: I don't know if we'll get to that. I don't question that.

14:41 Chris: You don't? Kayla: I don't question. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I don't question the self reporting of symptoms. Chris: Really? Kayla: In this case, no. Chris: Why not? Kayla: We'll get to that. Chris: Okay. Kayla: So, frustrated by the lack of answers or solutions provided by the medical community, this person decided to take things into their own hands and headed back to university to get educated on and conduct research into their own illnesses. So this person started by studying skin issues, reading hundreds of papers to figure out what was going on with them. They planned to go into the study of immunology, but during these studies, this person ended up taking a 23 andme test, discovering that they carried the gene for celiac disease, an autoimmune disorder that reacts to gluten.

15:22 Chris: Wait, hold up. Was it celiacs the whole time? And, like, nobody figured that out. Kayla: Just because you carry the gene for celiac doesn't mean you have celiac. And also, it doesn't. It's not going to have those other symptoms. It's just like, here's a weird thing I came up with, but it is this person. A lot of what they're dealing with can be chalked up to, like, that's autoimmune. That's autoimmune. And celiac is an autoimmune thing. Chris: Got it. Kayla: And this person was like, huh, that's super interesting. Especially since none of the doctors they'd been to had ever even thought to look for that. So this person experimented with eliminating gluten from their diet, which they self report to result in about a 20% decrease in symptoms of. Chris: Mm. This is what I'm saying. Like, eventually, like, you have to keep moving on to a different doctor, because how can, like, you know, somebody. Somebody's got to have the, like, the right idea. Somebody's got to be like, why don't we test for celiac? I don't know. Yeah, I just. I don't get it.

16:14 Kayla: I don't know. I can't. Chris: Sometimes I hear these stories. Kayla: I don't. I trust this person's reporting on their symptoms. I'm not necessarily going to say, I 100% trust this person's reporting on their. I. The type of medical care that was received. I definitely think they experienced the like. Huh. But I don't. I can't say that no doctor ever went, you know, let's talk about nutrition. I don't know. Chris: Okay. Kayla: So they have this 20% decrease in symptoms. They decided to shift their study focus to diet, nutrition, celiac. And they eventually decided to try an elimination diet. And I don't remember if we've talked about elimination diets on the show before, but basically, an elimination diet is something you undertake when you want to see if you're sensitive to or intolerant of certain foods. I think generally this is something that is and should be undertaken with the guidance of a healthcare professional. But I do understand why this person would rely only on themselves at this point.

17:08 Chris: So it's like a. You like, it's like a process of eliminating very specific things to kind of, like, isolate what? Kayla: Yeah, generally it's like you eliminate your diet down to a very specific set of foods that you know are safe, and then you eat that for a certain amount of time, and then you try to reintroduce other foods and see what your reaction is. Chris: Got it. Kayla: So this person eliminated gluten, and then they went on this strict elimination diet that allowed for rice, eggs, meat, and green vegetables. And while this person was, quote, very skeptical of the possible efficacy of this diet, it ended up, quote, improving things dramatically. This person suddenly lost weight going down three pant sizes. The rest of the symptoms began to decrease. Depression lifted to the point where they were able to get off of their lifelong antidepressants. Fatigue lifted. They were able to stop the adderall. And every time this person attempted to reintroduce the eliminated foods, symptoms returned with something as simple as almonds, causing a full body itch in the itchy, bloody legs thing. Attempts to reintroduce foods went on for a year. Each time, the symptoms would flare up worse than before, especially the depression. Each time a formerly eaten food was introduced.

18:15 Kayla: So, soy, sugar, you name it. This person assumed food allergies were the underlying issues. But again, doctors kind of wrote this off to them. The allergies did not show up on skin tests. And when this person explained that the reactions they were experiencing were delayed, they were met with disbelief, like, oh, well, delayed reactions. You can't really say that's a reaction to the almonds, right? After a year of this person decided, fuck it, I feel better when I'm on this elimination diet. Why would I keep trying to introduce foods? I'll just be happy eating these few foods. I can tolerate. And then they became pregnant, which brought back all of the autoimmune symptoms. Chris: Wait, they what? Kayla: Became pregnant? Chris: So I don't know who you're talking about anymore.

18:57 Kayla: Oh, interesting. Chris: Unless it's the daughter of the person I thought of. Kayla: Well, they became pregnant, which brought back all of the autoimmune symptoms. Regardless of what they were eating at this point, they were still doing the low carb elimination thing, but they had success bringing apples, parsnips, and sweet potatoes back. But during this flare up, it's very specific. They removed anything with any carb or sugar and was down to just meat and greens, and, like, it was very difficult to cut out the apples, parsnips, and sweet potatoes, which understandable, like, our bodies tend to prefer to have carbs in them. Chris: Parsnips? Yeah. Kayla: And plus, this person is pregnant. Like, that can be hard to deal with your food stuff. During that time, hoping that the autoimmune symptoms were just part of pregnancy, this person prayed it would end once the baby was born. Baby was born at home, because at this point, they were too disillusioned with doctors and hospitals. And unfortunately, the symptoms remained postpartum. So the itchiness, the arthritis, the joint pain, the skin.

19:59 Chris: Even with the old diet. Kayla: Even with the old diet, they had this sense of impending doom. Like, it all just came back. And with nowhere left to turn, or at least feeling like there was nowhere left to turn, this person did the last thing they could think of. They eliminated everything from their diet except chicken, fish, and red meat. And after a month of that sounds delicious. They even eliminated the chicken and fish and began so totally red meat. Eating beef. Beef, beef water, and salt for ten months. Chris: That's a dream diet. Kayla: And guess what? Everything changed. No symptoms died. Oh, no depression. Still an inability to reintroduce other food without getting an autoimmune reaction. But literally, this person's life is so much better on an all beef diet. Better than ever before. They only need.

20:50 Chris: So she eats only, like, beef. Kayla: Beef, salt and water beef, like, steaks. Chris: Every day, or does she have, like, a burger, but with no bun type of thing? Kayla: So it's like, a lot of. I mean, we'll get more into the specifics, but it's like, fatty cuts, like, a lot of ribs, a lot of steak, a lot of, like, there's, like, beef jerky and things like that. This person now says they only need 6 hours of sleep a night, as opposed to the 18 they were trying to get. They have more energy than they know what to do with. They've lost a ton of weight, and their body looks like they spend all their time at the gym, which they don't, at least at, you know, ten months in at this point, all of their issues are now under control just with this diet. Chris: And what's more, I think I could handle this diet.

21:33 Kayla: No, you couldn't. Think about it. Chris: No, actually, it would be horrible. That was. I couldn't even sort of handle this diet. My question about the burger clue you in. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Like, if I had to eat a burger without all the burger fixings, I would kill myself for the rest of life. Oh, my God. Yeah. I couldn't have, like, a scoop of garlic mashed potatoes with my steak. Like, I'm sorry. Pass on that life. Kayla: Well, this person has now gotten their parents on this all beef diet, which has also cured them. So her mother no longer suffers from diverticulitis, and her father has lost 50 plus pounds, and his lifelong crippling depression is cured. He's still an alt right asshole.

22:16 Chris: Fantastic. Kayla: But that's for another episode. Chris: See, that's who I thought you were talking about at first. Kayla: Yeah, well, you probably might have just guessed, but yes, our mystery patient is none other than Mikayla Peterson, daughter of canadian psychology professor adult. Right, darling? Jordan Peterson. And today's episode is about. How dare you? Chris: I don't know. Cause it felt like we built up to the saying the person's name for so long. Kayla: 25 minutes into applause or something. Today's episode is about her very own foray into the public spotlight by sharing her all beef diet with the world, calling it the lion diethyde. Chris: That's right. The lion diet. You know what's great about this is there's, like, the perfect thing for our instagram. The COVID of that book.

23:01 Kayla: Nope. Chris: No. Kayla: Turns out, I mean, I don't really get into it at all. But they didn't write that book. They claim that they. That is not their book. Chris: That doesn't mean we can't show that on our instagram. Kayla: Oh, absolutely. But it's not. They didn't write it. It's not theirs. Yeah, somebody is. Like, somebody is using the grifters to grift. Chris: They don't even. Kayla: We'll talk about it later. Now. Chris: Fantastic. Kayla: I will say up front that I really wanted to keep the focus of this episode kind of narrow, because I often have a hard time doing that, and I just really don't want to get too into who Jordan Peterson is and the work that he does. Cause that's a whole other episode. And while his beliefs and teachings, I think, in some ways definitely connect to and dovetail with Mikayla's diet and her own things, let's give the girl her own episode and just try to focus on that.

23:47 Chris: If you want to know who Jordan Peterson is, I just suggest googling it. Kayla: Or we're going to talk about it. Chris: Better yet, don't google it. Kayla: Oh, sorry. I'm going to talk about it. Chris: Oh, okay. I thought you literally just said, we're not going to talk about it. Kayla: It's not going to be about him. I'm not going to get into all of. I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty. We'll talk about him. Chris: Okay, so Kayla's version of not talking about someone is giving you a thorough background. Kayla: You will get a therapy. Chris: I get it. I get it. Okay. Kayla: I also wanted to keep the focus narrow by staying on topic with just the lion diet, because you won't be surprised to hear that Michaela's all meat diet is not the first of its kind. Following the natural, logical path from paleo to keto to low carb, etcetera. Carnivore diets that only allow for the consumption of meat and animal products have been around a little longer than Miss Peterson. We will talk a little bit more about these other carnivore diets. That is, we'll talk about them in depth, but again, could be their own episode. We're just gonna try and be lions today. And I think I already failed at that.

24:45 Chris: Rawr. Kayla: That said, here's a little background on Mikayla Peterson and her father, Jordan Peterson. I hate Jordan Peterson. GP Jordan Peterson is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. His first book, Maps of the Architecture of Belief, published in 1999, analyzed belief systems and meaning making by combining info from the fields of psychology, mythology, religion, literature, philosophy, and neuroscience, the book also founded the basis for many of his future lectures. While he may not wait, while the. Chris: Book almost sounds legit, is it. Kayla: It kind of sounds legit, but then. Chris: It'S like, it also sounds hodgepodge. Kayla: Psychology, mythology, religion, literature, philosophy, neuroscience. Chris: It's like, yeah, that sounds a little. Now that I say it, like, let's throw it all in the pot, mix it around.

25:31 Kayla: He may have been somewhat known in academic circles for his work, as well as his work at Harvard. Before he went toronto, he was at Harvard. Chris: He worked at Harvard Yard. Kayla: He became more mainstream in 2016 when he did a series of YouTube videos criticizing the canadian government's move to introduce gender identity and expression as a prohibited grounds of discrimination, this is where he got the reputation for being, like, anti political correctness. Anti identity politics tells it like it is. Well, much of his arguments against introducing gender identity and expression as prohibited grounds of discrimination had to do with the danger, quote, unquote, of the proposed bill making the use of certain gender pronouns into compelled speech. So he was basically saying, if it's. If it becomes illegal to discriminate against somebody for their gender expression, if I call somebody who uses she her pronouns he him, then I'm being like, and that's illegal.

26:30 Kayla: Then my free speech is being impinged upon, and I am compelled to call this person she her, even though I want to call them he him. Chris: I thought it was just that you couldn't discriminate. Not that you could, like, couldn't you say that all day and just, you're not allowed to discriminate based on it? Kayla: Well, with gender expression, refusing to use somebody's pronouns is discrimination. Chris: Like, what do we mean by discrimination in this bit? Like, is this, like. Kayla: Well, because he talks a lot about. Chris: I'm not gonna hire you. Or is this, like, I am literally not allowed to say these words at you, because if it's I'm not allowed to say these words, then he's right. Kayla: Well, you're not allowed to say these words. Like, he's not gonna get thrown in jail. He just might not be able to, like, be a teacher. Remember, he's, like, a college professor where all the safe spaces are.

27:18 Chris: Mm. It sounds a little complicated. Kayla: It is complicated. Chris: Sounds like I don't understand it. Kayla: Well, you are dumb, so I don't know what to tell you. Chris: Not to say that I'm kidding. Want to use thing. Not to say that I want to use pronouns that people don't want, but I'm not sure I understand the full, like, free speech implications there. Kayla: Well, for him, gender pronouns are a free speech issue, and PC identity politics are stifling free thought and debate in society, especially in academic circles and on campuses. When we do the Jordan Peterson episode, we can get more into it. But just know that, like, his whole thing was him being like, boo this. Chris: Right? He's very like, yeah, anti. It's the whole thing that they're all doing. Kayla: Yeah. Well, I mean, he's had a lot to criticize about progressive issues like such as feminism, the gender wage gap, male to female, sexual harassment in the workplace, white privilege, cultural appropriation, safe spaces on college campus. He claims that the humanities are corrupted by neo marxist ideology and that students standard line. Yeah, students should avoid subjects like sociology, anthropology, english literature, ethnic and racial studies, and the women's studies should be defunded. He has argued that if women don't want to be sexually harassed in the workplace, then they need to stop bringing sex into the workplace in the form of makeup and high heels.

28:31 Chris: That's right. He's the guy that's like, don't wear makeup if you don't want to get harassed. Kayla: Yes, he has strong stances on the ongoing crisis of masculinity. But rather than believing men are experiencing hardships as a result of the patriarchy harming them, instead, it's the, quote, backlash against masculinity that harms them. So it's like, it's not that the patriarchy hurts men. It's that by trying to, like, not have the patriarchy anymore, we're, like, shoving men to the side and denying them their masculinity, denying them their identity, which. It's a real identity politics based argument from somebody who's like, boo. Identity politics. Chris: Weird. That almost never happens. Kayla: Just saying.

29:12 Chris: I've never seen that before. Kayla: He also says that perhaps the existing societal hierarchy of oppressive patriarchy might be predicated on competence. Meaning. Chris: Right. The reason dudes are in charge is because they're better. Kayla: Yeah, he worries. Chris: I could have told you that. Kayla: Shut the fuck up. He worries about the feminization of men and the impact this has on the rightward trend of society. Chris: Oh, shit. I got a pedicure with my mom, like, a year ago. Kayla: You're feminine. Chris: Am I a woman now? Kayla: Now you're just gonna be reactionary and push. You're gonna react, and you're gonna become more right because you've had the pedicure, which has denied your masculinity. Chris: Okay, so how do I fix this? I just eat steak for the rest.

29:54 Kayla: Of my life, according to Jordan Peterson. Okay, I personally am not a fan of Jordan Peterson, so I am definitely painting him in a negative light here. Unfortunately, I just don't believe he is a useful voice in our society, and he wants to paint himself as an intellectual maverick while espousing ideas that have literally been around for hundreds of years. I don't think he's innovative. Chris: He's a grifter, intellectual. I think you're not. Okay, whatever. Somebody that liked Jordan Peterson would be telling a different story on this podcast. From what I know about him, I don't think you're actually painting him in that battle light. There's, like, you could. There's, like, a lot more. We could. Kayla: I know, but I could also be like, here's the good things. But I don't want to focus on any of the good things because I don't think they are good things.

30:39 Chris: Sure, sure. Kayla: I don't think he's helping men overall. It makes sense that his Persona and belief speak strongly to red pill and incel communities on the Internet. And I think he often does. That thing that charlatans do. They talk quickly and confidently and seem smart. When you really dissect the things that they're saying, it's like the things themselves are actually vacuous or really childish and low quality. Let's say. Chris: Just for the sake of argument, let's just assume. Okay, let's just assume that on this side. Sorry. Kayla: Are you being Jordan Peterson? Chris: No, I was being Ben Shapiro. Kayla: You know, it's just my opinion. He published a second book in 20 1812 rules for life, antidote to chaos. And maybe that sounds good to you. He's very into order and rules and hierarchies and, like, that shit just does not work in my life.

31:28 Chris: I like hierarchies. Kayla: No, thank you. He's got that whole, God, I really went into this. I thought I was just doing a brush. Chris: This episode is not about Jordan Peterson. 30 minutes later. Kayla: Oh, man. Chris: Anyway, that's a brief summary. Kayla: He's got that so you. I know that whole, like, hyperlogical, hyper rational, apolitical. I tell it like it is, don't get offended thing going on. That makes him a recurring guest on Joe Rogan's podcast, and one of the members. Whoa. Chris: We said weren't going to use the r word on our show. What's going on here? Kayla: What, recurring or Rogan? Chris: Rogan. Kayla: Well, we talk about Joe Rogan quite a bit here. Chris: We do. Son of a. Kayla: Well, no, he just comes up. He just comes up. Chris: Maybe we can be on his show.

32:10 Kayla: You cannot talk about Jordan and Michaela Peterson without talking about. Chris: Yeah, you're right. That's a good point. Kayla: You can't. Chris: That's a good point. Kayla: Jordan Peterson is also known as one of the members of the quote unquote intellectual dark web, an unofficial group of anti identity politics thinkers. Chris: God, they're so edgy. Kayla: Like Sam Harris, Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin, and year old pal Michael Shermer. Chris: Yeah, no, I know. Look, dude, I have since come. I've had that whole. What's the process? First, it's like the grieving. Yeah. The five stages of grief. I've been angry. Then sad. Then whatever the other three stages are, I'm over it. Kayla: Angry, sad, angry. Chris: Sadeena. Over it three different ways.

32:51 Kayla: Anger, depression, something. Bargaining. Michael Shermer is a contributor toward denial, sadness, bargaining. There's no sadness. And depression. Chris: It's all bunk anyway. Kayla: It's not bunk. It's just you don't go. Chris: It's not like you do. 12345 in order. Kayla: Those are just reactions. You have grief. Chris: Right, exactly. That's a mix of emotions that grief can trigger at different times throughout your life. In any case, I have done them in order because I like hierarchies. I just said that. Kayla: I know. Chris: So for those who don't know, Michael Shermer is a contributor to Scientific American. I don't know if he still is because I haven't read that magazine in a few years. But he writes a column called Skeptic. It's a skeptic column there. And I read him for many years, and it was like, always one of the, like, you know how, like magazines, you know, you'll read, like, one or two articles, but then there's, like, always one thing, one recurring thing you'll always read.

33:50 Kayla: It was always the advice column. Doesn't matter. What thing is. Chris: I am. I always read the letters to the. I always read letters because people always had, like, really interesting things to say that they would publish. And then I always read Michael Shermer's column, and it was really good. And it was, like, formative for me as a skeptic, as a person that identifies with that kind of stuff, that materialist, rationalist stuff, and anyway, blah, blah, fast forward. It's 2020. Don't have heroes. The end. Kayla: Yeah, the end. I also want to point out a little disgust facet of Jordan Peterson's Persona. He has a history of being very vocally christian, even having lectures on Christianity and christian stories and being a vocal believer in Jesus. I just want to point this out because I always.

34:37 Chris: Jesus was a steak fan. Rib eyes. Kayla: Steaks. Steaks. Chris: Oh, are we cutting that? Kayla: Driven through his hands and feet. Chris: There go literally every single one of our christian lives. Kayla: I'm not trying to criticize Christianity here. I just want to point out that I think it's interesting that this aspect to him is always, like, downplayed in his Persona because it doesn't really fit into the whole. Chris: I'm not sure I even knew that. Kayla: Yeah, it doesn't fit into the intellectual, dark web, hyper rational, incel red pill image that gets projected. I mean, it does, but it also doesn't like Michael Shermer is still atheistic, right? Chris: Well, and I guess Ben Shapiro is jewish. But like. But proudly.

35:19 Kayla: But also. Chris: But religious, right? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Let's also take a moment to discuss Jordan Peterson's health conditions. As mentioned, he struggles with a depression diagnosis that is very serious, something he has talked about openly, especially on the Joe Rogan's podcast. He also deals with anxiety, for which he has been prescribed clonazepam in the past. Shout out. Fortunately, he has also dealt with an addiction to that particular medication after it was increased. Chris: Fortunately or unfortunately? Kayla: Unfortunately, he's also dealt with an addiction to clonazepam after his dosage was increased to help him cope with his wife's cancer diagnosis. He's also dealt with autoimmune issues. Chris: Wife got cancer.

36:00 Kayla: Yeah, his wife's had a hard time of it. Chris: Fuck. Kayla: He's also dealt with autoimmune issues such as psoriasis and uvitis. I think that's how you say it. It's an inflammation of the Uvea, which is inside your eye. So, like his daughter, this man has dealt with a lot of physical and psychological issues in his life. And then on top of all that, he had to watch his daughter suffer with many of the same issues, only much worse. So, like, there's a lot here. But again, this episode isn't about Jordan Peterson. Chris: If you say so. Kayla: I just kind of wanted to showcase the environment that his daughter. Chris: Why don't we break it into two episodes? And then this episode will be about. Kayla: Two episodes about Jordan Peterson. I just wanted to showcase the environment that Michaela might have grown up under because she grew up with her own illness, with her father's illness. She grew up with her father's beliefs. And there are some interesting connections between all meat diets, right wing beliefs, and masculinity, which.

36:54 Chris: Yeah, no shit. Kayla: We will get into that later. But, like, yeah, it doesn't sounds like. Chris: They had a really tough time of it as a family. That really sucks. Kayla: It does. I feel bad for that part of their lives. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So before we get back to Michaela and her lion diet, let's briefly talk about carnivore diets in general. The phrase carnivore diet, from my research and what I can tell was actually coined by doctor Sean Baker in his 2019 book, the Carnivore Diet. Quote. Here's a description. Chris: Good title. Kayla: Sean Baker's carnivore diet is a revolutionary paradigm breaking nutritional strategy. Chris: Revolutionary. Eat me. Kayla: That takes contemporary dietary theory and dumps it on its head. It breaks just about all the rules and delivers outstanding results.

37:40 Chris: Is this also part of the intellectual dark web? Kayla: At its heart is a focus on simplicity rather than complexity, subtraction rather than addition, making this an incredibly effective diet that is also easy to follow. I'm sorry, just because the rules are only eat meat, that doesn't mean it's easy to follow. It is very difficult to follow an elimination diet to the point where you're only eating one thing. Chris: I again, could not eat a burger without the buns and the tomatoes and the lettuce and the sauce. Whatever the hell you want to put on it. Kayla: The carnivore diet is less onion rings. Put some onion rings on it. The carnivore diet is less restrictive than the lion diet. Like on the carnivore diet, you can eat meat, fish, eggs and some dairy products.

38:21 Chris: Eggs. Kayla: Everything else is excluded, including fruits, veggies, legumes, nuts, seeds, and of course, grains. So Doctor Sean Baker is a former air force officer and orthopedic surgeon who studied at University of Texas and practiced on military bases from. Chris: Wait a minute, Texas. He has some incentive to push people on me. University of Texas Longhorns. Hello. Kayla: I don't understand. Chris: It's just Texas. Texas is like, if you eat more. Kayla: Meat, you'll like their team. Chris: I'm just saying that Texas is a very, like, meat heavy meat production. No, like a lot of their economy is based on like producing meat.

39:02 Kayla: Maybe it's them cow meat. So he practiced on military bases from 2006 to 2016. He is also a world record holding athlete and having played semi professional rugby and coming in first place in Texas strongest man, among many other achievements, he is also rugby's hardcore, extremely angry at Vegans. Like super duper mad at Vegans. Chris: That's the thing I don't understand. I don't understand why people get mad at vegans. I don't think I could do it. I would love to be able to. I would love to have the chutzpah to do it because I think there's benefits. I don't think I could. Kayla: Right. Chris: But I'm not mad at them. Kayla: He's very mad. If you check out his social media, it's a lot about how vegans have taken over society and the quote, unquote, the all meat revolution is turning the tide and that vegans are bloated in skinny fat and it's all very weird.

39:56 Chris: Like he'll literally tide of meat. It's like a wave made out of bacon. Oh my God. Kayla: He'll literally post pictures of prominent vegans on his Instagram and body shame theme because he's like this huge ripped dude. But then he'll post, like, men that, like, aren't huge and ripped and go like, he's bloated in skinny fat. It's like, good lord. Okay, soy boy. So I guess after. Hold that thought for a while, I guess after being mad at vegans and being a hardcore athlete who he says always avoided performance enhancing drugs, and I'm sure seeing the success Kayla Steak is. Chris: A performance enhanced drug. Kayla: Well, it is for him. I'm sure. After seeing the success of, like, Atkins Paleo Keto, he decided to leave the world of medicine to found Meat Rx, a site where you can get connected to coaches and other all meat enthusiasts under a variety of different fees and packages.

40:46 Chris: That's just good business. Kayla: I also want to note that along with all meat, Doctor Sean Baker is also a fasting enthusiast. Chris: Because shout out to episode three. Kayla: You can't have one without the other. No, they go together. And after experiencing a bunch of anecdotal data from his own life and I guess, other meat eaters, he published the book Carnivore Diet, which again, makes paradigm breaking claims that dumps contemporary diet theory on its head. Chris: Yeah, edgy. Kayla: Now, I want to point out that when you preach a diet and when you're a doctor and you write a book in which you prescribe a specific way of eating to whoever picks up your damn book, you are doing something very serious. You are making health claims. You are asking people to trust you enough to put their health in your hands. And this is why it's so important to scientifically study your own claims before you as a doctor.

41:40 Chris: No, that's expensive. I just want to make money on the book. Kayla: Hold that thought. You must scientifically study before you claim to dump contemporary theories on their heads. But I'm sure as a real life doctor Sean Baker, he did just that. Right? And he has all the evidence to back up his claims that an all meat diet is just the ticket to good health and a great body. Chris: Definitely sounds like the science y type. Kayla: Oh, no, that's totally not what happened. And, like, I'm. Chris: Science is part of the pacification of America. Kayla: No, hold on. Chris: Am I just, like, predicting the whole episode? Kayla: No, you're not. Chris: Oh, okay. Kayla: I'm not even having to dig or, like, read the book or make this up. Doctor Sean Baker has made it very clear that there is not scientific evidence backing up his book by. Whoa.

42:27 Chris: I like that. He just admits it. Kayla: Well, because he has launched a GoFundme for a carnivore diet clinical trial. Support us as we move the carnivore diet beyond anecdote to hard clinical data. Chris: Okay, so he's trying. That's nice. Kayla: You do that before you write the book. Chris: No, no. You have to make the money before you have a chance at debunking. Kayla: He already had a company like GofundMe and be like, I want to write a book about how you only eat meat. Let's do a clinical trial. Like, motivated reasoning much? Chris: Let's do a study to prove my book. Right. But that's, again, if you've already sold your copies, like, at this point, it doesn't matter. You can be like, look, we did a study.

43:11 Kayla: I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh here. I really don't want to say that any one style of eating is, like. Chris: Better than the other. Kayla: I definitely am saying that. I don't want to say that Doctor Sean Baker is wrong. He is. No matter what I believe about his claims. But to be a doctor and write a book and launch an online community about how healthy it is to eat meat and only meat, and then literally fundraise after that to do science to back up your claims like that feels bad and wrong. Chris: It's the opposite of science. It's not. Kayla: You shouldn't do that. Chris: It's nothing. That's not good. Kayla: Well, the GoFundMe has currently raised $116,000 from. Chris: Holy shit, 70 donors that'll fund a study. Kayla: Let me read you the description. Many of you have seen profound positive effects by the carnivore diet. Incredible life changing health transformations from a broad spectrum of chronic diseases are being seen on a daily basis. While these impressive anecdotes are truly inspiring, widespread acceptance of this intervention is far from universal. In fact, due to a lack of peer reviewed clinical data, this powerful tool remains relegated to mere curiosity and is met with extreme skepticism. We'd like to change that, but we need your help to make it happen.

44:21 Chris: Due to lack of science, it's not scientific. Kayla: Support us as we move the carnivore diet beyond anecdote to hard clinical data. Chris: Jesus. Kayla: Many of you have seen the dramatic changes in your on health. I think that was supposed to be in your own health using this method. And we are asking for your help in legitimizing and bringing it to the masses. Chris: Right? So, legitimizing, not studying, and again, like, that's the thing, is, like, now, what if this study was like, oh, my God, it does work. Kayla: Like, right? Chris: I wouldn't be able to trust it. Kayla: I know. Chris: It's coming from this motivated place. Kayla: Like, I know, I. You know it's coming from a place. Chris: Like, I am fully expecting whatever comes out of this to be like, oh, yeah, it works.

45:01 Kayla: Like, yeah, I know. Chris: Like, I would. Like, there's no world where that study says, no, I guess it doesn't work. Don't buy my book anymore. Right. Like, I'm sorry. That's just. Kayla: Well, I don't really think it will matter what the study says because some of the comments on the GoFundme struck me as very interesting. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Meat equals freedom. Meat is our birthright. Chris: It's so weird. Kayla: Make healthy people great again. I believe in real science and want to end this discussion once and for all. This is a fight against the establishment. Chris: Well, I don't know, like, what is. People get so tied with, like, emotion and identity and, like, I know. I guess everything is politicized now, though. So whatever.

45:49 Kayla: Quote, I'm sick of the meat, saturated fats, dogma, and fear mongering. I'm also tired of tactical debaters whose only argument is, where is the study proof, clinical trials? What doctors are endorsing this? What are the long terms effect? All the best. It may not shock you to hear that doctor Sean Baker has likened his own gofundme to the fraudulent build the wall gofundme. He retweeted a comment that said, just like, the. Some things have to be done by us. Chris: What has he tweeted since that was found out to be just a scam? Kayla: That was the only. That was the last tweet I saw. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Referencing that. Chris: Okay, so this whole thing is definitely a scam, then. Kayla: I think that if you're like, this is just like, this other fraudulent. Don't fight me. Like, yes.

46:37 Chris: Okay. Kayla: I just. I can't. Chris: And it has how much money? Man, we need to. Kayla: I know. Let's start a cult. Chris: We really need to grift. Kayla: I just can't stop thinking about how this gentleman, the kind of pioneer of the all meat diet craze, who, like, wrote this book first and sold it, is now fundraising to do the science after. Yeah, I cannot stop thinking about that. But I came across a quote in an Atlantic article. Chris: We've established it's a scam. Kayla: It is a scam. But I came across a quote in an Atlantic article that it made it all make sense. And honestly, it makes Mikayla and many other topics on our show also make sense. So this is from James Hamblin's article, the Jordan Peterson all meat Diethye. And this quote, it's perfect. Science is about questions and self help is about answers. Science is about questions and self help is about answers. That is.

47:34 Chris: That is. That just blew my mind. Kayla: I, like, literally told you when I read this quote, I was like, I just found a quote that's so good. It's gonna be on the show a whole bunch of times, and it is shit. Science is about questions and self help is about answers. Chris: That is really good. Kayla: So let's just keep thinking about that as we now dive finally into Michaela Peterson's extension. Chris: And that's the episode. Kayla: It's been almost an hour into Michaela Peterson's extension of the carnivore diet, the even more restrictive lion diet. As a refresher, here's what Michaela. Chris: So the lion diet. So we're eating antelope and zebra. Kayla: No, no. Chris: Beef or not antelope. Kayla: Beef.

48:15 Chris: But that's not what lions eat. Kayla: Beef. Chris: Gazelles. Kayla: Beef. Chris: That's what it is. Or do they eat gazelles? I don't even know what lions eat. What do they fucking eat? Kayla: Beef. Chris: Hippos? Kayla: Here's. Here's what her website has to say about the diet. The lion diet is a carnivorous diet that consists solely of ruminant meat. Beef, lamb, goat, etcetera, salt and water. It's the ultimate. Chris: Oh, so you can eat lamb and. Kayla: Okay, yeah, but she only eats beefe. Chris: Because she's the chief lioness. Kayla: It's the ultimate elimination diet. It eliminates all other dietary variables and sustains your body's nutritional needs, allowing you to thrive, literally. Chris: It's one ingredient from being breatharianism, by the way. Kayla: How else do you scientifically and accurately test what foods are bugging you? You remove them all. Start with one food that gives you everything you need, wait until your symptoms abate, and slowly reintroduce foods. Thousands of people have followed this way of eating, reporting complete remissions of autoimmune psychological and digestive issues, as well as significant improvements to cognitive, emotional, and physical health. In 2017, Michaela started her lion diet blog called don't eat that.

49:23 Chris: Such a good name for. Also, I like the way you said it, you know, don't eat that, don't eat that. Kayla: This is where she chronicled her diet journey, starting with the early days of her elimination diethye through all the way to her going down to all beef and beyond. Chris: That's not as cool as that. See, I was thinking it was like every day she would have a thing you shouldn't eat and then write a little blurb about that. Thursday, October 22 dirty syringe. Don't eat that. Here's why you shouldn't eat a dirty syringe. Kayla: As long as it's made out of meat, it's fine. Chris: A meat syringe. Kayla: If you browse through her blog, you'll see her stop. You'll see her specifically reference doctor Sean Baker and link to his videos and recommend his Instagram right around the time that she transitions to the all beef diet. And then also throughout her blog, she chronicles her dad's journey from low carb to zero carb to lion diet. And in the middle of 2018, she even turns her blog over to testimonials. So dozens of reviews written by folks that have tried Michaela's lion diet and only have amazing things to say about it. Quote, low carb is saving my life, saved by fat, my journey back to health. Quote, starting to heal. Quote, meat proof. It's the real superfood. And on and on. From 2017 until now and really ramping up in 2019, Mikayla has been working on turning this personal experience into a business.

50:52 Kayla: We'll get more into some of the business aspects of this a little bit more, a little bit later. But I just want to point out that she was making YouTube videos and Instagram posts and websites during this time that no longer existed for reasons she currently has. Mikayla Peterson, we'll get to that. She currently just has mikaylapeterson.com and her social media, as well as her YouTube channel podcast where she praises the lion's diet. Chris: Oh, she's a fellow podcaster. Kayla: She has a lot of interviews. It's all about the lion diets benefits, and she has thousands of followers. So she's got 173,000 subscribers on YouTube. She's got 80,000 followers on Twitter, and her blog supposedly gets 50 to 100,000 hits per month. So not doing too bad for somebody whose advice is just eat meat. The end. Yeah.

51:38 Chris: Also, blog shit. This is like, so 2007. Kayla: I know. So, okay, do we feel like we have a good grasp on all meat diets, the lion diet, the background on carnivore diets, Mikayla's whole deal with her illness and then her creating this thing or any questions, concerns, comments? Chris: Many concerns? No questions yet. Kayla: Okay. Chris: I have a pretty good grasp on this, on the meat of the topic. Kayla: Okay, well, good. I'm glad because now we're going to get into the grift of it all and some of the just general weirdness. Chris: Should we call it the gristle?

52:20 Kayla: The grit, the grips of. First, we'll talk about the ways Michaela Peterson has, of course, monetized and promoted her diet. Then we'll talk about some of the weirdness that has been happening over the last, like, year with her and her dad, because it gets very distressing. So I'm gonna like. Chris: Diet wise. Kayla: We'll get to that. So, over the past couple years, since Michaela Peterson has been in the process of developing this diethye, she's claimed to have helped hundreds or thousands. The numbers change of people with her story. She said over and over that people seek her out on social media or her blog or wherever, contact her for help, and then share with her their incredible health transformations they experience while using this diet.

53:06 Chris: Okay, so here's a question. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Is this just, like, regular ass people that are switching from a normal diet to only steak and then getting health benefits, or is this, like, people with all of the idiopathic. We don't know what's wrong with you, but there's many things wrong with that. Kayla: I think it's a combination of both. Like, I think it's. People being like, this has just improved my life. And some people being like, this has. Chris: Cured all my health issues that nobody else was able to. Yeah, okay. Cause, like, that would make more sense to me. Like, the story you told was like, man, there's this person. There's all this stuff wrong with her. And then she tried everything, and then, holy shit, the only thing that worked was all meat. So I'm like, okay, it makes sense. And then you're like, and then she mass marketed it, but I'm like, how does that work? If the thing that fixed her was like, she was, you know, one in a million.

53:57 Kayla: We'll get to that. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And also, don't forget that, like, for some people. Some people just don't want to be on blood pressure medication. You know what I mean? Like, some people have high blood pressure. Genetically, they just have high blood pressure and are on blood pressure medication, just don't want to be on it. And that. That feels like something that doctors have been unable to help with. Like, some people don't want to be on medication for issues that they have and would. Chris: Doctors can't help with it. They have medication. Kayla: Right. But some people don't want to be taking medication for things. They want to achieve health. You know what I mean? Yeah, but like, my grandmother did not want to take her blood pressure medication, and it. And she just wouldn't take it, and it ended up really damaging her. Why not just fucking take the blood pressure medication?

54:44 Chris: Yeah, that's. Achieving health sometimes requires taking medication, but. Kayla: I just think that some folks don't want that. Chris: That's really. I don't. Yeah, I mean, you're right. I just. It's really interesting this, like, the relationship we have with medications is really. Kayla: Yeah. Well, as a wife, mom and bloggere, eventually Mikayla realized that she did not have the time and bandwidth to just keep doing these, like, mini email consultations. This kind of important work for free. In mid to late 2018, Michaela began charging for Skype consultations. CAd75 for 30 minutes, CAd120 for an hour, which, you know, seems reasonable, I suppose. I mean, I don't know. That sounds like my dietitian charges 80 american dollars for a half hour, 150 for an hour.

55:33 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Okay. Except my dietitian is a registered professional who is beholden to a governing body, who had to go through strict certification and education, who must continually stay educated and updated on the most recent science, or else she'll lose her credentials. Reminder, Michaela Peterson has no credentials outside of her personal experiences and her claims to have read hundreds of papers. She didn't. She went back to university, but she did not graduate. She did not go into immunology. She did not. She does not retain degrees in this. She is not a credentialed professional. This is all about her experiences. Chris: You know what experts are for? Fucking pussies. Loser vegan pussies. Yeah. Kayla: So this is just a person telling other people what drastic changes to make to their diets and health based on her own personal experiences. Because again, science is about questions and self help is about answers. Around this time, Mikayla really started to ramp up her online presence with Facebook pages, a Patreon shoutouts from her famous dad on Twitter, and on, of course, Joe Rogan's podcast, her own appearances on Joe Rogan's podcast, as well as at.

56:36 Chris: Alt Dyke show appearances. So she's been on Joe Rogan's podcast multiple times. Kayla: She's been on at least once. I don't know if she's been on multiple. She's been on at least once. She's been on that. She's been at alt diet and lifestyle conferences. Chris: Alt right, alt diet. Kayla: I also. We have touch on something. I don't want to get too much into it because it tows a line that can get uncomfortable. Chris: Is this Kayla not getting into it or, like, real person. Kayla: It's real person not getting into it. But it's just. We have to talk. We do. I do think it's important to talk about it when we're talking about online influencing. I want to point out some of the physical changes that happened to her during this time, as well as the way she looks. So, as mentioned, Mikayla Peterson is a young woman in her mid to late twenties. She's 27 now. She is thin. She's blonde. She's a white woman with standard features to be considered attractive by western society. As she's gone on this journey, she has lost a substantial amount of weight, and she often promotes the benefits of her diet with bikini pictures of herself. So one of the major health benefits, quote unquote, of this diet is weight loss, which, you know, if you've listened to other episodes, there's some red flags there.

57:41 Kayla: In one of her YouTube videos from 2019, she ends the video by showing what she looks like now. And she stands up, lifts her shirt, rolls down her pants to showcase her midsection, which is looked like, you know, I've been at the gym for 16 years. Her hair has gotten longer and blonder. Her makeup has gotten more pronounced. In short, she now looks more the part of an influencer. And she hasn't shied away from utilizing the fact that her appearance gives her power and authority in society to help sell her diet. Chris: Yeah, I mean, diets are inextricably tied with bodies. And if you're selling a diet, you have to be selling your body, too. Kayla: Do things like tweet. Like, her dad will say something on Twitter about, like, you're not gonna get scurvy from this diet. And then she'll tweet back, like, a bikini picture of herself being like, yeah, look at all that scurvy. It's just a little uncomfortable. It just makes me a little uncomfortable. But the point is, she very much looks the part of the influencer.

58:37 Chris: Yeah. And on the book cover where you talked about a minute ago, she's on that with. In her bikini. Kayla: Yeah, but the very miniature Jordan Peterson. Chris: Miniature Jordan Peterson. Kayla: It's not their book, though. Chris: Apparently. It's not their book, though. Kayla: According to her, it's not their book. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Now, like, literally, there was a. There was a book that came out, and I think 2019, and it was called our Carnivore Diet. And it said it was written by Michaela Peterson and Jordan Peterson. There's a terrible photoshopped cover of the two of them. And then the book is literally just transcripts of podcast interviews and YouTube videos. And since the book came out, Mikayla has said, like, that's not our book. I don't know if it is. I don't know if it's not. Chris: So can't they, like, sue them to cease and desist if it's not? You know, like, you're not allowed to do that.

59:24 Kayla: I don't know. She says, in China, you are. Chris: Jesus Christ. Kayla: Now, I mentioned a patreon. It's theirs and some other sites. But unfortunately, some of Mikayla's earlier endeavors into business didn't stand the test of time and have since been deleted. There's a reason for this. After some time of doing these individual $75 to $120 consultations, Michaela realized that she needed to scale this business again. She just didn't have time for all these individual consultation sessions. And what's more, she found her time being wasted by people reaching out who weren't really ready to dive 100% into the carnivore lifestyle. Chris: Mmm. They're still, like, putting little sprigs of parsley on their steak.

1:00:06 Kayla: So naturally, what's a girl to do when she needs to be able to reach her people and just doesn't have the time to do it? Chris: Why tweet? Kayla: You launch an exclusive online community and charge $599 for a one year membership, of course. In 2019, Mikayla debuted our lionslayer.com. And I'm gonna just read you the landing page for this thing because, you know, via the wayback machine, because the site has been deleted naturally. I'm Michaela Peterson. I'm a 27 year old who has successfully cured her autoimmune disorders and other severe, seemingly incurable health problems. Chronic depression, weight problems, fatigue problems, etcetera. I've helped thousands of people do the same. Now bolded. You don't get better through the medical system. You get medicated. You get better by taking that responsibility onto yourself and mainly changing your diet and lifestyle. I know how that sounds. I wouldn't have believed it either. I wouldn't have trusted this page or this story. There are ways out of dying. Sorry.

1:01:09 Chris: By the way, there's a lot of, like, Covid, denier, like, covidio out there that are like, don't get the vaccine. You just. The right diet will prevent you from getting it. And actually, sorry, another tangent. Kayla: We'll get into the COVID of this. Chris: Our good buddy of thank God of last season, Mister Ben lynch, has been tweeting a little bit more lately, and he turns out he's anti vaxxer. I know you're shocked. He's anti vaxxer and he teaches at Harvard. You just need to. No, no, he's not Harvard. Kayla: Are you sure? Chris: I don't remember from that episode. I'd have to look it up. He just says, you need more vitamin D, not a vaccine. Kayla: Okay. We all need more vitamin D. Yeah.

1:01:51 Chris: So there you go. Kayla: There are ways out of dying. And I was dying. A lot of people are suffering from health problems, particularly in North America. When I was 22, I decided I needed to solve my problems or die trying. My mindset went from, oh, I'm probably stuck with this forever. Let's do some casual research to I will spend every waking second figuring out how to survive. Because if this horrible life, the. It's gonna be what takes me out. It has another thing coming. Chris: Yeah. Which get fuck disease. Kayla: I kind of like that. I'm not dunk dying. Chris: Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, it's that part. Kayla: I've felt that before. I've had a battle with life and I've come out on top and want to share that with other people and help as many people as I can. I used to offer consultations and really enjoyed it. I've missed it a lot. I love seeing people recover, and I saw hundreds of people recover from crazy illnesses. This lion diet that healed me works for everyone.

1:02:44 Chris: I. Oh, okay. Kayla: I haven't seen it not work for people who are disciplined enough to stick to it. Chris: So the person who had a very, like, idiosyncratic, like, everybody's body is different and operates differently. And that's why you've had these troubles and you were able to fix it by this very idiosyncratic way of fixing it, says everybody's the same. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I'm having a major deja vu right now. Chris: Just checking. Kayla: I haven't seen it not work for people who are disciplined enough to stick to it, but it really helps to have a support system. I had to stop doing the consultations. I just don't have the capacity and the time, and I wanted to help on a greater scale. I get thousands of messages on Instagram and hundreds of emails and Facebook messages, and I can't respond to everyone. So I've really been thinking, how do I find these people who really need me and are willing to do anything to get better? People like me, the people who send me ten emails asking for consultations, people with no support system to get better, but the drive to do it by themselves, no matter what I want to hang out with those people who just want to nail living life, people who want to thrive. Lion people.

1:03:49 Chris: She definitely has nailed it. Kayla: Nailed it. I get people reaching out and they say, hey, I have this health issue. I want to lose 40 pounds. And I tell them what to do and tell them to message me if they need support. And they say, yeah, but I like pizza. And that is a huge waste of my time. I don't want to talk to these people. Chris: Don't waste Michaela Peterson's time. Kayla: I want to talk to people who have suffered and are absolutely fucking done with it. I want to talk to people who haven't suffered but still have that drive to be a boss. Some people have the drive, but they've been hit with the boss babe. Chris: Boss babe. Kayla: Some people have the drive, but they've been hit over the head with life so much they need some support. I want those people. So I'm offering that support in what I'm calling my lion's lair. It's a group of people who are driven to improve their lives and want to see what can happen when they optimize themselves.

1:04:35 Chris: The only people that are allowed to pay me $599 are the people that really want it. And I really want to get better. Kayla: Give me $600 and I'll cure you. You have no idea. You get healthy and you change your mindset and doors open everywhere. Opportunities become endless. Life gets insane when you're not half dead. The people in the lions lair are superhumans, or trying to be, and they will get there because I can actually devote some time to helping them, particularly if I know they're motivated. The lions lair gives you access live. Weekly Q and a coaching. Live videos, meal ideas, updates, sneak peeks at YouTube videos, access to the twice yearly in person meetups. Daily access to Mikaela for support in group chat. A group of individuals going through similar health struggles. A family like support system. Private Facebook group, private fasting group.

1:05:24 Kayla: So take control of your health now if you want to be part of the lion's lair and part of something that will help you optimize your life and open doors you didn't think could be open. Check it out. It's priced high enough to deter trolls and people who don't. Chris: Oh, that's why. Okay. Kayla: Who don't really care about optimizing their lives. Yeah, and it's on a huge discount now because I will be upping the price to keep enrollment limited so I can wait. Chris: It's not a discount if that's how you start. Kayla: It's a huge discount. Chris: No, that's just the price then. Kayla: Huge discount. I want to help. Chris: If this ends. If this ends with you saying that you joined the lion's lair. Kayla: I told you, this is deleted. Chris: Expensing it to the podcast. Oh, okay. We don't have revenue yet, so that's. Kayla: Like, I want to be a lion. I can be a lion. Fuck you. Chris: Goddamn.

1:06:05 Kayla: I want to help people turn their lives around. I want to help fix people who need to be fixed and want to be fixed. I don't want to waste my time. So this is going to be it. The lion's lair. Don't join if you're not interested in really optimizing your life. I don't really. Chris: Is this a landing? This is super long, dude. Kayla: I don't really want to hang out with people who don't try. It doesn't interest me. Join if you want to see what it feels like to be a boss, meet other bosses, and you're really willing to do anything to get there. Chris: It's like a whole blog post. Kayla: Looking forward to seeing you and getting to know you on the inside of the lion's lair. And then you're given a link to sign up for the low price of $599, which is $50 a month, which is a lot of money. Yeah, for a Facebook group. Chris: Like, yeah, for, like, you should eat meat.

1:06:48 Kayla: Okay, I understand you needing to have a support system with this, but, like. Chris: Like, if you're gonna send me a steak basket, you know, like an Omaha steaks type deal, then maybe that's worth it, right? But if you're just telling me that I should go do that, I think I'll just spend that $600 on the steak. Kayla: Well, unfortunately, the lion's lair didn't last too long because Mikayla faced quite a bit of criticism for this business venture. First of all, she's making some pretty. Chris: She's being persecuted. Kayla: No, she's making some pretty extreme health claims here. Like, she's no longer just saying, hey, this helped me check it out. She's saying, science and medicine is wrong, and if you listen to me, I'll cure you once and for all. Like, literally, it goes from, hey, this worked for me, and I had a bad medical experience to fuck everything. Listen to me and only me and give me $600.

1:07:39 Chris: I feel like we've heard that before. Kayla: Have we? Also, she obviously got excoriated for the high price point, though many followers on her Twitter praised the high price point, so many of them like, yeah, this is gonna keep the community small and exclusive. Like, this is great. Eventually, she was criticized for not really delivering on the promises of the site, like the Live Q and A's and the access. Chris: She didn't even do the things that she said she. Kayla: No, some people felt like they handed her $600 for a Facebook page. Chris: Okay. Yeah. Kayla: And, you know, does she at least give recipes? I don't know. It's gone now.

1:08:20 Chris: Like, first you put salt and then the beef. Pepper. Kayla: No, you can't do pepper on the beef. You can't do pepper. Chris: Well, you can't do pepper. Kayla: No, pepper gives her an autoimmune reaction. Chris: Oh, shit. Kayla: Just salt. Chris: Poor Mikayla. Kayla: Beef, salt water. That's all you can do. And also no garlic powder. Bourbon and tequila, I think bourbon and tequila naturally. So you can also, like, drink. Chris: You can also drink manly stuff. Yeah. Kayla: So, yeah, if this sounds like a glorified Facebook group to you, it's not that bad that it's gone, because there are still Facebook groups, if that's what you want, including something called the meeting place, spelled M E a t I n G. Meeting, which I can't fault. Chris: Them for using a pun. Cause I punned earlier on show.

1:09:01 Kayla: This is a dating group for carnivores. Chris: It's a dating group. Kayla: A dating Facebook group for carnivores or people who are open to the carnivore diet. It's difficult to navigate the dating social scene with a restrictive diet. Hopefully this helps. Chris: I don't want to date somebody that eats fucking vegetables. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Jesus. Kayla: But, yeah, she. She tried to scale up her business to this $600 a year online community. Didn't quite work out. She shut it down shortly after deleted the site. Chris: But I thought she was supposed to be increasing the price point. Shortly after. Kayla: Well, she shut it down. Chris: She shut it down instead. Kayla: It got shut down. The site got deleted. This associated social media and YouTube videos got deleted. And, like, now the line diet stuff is mainly on her website, where her blog lives, mikaylapeterson.com. And she has since turned her focus and attention to her podcast, the Michaela Peterson podcast, which is basically her version of a Joe Rogan style podcast where she interviews a variety of people on her YouTube channel.

1:09:54 Chris: Okay, so it's not about, like, her lion died anymore. It's just. Kayla: Well, yeah, it's all about that, but it's like, different people. Like Dan Crenshaw was just on. Chris: I see. So it's like. It's a. It's. She's continuing the Griff just in a different format. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Now, it's been. Chris: Is very on brand for that whole thing. Kayla: It is. It's been interesting following Mikayla's career since this initial debacle. And mostly because, like, in addition to the podcast, a lot of her attention has turned to her father and his care. Chris: What I should also point out, he's not that old. He doesn't need care, does he? Kayla: He needs care. Chris: How old is he? Kayla: I don't know, but he needs care. Chris: Why does he need care? Kayla: We'll get to that.

1:10:36 Chris: Tm on a t shirt. We're gonna put. We'll get to that. On, on masks for the pandemic, like, all the best. Kayla: Woo. Mikayla doesn't just lie and diet it up. She's also into fasting, cold therapy. Chris: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We said fasting. We said intermittent fasting was not a call. Kayla: Did I say intermittent fasting? I said fasting. No, she goes on, like, twelve day fasts. Chris: Oh, okay. Kayla: She'll post bikini pictures of herself going like, I just did a twelve day fast beat. My dad's fast of ten days. But yeah, she's into, like, a variety of other alternative health and wellness tools. And this has played out in Jordan Peterson's life in some distressing ways. Okay, now, Jordan Peterson has talked at length about the benefits this diet has brought to him. Here's a quote from an episode of the Joe Rogan podcast. I lost 50 pounds. My appetite has probably fallen by 70%. I don't get blood sugar, dysregulation problems. I need way less sleep, and my gum disease is gone. Like, what the hell? He also talked about how his lifelong battle with depression and anxiety, as well as hypersomnia, seemed to vanish as he dedicated himself to this diethye. Another quote from a conversation. Sorry.

1:11:49 Kayla: Another quote from a conversation with Joe Rogan has to do with a time when Jordan Peterson ventured out of his dietary restrictions and was severely punished. He attempted, by his own body. Chris: Okay. Kayla: He attempted to include a little apple cider into a meal, and he was, quote, incapacitated for a month by an inflammatory response. Here's the conversation between Joe Rogan. Chris: Apple cider. Yeah, it'll knock you out for a month. Kayla: Here's the conversation between Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson. You were down for a month? Oh, yeah. It took me out for a month. It was awful. Apple cider. What was it doing to you? It produced an overwhelming sense of impending doom. I seriously mean overwhelming. There's no way I could have lived like that. But see, Mikayla knew by then that it would probably only last a month. A month from fucking cider? I didn't sleep that month for 25 days. I didn't sleep at all for 25 days. What? Oh, how is that possible? I'll tell you how it's possible. You lay in bed frozen in something approximating terror for 8 hours, and then you get up.

1:12:52 Chris: Is he okay? Kayla: According to the Atlantic and other sources, the longest recorded stretch of sleeplessness in a human is eleven days, witnessed by a Stanford research team. So he had some apple cider, and then. Chris: So he beat the eleven record by 14 days. Wow. Good for him. That's because he's a lion. Kayla: It's because he's a lion. Well, no, I mean. Chris: Okay, he's a lion and can't hold down his apple juice. Kayla: Apple cider. Chris: That's. You know, when I was a tiny little baby boy, I couldn't hold down my apple juice either. Kayla: The Peterson family has been unafraid to talk about their health issues from the beginning. Jordan Peterson has often discussed his familial depression and the impact it's had on his life. And, like, even before she was a famous meatfluencer.

1:13:42 Chris: Are you coining that or is that. Kayla: Michaela appeared on television singing the praises of antidepressants and the wonder that. Well, the wonders they'd worked for her and her family. Including, like, actual medications. Yeah. Before any of this, like, she was on antidepressants and was like, they saved my life. Chris: And then. And then she turned into a meat grifter. Kayla: Yeah. Meat fluencer. Chris: That's a. That's a shame. That's too bad. Kayla: As mentioned earlier, Jordan Peterson was medicated with clonazepam to manage his anxiety, and his dose was upped in recent years to help him cope with his wife's cancer diagnosis. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: Well, in April of 2019, according to Michaela Peterson, the family realized Jordan Peterson was dealing with a physical addiction to his anti anxiety medication. She also claims that his need for the anti anxiety drugs is actually due to an autoimmune reaction to food. You know?

1:14:33 Chris: Right. Because she's an expert and knows these things. Got it. Okay. Kayla: One of the worst symptoms Jordan was dealing with was a cathy, which is an inability to sit still and irresistible restlessness. It was so uncomfortable that Jordan Peterson actually became suicidal during this time because it was just, like, so physically uncomfortable. Chris: Jeez. Kayla: According to Michaela, Jordan was taken to several north american hospitals, where he was misdiagnosed and prescribed more medications to counteract the side effects of the anti anxiety drug. It was nearly impossible to get him off the drug because of the physical dependence. Quote, he nearly died several times. Chris: God. Kayla: With. I guess that sucks. Like, nowhere left to turn. Mikayla, her husband, and her daughter flew Jordan Peterson to Russia, where he was taken to a hospital, where he was immediately diagnosed with.

1:15:19 Chris: Wait, hold up. To Russia. Kayla: To Russia. Chris: That's the. Kayla: They went to Russia. Chris: I guess Russia is the place of last resort. I was gonna say, is Russia the place you go when, like, you know, is that, like, where doctor house lives now, or. I guess, but I guess it's more of the, like, yes. We give you whatever medication we scare you with. Bear dog. Kayla: He was taken to the hospital. He was diagnosed with pneumonia, and when. Chris: Pneumonia? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Wait, hold up. I thought it was. Kayla: He had pneumonia, too. I don't know. There's a lot going on here. And he was in such poor health that the russian doctors put him into a medically induced coma for eight days.

1:16:03 Chris: What? Kayla: All of this is part of the process to detox him from clonazepam. From a statement by Michaela. My dad had the most horrific withdrawal I've ever read or heard about. He almost died from what the medical system did to him in the west. The doctors here aren't influenced by the pharmaceutical companies, don't believe in treating symptoms caused by medications, by adding in more medications, and have the guts to medically detox someone from benzodiazepines. So, finally, dad is on the mend. His sense of humor is back. He's smiling again for the first time in months. But he has a long way to go to recover fully. He spent four weeks in the ICU. He has neurological damage from the benzodiazepines, which is hopefully temporary. Chris: Okay, so that sounds good that he's getting better, but also, I don't trust anything she's saying.

1:16:48 Kayla: No, I don't either, personally. There's something weird going on here. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: But, hey, not to worry. Even as the family is now in Belgrade, don't know why they're in Belgrade now. They're in Belgrade now, slowly making their. Chris: Way back to America. Kayla: Everyone is happy, healthy ish on the Mendez. Oh, except for the fact that they all caught Covid-19 all of them, probably from the daughter playing at the playground. I don't know. They all caught Covid. Chris: Oh, no. Kayla: Yeah, they all got it. I guess they're all recovered from. Chris: Are they all, like, anti maskers? Cause they seem like the type. Kayla: Michaela said that they got to Belgrade and, like, there was no mask mandate. And so I think that they didn't wear masks and nobody wore masks. Chris: How did they get it in your. Wait, when was this?

1:17:31 Kayla: She posted about having had Covid-19 she posted about it on. In August. August 10. Chris: Okay. Wow. Interesting. So I guess I just don't know enough about what's going on in Europe right now, because I thought their numbers were lower, but I guess you can always just. Still just get it. I mean. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Huh. Like, the fact that all three of them got. But you said they recovered all four of them for. Kayla: Wait, the husband. Chris: Oh, Michaela's daughter. Kayla: And Jordan Peterson. Chris: Right. Kayla: And he had fucking pneumonia earlier and was in the hospital in the ICU. Chris: So maybe it was just Covid. Kayla: How is he. I'm just saying, how is he not dead? Chris: I don't know. Kayla: And he only eats meat.

1:18:11 Chris: He definitely should be dead. Kayla: Like, I hope. Chris: I'm glad they're all better. Kayla: Both Jordan and Mikayla have doubled down. Chris: And are horrible grifters. Kayla: Are still only eating meat even while living halfway across the world and having all of these health issues. The picture after the COVID picture posted on her instagram was of her and him at some restaurant eating a bunch of meat, eating a bunch of beef. And he. She looks so happy, and he looks miserable. Oh, no, it's just a picture. But she's like. And he's like, it's. We'll post the picture. Chris: What's going on? Kayla: I don't know. I don't know. I really couldn't tell you now.

1:18:55 Chris: Like, he has a legion of fans. Like, is anybody like, hey, what's going on with Jordan Peterson? Kayla: There's a lot of people who are like, what happened? And then there are people, like, they're fine. It's weird. Chris: Okay. Kayla: It's weird. It's very weird to me. And I'm like, part of me is like, is she trying to kill him? What is going on? Chris: Definitely seems like a Munchausen sort of situation. Kayla: It's just. It's. I think it's noble for somebody to take such. To try and take such good care of their parents. And also, it's fairly abnormal to, like, be in charge of your father's care in this way when. Chris: Right. In such a direction. Still a capable way when he's. Yeah, he's. It's not like he's, like, 90 in the. You know.

1:19:40 Kayla: Right. Chris: In a nursing home, not able to take care. Yeah, he's got his faculties, I think. Although maybe. I don't know. Maybe the addiction to the anti anxieties maybe really just fucked with his head a lot. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Definitely sounds strange. Kayla: It's not great. Now we're starting to get into the endgame here. We've learned about Michaela Peterson, her illnesses, her health and diet experiments, the communities that she's tried to grow around all this, the existing carnivore communities, and Jordan Peterson's own endorsements of this diet. We mentioned earlier that Jordan Peterson is a conservative darlingenheid, often idolized by the alt right, along with incels and the red pill and other right wing thinkers. He's anti PC and identity politics. And I guess it really shouldn't shock you to learn that Michaela, while her focus is on meat, also has this political bent she has.

1:20:32 Chris: That does not shock me. Kayla: No, it shouldn't. She has written blog posts about being angry when seeing people add trigger warnings to their posts on Facebook mom groups. She's very much anti victim mentality. She fits right in with the Joe Rogan podcast ethos. And it's really easy to transition between talking about Jordan Peterson's concerns about the backlash against masculinity and Mikayla's all meat diet. Yeah, this is something we see. Chris: Does masculinity and meat go hand in hand? Kayla: Yes, it does. It's something we see come up again and again. You know, we said earlier that we'd talk about that connection between meat and masculinity. So here we go. Chris: Great. Kayla: There's a great article on theswaddle.com called meat and the tired trope that won't go away, written by Adity Murti.

1:21:16 Chris: Yeah, it's like Ron Swanson. I was gonna say. Yeah, Ron Swanson. Kayla: Yeah. The picture on the article is Ron Swanson is Ron. Chris: Of course. That's what you. Yeah. Kayla: A study confirms that men who don't eat meat are seen as significantly less masculine than those who do. Another states that men and women perform gender identity via maximizing and minimizing meat consumption, respectively. According to a 2018 study, men ate red meat more when they felt their masculinity was threatened. In this case, the meat acted as a coping mechanism against the stress incurred for not being masculine enough. Chris: That is a really weird. Like. I mean, it's. It's both weird and not weird at the same time. Right. Because, like, it's so ingrained that it, like, makes sense.

1:21:57 Kayla: Right? Chris: Like, yeah, mer dudes eat meat. Kayla: Right. Chris: But then when you think about it's like, why is our dietary choice tied to that? Kayla: Yeah. And it's also not just that eating more meat makes you more masculine. The converse is often seen as true. Am I using that correctly? Chris: Is it inverse combatiferverse? Kayla: The opposite is often seen as true. Eating less meat is emasculating. Chris: Right? Kayla: There's a reason why the soy boy meme and insult is so common amongst alt right and incel circles, groups that have complicated relations with masculinity. Like, if you're a man and you're advocating for women's rights or racial equality, it's because you've emasculated yourself by consuming soy.

1:22:39 Chris: Too much soy. Kayla: You're probably some sort of unmanly vegetarian who dietarily castrated yourself with the food that you eat. This comes from the erroneous belief that the phytoestrogens in soy reduce testosterone production and increase estrogen production in Mendez. It also totally ignores the fact that phytoestrogens in soy don't really do that. And the actual estrogens in meat might be more cause for these concerns, but. Chris: Oh no, the meat is more emasculating in reality. Kayla: Well, it's just got more estrogen. Chris: Oh no. Kayla: Oh, and like, I've had this conversation with my own dietitian and she's like, it's not a problem. Like, eat three servings of soy a day and you're fine. So like, a glass of soy milk, a glass of tofu, brick of tofu, and a cup of soybeans, and you're not with soy sauce, you're fine. But soy boy is now used as an insult for any leftist attacking the masculinity of people that come off as too empathetic or self victimizing. Like, I've seen adult men on the Internet insult the male victims of the parkland shooting who stood up against gun violence by calling them soybody. Like, I've seen literal insults of, like, David Hogg's arms are so thin. What a soy boy. It's just like, good christ. Like, it's a.

1:23:57 Chris: It's. It's childish. Kayla: And in the hours of time I spent lurking incel spheres, I've seen that insult thrown around to attack the masculinity of anyone who could even be considered, like, simp adjacent. It's just, it's everywhere. Chris: Simp being another sort of emasculating term for those of you that are listening and don't know simp. Kayla: So remember how we talked about Sean Baker earlier? The carnivore diet guy? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Okay, well, I haven't seen him use soy boy as an insult, but like. Chris: I said, sounds like, he's the type. Kayla: He's fucking intense in his rage for vegans. And he often rants about, quote, the fucking bullshitting, lying, guilt causing, worthless sack of shit vegans who are fucking winning in a goddamn war for the future.

1:24:38 Chris: Wow, that's much more intense than soyboy, actually. But it would be harder to say. Kayla: It'S not as pithy. And I know this isn't exactly an appeal to masculinity, but, like, it also kind of is. Chris: Of course it is. Kayla: When veganism is so closely associated with women or feminized men, these kinds of attacks take on that tone. Chris: Right. I will say also that, like, this, it gets tied into like the climate change stuff too, because climate change is something that people care about on the left and that on the right they deny exists. And then, you know, when there's, you. Kayla: Even dare to say, like, maybe we should eat less meat to. Chris: Right. And part of the problem is that meat production is very taxing on the climate because methane is a huge greenhouse gas and it also has a huge carbon footprint.

1:25:27 Kayla: Right. Chris: So we have things like the Green New deal where they're like, we need to cut back beef production because blah, blah. And then people go like, oh, that's bullshit. She's just attacking me. Kayla: Yeah. It turns into Mitch McConnell going, AOC wants to control how many burgers you eat. Chris: Right? When it's actually based on, like, the science of the fact that meat production. Kayla: Is very, when it's actually someone going, let's make sure you don't die tomorrow from climate change. Chris: Right, right. So it gets tied into that whole thing. Kayla: And, yeah, it's like, I didn't even talk about it in this. But logically, everybody can't be on an all meat diet. We just do nothing. We cannot sustain that kind of agriculture. Chris: No. It's completely unsustainable in terms of what the planet can actually produce. And I mentioned earlier in the episode how I would sometimes feel like I would like to be a vegan. And I just find it, like, impossible to do because I love meat so much. But the reason that I would like to is mainly that.

1:26:22 Kayla: Right. Chris: It's, you know, it's less for me about like the, you know, pita humane stuff, whatever. It's more about the, like, the climate change meat production is. Yeah. Very taxing on the environment. Kayla: Well, it's like, you don't have to. Chris: But if I was ever to do that, right, then I would be considered a soy boy. Kayla: You're already considered a soy boy. Chris: That's true. That's true. Anybody that listens to this podcast would know that I'm a soy boy. Kayla: You're not eating meat at every goddamn meal. It's about progress on perfection. And yes, you eat a lot of meat, but also, some nights we just have rice and beans. Or, like, if I make a stir fry with tofu, you're not going, like, where's the beansenhouse? Chris: Yeah, I know. I do. I get really angry, and I launch an invective, like, mister. What's his name?

1:27:03 Kayla: Sean Baker. Chris: Sean Baker does and say, like, you're trying to control my future by serving me this little chunk of tofu. Kayla: Meat is masculine, you bitch. Yeah. The meat masculinity connection was also recently illustrated by singer James Blunt, who told news outlets that in college he developed scurvy by attempting an all meat diet. He was an engineering and sociologist. Chris: I've never seen how the. Hold on. What? Why are you getting scurvy? Like. Kayla: Cause you're only eating meat. Chris: I know, but can't you just throw in a little bit of, like, I don't know, just some sauerkraut, you know. Kayla: Let me get you. Chris: Just toss a little bit in, and you're fine. Like, if you're not. Kayla: It's actually not. That doesn't work. No, it doesn't work.

1:27:44 Chris: He's about a supplement. Kayla: Let me get to it. I'm supposed to react, I know, but I'm telling you, I'm gonna get to it. Chris: Okay. Okay. Kayla: He was an engineering and sociology student. I guess most of the other sociology students were women, and many of them were vegan and vegetarian. And he was like, I'm gonna. All these girls are eating vegetables. I'm gonna only eat meat. Chris: Atta boy. Kayla: And he attempted a diet consisting of mince, which is ground meat. Chris: Ew. Kayla: Some chicken and maybe some mayonnaise. Chris: Wait, that. No, stop. Kayla: And it took about six weeks before he needed to go to the doctor because he was feeling very unwell, and he was diagnosed with scurvy, and he attempted to cure it by adding orange juice to his diet, but that just gave him, like, severe acid reflux. So he needed to just eat like a normal person. That's the thing. Like, if you have a severe diet, you can't necessarily just go, like, add one thing. Add one thing. And, like, we need varied diets, even, like, there needs to be some variety for optimal health. Just saying. But.

1:28:46 Chris: Well, Mikayla would disagree with. Kayla: She can disagree with me on that. Chris: Regular kayla on that one. Kayla: But it just goes to show he, as a dude went, oh, eating plant based is for girls. And I'm a man, so I'll try meat. Chris: I'm a man, so I'm gonna eat myself into illness. Kayla: Yeah. The dedication to masculinity literally injured him, so I'm glad he didn't do that. But Michaela is a woman, some will say, including herself. She has long hair and she wears pretty clothes and makeup and is feminine. And for me, that doesn't really mean shit. Like, there's still that. That masculinity aspect to it. Like, think about what it means when we talk about this kind of masculine. Like, it's talking about dominance and anti victim mentality and, like, being strong and virile and anti authoritarian.

1:29:29 Chris: It's not necessarily about I'm into sports, which is totally, like, a man thing, but, like, you can just. Right do that. She's making a point of her brand. Kayla: You can be a feminine woman and, like, still forge your own path and espouse these ideals. And then, like, also when you're talking about right leaning politics, like, there's all that connotation in with it. Yeah. That a woman is condoning this diet doesn't erase the masculinity component of it for me at all. Chris: No, of course not. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Especially she's playing into it with her, like, look at my, like, male gaze, sexy body as I'm doing this. Like, of course she's going to attract that type of person that's interested in meat.

1:30:12 Kayla: Meat. Let me just read you some quotes from an old YouTube video of hers, and that kind of makes the point better than I could. Everything we've been told about health is a lie. If you follow this diet, you will rise to the top of the dominance hierarchy. If you don't, and if you want to rely on scientists studies, you will remain a sheep. Chris: There you go. See, I said that earlier. If you like science, you're a sheeple. You're a total pussy. Kayla: I'm not a doctor, and I wouldn't want to be one if you paid me instead. I have my experience. Chris: But wait, no, that's literally what she's doing, though. She's saying, pay me, and I will give you medical advice, but that's what it is. Kayla: I want you to feel like I do an apex predator who owns this world. So just, like, I. There's just some real specific anti authoritarian, anti victim. Like, rah Murica. Like, language. I mean, she's not an american, but you know what I mean. And it just.

1:31:09 Chris: She is in spirit. Kayla: It ties into that appeal to masculinity. Now, I figure I should wrap this all up by getting into the real science behind diet and why an all meat diet is a bad idea. Chris: But honestly, when you said the scurvy. Kayla: Thing, I don't think we need to, like, don't scurvinate. We know that our current best nutritional science says that a varied diet based on plants, whole grains and proteins, including lean meats and occasional red meat, is what we need. That's what it says. Chris: I'm pretty confident in saying that unless you are a very specific person with a very specific body, metabolism, etcetera, whose name is also Mikayla Peterson, you should probably eat more variety than beef. Plus salt and water. I'm pretty confident in that. And water. I'm surprised they haven't cut out water.

1:31:57 Kayla: And to alcohols. Chris: Right. Kayla: The longest living people in the world generally follow mediterranean diets, which are the Greeks. So, like, lots of olive oil, fresh vegetables, herbs, or the okinawan diets, which is in Japan. So it's like lots of sweet potatoes and vegetables, as well as herbs and rice and fish, not beef, salt and water. Of course. Nutrition science is always growing and changing. We're always learning new best practices. I just had a session with my dietitian, who I've been seeing for twelve years on and off, and I trust her more than any medical professional I've ever seen. And even she was like, oh, yeah, there are things I was recommending ten years ago that I wouldn't recommend now. Like, she even said, like, oh, yeah, some of the things that, like, I have talked to you about, like, including vegetables and fruits at every meal.

1:32:40 Kayla: Like, some of that was a little too dogmatic. And I was like, okay, you mean. Chris: She'S updating her knowledge based on, like, new findings and evidence? Kayla: Yeah. Because again, science is about questions. It's important to keep asking questions about our health and diet. The best doctors will stay informed of this and pass that info on to us. A lot of the articles I read about the almead diets get into the specifics of why our best science say this isn't a good idea for most people. I'll link to those articles for those who need more info on it. And I also don't want to say that people dealing with chronic illnesses might not have, you know, different dietary needs than most people. Chris: Yeah, or when I just said that, like, I feel comfort. I was, I wasn't just making a joke about Michaela Peterson. I was saying, like, I don't know, there's probably other people out there. There probably aren't many, right. That are like her. That's like, I guess just. My body is just gonna be totally fucking busted unless I do this one really specific thing. And, yeah, that's because people's bodies are extremely varied.

1:33:41 Kayla: Varied and different. So it's just for Michaela Peterson to say, this works for me, and it will definitely work for you and make you an apex predator is just irresponsible. Chris: Trying to grift money to the tune of $599. Discount discounted. The hugely discounted, by the way, this podcast also discounted. Y'all listen it for free right now. Kayla: Yeah, but we're gonna exclusive soon. Chris: It's gonna be a lot more than that. Okay. We're gonna do a multiply the price by a thousand percent. Kayla: So still zero. Chris: Yeah, but it's. We're. Kayla: But it'll be times 1000, right. Honestly, even the people who try out this diet don't always have the best things to say about it, like, shocking. Mikayla herself admits that the transition was very hard on her body. She experienced diarrhea and like, only diarrhea for six.

1:34:32 Chris: Oh, we're finally talking about diarrhea. Six weeks, dude, that's a long time. Kayla: Six weeks. I read an article by a reporter named Adam Gabbitt, who attempted the lion diet. So just the beef, salt and water, and it sounded awful. Chris: Just for the reporting purposes, I'm assuming. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Good for him. Kayla: Severe exhaustion, lack of appetite, digestive issues, weird brain fog, inability to socialize properly or focus on work because your body. Chris: Needs certain ingredients to function. It's like, man, I was like putting like kerosene into my car and nothing else. Kayla: Nothing happened. Chris: Really did not work. Kayla: I fucked it up. And going back to the weight loss claims of this diet, of course you're going to lose weight. You're not going to want to eat because the only thing you can eat is beef. So of course you're going to like. It's not necessarily a marker that this is good for your health. It's just you don't have any dietary choices, so you're getting scurvy and bowel cancer, and then, oh, yeah, you're also losing weight because all you can eat is meat. Just saying. But you know what?

1:35:33 Chris: The cancer things are a little more long term, but yeah. Kayla: Mikayla Peterson and others that follow this diet will sometimes post things like blood test results to show how healthy they are. So, you know, good for them. To me, that means either one beautiful placebo effect, which I've seen a number of nutrition experts posit that will eventually wear off or two. Grift. Pure fucking grift. And I've seen, oh, in her case, it seems like many people go, like, there's no way that these people are just eating beef. Chris: Yeah, no, of course not. Of course not. Of course it's a grift. I'm not even sure I believe that she is. Like, I know she had, like, the really uniquely shitty medical issues growing up, so, like, maybe her breath would be so stinky. I don't know, man. I just don't. Yeah, like, she's. How does she avoid scurvy? Does she supplement vitamin C?

1:36:22 Kayla: She says all you need is your meat. Chris: No, she. Then she has scurvy. Kayla: No, she says, look at this. Chris: No, she's has. Kayla: Look at my bikini body. You see all this scurvy? Chris: It's a scurvy. It's a bikini. Scurvy. Kayla: Bikini. Chris: No, I'm sorry. Like, it's. It's. It's a grift. I'm calling it grift. Grift on. Well, grift. Kayla: Well, even Joe Rogan tried the diet after learning it. Learning about it from the Petersons. He tried this back in January. Chris: Oh, that's right. I heard about that. That's right. Right. Kayla: He lost weight. He felt healthier, but he also had this to say. Got a lengthy quote. Carnivore diet, the good and the bad. Let's start with the bad. There's really only one bad thing, and that thing is diarrhea. I'm not sure diarrhea is.

1:37:05 Chris: Are we going to call this episode the diarrhea? Kayla: The diarrhea. I'm not sure diarrhea is an accurate word for me. Like, I don't think a shark is technically a fish. It's a different thing. And with regular diarrhea, I would compare it with regular diarrhea. I'd compare it to a fire you see coming a block or two away and you have time to make an escape. Whereas this carnivore diet is, like, out of nowhere, the fire is coming through the cracks, your doorknob is red hot, and all hope is lost. I haven't shit my pants yet, but I've come to accept that if I keep going with this diet, it's just a matter of time before we lose a battle and I fill my undies like a rainforest mudslide overtaking a mountain road. Chris: You haven't been too harsh on Joe Rogan? Kayla: I don't think you have it's that bad. It seems to be getting a little better every day, so there's that to look forward to. But as of today, I trust my butthole about as much as I trust a shifty neighbor with a heavy russian accent that asks a lot of personal questions. Okay, before we get to our criteria, I do want to point out that while western medicine and knowledge about nutrition generally says for optimal health, one's diet should be focus on whole grains, lean proteins, leafy green vegetables, fruits, legumes, and things like red meat only occasionally. That is not how all people necessarily need to or should live. There are entire cultures where the diet is not based around plants and whole grains. The Maasai people generally only include meat, milk and blood in their diet.

1:38:30 Kayla: Inuit cuisine, for example, has traditionally relied on hunted meat from sea mammals, arctic mammals, birds, and their eggs and fish. But it has been pointed out, and don't think that Michaela Peterson has not gone like the messiah. And the Inuit only eat meat burnt. Chris: Yeah, but blood has everything. Kayla: It's been pointed out that the Inuit diet. We're going to talk a lot about the Inuit diet right now. It's not a ketogenic diet. And this is because Inuit livers are generally larger, which means it allows for the breakdown of protein in the liver to then be utilized as an energy source. A lack of ketosis could also be due to the fact that while the Inuit diet is lower in plant based carbs and higher in fat and animal protein than the global average, it is not necessarily a no carb diet. It's not possible to do agriculture in the Arctic. But the gathering of berries, grasses, tubers and seaweed is possible.

1:39:20 Chris: And because seaweed has vitamin C. Right. Kayla: And because the Inuit generally eat meat that is fresh and raw or frozen and then thawed, more carbohydrates can be extracted from this meat than if it were cooked. And Mikayla Peterson's diet is not a raw meat diet. It is a cooked meat diet. Chris: I did not realize that. Kayla: Yeah. Inuit also often preserve whole seal carcasses, which allows the protein to ferment into carbs, like the protein under the skin. And blubber and other facets of sea mammal bodies have significant glycogen in stores due to prolonged dives. So carbs happen in this diet even just by eating animal meat.

1:40:02 Chris: Interesting. Kayla: Inuit are also generally not vitamin and mineral deficient. And again, this is because they often eat meat and organs raw. And organs often have vitamin C that gets destroyed by cooking. And vitamins A and D are present in the oils of fish and sea mammals. Chris: Right. My understanding about vitamin C is that it's, like, pretty fragile. So if you cook it at all, it goes away. Kayla: Right. But if you eat it raw, it's still present in the flesh. That said, even this mostly meat diet is not without some dangers. While it's rich in omega three s and monounsaturated fats, it is a high fat diet doesn't necessarily pose the same health risks as a typical american high fat diet. Evidence has pointed out that the Inuit have similar rates of coronary artery disease as non inuit demographics and may even have a higher mortality rate due to stroke. So, like, just wanted to point out here that meat based diets exist elsewhere in the world without necessarily being tied to the weird Michaela Peterson situations and are probably better for the body than what Michaela Peterson is pushing. Because, again, it's like, I want to eat some cooked beef. But even that, it's not entirely downside free.

1:41:13 Kayla: And it's not like the Inuit aren't going do our diet. We're curing all of our illnesses, right? Chris: This is what we eat. Yeah. This is just like our cultural food. Not like, eat this and you'll be the dominant apex predator. And $599 later. Kayla: But going back to our topic at hand, why, even after all this weirdness and griftiness and lack of credentials, and even after the fact that just the mere fact that a diet like this is super restrictive and, like, basically impossible to stick to and keep a normal semblance of a regular life, and even after all of our best sciences, the exact opposite of what this diet is prescribing, why are there so many people on the Internet dedicated to defending the lion diet and Michaela Peterson, like, you check out Twitter because the masculinity thing.

1:42:02 Chris: And plus, like, it's the tribal thing too. Like, people that are into the Petersons, the alt right crowd, are just gonna all rally around that. Kayla: Well, they do, like, on Twitter, on insta, on Reddit, on Facebook. Chris: No shit. Kayla: Literally thousands of people being like, Michaela is great. Her teachings are great. They swear the lion died, has changed their lives. Chris: It's a hydroxychloroquine thing. It's like somebody says this thing. It's like, yeah, that's it. That's the right thing. Kayla: Well, these people are able to trot out their before and after pictures, and they're like success stories to shut down the trolls and naysayers. And these people often also like, we. Chris: Are trolls and naysayers. Kayla: I'm definitely a troll and naysayer. These people will often, like, comfort Michaela, remind her that, like, the naysayers need to vent. Some people are just trolls, and she's doing.

1:42:46 Chris: That's what this podcast is, just venting for an hour and a half. Kayla: Some people, she's doing really important, life changing workout here. Why does this ring so true for some people? And I really think it goes back to that quote from the Atlantic. Science is about questions. Self help is about answers. When you are feeling sick and run down and western medicine and doctors aren't offering you relief, you probably care a little less about the clinical trials and double blind studies that have gone and are going on around you. You want help and, like, you deserve help, frankly. Chris: Right? Kayla: No one should have to go through what people with chronic illness go through. No one should have to go through what she went through. No one deserves to feel sick and tired all the time and to, like, get no concrete answers about what is happening to their body. So when science only offers you questions, it makes sense to seek out self help, which claims to have all the answers.

1:43:36 Chris: Totally makes sense. Kayla: Ops. It turns out that in 2019, Mikayla Peterson was diagnosed as having Lyme disease with no idea when she got it. Chris: That's the thing you get when a tick bites you. Kayla: Yeah. Lyme disease can have all the symptoms that we described up top. Chris: So, like, oh, snap. Has she just always had Lyme disease? Kayla: Maybe she just had Lyme disease the whole time and finally got it diagnosed and treated. I don't know. Just. Just a possibility. Chris: Just saying, holy shit. I was like, I had. I got ticks as a kid a couple times because I was in boy scouts and went camping, and I remember being, like, so freaked out a couple times that I was gonna get Lyme disease. Kayla: It's terrible.

1:44:16 Chris: Cool story, bro. Kayla: And also Lyme disease, sometimes, like, people with Lyme disease will experience that. Like, the doctor's not believing you kind of thing. Chris: Mmm. That's one of those. Yeah, yeah. Fibro. Kayla: Yeah. Anyway, the lion diet. Are you ready? Chris: Yeah. And now this ancient piece of paper that we always wave in front of the microphone, it's getting more ancient because now it has this whole spot of cat bars. Kayla: Ew. Why are you still using it? Why not make something new? Chris: Because this is the original Kayla. When we are the apex predators of the planet, because of our podcast, this is going to be, like, framed. Okay? We're going to have this in a frame in the lobby of our giant corporate tower that, you know, like, when you come in to, like, meet us in our office. Meet thousandth floor or whatever.

1:45:09 Kayla: Meet us. Chris: Yeah, that's what happens with podcasts, I think. Anyway, I should probably. Yeah, put on a diffuse paper that doesn't have cat barf on it. Cool. So I'm gonna go bottom top because I always do that. Charismatic leader. So are we calling that Mikayla? I guess, obviously. Okay. Right? Yes. Yeah, I'd say hi. I'd say that scores high. Kayla: Yes, it does. Chris: She definitely sounds like she has an agenda that she's pushing. There's a person in charge. That's her. She seems charismatic in a. Like. She seems like she can get people to follow her. And maybe that's, again, just because of the tribalism.

1:45:54 Kayla: Yeah, but if you watch her videos, they're really boring. Chris: Well, yeah, but remember how boring Jeff and Shlee's videos were? And I didn't personally care for teal very much. Kayla: Right. Chris: But she seemed like. And like, the whole, like, look at me in my sexy bikini. Follow me. Like, that definitely seems like a charisma type thing, so I'm gonna say hi. Kayla: Yes. Ritual eating only meat all day. Chris: Yeah, no, I think that is ritualistic. And I. The whole, like, masculinity thing definitely feels like that plays into the ritual aspect. It's like I prove my identity as a masculine slash dominant apex predator by consuming this specific food.

1:46:38 Kayla: Right. Chris: It's like, that's not that much different than, like, eating the communion wafer. Kayla: Right. Right. Chris: To express something about my, like, religious nature with Jesus. Kayla: And there's definitely a ritualistic aspect to, like, an eliminate an elimination diet. And, like, when you take foods away and add foods back in, that feels. Chris: Like that has more grounding in science as well. Kayla: That doesn't mean it's not ritualistic. Anything can be ritualistic if you bring that to it. Chris: Yeah, I suppose. I suppose you're right. So I'm gonna say hi based on that percentage of life consumed. Kayla: Hi. If you can only eat beef. Chris: Yeah, that's true. Kayla: You can't go to restaurants. You can't, like, hang, you can't do anything all your whole life is.

1:47:18 Chris: And you. It sounds like you also have to be, like, near a bathroom at all. Kayla: Times for at least for six weeks. Chris: Mister Rogan. Okay. Hi. Antifactuality very high. Like, this is definitely a grift. Like, you definitely are going to get scurvy. I'm sorry. Kayla: Or maybe you're one of the lucky people who won't, but it's not based in science. Chris: Right? So that's also high. Is it niche? Well, it sounds like maybe, like, the lion diet itself is niche, but, like. Kayla: The carnivore diet is also niche. Chris: Is it a. Kayla: Like, I think so. Chris: But what about all the meat atarians out there? Like, I love meat so much, though. Kayla: Like, there's only 700. There's only 70 people that have donated to the GoFundme, you know what I mean?

1:48:00 Chris: Whoa, really? And they have a hundred thousand dollars? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Oh, snap, dude. Oh, okay, well, that's good that only 70 people are gonna get their money stolen. Kayla: Like, maybe a lot of people have met, like, heard or, like, will hear. I don't think a lot of people are only eating meat. Chris: Okay. Niche and then expected harm. I mean, you're shitting your brains out and getting scurvy, and then colon cancer, and eventually colon cancer, and maybe you're gonna have to Russia and then get Covid. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Expected harm high. So this hits all of them. This is a cult. It is, yeah, it's the cult of the lion diet. Kayla: Sorry, Mikayla, I'm not you. Chris: I mean, I'm sorry that you had. Kayla: Such a shitty self, a cult leader.

1:48:40 Chris: That really sucks to. Kayla: It does, but that is. Chris: Don't make a cult, please. Kayla: Yeah, don't make a cult. You could have done the exact same thing. It was just once I hit that landing page, and it was like, medicine doesn't cure you. It just gets you medicated. Everyone needs to eat meat all the time, just like this. Chris: There's yet another thing that's like Scientology, right? Right. Cult for sure. It def. Like, it's almost like you can picture that momentous, you know, when she was like, oh, my God, this thing fixed my thing. Kayla: Right. Chris: You know what I could do? I could take this and monetize the shit out of it. Hell, yeah. That's exactly how it went down.

1:49:22 Kayla: I'm pretty sure I would really suck to have Jordan Peterson as a parent. Chris: Yeah, that couldn't have helped. I wonder. I mean, I wonder how much that even contributed to the whole, like, her not getting medical treatment. Kayla: I don't know. I don't. It seems like he's. Chris: Up until now, were they going to canadian hospitals stop. Because they have socialized health care, Kayla, and that means that they don't know what they're doing. Kayla: Okay, well, I'll take that one anecdote and be like, oh, that wasn't good for them. But then look at my entire family that's like, oh, this medicine saved my life. So there's anecdote for you. So it's bad. It's good. Chris: Yeah. But they don't have as many followers on Instagram, so. Kayla: How do you know? Chris: I don't really.

1:50:02 Kayla: My uncle does. He's famous from Canada. Chris: He's famous? Yeah. Kayla: And he likes his medicine. I don't know if he likes Jordan Peterson or not. What I wanted to say was that he seems to. Up until, you know, now, he seemed to have been like, yay, western medicine, because the family was all, like, antidepressants and, like, so I don't know if. Chris: He like, yay, western civilization. Isn't that part of the whole alt right? Kayla: Okay. But the alt right is simultaneously, yay, western civilization also. Boo. Western civilization. Chris: Like, oh, yeah, they're pretty schizo that way. Kayla: Yeah. So. I don't know. I hope they all feel better soon. Chris: Yeah. Like, how are they? Like, are they okay? Kayla: Well, they're in Belgrade, and he's still there. They're in Belgrade.

1:50:43 Chris: You said it was in August, so by the time we publish. Yeah. Kayla: Only I think they live there now. Chris: Okay. Hopefully. I hope they're okay. I. I don't like them, but I hope they're okay. Kayla: I'm very worried. I'm very worried about them all. I'm worried that Jordan Peterson send them a postcard is gonna die. Chris: Let's. We'll at them from our twitter. Kayla: So, yeah, lion diet. Chris: Cool. I is it bad that I. Now I want, like, ribs for dinner? Kayla: Oh, no. I kind of want, like, I want to go eat a burger. Chris: Like, really triggered me. Kayla: I don't. Chris: Despite the whole diarrhea thing, I'm still like, yeah, but I want meat, though.

1:51:24 Kayla: It's literally any. I've watched fucking supersize me, like, at least five times. Chris: And any what? Kayla: I don't know. It's happened a lot. Any. But every single time I've watched it's been like, I want McDonald's right now. Yeah, I'm gonna go get McDonald's. Like, I don't care what. Chris: The fries has done a good job of tampering with our brains. Kayla: Also, I've, like, read recently that whole thing was a grift. Chris: All that super sizing was a grift. Kayla: Yeah. Shit. Chris: That kind of doesn't shock. Like, it. That's one of those things where, like, I'm like, no way. But then after a second, I'm like. Kayla: Oh, I don't know. I don't have any proof. I haven't looked into it. Chris: But, like, his later stuff, I heard was, like, not quite on the level. Kayla: And then also, he, like, outed himself as a not a good person.

1:52:08 Chris: Oh, he did? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: That's a whole other thing. I don't know. Have to look that up. Kayla: Yeah, he added himself as, like, I definitely treated women poorly in these. Chris: Oh, that's right. He was, like, another, like, sexual assaulter type person. Yeah, but who is it in 2020 who isn't? Kayla: The end. That's the end of the show. Chris: Well, then follow us. Kayla: Do stuff. Chris: I'm gonna go eat a burger. Kayla: Go eat some meat, guys. Yeah, or eat some soy. Chris: But. But make sure you add some variety to your meals. So when you eat your meat, puts a little bit of pepper on it too. Kayla: Unless that gives you an immuno response. Chris: Nah, just do it. That's fine. I am giving medical advice. It's totally okay. And you should definitely listen to me. I know what I'm saying. I'm a podcast.

1:52:53 Kayla: I've read hundreds of papers. Chris: I've read things. Okay, well, how do you want to sign this off? This is your episode. Kayla: I'm Kayla. Chris: I'm Chris. Kayla: Has been. Chris: Cult or just meat? Meat or just weird meat or just weird cult or just meat cult or just weird meat? Don't eat weird meat. Kayla: Meat or just weird.