0:00 Chris: Do you want to go now? Because I was thinking I'll go if. Kayla: I don't have to talk. Chris: No, you have to talk because it's a podcast. Kayla: Well, okay. But this episode, though. Chris: Okay, you know what I want? I was thinking we should try. Kayla: What? Chris: We should do a cold open. This should be our cold open.

0:49 Kayla: It's your episode, my man. Do it. Chris: Let's do it. I'm gonna do it. Right around there is where I'm gonna do the music, and then we're gonna come back and we're gonna be like, hey, so welcome to culture. Just weird. I'm chris. Kayla: I'm sick. I'm kayla. Chris: You are sick. I'm sorry. I have a couple things to mention. Kayla: I don't. Can we just go? Because we are going. I know, but literally, last episode, you, like, left us on a. Quite a cliffhanger, imo. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I just want to need to know everything. Please tell me everything. Chris: There's so much content, so just for our listeners, we actually even talked about, like, maybe breaking this into a three parter. I don't think we're gonna do that, but there's just so much to cover. Like, we just scratched the surface last time.

1:37 Kayla: This is my favorite kind of topic. Chris: So before I get to that, I. Kayla: Was gonna ask if you wanted to. Chris: I feel hot. Yeah, that's what I feel. I'm very hot. Oh, I saw the best meme. Sorry to interrupt. On the. The podcast movement. I want to say Facebook group, some podcast, Facebook group I'm part of. Somebody posted the. The Jordan Peele meme where he's sweating, you know? Kayla: Mm. Chris: And the. The text with it was something like when I have to turn off the ac to record my podcast cuz it's too loud. And I was like, mmm. I feel that a ton of comments, so relatable content, very common. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess it makes sense, but I don't know. I feel like if you have central air, you should.

2:20 Kayla: No, it goes, yeah, nobody has central. Chris: Air anyway, except for rich people. Kayla: What even is that? Rich people are people not living in the state of California. Chris: Jeff Bezos. Oh, yeah. I guess I was spoiled by the AC that I had in Florida. Kayla: You have to have AC in Florida. Chris: Yeah, you do. Kayla: You have to have AC and access to a pool. Chris: Yeah, yeah. It's mandatory. So, anyway, sorry, I was interrupting you. Kayla: I don't remember what I was saying. I think I was gonna say, do you want to make a call right now on whether or not this is a call? Chris: No, because. No, I tried at the end of last episode, remember? I was like, this is definitely a cult. And you're like, let's reserve judgment. Kayla: Did I? Chris: Yeah, but that's because you haven't heard the things that I'm about to say. Kayla: I had an english teacher once when I was at some point in school, who said that the way you should read a book is by reading the last chapter first and then you read the book.

3:13 Chris: The teacher told you this? Kayla: Yeah. I don't know if they were saying, like, this is what I recommend. I think they're saying that there is a school of thought that says, you should read the last chapter first and then start the book. Because then it's like, that's terrible. I could see some circumstances don't go. Chris: To that school of thought. Kayla: And frankly, that makes sense. Chris: I don't think you should just be able to say according to a school of thought in front of something ridiculous. Kayla: And then, like, it's not ridiculous because literally every single fucking television show does exactly that. They always open with, like, crazy thing that's gonna happen in the future, and then they go ten days earlier. Yes. Chris: But then it's a frame story, then it's being presented that way.

3:53 Kayla: A book is what this person is saying is even interact with so you can choose how you want to interact with it. Chris: If I wanted that, I would have bought a choose your own adventure. Kayla: That's a completely different than choose your own adventure. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying it was interesting and it related to me being like, do you want to just say if this is a cult or not right now. Chris: It'S definitely a cult. Oh, so you'll get to. Kayla: You're calling it that? We don't have to go through. Chris: Just wait till you listen. Kayla: Oh, man. You already showed me the videos. Chris: It's. Yeah, the videos, Kayla, are from, like, their early days, and it just kind of shows. That's right. The rant video was more recent, so that probably gave you some indication, but you're probably wondering about some of the specific things that I mentioned. Yeah, we'll get to that.

4:37 Kayla: Go. Chris: I do know. Hold on. Now. I wanted to say real quick, before we start, that we keep getting awesome fan mail, and I'm trying to reply to as much of it as I can, but it's just so cool. We keep getting it. Kayla: Somebody messaged me on Reddit. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I was like, people are looking at my Reddit. That's so nice. Chris: But, yeah, no, people are emailing us, cult of just weirdmail.com, and sending us their thank yous and suggestions and things like, it's just really nice to get. Kayla: I love a good topic suggestion. Chris: Thank you, everyone that is emailing us. And if you're not emailing us, then what the fuck is wrong with you? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: All right, so welcome back to cult or just weirds part two episode on Jeff, shaliah and their organization, the Twin Flames universe. If this is your first time joining us, or if you missed last episode, I would recommend pausing here, going back one episode and listening to the soul mates, which is our 10th episode of season two. And then you can drop right back in here for the exciting conclusion to the twin Flames universe story.

5:41 Kayla: I don't know if you can call this a conclusion when it's going to be like three times the length of. Chris: The previous one, the exciting, most of the story. All right, so everyone's back now. Everyone that paused is back, right? Okay, good. We're on the same page. Great. Okay. Kayla: That's so cute that you just did that. Adorable. Chris: Yeah, I'm very cute. Kayla: That's true. Anyway, you're my twin flame. No, we're twin flames for sure. Chris: Get the hell out. So before we get started, I have to let you guys know that I'm adding a line item to sources for this episode. So if you remember, last episode, I mentioned things like the vice articles. There's some medium articles, YouTube. A listener of ours whom I interviewed, well, in the past two weeks since our previous episode went live, the one that some of you maybe just listened to, another former member of twin Flames universe reached out to us, and I was able to spend another couple hours talking to them too.

6:38 Kayla: I think it's a conspiracy. I think it's a smear campaign. Okay, Jeff against Jeff and Shalia, who are just fine. Chris: Are we gonna Scooby Doo, remove your. Your face now. Kayla: I was Jeff all along. Chris: I was Jeff all along. Old man Jeff from the amusement park. Anyway, I talked to this person too. It was a fantastic conversation. And honestly, one of my favorite things about having the podcast is actually, we just sort of talked about this with the emails, but interacting with our listeners because they give us some really great leads and really great information sometimes. Now, this particular listener, unlike the previous interviewee, did not request that we keep her identity hidden. So when we get to the part of the episode where we go into what I talked to her about, I will also direct you to her YouTube channel.

7:24 Kayla: Is it Shalia? Chris: But it was Shiliah. She's like, give me out. But it was not. Before we get to that, though, a quick recap of what we talked about on the last episode, just so we're on the same page. So first we sort of talked about soulmates and the concept of twin flames, how they're different, how twin flames are more like a spiritual new age concept. We discussed solipsism a little bit, which, again, solipsism is sort of the philosophical notion that you are your own universe. The only thing that you can really prove is your own thoughts, and everybody else is either not real or you are God. Right. The whole, you are your own universe unto yourself. Kayla: We should say that the solipsism conversation was from us, not from twin flames, right?

8:06 Chris: Correct. We talked about that. Kayla: They're not like, this is solipsism. Chris: They don't say that. I am saying that. Kayla: Right. Chris: Anyway, and we talked a little bit how there's unavoidable conflict. If you can believe that, you can love attraction your way into another sentient living being attracted to you. So the law of attraction, again, is like, oh, if I just, what's the word that they use? Kayla: Manifest. Chris: Manifest, that's right. If I imagine this thing happening and if I work on myself, then I can just make it happen. I can bring it into being just by thinking positive thoughts about it. Kayla: If you want to learn more about the law of attraction, everyone's favorite escaped cult wife, Katie Holmes, recently released a film. I think it's not a documentary, but it's about the law of attraction.

8:50 Chris: Oh, interesting. I did not know that she did that. It's also what the secret's about. So, you know, pop culture wise, if you've, if you know about the secret or read the secret, it's that. But the unavoidable conflict I'm talking about is how does that mesh with the fact that you are talking about another living person with their own agency and thoughts and desires? Kayla: Because they're not, they're you. Chris: Right? Well, that's what they say. Anyway. So we introduced the twin Flames universe, which is the group, and Jeff and Shaliah, who are the founders and the owners, runners, whatever you want to. Kayla: The charismatic leaders, the master Christ. Chris: The master Christs. We checked out their website, looked at a few videos we mentioned already. They have a lot of videos. I only selected a few for the show. My second favorite video was probably the one we watched where it was them proving scientifically twin flames. And of course, my first favorite video was Jeff's 30 minutes. Rantin into a selfie stick about how unfair vice was to him and how he's being persecuted by a hate squad. I heard you chuckling there a second ago. What was that?

9:54 Kayla: I was just thinking about the scientific experiment where it was like, here's how science is going to prove. If you did a survey, it would say this, and therefore scientific evidence. Chris: It was a classic using the word in the definition thing. Anyway, speaking of Vice, we then talked about some of the allegations that Vice reported on based on their discussions with former members. All of, or maybe some of whom. All of whom are in the hate group. I don't know. Kayla: They're all haters. Chris: They're all haters. Of course, some of the weirder and darker allegations being gaslighting and psychological abuse to members who showed any sort of disagreement or questioned anything, exploiting members for free labor. And this, quote, some students faced arrests and involuntary psychiatric treatment in the wake of their involvement with twin flames universe x. Members said, end quote. And also Jeff calling himself the master Christ. They're actually both of them, which you just mentioned. And speaking of which, remember how we had a discussion, like, as to exactly what that meant? You were like, what does that mean? Like, is it like Christ? Or is it. And I was like, I don't know. I think it's maybe one of these new age, like, you're all Christ things. I don't know.

10:59 Kayla: Does he actually think he's Jesus? Chris: And I was, like, speculating it and hand waving. Kayla: Is that why he has his hair like that? Chris: So it turns out I was wrong. Kayla: Oh, God. Chris: The person I spoke to last week that I just mentioned corrected me on that and told me that, no, Jeff literally has claimed to be the second coming of actual Jesus. So thank you for that correction. Kayla: That's why he has his hair like that. And again, his hair beard combo. Glorious. Chris: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Kayla: But definitely Jesus. Chris: It's very Jesus esque. It's. Yeah, yeah. Kayla: Which is very close to cult leader style. Chris: Yeah. Mm. Anyway, then I teased some even wilder, shittier things that vice reported on.

11:42 Kayla: Yes, this is what I'm here for. Chris: And I've also received some more confirmation about some of these shitty things from these two sources and from the documentation they provided me, which also I got a whole bunch of docs from source number two as well. So I was just, like, swimming information about this. Kayla: Swimming in docs. Chris: So much content. Anyway, so that was last episode. And for this episode, quick preview. What we're going to talk about in today's show is first, I'm going to make good on that cliffhanger and fill you in on the wild and shitty stuff. Kayla: Thank God. Chris: Then I'm going to walk you through a bit of the individual journeys that both of my sources went through to join, participate and eventually leave TFU. Then I got some additional little crazy goodies to share from various things that have been written about TFU. And finally, and this is important because I believe the people who themselves believe in twin flames. I believe their experiences, that they're having these experiences. But I don't believe that the source or the explanation for the experience they're having is actually supernatural, is actually a mirror soul or anything like that. Right. So we talked about that last episode.

12:51 Kayla: And the episode before and every, pretty. Chris: Much every episode, we believe your experiences. But what I don't believe is the explanation. Right. Kayla: Can you call your twin flame on the soul phone. Chris: If they're. I think you should be able to if they're alive even because they're your soul, right? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: You shouldn't have to call them because they're the same. Kayla: I don't really know how they can call anyone on the soul phone. Chris: I think we just need to get Jeff and I, Doctor Gary Schwartz. Doctor Gary Schwartz on the show to talk about it and maybe they can put a new product together and scam a whole bunch of people. Kayla: Soul flame phone. Chris: The soul flame universe phone. Twin flames. Twin flames.

13:34 Kayla: Call your dad. Daddy is really sad. Chris: Anyway, so I was wondering like okay, well what is this experience people are having? So I dug into that a little bit as well. So that's a taste of all that we'll get to thats coming your way and. Oh right, of course. Then well be judgy and do our judging. Kayla: Sounds good to me. I like your curriculum there. Chris: Yeah, I know. I dont think your syllabus before. Yeah, so you gotta say what youre gonna say and then you say it. And then you say what you said. Kayla: I hate that. Chris: Thats what I learned in elementary school. Kayla: Yeah, well I learned that you should read the last chapter first. So whos better here? Chris: Definitely not that. Alright, so at the end of last episode I mentioned that there are a few more bits of the TFU story that we'd get to. Well, as spiritual teachers, relationship gurus, Jeff and Shaliah would frequently match make. After all, their fundamental promise to you as a customer was if you do the work, that is, take my classes, then you will find your twin flame.

14:36 Kayla: I don't like it when cult leaders matchmake because they do it well. Chris: You remember him talking about, you got to do the work. These people didn't do the work. If you do the work. Do you remember that from the videos we watched? There's actually another video we watched, you guys, that I'll mention a little bit later, but yeah. Kayla: Anybody who does the work finds their twin flame. And if you don't do the work right, then you don't. Chris: Right? Yeah, he did it in an interview. Well, actually, I don't think I do mention it later. So we'll just talk about it here. A woman by the name Alice Hines, who's a Vanity Fair reporter, is about to drop a story on twin flames. She did a big. It's gonna be good research, deep dive. Like, she was hung out with them for multiple days. And there's actually. Kayla: She put her body on the COVID line.

15:17 Chris: Yeah. Yeah. There's a video that is on the twin Flames universe channel that says, like, vanity Fair reporter. It's. I highly recommend it. It's. Kayla: It was very good. Chris: It's sad. I don't want to get into it, but. No, no, it's just really good. You should watch it. Anyway, he mentions in there a lot, like, you know, everybody that does the work gets the result right. Kayla: It's interesting to me that I guess you could logic your way into this, but, like, I'm assuming that they match make from within the people that, like, take their classes and whatnot. So it's just. I'm assuming that we'll get to that. So it's just interesting to me that. Chris: Like, like, right now, if. Kayla: If you're looking for your twin flame, that they would be in the class. What? I'm just saying, again, there's 7 billion people on the planet. What are the odds?

16:03 Chris: So hold that thought. Kayla: Okay. Are they, like, abducting people to be twin flames? Chris: As it was explained to me by one of the folks that I interviewed. Actually, both folks talked about this, but I dug into it pretty deeply with one of them. What had happened is that after a long period, in some cases more than a year, of, quote, doing the work, Jeff and Shalia had very little to show for themselves in terms of success stories. So according to this person, the whole, like, if you do the work, you get. The result was not only not true, it was, like, very far from being true. Kayla: Right? Chris: So they, like, weren't having many success stories to actually be like, hey, look, we did it. Kayla: We did it. Oh, you mean people weren't in harmonious union, as they say? Chris: Yeah, according to this person. So doing the work wasn't generating these harmonious unions that were promised and that these people had seen in the sales pitch. So Jeff and Schley, of course, didn't want to lose these income streams. I mean, sorry, students. So that's when they started playing musical chairs, matchmaking within their own group. I told you we'd get to that.

17:06 Kayla: See, I don't like that, because that's just like all the bad cults do. That. And again, I don't want to call them a cult because I don't know yet. Chris: If you don't like it now, just wait. Kayla: But all the bad cults do that. Chris: So the timeline is basically this. You've got a bunch of students of TFU that have these twin flame crushes, obsessions, whatever, these people that they think are their twin flames, and in many cases, are people that they know that are outside the group, right. That are from their own lives. These students do a bunch of law of attraction inspired healing work, which we'll talk about later from Jeff and Shalia's teachings. In order to have this harmonious union with their objects of their desire, they pay a lot of money for said teachings and then have nothing to show for it. So Jeff and Shalia say, hey, actually, even though we are infallible and know exactly who your mirror soul is, you are actually chasing the wrong person.

17:58 Chris: Your real twin flame is so and so, who, as luck would have it, happens to be a member of our group. Crazy, right? Kayla: How do you feel? Lucky. I don't want to judge anybody for getting involved in cults because literally, we are all susceptible. That feels like an unforgivable red flag to me. Chris: But you have to remember that by the time that this has happened, you're in so far, there's a lot of sunk cost fallacy going on. Your brain is not working the same way. These people that talked to me, they talked about literally feeling like their brains were being. They used the word numbed out of by some of the rhetoric and some of the exercises that. Some of the healing exercises that they were taught. So your brain is numbed out in for a penny, in for a million pounds.

18:48 Kayla: Right. Chris: It's hard to understand from the outside because I get it. Like, I. To me, that's like what? Like you said, there's 7 billion people. You sure the twin flame happens to also be a member of twin flames universe? Kayla: But I guess you can also say. Chris: It'S a way, like, yeah, a law of attraction. Like, oh, of course, my twin flame is doing something similar to me and is in the same group. We were destined for each other. Kayla: Right. Like, that does make a lot of sense. Chris: Right. And. Well, so you know how the twin flames concept, and particularly the TFU flavor of twin flames, says that there's a divine masculine and defined divine feminine energy in every twin flame pairing? Kayla: Yeah. That's gonna. I know already that's going to lead to really bad stuff.

19:29 Chris: So these pairings weren't always aligned with how their students self identified with their gender and sexual preference, to put it mildly. So according. Kayla: I don't understand why. Why that has to be a part of it, even. It's so interesting to me that it. Chris: Would be much easier to not do that. Yeah. Kayla: Like, they're making this shit up. Sorry. They're making this shit up. Chris: Right. Kayla: I'm not saying twin flames are just people making. They're making shit up because they're cult leaders. So why be that beholden to, like, I don't know, the, like, gender stereotype? Chris: I think it's just because that's, like, they found. This is total speculation, but I think that they found a, like, a spiritualistic formula. They found this twin flames thing, right? And it has a certain set of parameters, and then they just created their. Their business around that. They created their everything around it.

20:27 Kayla: You can. Even if you say masculine feminine energy, you can manipulate that to mean whatever you want it to mean. It doesn't have to mean one's a man, one's. One's a sign to man. One's assigned woman. Chris: So, hang on. I mean, yes. Kayla: Is it because it's like. But they also christian, too? Chris: Maybe, but, like, they claim to be lgbt positive, but they're not really at all. Kayla: You're not any kind of positive if you're saying that all relationships the opposite of that. Chris: So hold on. Kayla: Anytime you're saying that all relationships need to have this and this, you're not any sort of relationship positive. You're not even straight relationship positive, so fuck off. Chris: Yeah. So again, man, we're. We need to make t shirts. I'll get to that. So Jeff and Shalia would engage in pressure and manipulation to get certain of their students to change one or both of those things. One of the both of those gender or sexual preference in various ways. Needless to say, this was what we call in the video game business a churn event for TFU. It actually causes a lot of people to be like, peace out. I'm done with this.

21:37 Kayla: Good. Chris: But not everyone. But it was a churn event, which is good. So let me go over an example with you as it was told to me. This is from the second interview. Lgbt folks within TFU, which, other than a few folks, there weren't that many, were convinced to change fundamental things about them to fall into Jeff and Shalia's definition of feminine and masculine energy. Sometimes this was just appearance stuff, like clothes. Sometimes it was actually like, hey, you're not actually gay. Sometimes they would use male names for some female people. For example, during one class, one couple who at this time was sort of like a described. So I'm sort of going back and forth between a direct quote for this person and sort of describing the way they told it to me.

22:25 Chris: So this couple was like a golden couple that they sort of had on a pedestal for being a harmonious union because it was, like, basically the only one they had at the time. So they had this, like, on a pedestal couple in the classes, and Jeff and Shaleah tried to have the masculine leaning person in this couple take on a male name and quote, unquote, heal into it. But the masculine leaning person in this couple, so, by the way, it was a. Sorry, it was a lesbian couple, two women. But she didn't want that. Even though she was masculine leaning, she didn't want the pronoun she wanted. She was like, don't call me he, please, and don't call me by this.

23:05 Kayla: Be masculine and not be a man. Chris: I don't want to use her name. But she had, like, a name that was, like, easily translatable into a, you know, like a masculinized form of a name. Kayla: So, like, it's like she went by Alexa, and they were like, we should call you Alex. Chris: That type of thing. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Yeah, exactly. Right? So then, quote, heel into it. She didn't back down on this, so things got out of control. The person wouldn't take on the pronouns or name that Jeff tried to force. And this happened, like, during a class, during an online class, where there was this whole, like, back and forth thing where this person stood up for herself, and Jeff kept saying, like, let's heal into it and let's do that. And she kept standing up and saying no. And it was like this very, like, intense, awkward situation from what it sounded like. That's horrible. That's horrible. And anyway, the person was like, nope, I'm still not okay with this. Rinse, repeat. And then the class ended, and Jeff and Schley ended up making a whole post about it in their Facebook group about these people.

24:01 Chris: Maybe it's just this person I don't know the correct interpretation here, but this. I think it was this person being, quote, out of alignment, and they weren't in a harmonious union, and they wound up getting shunned from the group. Kayla: Jeff can throw himself off a cliff. Sorry. Chris: So one guy in the recorded classes that. Okay, sorry. This is back to quoting my interviewee. One guy in the recorded classes I was in, Jeff convinced him that he wasn't really gay and said he had, quote, blocks towards women. And as soon as the guy left the group, he started dating men again because he was, you know, gay, end quote. Kayla: Like, it's hard to overstate how abusive and damaging it is to deny somebody their identity. And now imagine if somebody you paid a bunch of money to and thought was, like. Like a spirit, your key to salvation was denying your identity and, like, doing conversion therapy. Light.

25:01 Chris: Honestly, the story about that. That power couple or whatever, where the one woman was like, no. Was pretty inspiring because it was like, great. Like, dude, you stood up for yourself in a very high pressure situation, right? Like, holy shit, that's awesome. Anyway, remember how you just asked me to. You were like, well, it's not just bad for lgbt people. It's bad for straight people, too. Well, here's another example, as it was related to me by the same person. During the shuffle, Jeff and Shala got two women together after years of being told that they were twin flames with two men outside of the group and not making any progress. Chris: As I mentioned, they had been told they were both the feminine energy in their original twin flame partnerships, but now decide that one of them was to have the masculine energy and I, that they needed to wear masculine clothes, change their haircut, their name, their pronouns. And I think in this case, they ended up actually doing that and going through with it. So not everybody. Not everybody resisted this. Of course. Some people were like, that's what they say to do. I'm gonna do it. My interviewee told me that the majority of classes were women. So eventually, you're going to have to pair women together if you are pairing internally. And lots of people were getting antsy about busting their ass on the spiritual work, but my twin flame isn't getting any closer. So that precipitated the whole internal shuffling thing.

26:26 Chris: And if people would speak up, they would get berated and beaten down until they lose their sense of self and submit, end quote. Kayla: So that's why being so beholden to the masculine feminine energy thing works for them, is because then they can force people together. Chris: It's not a bug. It's a feature. Kayla: It helps them force people together. Chris: So how about that? Kayla: That's not good. That's terrible and horrible. Chris: And are we still feeling sorry for Jeff from that rant video? Kayla: I'm not the one who said I felt sorry for him. You said you felt sorry for him. Chris: His rant video was pretty pathetic, Kayla. Kayla: I don't feel bad for him. Chris: I have, like, some pity for him because I think he's got his own issues.

27:09 Kayla: Well, having your own issues, go have them. Chris: I know. Kayla: Abuse other people. Chris: Well, we've seen this in other places where it's, like, people with their own issues get into these positions of power, and then they spill over those and, like, spread their own mental illness. Kayla: That's when I stop having sympathy, though. Chris: Is because, like, I didn't say sympathy. I said pity. Kayla: I don't pity. I don't pity him. Chris: Before I go any further, I want to finally, like, actually credit this lady that I spoke with that I keep referencing here, because, again, unlike my first interview, she was okay with me using her real name and talking about her YouTube channel. So her name is Andrea, and her YouTube channel is called Dragon Heart. She was a member of the Twin Flames universe all the way back in 2016. Up until about 2019. Ish. I say ish because she had, like, a bit of a drawn out exit process. Not that it was bad. It just. There was a long wind up period of her being skeptical and suspicious before finally getting the hell out. She was super interesting and fun to talk to, and we had a lot in common.

28:07 Chris: For example, she worked on a video game, which I say, we'll get to that, but I actually ended up having to cut that. Maybe we'll do some bonus content where we talk about Jeff and Shalia's video game. Kayla: They have a video game. Chris: They were trying to make a video game. Kayla: I mean, I kind of want to play it. Chris: I don't think it ever got released. Kayla: Well, that's a huge bummer. Chris: From everything I was told, I don't even know what it was. A total shit show. So she said she had worked on this video game, so we had that in common. And also, quote, she just loves her some titties, which I can also relate to. Kayla: I mean, same. Chris: So, yes, she identifies as a lesbian and says that she feels like she personally has masculine energy. I thought this was interesting and just sort of in reference to what were just talking about, but prefers female identification and reference.

28:53 Kayla: Right. Chris: And told me that regardless of what sort of style of energy she portrays, she would have been pretty pissed if Jeff had suddenly told her she had to start identifying as male and answering to he and him, which makes sense. So one more thing on this bit. She did mention that while many students who this happened. I think I already said this, but many students who this happened to recoiled and were upset by it. There were some who bought into the group so much by that point that they ended up going along with it, did change their identities. Kayla: It's also possible that, like, that's not coercion. Chris: Like, sure, it's possible. I don't. Yeah, I don't want to. Kayla: Gender and sexuality is fluid. Chris: I don't know any of these people. I wasn't in the classes, you know, but who knows?

29:35 Kayla: No outside force should. The problem is that it's try and influence somebody's identity. Chris: Right. Kayla: Particularly to achieve financial and cult building goals. Chris: Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's like another layer of shitty frosting where it was just, like, clearly just to get people together because the whole thing wasn't working. So I'm gonna get back to Andrea's story in a bit because she had a lot to say. But first, I wanted to talk about another wild and wacky and shitty thing that vice mentions in their research and their article, and that's the whole stalker thing. So I kind of actually mentioned this before in the recap from last episode, we talked about some of the problematicness just now of the female male energy thing.

30:17 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And if you recall, there was another problematic component of twin flames that we talked about in the first episode. Kayla: What, the chaser and the Runner and. Chris: The chaser roles that are supposedly part of every twin flames relationship. Kayla: That's such a red flag. Chris: Well, according to Vice, whose article referenced several interviews, but focused heavily on a former member named Linnae Burchell, which. That's fully public. Her name is in the vice article, so I am okay to use that one. Burchell grew obsessed with attracting her suggested twin flame, a married man Burchell met at her gym after repeated spiritual exercises that seemed to encourage fixation. She said she showed up at his work uninvited to prove her alignment with love and God. Burchell counts herself lucky that she was never arrested or subject to a restraining order, unlike other members of the group. End quote. Yikes.

31:12 Kayla: Red flag. Red flag, red flag. Chris: No, no. That's beyond red flag. That's like. That's. That's once you're being encouraged to, like, pursue married men at their place of work. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: What is. What's beyond a red flag. Like, a flag is like, hey, don't. Caution. This is just. This is being shot, I guess, getting into a car wreck. I don't know. Kayla: Although I will say in our twin flame relationship, you were definitely the chaser and I was definitely the runner because I didn't like you. Chris: Yeah. And now it's flipped, and I don't like you. Kayla: Yeah, well. Chris: And you're always like, oh, come spend time with me. And I'm like, no, I want to play my video games. Then I burp. Kayla: Yeah, that's literally it.

31:52 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And then. And then you're like, oh, I want to spend time with you. And I'm like, well, I know I'm playing a video game. And then we can't get our video game playing in sync. Chris: Maybe we need. We're just out of alignment. Kayla: We are out of alignment. We are not a harmonious union. Chris: So, anyway, those two things don't stalk. Kayla: People just because you like them. They need to learn. Chris: Maybe this should go without saying. Kayla: They need to learn about consent, and it's not meant to be if you have to stalk them. Chris: But again, this is why I spent so much damn time talking about the fundamental philosophical bits. Last episode was to set up what I think was sort of the underlying problems that in a situation where you have this sociopath person leading a bunch of people and whatever, you can create these types of problems.

32:37 Kayla: Do we know how Jeff and Shalia met? Chris: We don't. I have a little bit about where Jeff came from, but we're not super sure about how they got together. But, yeah. So the thing is, if you truly believe that one another sentient, sovereign human being is actually just part of your soul. And two, you can affect change in their attitude toward you and make them be attracted to you and love you just based on healing, work on yourself. You can see where this would engender the type of behavior that were just talking about. Kayla: Yes. And some beliefs are bad and wrong. Chris: What right do I have to deny your twin flame union if I'm part of your eternal soul? Either I don't have the right to set that boundary, which is extremely unhealthy, or something is very wrong with your assumption that I'm your mirror soul. Okay, so there are a few more tidbits that I could talk about, like the fact that Jeff claims that their healing methodology can cure just about anything, including PTSD. And he suggested even cancer. Also false, which is, like, super fucking predictable. Right? Like, that your thing can cure everything. Where have we heard that before. Everywhere.

33:40 Kayla: You know who didn't say it couldn't cure everything? Chris: Who? Kayla: Soul phone. Chris: Mmm. Props. Soul phone. That's. Are you sure that. Well, wait, hold on. If I can call any. Anybody from any historical a team, couldn't I call, like, hippocrates and have him give me magic? Kayla: Hippocrates? Medical sucked shit. Chris: Sucked shit. Wow. That is harsh, man. Kayla: I would. I'm just saying, give me any run of the mill doctor today versus hippocrates. I'm taking any run of the mill doctor today. Chris: Depends on the doctor. Kayla: Not any run of the mill doctor. I'm just. Chris: What about Doctor Ben Lynch, Kayla? Kayla: He's not a run on the doctor, is he? Chris: Oh, you mean like a real doctor?

34:20 Kayla: I'm just saying that soul phone did not claim to heal everything, but they definitely were affiliated with, like, Deepak Chopra and that kind of shit. So it was like. Yeah, we're not gonna say we never. Chris: Too far away. Kayla: It's never. Chris: Yeah, it's always like, one or two. Kayla: It's two steps away. It's like seven. What is it, six degrees of Kevin Bacon, but it's six degrees of healing yourself. Six degrees of Deepak Chopra. Chris: Anyway, I could go into that, but it's actually time we talked a little bit about these stories of the two folks that I interviewed. So let's start with mystery guest. So the reason I want to start with the mystery guest is because they gave me a pretty good download on the whole healing methodology thing, and were just talking about healing, so. Good segway, self. Thank you.

35:08 Kayla: I thought you. Brah. Chris: I'm great, brah. Kayla: Good segue, brah. Chris: Self. Whatever. Yeah. Let's start at the beginning. Cause the first question that I asked both folks, actually, that I talked to was how they started off, how they got into twin flames universe. So with the first person I spoke with, they actually held some jobs prior to getting in. Well, actually. So they didn't want me to say where they worked and, like, what they were doing. But let's just say that it's not what you would think for someone who is into new age spirituality. Kayla: Banker. Chris: So I can neither confirm nor deny. Banker. Remember that lady that we met at the new age bookshop crystal store that one time? Kayla: The one that was a professional mermaid? Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Well, was it? Oh, I guess it's professional because she has the YouTube channel.

35:51 Kayla: Yep. Chris: Yeah. So, anyway, the person I spoke with, their career prior to getting into TFU was, like, the opposite of that. Let's just say that. Kayla: Okay. Chris: However, this person wound up running into a series of incidents that left them in actually a very bad place mentally. They had some medical issues that were pretty serious, and the experience with the treatment was very not good. In some cases horrible. On top of this, their relationship with their significant other at the time was pretty bad. Up to and including abuse, as was told to me. It was one of those, like, toxic relationships where despite the toxicity, you just like, can't forget about the person or let them go type of thing. My interview related to me that they felt like they had experienced a bunch of, quote, synchronicities, which I think is sort of like a new agey way of saying they had a lot of common and had some stuff that seemed coincidental.

36:42 Kayla: Yeah, synchronicity is just like a more intentional coincidence. Chris: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And actually, I have an example here. Like, have you ever had a bit of a crush on someone and then some totally random coincidence happens? You never shop at the Trader Joe's down the street because you usually go to Safeway, but then one day you go to Trader Joe's and your crush is there. Oh my God, it must be fate. I mean, like, we've all been there, right? Kayla: Yeah, absolutely. Chris: So actually, I'll talk a little bit more about that later, but I just wanted to note here that as much as I personally don't think the twin Flames concept is supernatural and involving split souls, the experience that I've read and heard people about having with an objective obsession is something I totally get, and it's happened to me on several occasions.

37:22 Kayla: Not with me, though. Chris: Not with you, definitely. But anyway, yeah, I was nothing synchronous about. No, zero synchronicities there were you to force it? I was doing is wasn't forcing it. Oh, that's with tulpas. Kayla: Tulpas didn't say they could cure everything. Chris: Yeah, cuz tulpas weren't a cult. Kayla: Tulpas were great. I miss talking about tulpas. Chris: You know what, guys? This is just gonna be a tulpa episode from now on. Kayla: Fuck the rest of us be so much nicer. Chris: Oh, man. So anyway, the person I talked to said they had a bunch of. They felt like they experienced these synchronicities with their person. On top of that, they had a hard time forgetting about or leaving their significant other out of their lives. And the fact that they shared interests, social circles didn't help.

38:10 Kayla: Like, it's hard enough to, like, end something that's toxic in that way. But then, yeah, when. When all of your, like, friends are the same and you have all these shared experiences and then also you have this like supernatural lens on top of it. Chris: They're into a community that's like relatively small as well. By the way, am I, like, talking too fast today? I'm just. Kayla: I mean, not for me, it kind. Chris: Of sounds like a micro machines guy in my own head. I feel like just because there's so much content, I'm going fast. Kayla: People can listen to it in half speed if they want. Chris: Or like somebody I know that listens at double speed, which I still don't understand. Kayla: I judge that. Sorry. I know that, like, sorry. Listen to the world.

38:50 Chris: What if we, like half our listeners, listen at two x speed? Kayla: I judge it. I'm sorry. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying I judge it. Chris: So you're judging our listeners? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Although actually if it was half listening at two x, then that would be one whole listener, right? Kayla: Sure. Chris: Mathematically, anyway, it didn't help that these two folks were part of the same social circles and were part of small communities and that type of thing. So the combination of the series of unfortunate events I mentioned, the medically ones, the events with the significant other and a few other bits, basically left this person in a very vulnerable state. And in fact, at one point said that they were even having suicidal thoughts.

39:31 Kayla: That's. I mean, that's understandable. Chris: It was at this point that they started googling things like, why can't I forget or get over this person? And the Google rabbit hole took them to the concept of twin flames. Kayla: Oh God, Google. Chris: And yep, at least they didn't, like, go to teal. Oh yeah, so much better. And then it took them to this nice couple on YouTube named Jeff and Shaliah, who could help with this exact thing. Kayla: Did they? Chris: And this is when the person discovered what's called, quote, the mirror exercise. It's a bit weird that this is the first time I'm mentioning it in either last or this episode because it's actually a huge part of the twin Flames universe teachings.

40:14 Kayla: Okay, well, can we do it? Chris: We can. I wouldn't recommend it, but basically every time I mention, like, the healing work that Jeff and Shaliah teach, well, that, quote, healing work is usually either the mirror exercise or something called the mind alignment process or map. Kayla: No, I don't like the way that sounds. Chris: We will get to map. But first, you may be wondering what the hell the mirror exercise is. Kayla: I am. I want to do it. Chris: Yeah, so what you do is you get a really heavy mirror. And then you just start doing reps. That's the mirror exercise. Kayla: You just. That sounds great. Chris: Mirror exercise. Kayla: I need to do that. Chris: Yeah. Make sure you keep your spine aligned. Oh, wait, no, sorry. The mirror exercise is apparently a quote unquote therapy. Kayla: Don't use that word.

40:56 Chris: The word that was used with me. That's why I'm air quoting it. That is used by some spiritual teachers. So it's not just Jeff and shaliah, apparently. And the way that it was described to me is that basically, external stimuli that happen to you is actually mirrored somewhere inside of yourself. So in other words, like, say, if people are making fun of you're actually making fun of yourself. So you need to look at that and give that part of yourself what it needs. Then the making fun of you will stop because you stopped making fun of yourself. So, neat that there's a focus on self accountability. But you can see where this traverses right over the line into victim blaming.

41:40 Kayla: Well, yeah. Chris: Again, going back to our point at the top of the previous episode about the dangers of the laws of attraction. Kayla: There'S absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be empowered. It is just. It's faulty to believe that you have that level of control over external circumstances. Chris: Yeah, it's like we said with the serenity prayer. Kayla: Right. Chris: So to me, it's just. It's so important to have the humility to admit that you are not God and to come to grips with the fact that not everything in the universe is in your own personal control. Kayla: How are all these people living in the year of our Lord 2020 where we're all in a pandemic lockdown? Like, why aren't they all just, like, making the pandemic not happen? Chris: I wish that. Because they're not doing the work, Kayla.

42:21 Kayla: Well, why isn't Jeff and Shalia? Chris: They haven't healed. Kayla: Why haven't Master Christ made the pandemic go away? Chris: That's a better question. I'm not sure. I really wish that he would get to it. Jeff, please. What? Kayla: They isn't Master Christ. Jeff and Shaliah? Chris: I'm not sure. Well, yes. Kayla: Don't erase Shaleah from the equation. Chris: There's a little bit more about that, actually. They're called a soul family. Okay? Kayla: Just the two of them. Do they have children? She's pregnant. Right. Chris: We will definitely get to that. Kayla: Oh, Mandy. Chris: Okay, so anyway, there are things that out. That are outside your control. You have to have the serenity to accept the things that you cannot change. Sometimes it's not your fault that continuing the example that people are making fun of you. Sometimes people are just assholes. In my own personal philosophy, everything that happens to you is like it's some percentage in your control and some not. Right? This is. This is me editorializing by now, by the way, this is not from the interview. For some things, it's like almost 100% in your control. Right? Like whether I'm going to say fart, but on my own podcast, in the middle of an explanation, which I just did, I controlled that because it's right here in the script. But some things are almost 100% out of your control.

43:34 Chris: Like if the earth gets annihilated by a gamma ray burst. Kayla: There you go. Chris: Or actually, you gave probably a better example, Covid. Most things, I think, are somewhere in the middle, and that can make life difficult and confusing. And it only gets more difficult if you have an imbalance and think everything is either out of your control and give up on being able to change anything, or conversely, if you think everything is in your control and you become an expert in self loathing. So back to the case of my interviewee. They said it was, quote, making them feel bipolar because at the place they were at mentally, it actually helped in some ways, but then it also distressed them in other ways from that point. Chris: When they started discovering the mirror exercise, they recounted a journey with stops that we've seen before, that once they found Jeff and Shalia's group, once they found twin flames universe, having the emotional support of the group was helpful. It helped that they felt understood, they were accepted, and it helped to have a system.

44:34 Kayla: Yeah, that makes sense. Chris: And they started shuttering off previous friends, which was easy to do because apparently the significant other of this person had taken most of the mutual friends in the breakup. So my interviewee was isolated anyway. Then slowly their personality became sublimated to the personality of the group. Then the group became all that they were spending their time with, even after they started encouraging some of the boundary violating behavior that we talked about before. Kayla: Just like a cult. Chris: Here's how the person explained it to me. Twin flames. Ascension school encourages obsessive behavior about your twin flame person, and you dodge your own reality. I would obsess about my ex when they wanted to be left alone. And rejection by your twin flame is a rejection of yourself. So it became a negative cycle. Every rejection and or abuse caused me to think it was my fault at a personal level. End quote.

45:25 Kayla: That's such a mind fucked. Chris: It's a super mindfuck. Kayla: I don't like this. Chris: Speaking of twin flames Ascension school. Kayla: I don't like the name of that. Chris: We haven't used that title yet. Kayla: That. I'm not shocked. I'm not shocked to. Chris: So, like I said, ascension to what? There's a lot. Ascension to a higher level frequency or something. Kayla: Vibration. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Becoming crystalline instead of carbon base. Chris: Something like that. Yeah, yeah. It's all the same. But anyway, this ascension school is sort of like a major wing of the twin Flames universe empire. And in fact, when we've been talking about classes, for example, like, with Andreas, classes that she was telling me about, right, that's the twin Flames Ascension school.

46:05 Kayla: So is this their cash cow? Chris: Basically. Kayla: Gotcha. Chris: It's a little complicated. Like, it's very mungy. You know, it's not like. I hate that word, mungy. Yeah, it's all munged. Kayla: I don't like it. It sounds like something on urban dictionary. That is. Chris: That is gross. Kayla: That's really inappropriate. Chris: Yeah, well, you would know. Jeff and Schley's business ventures are many and varied. So on top of the Ascension school, they also have that church we mentioned, the video game. And another thing that I said we would get to is the mind alignment process, or map. Remember I just mentioned that? Kayla: Yes, I do remember it, and I don't like it. Chris: So that's something they teach at twin Flames ascension school. So the mind alignment process is another one of these, like, made up therapy things that an Internet spiritual guru pedals. Does that sound familiar?

46:55 Kayla: Is McGirl. Teal gonna come up right now? Chris: Does it sound familiar to the completion process? Yeah, even. Including, like, even the name kind of sounds familiar. Well, that's funny. They steal from teal because supposedly. Kayla: Oh, my God. Chris: It's a mind alignment process is a process by which you can access and even, like, edit your own memories. None of this is real science at all. Well, I mean, just in case. Kayla: What does that mean? Edit your own memory? Chris: Yeah, I don't. That's. That's another. Like, it's just you. It's. It's like the completion process, right? Like, it's. You access your own memories, you. It's. It's not just about, like, pulling up repressed memories. It's also about, like, editing existing ones. Like, oh, that didn't happen the way you think, that type of thing. But isn't that fun? Funny how similar it is.

47:42 Kayla: So they're just thieves? Is that what you're gonna get into here? Are they just thieves? Are they just charlatans? Chris: Almost like Jeff and Shalia? Were part of the teal swan Teal tribe Facebook group, including posting and commenting right up until 2016, when they called Teal a cult leader, left the group, and suddenly had this thing called the mind alignment process. That chef kiss hands is poetry. Isn't that amazing? Kayla: That. That is good writing. That is great writing right there. Whoever is editing this universe, you did a good job on this one. That is like some end of season shit where you're like, oh, it all makes sense. And then someone drives a car off a cliff, and it's like cliffhanger.

48:36 Chris: So if you connect the dots, it really looks like they just basically stole the completion process and rebranded it, called it the mind alignment process. This is all stuff that was recounted to me by this interviewee. Kayla: I mean, yeah, there's definitely not just. Chris: Them, but also there was some commentary about this exact thing from other former TFU group members on Reddit, basically saying the same thing. They were in the teal swan group. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And basically just saying, like, they totally stole this. Kayla: Yeah, there are hella hints of, like, wanting to be teal here. Chris: Oh, yeah, for sure. Oh, yeah, for sure. Kayla: Teal did it better, guys. Chris: Oh, my God. Yeah. Teal is, like, here. Kayla: We really shouldn't joke about teal because she, like, kills people.

49:16 Chris: But, like, isn't that, like. It's. It's very, like. Remember when we first discovered teal and were like, oh, she's just a weirdo on YouTube. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And then she had a business empire all of a sudden. Kayla: Yeah, it's them. They did the same thing. Chris: And they did the exact same thing because you remember those videos. It's like, who are these weirdos on YouTube? And then we started talking about it. It's like, oh, shit, they have a business empire now. Kayla: Yeah, yeah. I thought they were just like randos. And then you're like, no, no. They. Chris: It's exactly. Kayla: Well, then, like, in the Vanity Fair article, I don't know if you're gonna get into this, but in the Vanity Fair interview, it made it sound like they live on some sort of commune or that's. Chris: I don't know. Kayla: You remember? Cause he, like, talked about their, like, chef, and he talked about, like, you know, he was talking to the Alice Hines being like, well, you've seen, you know, so and so here in harmonious union and so here in harmonious union, as if there were, like, multiple couples living there. Like, it seems like they live on some sort of.

50:07 Chris: I cannot wait for the Vanity Fair article. Kayla: I can't. Oh, my God. Chris: So I just want to kind of, like, really quickly draw this line here. Kayla: If you recall, we should have interviewed teal for this episode. Chris: Oh, yeah. I'm sure she would have gone on the show. Hey, teal, we totally shat on you in the first season, but, like, I don't know, maybe you'd talk to us in the show. Kayla: I think that teal is brave enough to come on our show. Chris: That's. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Kayla: I think Teal could definitely recruit me into her cult. Chris: Yeah, you're right. Maybe Teal would show up and then I would go. Kayla: I would go with her. Chris: Please don't join Teal's cult. Kayla: I don't want to. I'm just. I'm susceptible. It's the pandemic. I'm isolated. Chris: Get out of here. Don't join the teal cult, please. I need a co host. Like, I really don't want to have to go look for.

50:50 Kayla: I don't know if Teal would make me stop being your co host. Chris: That's true. Maybe Teal could be my co host. Kayla: That would be much better than this. Yeah, just go sit on the couch. Chris: Anyway, let's just trace this line, right? So this recovered memories, I don't understand. Kayla: How that's even part of this. Chris: Follow the bouncing ball here. So you remember the recovered memories idea from your teal Swan episode? Yes. Started with Barbara Snow in the eighties. Kayla: Yes. Chris: And that idea, cancer, what I'm calling it, is metastasized into the completion process of Teal Swan, which we talked about on that episode. And now this metastasized again to Jeff and Shalia's group.

51:33 Kayla: I mean, to be fair, it's probably metastasized, like, a hundred times over, like. Chris: Ripples in a pond. Kayla: Yeah. God damn it, Barbersnow. Chris: Anyway, I thought you would appreciate that little nugget. Kayla: Yes, I do appreciate that. That's not even a nugget. That's a. Like, I want to sink my teeth into that and just get all of them. Suck every last drop of nutrition out of it. Chris: Yeah, it's, Kayla: I want to know if Teal has. Chris: That's what my boss at my video game job calls a whoa moment. Kayla: Yeah. I want to know if Teal has any sort of opinion on these people, if she even knows that they exist, if they're, like, taking business. Chris: Oh, probably. Kayla: Does she care? Chris: I think they're big enough for that. Kayla: But does teal care? I don't know if teal cares. Chris: I don't know if she cares, but she probably knows about them. So back to my interview story, because there's just so much to content to cover in this episode. So I got to move along here. I got to talk like a micro machines, man. As I said, there's bits I even cut. So this person, this interviewee, they were getting deeper into TfU and TFAs. Tfas, which is the twin flames universe, is TFU, obviously, and tfas. Tfas is twin flames ascension school. And so deep into it, in fact, that they wound up becoming part of sort of like, the inner circle of this group.

52:46 Kayla: So, like, God, I love a good. Chris: Inner circle, NxIvm style. Inner circle. Yeah. So at this point, this person was doing their own coaching, just exactly like how, with the completion process, Jeff and Shaliah can certify you to be an ascension coach, which this person did. So the interviewee person explained to me that it wasn't really like an MLM, though, because there were only a few layers of recruiting. Kayla: It didn't have, like, similar to teal. Chris: Yeah. It did have a recruiting framework in this inner circle. So, like, you were encouraged to recruit and encourage your recruits to recruit, but it was more of, like an encouragement referral type of thing than in, like, an infinite chain pyramid with an upline and a downline. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Now, this person was, although some people have called them MLM, like, on Reddit. So it's, you know, I guess kind of depends on how you define it.

53:34 Kayla: It's like a. It's like a mlm flavored La Croix. Chris: That's right. That's just a. Just a hint of flavor. So now this person was making commission off of doing the coaching stuff, but on top of that, as a member of the elite inner circle. Kayla: God, I want to be in an inner circle so bad. Chris: They also had the awesome opportunity to do a bunch of administrative and marketing work for twin flames universe for free. What? What? Oh, you're saying there was no payment for this? Kayla: I'm assuming that there was no payment for this. Chris: Oh, of course there was payment for this, Kayla. Kayla: What, in terms of, like, room and board or, like, free classes or something?

54:16 Chris: Hold on. So actually, at first, there wasn't. At first, this person was, quote, an independent volunteer? Kayla: Yeah. Okay. Chris: They weren't getting paid for that, but then they received a promotion. Kayla: Okay. Chris: And at that point, the compensation became a whopping. I can't tell you the exact amount, but let's just say that it was low. It was in the hundreds of dollars, much less than $1,000 a month. And my interview reported to me that this was about, like, a 60 hours workweek. Kayla: That sounds about millennial. Chris: Yeah. So that's like, we're all in that boat. That's. We all got problems. Kayla: All right? That's a. That's obscene. Like, even at my first, most exploitive, like, 80 hours a week job, I was at least getting 500 a week.

55:02 Chris: Well, maybe they should not eat all the avocado toast, and then $500 a month would be enough. Okay. According to them, the no w two or 1099 was ever sent. Kayla: Of course not. Because you wouldn't be able to pay somebody $500 a month. Chris: Right. Legally, I think we have an amendment for that. But at this point, it wasn't about the money, because this person believed in the mission. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And that they were saving lives. I feel that it was a huge honor to be able to do this work. Don't you know? And as far as recruiting, you just mentioned that. Well, this person told me that Jeff and Shalia, quote, train you to gaslight. So in order to recruit, they train coaches to, they say, clear your. Clear their spiritual blocks to joining.

55:47 Kayla: That's so mlm, though. Chris: Huh. I assume my interview, he joined. Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah. So in my interview, he joined. There weren't any coaches. It was actually only Jeff and Sheilia running a group therapy class, quote, unquote, therapy. Right. Sorry. Very much. Air quote. But they grew their empire on getting cheap coaching labor from members. Kayla: That sounds about right. Chris: I will skip all the minute details of what eventually caused my interviewee to start questioning everything that was going on. Kayla: And leave, I think we can assume. Chris: But the quote I was given about the process was sort of like. The quote I was given was like waking up from a trance, boy. And it was a traumatic wake up, too. Here's how it was related to me. And so I'm actually going to quote this person. Repressed feelings from years in the group would crop up. They kicked me out for being, quote, out of alignment. So there's that again.

56:38 Kayla: Right. Chris: I was vocally disagreeing with certain things, such as whether to report coaching income, the fact that we shouldn't be giving medical advice. There was actually an ad campaign that they were trying to put together that said, we can heal PTSD doing a clinical trial, and we can also heal depression. Depression and anxiety. Kayla: Nope. Chris: And Jeff has even suggested that his healing modalities can cure cancer. Kayla: They can't. Chris: There was a Hyatt member by the name of Christine K. Who is an army sergeant who called herself a doctor. Her doctorate is in business. Kayla: Yep. Chris: And she recruited people from her position of power in the army to undergo the mind alignment process therapy. Kayla: Geez. Chris: Which the army is fertile ground for PTSD victims.

57:20 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And Jeff and Schley even had her making proposal to the US army for clinical trials for the map process, which, thankfully, were continually rejected, end quote. Kayla: I mean, I don't want to, like, praise the military for, like, how they handle PTSD and PTSD treatment, but at least in veterans. But at least they. At least they didn't do that. I wish they would do something. Chris: Yeah. And that person is despicable. Kayla: Something, but, yeah. Bad news. That is bad news. Bears, even. Chris: Mm. So, anyway, this person ended up making a video upon leaving the group. So now I'm talking again. And that video triggered some pretty intense backlash from twin flames universe, which I won't quote here.

58:02 Kayla: This is very Scientology. Yeah, it's very Scientology. Chris: Oh, yeah. That analogy was made to me by Andrea. Yeah. So I won't quote the exact backlash to help protect identity, but the verbal abuse was pretty bad. And believe me when I say that leaving out specific comments will absolutely obfuscate identity, because verbal abuse upon leaving or challenging or whatever was very common. Kayla: Gotcha. Chris: I saw it in the documents that were shared with me, text conversations and whatnot. It was also confirmed in my interview with Andrea. So. Very common. Kayla: That sucks. Chris: Here's a bit more actual quote from interviewee number one. I was in a bad spot because I had all of my income and social circle ripped away from me and had to start over. Plus, at this point, I was now trying to figure out what was real and what wasn't real. So much use of the mirror exercise had degraded my ability to ground in reality. It took me several months to start discerning reality correctly. Even now, sometimes I'll still get intense emotional waves, but it has gotten better. And stopping doing the mirror exercises. Very helpful. I've now adopted the idea of observing emotions and thoughts rather than forcing. And I've started getting real therapy. End quote.

59:14 Kayla: Good. I'm glad therapy is king. Did you say exactly what the mirror exercise is? Chris: Yeah, it's the thing where it's like you have to, if something's happening to. Kayla: You, you figure out why you're causing. Chris: You figure out why you're causing it, and you fix that. And then. So it's constantly putting you in the position that it's a. Things happen to you, it's your fault. Kayla: It's also very teal. Chris: Victim blaming the exercise. Kayla: Yeah, not great. I'm glad that I'm really glad to hear that this person was able to leave this group, even with the insurmountable odds of, like, your income being tied to it, your social circles being tied. Chris: They sound like they're relatively okay now, which is good, right? But I did. So to that point. At that point, I asked them, why now? Why therapy now, but not earlier, when you had instead decided to join TFU? And the answer went something like, I stopped trusting medical professionals because of the things that had happened to me and I would not be taken seriously by medical professionals when reporting negative bad sensations afterwards. Some doctors thought that I was making it up to get disability. Diagnostics showed nothing wrong, which exacerbated this lack of trust issue. But the horrible pain and sensations were real. Even now, I get emotionally triggered by, er. Beeping noises. I didn't know if I'd lived the rest of my life in electric shock and pain. So at this point, I was basically open to trying anything. Energy healing, acupuncture, whatever.

1:00:37 Kayla: Yeah, I get that. Chris: I'm going to set my skepticism resistance stuff to this stuff aside, and I just have to believe it'll work. I know these people sounded a bit crazy and weird and scammy, but I'm going to give it a try because I'm desperate. Twin flames universe didn't heal me, but it did give me a band aid, end quote. Kayla: Right. And that's, again, one of the problems we've talked about multiple times with, like, with our people that fall through the. Chris: Cracks of the medical system. Kayla: Yeah, with our medical system is just. Chris: Yeah, at a certain point, you know, you have to get help somehow, right? So then I asked if you had a time machine because I thought about the band aid question or the band aid thing, right. So I said, if you had a time machine, would you do it over again, knowing what you know now? Like, do you feel like you had to go through the experience with twin flames universe to bring you to the point you're at now where you're better and you're healthy and you had to, you feel like you needed this band aid and even the subsequent negative experience to bring you into this healthier point that you're at?

1:01:39 Chris: So the answer was, quote, if I had a time machine, I'd go back and give myself a dose of reality and find a different group to get involved with, a different community to get involved with might be helpful, even someone like Tony Robbins. Kayla: Damn. Chris: I think I know. I think I'd also search harder for legitimate therapy to get involved with. At one point, sadly, there was a suicide. This is still this person talking. At one point, sadly, there was a suicide of a member. A paid student had been posting in the Facebook group saying that she was struggling with anxiety, depression, PTSD. She left twin flames universe, and two weeks after she left, she killed herself. It's important for people to get real help if they have problems. Sometimes it's just a matter of finding a different therapist or different doctor. Sometimes with trauma, you do need to go see a medical professional. Vulnerable people get targeted by groups like TFU. And it can be really traumatizing when your twin flame doesn't love you back, end quote.

1:02:30 Kayla: Especially if you're, like, blamed for that. Chris: Right. So here in my script, it says pause for sadness. Kayla: Well, it just makes me think about teal again. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And, like, I know that the. This group didn't, like, quote unquote encourage it in the same way that teal, quote unquote encourages. Chris: Right. Kayla: But I. You know, the parallels are there, but. Chris: You'Re playing with fire. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So then I actually had a conversation, this person, a little bit, about my own search for therapy, which I want to talk about for a second on the show right now because I kind of really understand this perspective. So if you remember with me, and this is like super off script here, but, you know, I'm on my fourth therapist, right? And now I've had this person, this therapist I have now for a long time, a few years, and I really sync with him. He's really good for me, but it took a while to find him. And that process was scary because, like, you think that the first person you go to is like, all right, this therapy, like, I'm gonna get help.

1:03:26 Kayla: Right? Chris: This is. I was feeling shitty. I was in this confusing, scary place because being in a depression, anxiety, mental space is confusing and terrifying. Kayla: Right. Chris: And when you are expecting to get that help and the first person that you see, the first therapist you see, you don't click with. That can be really disheartening. That can be really scary and confusing again. And as you recall, it was for me. Now, luckily for me, the first person I had was actually fairly good. It was just. They were with Kaiser, so I couldn't. Kayla: You could never see them. Chris: I saw them like once every three months. But then the next few I saw were, like, not great.

1:04:08 Kayla: Right. And one of which was, like, somebody that I tangentially know and then really liked and thought was good, but just was not good for you. Chris: My style. Yeah. Just. We didn't click too much to get into in the show, but his style was not working for me. Kayla: Right. Chris: So now, I talked a little bit about this with the interviewee, because I thought that it was. I don't know. It's just. It's important to know that, like, it's okay if you actually. It's less. It's not so much about it's okay. It's that, like, unfortunately, sometimes it takes a lot of work to find the help that you need. Kayla: Right. Because it's not just like going to a doctor, like, some specialist who can be like, oh, your knees fucked up. Here's the thing.

1:04:49 Chris: Your brain is complex. Kayla: Yeah. Like, because it's your brain. It's also your. Your mind. It's also your. Like, all your experiences, like. Chris: Yeah, it's. Kayla: It's who you are as a person. You have to click with that. With that therapist. Chris: Yeah. So I just. I thought that it was good that was sort of their perspective now. Is that, like, what they wish they had done, right. Is done more work to find a therapist or a psychiatrist or both or something that, you know, instead of just kind of, like, taking the negative experiences that they'd already had, losing trust in the system, which was totally understandable. Kayla: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Chris: But they wish that they had sort of, like, powered through that, which I totally get. And it feels like I sort of had that experience myself, and I. Me, like, when I did it, I had you. We were already married. You're supporting. Supporting me, like, a ton through all of that. This person didn't have that. This person was in a much shittier spot. So, like, I totally get that. Like, I don't know if that's the same thing I would have done if I had a bad first experience with a therapist, and I didn't have you, and I didn't have a support system. Right.

1:05:56 Kayla: I mean, before you went to therapy, you went to your own scammer. Chris: Yeah. And actually, that helped. Kayla: I'm not saying it didn't help. I am saying. Chris: You're saying we should do that. Kayla: David D'Angelo is a scammer. Chris: Yeah, actually. Kayla: Sorry. He is. Chris: No, you're right. Actually, the same thing literally did happen to me. So never mind. Kayla: Like, luckily, you didn't get, like, so. It didn't consume you. But I don't think he's a cult leader. He's definitely a scammer. Sorry. Chris: He's definitely a scammer. Kayla: Sorry. Evan Pan. Chris: So things that he had to say, I feel, like, helped me a bit. But anyway, this isn't about me. This is about other people sometimes. Kayla: Well, like, there's also. We talk about it all the time where there's like, oh, hey, maybe there's. This is, like, a benefit here. Like, I talked about, like, some heal videos that I watched. I was like, that actually helped change my perspective. I don't want to join her cult because she kills people. I don't know if I'm seeing any benefits here.

1:06:48 Chris: Well, that's why I specifically asked that question, too. Kayla: Right. Chris: That's why I said, like, you knowing what you know now, would you do it again? And the answer was specifically no. Kayla: Yeah, this seems just bad. There's just nothing good. Chris: So the final two questions I asked in my interview were, do Jeff and Shalia drink their own Kool Aid? Since you and I talk about that a lot on the show, right. We're always confused and curious about whether the charismatic leaders believe what they're selling or not. And then I also asked this person themselves if they still believed in twin flames. And here's how the answers went. I think Jeff and Shalia drink their own Kool Aid, and other people in the group do, too. They are delusion into believing what they say. Jeff exhibits psychopathic traits. From what I have seen, he knows how to control people and thinks it's his right to do so. And then this is the part regarding believing in twin flames. Quote, no, it's unhealthy to put a label on a significant other that puts so much weight on them.

1:07:43 Chris: Unhealthy to latch onto ideas like that, to force that on others. It makes it to where people apply twin flame to rejection. In reality, your partner shouldn't be a relationship that is that dramatic and rocky and painful. Jeff and Shalia say it's not supposed to be crazy if you're doing your healing work, and then it won't be crazy, but people will call their boyfriend or girlfriend an abusive relationship, their twin flame. I am at peace with my relationship and love life right now, end quote. Kayla: That's great. It's really nice. Chris: Yeah. So here we are again. We come back to this, like, fundamental solipsism of the concept, right? That's sort of what this person was talking about. Talking about. A lot of the talk about twin flames is that you are on a journey to unite with your twin flame, but another human being isn't a quest for you to complete in your own personal hero's journey video game. They are not game characters in your life waiting for you to heal yourself so they can fall head over heels, even if they're, like, already married or something.

1:08:41 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And this is also personal for me as well. As you know, I've struggled a lot with relationships before we got together and. Kayla: Yeah, loser. Chris: Sorry. I know. No, I'm definitely leaving that in. Yeah, this is. This is a twin flame relationship because you abused me. Kayla: You're the one who chased me. Chris: That doesn't mean that you're not the abuser. Well, anyway, I've done a lot of contemplation as to why that is. And I think that in some senses, I shared a lot of the pathology here. Like, I didn't believe in twin flames, like, in the supernatural sense, but I think I very much treated some of the women in my life that were, like, as an object of my desire. Right. And in some cases, I had some levels of obsession, too. And, like, can't forget about this person type of mentality. And it really dehumanized them into, I must go obtain this relationship like it's a golden fleece, and once I do, everything will better.

1:09:37 Kayla: Right, right. Chris: But that's not how relationships work, and. Kayla: That'S not how people are. Chris: I don't think I became successful in a romantic relationship until I really, truly understood that we're both in this together and that we're each our own real person. And that falling in love is more about sharing ideas and experiences and growing together than it is about obsessively pursuing a romantic, idealized notion of a person. Kayla: Like, the second you realized that, I was like, okay, yeah, let's date. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I didn't even know that you, like, did all this introspection to, like, figure out your shit, but there's just. Chris: Yeah, you gotta hide it well. Kayla: But I'm just saying there was obviously something shifted energetically.

1:10:19 Chris: Well, I found this thing called the. Kayla: Mirror exercise for me to intuit that. That there was something good happening. And it was like, okay, well, yeah. Chris: Funnily enough, I mean, it was like me working on myself. Kayla: Yeah, that's what I mean. Chris: So. Yeah, so it wasn't. Even though we're like, mirror exercise, it totally does suck. But, like, what we're not saying is, you shouldn't work on yourself. What we are saying is not everything is your fault. You're not to blame for stuff. It's not about healing yourself of ills if somebody's treating you poorly. Kayla: Right. Chris: Not about healing yourself to get somebody to like you. It's about. I lost my train of thought.

1:11:02 Kayla: Well, it's just. It's. It's also. Whatever you were gonna say. Who cares? It's really important to remember that other people are other people. Chris: And that's kind of, that's the main thing. Kayla: No more, no less. They're not a. This magical thing that's going to fix you or make life all of a sudden, like, what it could be. They're not something for you to get. Like, another person is another person. And that's pretty much, it doesn't work out. It doesn't work out and you move on because there are other people. Chris: That's the name of the episode. Other people are other people. Kayla: Other people are other people. So just remember that another person is another person, and we're nothing. We're not all the hero of the movie.

1:11:50 Chris: Right. Kayla: And it's really hard to not feel like the hero of the movie. We all kind of feel like we're the hero of the movie. Chris: Right. Kayla: But everybody's the hero of their movie, so no one's the hero of their movie. Chris: Well said. Kayla: Fuck you. You're the one who's like, do you all this episode. Chris: That's right. That's basically what I say on this show. So we talked a lot about my first interviewee, but now I also want to give you a little bit of perspective from Andrea, who is the person I talked to last week. Kayla: Yes, I remember this conversation because you were in here for, like, hours, and. Chris: Then I came out and I was like, whoa. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So we actually covered some of what she had to say back at the top of the episode when were talking about some of the encouraged gender reassignment stuff. So I got a lot of information on that from her. But I also want to highlight a few more interesting from our conversation. And I'm going to start again with the bookends of her Tfu journey because I want to compare and contrast with the other person I spoke with. So I asked Andrea the question again. What got you into the group? And of course, I was already in bias to receive this narrative about vulnerability and desperation, but to my surprise and interest, that's not the story she told me. Instead, she explained to me I didn't have a lot of the vulnerability and desperation and trauma that some people come into the group with.

1:13:11 Chris: I was looking for personal development. I have a grandma that's very spiritually open minded, so I got interested in spirituality when I was younger. Plus, I'm logical in the sense that if I don't know about something in a field, I will look for an expert or a guide. So back in 2016, I knew that I wanted to settle down and find my soul mate and have a family. I had a few girlfriends in the past, but I wanted something that was more long term and serious. So I looked for a relationship coach guru and having an interest in spirituality. I looked at some videos online and came across a channel about twin flames. I had never heard the concept before, so I started researching, and then I came across one of Jeff and she's older videos about what a twin flame was.

1:13:52 Chris: And then they started cropping up more and more in my suggested YouTube feed. And then Jeff posted a video again, this is all in 2016, that he was going to start doing twin flame coaching. So I decided to see what it was all about. I did the free consult, seemed fine, so I signed up for class sessions, end quote. Kayla: That's a really interesting way of getting into it. Just because it's not the typical cult victim. Chris: Yeah. So that's actually the whole reason I wanted to go over that. I mean, other than just telling this person's story, but not only for TFU, but in general on the show and in the larger, like, anti cult movement, there's this overriding narrative that people getting into groups like this are targeted and vulnerable and desperate. And while I still think that's true a lot of the time, this was a really important reality check for me. The real world isn't so simple and doesn't always match the sense making stories that we tell ourselves. And in this case, I think that, like, the whole, well, they prey on desperate people is, like, one of the things that we use to justify the negative connotation of the word cult.

1:14:57 Kayla: Right. Chris: And to justify how we sometimes view members of a cult. Kayla: Oh, yeah, it's definitely a way to, like, other. Like, this is why I will never be a cult victim is because I'm not, like, weak and vulnerable and desperate right now. But it's like, no, we all. It is very human to be susceptible. Susceptible to these things. It's not necessarily. Chris: And you can even get into them. It almost feels like in this case, susceptible isn't even the right word. It's just like this person got into it because at first, they don't lead with the crazy stuff they lead with, like, hey, I'm gonna be a relationship coach. Okay, cool. Let's do it. Right? Kayla: That's David Dangelo. Chris: Right? Exactly. So. But, yeah, but, like, notice it's saying that, quote, everyone in a cult is just a manipulated, desperate person that removes people's agency, and it gives the rest of us a pretty wide latitude for what's justified in getting them out, which as we talked about in our first episode of season two, about the cult awareness network and cult deprogramming, that can lead to some pretty destructive outcomes, too, if taken to the extreme, none of this absolves any of the terrible things that twin Flame's universe is responsible for. And I. As for Andrea herself, well, she had a pretty poor experience and witnessed some pretty poor behavior and thinks it was definitely a cult. So I'm not pointing to her agency as a way of justifying Jeff and Shalia, not at all.

1:16:19 Chris: Rather, I'm pointing to it to highlight that members of the group, and maybe all groups, for that matter, are not just, like, characters in a story that I want to tell. They're real people with a vast array of experiences and motivations, and they have their own brains, including people that are members of, quote unquote cults. Kayla: So it's important to remember that the people you're into are other people. And it's important to remember that just every other people is other people. Chris: Yeah, because, I mean, if I ask you that, picture a cult member right now in your head. Like, you're probably picturing, like, I don't know, they're wearing some robes and, like, they look dead in the face. Like, you know, like, that's sort of like, this default, like, you know, cultist thing, this perspective that we have. And this is an important reality check for that. For me, anyway, after Andrea joined, she had a somewhat similar journey as the other person in terms of, like, taking classes and being in the TFU Facebook group, or, as she told me, groups, since there were at least four Facebook groups for various arms of the TFU business empire. She didn't tell me that she did any of her own coaching. So I don't think she dove in as deep into the group as the previous interviewee.

1:17:23 Chris: I don't think she was ever, like, a full on true believer in her circle person, but she had another poor experience with her twin flame. It was, in this case, just less about, like, pushing, like, the boundary crossing stuff, and more about, like, the fact that her twin flame that Jeff and Shalea selected for her actually turned out to be asexual. So in case listeners don't know what that is, that just means that you, the person that identifies asexual, is just not interested that much in sexual relationships. They'll still get into a relationship. Kayla: They don't experience sexual attraction, but they. Chris: Don'T experience sexual attraction. So that's definitely not what Andrea was looking for. So how could this person be her twin flame?

1:18:03 Kayla: Right. Chris: So this disillusionment coming after several years of spending money on classes, plus witnessing the whole horrible gender sexuality assignment stuff that I talked about before. Kayla: Insane. Chris: Plus some really annoying billing issues that she had after leaving the Facebook groups. Kayla: Oh, God. Chris: Actually, let me talk about that real quick. Essentially, she, like, she left these groups because she was leaving the group, right. But she still expected to have access to the classes that she had paid for. Kayla: Right. Chris: And then found that she didn't and had to, like, fight to receive a refund, which I'm not even sure she ever did. Kayla: What the fuck? Chris: Because, you know, it's, like, totally normal for a business to remove your access to content when you become a suppressive or. Sorry, I mean, when you become out of alignment. Right. That's totally normal for a business to do that.

1:18:49 Kayla: That's not how business works. Chris: So. Yeah, P's. She mentioned to me that when folks do leave TFU, it's like a full on ties cutting process. You have to. Kayla: So it's Scientology. Chris: All the groups and block all the people and everything because Jeff and Shalia, allegedly, according to this person, have people spying on former members online. Kayla: That sounds. I believe that. Chris: Doesn't it keep getting better and better? Kayla: It's just a mini Scientology. Chris: I know, right? Well, you watch the Scientology show. It's on the brain also. I don't know, minus the aliens. Maybe they have aliens. Who knows? Who knows? Kayla: They seem more Jesus II than alien y.

1:19:30 Chris: Who knows, though, Kayla. But yeah, maybe. Maybe Jesus an Aliena. I don't know. Kayla: Jesus was a starseed. You heard it here first. Chris: Andrea also mentioned that it was hard for her to leave because, among other things, she had a friend in the group, and she wanted to tell her about her plans to leave, but was, like, really afraid that the friend would. Kayla: Snitch to gesture, just like Scientology, and. Chris: That they and their followers would start with the whole verbal abuse thing. And then it turns out the friend ended up coming to her to say, like, I need to talk to you about something important. And it was the exact same thing. And the friend was like, I've been thinking about leaving, but I've been, like, really afraid to tell you. Ended up being, like, a huge relief because then she could be like, oh, my God. Yeah, me too.

1:20:15 Kayla: Oh, man. Yeah, that's where the power lies. Like, that's where the cult does, is that it makes you afraid to be honest with other people. And then once you actually realize you can, it's like, oh, you get some of your power back. Chris: Yeah, it's really interesting. Okay. So there's actually a lot more to cover. I think I'm gonna make some hard cuts here. Like, there's some interesting stuff we just don't have time for. Like, I. Andrea told me a bit about, like, the video game thing, but I'm ending up cutting that content. I'm very sorry. Kayla: Oh, man. Chris: If we do some bonus content on this, maybe I'll talk more about that in there. Kayla: But I would. I would. Chris: Here on the main show, I would. You want to know? Kayla: No, I would fight you to have it in, but it is way too hot in here right now.

1:20:58 Chris: Yeah. Like I said, bonus content. One day we'll get to that. But I did want to talk about. On the show, though, one more thing that Andrea and the previous interviewee both talked to me about a bit, and that's family. Kayla: No, I don't want to do this part. Chris: Many cult like organization. No, this part's fun. So. Well, the first part's not fun, and then it gets fun. Kayla: Okay. Chris: So many cult like organizations get accused of, quote, family separation. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And TFU. Ascension school is no different. Kayla: Well, I mean, Scientology does it. I think Jim Jones did it every minute. The United States of America does it. Chris: So we also mentioned this in our bullet points about, like, the vice article. They bring up the family separation stuff there as well. But the way Andrea described to me in this case, and my guess is, actually, this is a much more common way of doing it than, like, a cult leader saying, like, cut off your family. But the way Andrea explained it was. It was more like a soft separation. Right. So it's something as simple as a member saying, well, you know, my. My mom spanked me when I was younger for when I sneaking. I was. I snuck some cookies or some cake. And then that gets translated to, oh, your parents were abusing. Do you need that kind of abuse in your life? Choose love.

1:22:13 Kayla: That is also very teal. Remember how teal, like, makes everyone convinced that their parents were abusive? Chris: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was, like, one of Teal's main pillars. Yeah, that's one of the main pillars of the whole, like, recovered memory thing. And they do the same thing with friend ties. Like, the same old. Like, do they really have your best interests at heart? So that's the shitty bit about family. But here's the fun bit. So we talked a little bit last episode and earlier this episode that Jeff and Sheila are trying to start their own family, and. Holy crap, does this get weird. Kayla: What? Why? Chris: So I asked Andrea questions. Wait. Kayla: Yeah, actually, that's my question is this. Incest. Chris: No.

1:22:53 Kayla: If you fuck yourself and have a kid. Chris: No, I didn't ask that part. Kayla: I'm just saying to you and I right now, if you. Chris: No, it's not incest, it's masturbation. Kayla: But you make a kid out of it. Chris: Yeah. You know, it's like you can. There's things that produce asexual. Kayla: That's bad for the genetic diversity of the species. But you're genes are different. Chris: Your same soul, different genes. Kayla: So it's fine, but it still feels like fucking your clone and making it. Chris: Is a little bit like that. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Kayla: Don't fuck your clone, guys. Chris: Well, you say you're my twin flame. So sick. PSA. Don't fuck your clone. So I asked Andrea a question that just like, randomly popped into my head, which is like, hey, can there be souls that are split into more than two parts? Like triplet flames or quadruplet flames?

1:23:37 Kayla: Like how Voldemort had seven horcruxes. Chris: That's right. Exactly like that. Because, like, if a soul can be split into two, why not three or more? Or seven? Right. So this was her answer to that. Whether twin flames can split into more than two, it really depends on the teacher of the twin flames thing. So there's like different twin flames teachers, I guess, for different flavors of twin flames. Jeff and Celia say that it's very rare for someone to have more than one paired twin flame. And even if you do have more than one, only one of them is supposed to be the lover or the spouse of that person. The third one gets, like, left out in the cold. Kayla: What? What? Chris: So here's where it gets good. Kayla: That doesn't make any sense.

1:24:19 Chris: Here's where it gets good. Kayla: It's already good. Chris: She continues. Andrea continues. According to Jeff and Shalia, their child is allegedly their third twin flame, which means this kid is, according to them, sort of doomed to not have her own twin flame union relationship and even may be single for the majority of all of her life. Kayla: Wait, do they say this, or is this just implied by their philosophy? Chris: Both, I believe. Kayla: So does this kid exist, or is this a theoretical kid? Chris: Oh, right. So by child, I mean future child. They don't have a kid yet. Kayla: So how do they know it's their twin flame? Chris: But they claim that they know with absolute certainty that this kid will be their third twin flame.

1:24:59 Kayla: Why do they need that? That's weird. Chris: That it will be a girl and her name is Grace. Not will be grace is grace. And like, possibly will be some sort of messiah or something. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Jeff and Shaliah are currently taking the medical route for procreation so that they can select their child's gender. Since they've been preaching for so long that their future child is a girl. And obviously they are all knowing, so IVF is expensive. Yeah, but remember, they're getting, like, mad, fatty stacks of cash from exploiting people, so. Okay, that's the thing, Kayla. Like, they can't, like, have a boy, and then everybody would be like, what? You said that your future child is the girl, Grace, who's your twin flame? Third.

1:25:42 Kayla: Why box your. Why back yourself into a corner? Chris: I don't know. It's like a really expensive writing mistake. Why didn't you just not say that? Kayla: Why do you want your child to be doomed to being alone? And there's absolutely nothing wrong with singledom. I do not think that everyone needs to be partnered up. I think that that's. I think that if you are, like, the most important thing you do on this planet earth is find your twin flame, why would you then want to, like, doom your kid to not having that? Chris: I know. I know. It's really fucked up. So Andrea was, like, telling me. Excuse me. Andrea was telling me that basically, like, a lot of the. Of these, I think even current members of twin Flames universe, and certainly some of these ex members would, like, kind of gossip with each other and be like, what the hell are they going to do if they have a kid and it's a boy? Like, long before they were doing the IVF thing, and they were just, like, talking about their future child, people would be like, it's 50, right? What are they going to do? And turns out what they're going to do is spend a lot of money on IVF.

1:26:53 Chris: Okay, so we're basically the part where we're finished up talking about these interviewees, even though, like I said, there's more, but that was a whole lot of content. So any thoughts or questions or anything about either of these folks that you have at this point? Kayla: No. No, I'm just upset. Chris: It's pretty upsetting. Kayla: I don't like Jeff and Shalia. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: I don't like them. Yeah, I think they're bad. Chris: Yep. Kayla: I think they're a cult. Chris: Great analysis. Kayla: Feel bad for their future child. Chris: Oh, God. Kayla: I hope that the future child is able to escape and live a normal life. Chris: Yes. Kayla: I have a lot of hope for the child and for anyone involved in this. After watching Leah Remini's Scientology docu series, L. Ron Hubbard had, like, seven kids, and only one is a Scientologist.

1:27:47 Chris: Oh, that's awesome. Kayla: So I feel. Or it's like, is part of the. Chris: Church, and the other six are in twin flames universe. Kayla: But I have hope for their child to be able to live the life that they want outside of this cult. Chris: I hope so too. So one thing you asked me last week, we talked about this a little. Kayla: Bit before, but also, like, how much longer can you keep this up? Like, they're young. You know what I mean? Like, at a certain point, you gotta. Chris: Go, like, oh, yeah, I'm interested to see where this goes. Kayla: Like, it's got a. You can only scale so much. You can only. Chris: It's already exploding. Like, it's all. They already had to, like, force people into gender and sexuality reassignment because, like, their shit was a certain point.

1:28:32 Kayla: They're gonna be like, I'm done. And then do something else. Like, I don't believe that they're gonna be doing this for the rest of their lives. Chris: No, no. And then they clearly have, like, a desire to, like, move into. Because, like, that's probably the of the video game thing was explained to me, is they know that eventually, like, people are gonna stop doing these classes because it's, like, bunk. So we need to start. We need to make a video game about twin flames or whatever. Kayla: I'd play a twin flame video game. Chris: Yeah. And it was all, like, cross branded and everything. It was a whole thing. Anyway, so one thing you asked me last week and we wanted to try to answer was, where did these guys come from? Kayla: Yes, tell me. I want to know. Sorry I screamed. Chris: Well, I mean, you helped me look up some of this stuff. Kayla: Yeah, I did. I couldn't help. I couldn't stop myself. I was like, I need to Google. I will try to Google without spoiling, but I need to Google.

1:29:22 Chris: Well, no, I'm actually gonna ask you a question about one of them. So I'm gonna just a few little bullet points here for our listeners. There wasn't actually a lot. This is one of the bullet points. The first bullet point is actually that Jeff has done a really good job of, like, cleaning up his online footprint as the person he was before he was Jeff. Kayla: So he's good enough to hide from Kayla. Chris: He had changed his name to Jeff from Ender Ionathos, which. Kayla: Why would you change his fucking name? Chris: It's the exact opposite direction you'd want to go if you were starting a new age cult. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Like, you would think that, like, Jeff would change his name to Ender Ayanna. Kayla: Yeah.

1:30:02 Chris: To start a new age culture the other way. It's smaller. I know. It boggles my mind. Kayla: Well, I mean, I can tell you why. I mean, I don't know why he didn't change it from Ender ionithos to, like, bender Bionathos. Like, why he didn't just pick something else new Agey. But he definitely left Ender ionithos because there was such a huge online footprint for Ender ionathos. That didn't have to do with being Jeff and Shalia, right? Chris: Right. It didn't comport with the image of himself as a master Christ. Let's just say it was a little more salesy than that. So, yes, he did a really good job of cleaning up his online footprint as ender ionithos. For example, there's a defunct website out there called endersadventures.com, but were able to find some old posts of enders. Kayla, do you want to tell the listeners a little bit about the forum posts you found about, like, starting a relationship coaching service?

1:30:57 Kayla: You google Ender ionithos. I'm sorry, you need to do a better job. Like, you didn't clean your footprint up well enough. There's still an old Twitter, there's still an old. There's still an old LinkedIn, there's Pinterest, there's Reddit. Like, come on. But what I found the most interesting was his various posts on a forum called warriorforum.com, which is, like, a forum. I think it's like, kind of a big forum for, like, learning how to make money online. Like, people who want to, like, do coaching and sales and, like, direct ads. I don't know. People who want to, like, learn how to make money online, go to warrior forum. And he has a bunch of posts from about eight years ago, a lot of them in the, quote, unquote, personal development sphere.

1:31:52 Kayla: And, like, things like asking, like, how do I get my coaching business off the ground? Or, hey, I'm offering free coaching. Like, come, like, schedule a coaching session with me. Here's my blog, blah, blah. But the one that I loved went like this. Love relationships lift you to new heights of success or drag you down to subpar performance. I've been pondering this question for a long time now. Can a love relationship be helpful in achieving your success, or does all the extra time, effort and energy involved mean subpar success performance? Napoleon Hill, in the classic think and grow rich, talks about the potent power of transmuting sex, energy as an essential part of getting rich. What do you think? Has anyone here actually experienced what he's talking about?

1:32:35 Kayla: So that was eight years ago amongst a bunch of other posts of, like, how do I grow my business and become a coach and become very rich and famous and a coach? And then in there, it's like, is there a way to utilize love and romance as part of this? Or what do you guys think? Chris: Turns out there is. He answered his own question on that one, didn't he? Kayla: He did. Chris: We also found that prior to becoming Jeff, ender had, like, he'd earned a business degree. And looking at his Twitter is, like, honestly, kind of, like, sad. It seems like one of those, like, desperate to become an influencer types that you just see, like, hundreds or thousands of people trying to do on Twitter and Instagram.

1:33:16 Kayla: Every fucking person. Chris: Yeah. Just making all these, like, life coaching type tweets. Like, here's this Twitter bio. I help driven people who are down on their luck, find their inner fire, and live the lifestyles of their dreams in 30 days or less. That sounds like it just came out of the script for life coach guy on the Internet. Kayla: 30 days or less is, I know, quite the promise. Chris: Yeah, it's very aggressive. And then here's a tweet from September 2012. Quote, somebody emailed me today saying I should start a cult free punch at my jungle compound. End quote. Kayla: See? Okay. I know that one of your. One of the folks you interviewed said that he. That they are drinking their own Kool Aid. Yeah, I'm not fully convinced.

1:34:03 Chris: I'm not either. Kayla: I think Jeff, based on what I've. Chris: Seen of, like, pre tfu Jeff, right? I am not convinced. But. But, like, I think that Jeff transformed, too. Kayla: I think he's walking success. I think he's walking that line of, like, deep in his heart, he knows that this is fucking bullshit. And, like, it's like, his ego and, like, the superego is like this. I believe in this wholeheartedly, and I'm drinking my own Kool Aid. But then your actual you is like, this is fucking good. Chris: I mean, I cannot prove this at all. This is just my speculation, but I really believe that just about everyone that drinks their own Kool Aid does have a part of them that knows. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: There's a part of you that always knows.

1:34:44 Kayla: Yeah, I think so, too. Chris: No matter how much you lie to. Kayla: Yourself, I think that's part of why it can get so violent and aggressive, because it's like you're not just. You're not just having to shout down the haters and the naysayers. Like, you're having to shout down yourself, right? Chris: And you're the hardest person to convince. Cause you always know. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So anyway, I'm sure that was, like, totally a joke, but, oh, man. Considering what's transpired since that tweet, like, what a retroactively foreboding joke that was to leave up. I know, I know. Like, go delete that tweet, dude. Kayla: It's like, go delete the Twitter. I don't understand why the Twitter. Twitter's still up. Chris: I don't understand why. It's a little strange. Kayla: I don't understand why the LinkedIn is still up. Also, do you mention that when he was.

1:35:25 Chris: No, this is it for that. I'm done mentioning. Kayla: Well, I just want to mention that on his Twitter. No, on his LinkedIn. He worked for an MLM for a year in college. It stands through college pro, which is just like a window washing MLM. Chris: What? College pro? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: That's not what it sounds like. Kayla: I know. I think it's just like, we hire college kids to wash your windows or something like that. Chris: All right, so I have one more sort of topic thing that I want to talk about before we get to everyone's favorite criteria. Time. So I've hinted at this a little bit before in the episode, but people that experience this twin flame attraction thing tend to feel very passionately from what I've seen about their experience. Even ex members of TFU that think it was an abusive cult and have posted on Reddit about it are still wanting to, like, succeed on their own twin flame journey. They still want to have that harmonious union. And I've seen some say that, like, non believers just wouldn't understand because they've never experienced what they've experienced. It. It's real.

1:36:25 Kayla: Right? Chris: Well, maybe so. Right. In fact, we've said, I believe the experience that they're having. But as you know, I have a bit of a different take. I don't think that it's like a soul thing or a twin thing, flame, you know, broken soul becoming one. I don't think there's a supernatural element to it. Kayla: Right. Chris: People do experience falling head over heels for someone. Like, I've experienced it. I've experienced that with me. People experience having a crush or becoming obsessed or what have you. Kayla: With me. Everyone's obsessed with me. Chris: Yeah, that's right. Everybody thinks that Kayla is their twin flame. Kayla: Yep. Chris: And, yeah, it's happened to me, like I said, like, several times, I think. And it's not just.

1:37:08 Kayla: No, just me. Twin flame. Chris: Sorry. Oh, sorry. Yeah, it's only happened with you. It's definitely never happened before. I mean, like, I don't want to say, like, names on the show, but. Kayla: Name all the crushes you've ever had. Chris: Yeah, no, it's like, it's. I think it has happened to me more than once. Kayla: Right. Chris: And not just like a. Oh, man, I have a crush on so and so. I mean, like, I. I think I've carried some obsessions with me, like, for multiple years. Kayla: Oh, sure. Chris: Thinking it ever got to the point for me where it was, like, truly destructive. Like, I still am, like, friends with most of these people. Like, it never, like, went anywhere really bad. But I very much understand how it feels to have, like, an obsessive level crush on someone. And even me, with all of my rational skepticism, I've been super prone to, like, latching onto coincidences or dreams or whatever is like, oh, it's fate. This person is my destiny. And I've always had this sort of, like, rational skepticism. But even cutting through that, it's really easy based on, like, the way that we're raised in this society, to, like, think of, like, soul mates and fate and Disney princess and princes. It's, like, really easy to, like, think of, like, oh, man, this person is my destiny, right?

1:38:14 Kayla: Yep. Chris: And I don't think it was until, like I mentioned earlier, wasn't until I stopped seeing a potential girlfriend as, like, a quest object and started seeing. Seeing them as human beings, the way you put it, as other people are other people. Right. That I really had any success in a relationship, which unfortunately led me to marrying your ass. And now we have this podcast, so very negative outcome. Kayla: Yeah, you're saying that, like, oh, you didn't have any negative outcomes with your obsessions. Ding, ding, ding. Chris: Yeah, yeah. Obviously this is hugely destructive because now we're passing our cult on to all of our listeners. But yeah, no, like, I didn't have that level of success until I actually started seeing other people as other people.

1:38:54 Kayla: Right. Chris: But anyway, it's not just about my personal experience. Like, even though I believe in and under, in some way understand the experience, what I don't accept, of course, is the explanation of the mirror soul, as I mentioned. So I wanted to see if there was any, like, research on this topic. And as it turns out, there is. Ooh, Kayla, have you heard of a concept called limerence? Kayla: Like, there once was a man from. Chris: Nantucket, and that's how the poem goes. The end. So let's ask our friend Wikipedia for a definition on limerence. It's a relatively long quote, so the. Kayla: Shorthand for saying we're just gonna rip off Wikipedia right now and also for.

1:39:38 Chris: Our listeners to tune out. No, it's actually sorry, it's not that long. I shouldn't have said that. So limerence is a state of mind which results from a romantic and yes, I'm totally ripping off Wikipedia results from a romantic attraction to another person, and typically includes obsessive thoughts and fantasies and a desire to form or maintain relationship with the object of love and have one's feelings reciprocated. Limerence can also be defined as an involuntary state of intense romantic desire. Psychologist Dorothy Tenov coined the term limerence for her 1979 book Love and the experience of being in love to describe a concept that had grown out of her work in the mid sixties when she interviewed over 500 people on the topic. Limerence, which is not exclusively sexual, has been defined in terms of its potentially inspirational effects in relation to attachment theory.

1:40:27 Chris: It has been described as being an involuntary, potentially inspiring state of adoration and attachment to a limerent object, or an lo involving intrusive and obsessive thoughts, feelings, and behaviors from euphoria to despair, contingent on perceived emotional reciprocation. It goes on. Kayla: Oh, there, done that. Chris: It goes on. The concept of limerence provides a particular carving up of the semantic domain of love and represents an attempt at a scientific study of the nature of love. Limerence is considered as a cognitive and emotional state of being emotionally attached or even obsessed with another person, and is typically experienced involuntarily and characterized by a strong desire for reciprocation of one's feelings. A near obsessive form of romantic love, limerence involves intrusive thinking about the limerent object. Other characteristics include acute longing for reciprocation of rejection, unsettling shyness in the limerant object's presence. In cases of unrequited limerence, transient relief may be found by vividly imagining reciprocation from the limerant object. End quote.

1:41:33 Kayla: I hate being read like that. I hate being read to filth by fucking Wikipedia. So cute. Chris: The article goes on, and it's actually really extensive and detailed, so I obviously can't quote all of it, but it talks all about, like states of infatuation, new relationship energy, unreciprocated desire, fear, rejection, physical and psychological effects, and on. And it's considered a pathology. So it's like, it's considered like, if you're experiencing limerence, it's like, not necessarily like a normal, good state. Kayla: Right. No, I fucking. I like, literally, experiencing limerence was, like, really formative when, like, my eating disorder got the worst of the worst because it was like, for a while, it was like I'm doing my eating disorder just kind of floating along, and then, oh, limerence. And I remember consciously going, but if I just do the XYZ behaviors, the eating disorder behaviors. Yeah. If I just do this, that and the other, I will be so distracted by that, I will feel those shitty feelings so that I don't have the room and the energy to feel these shitty feelings.

1:42:46 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And these intense feelings. Chris: So that's a really powerful story, actually do this. Yeah. So that's. That's the thing, is, like, it's. These types of feelings can lead to that. It can lead to people joining potential cults. Kayla: Right. Oh, man. I used to eat the grossest soup. Limerick. Soup. Chris: Soup and limerence potatoes. So I highly recommend that you, our listeners, and Kayla, you go read this article. It's actually pretty good. Another great source I found on Limerence was actually an article in Huffington Post by a contributor by the name of David Sack, Md. Again, really interesting article. And doctor Sac was so kind in his article to list out a bunch of bullet points for us that describe limerence. Would you like to hear them?

1:43:27 Kayla: Yes, please. Just so I can feel shitty about myself again. That's my goal a decade and a half ago, so don't worry. Chris: I also feel like shit. Idealization of the other person's characteristics. Positive and negative. Kayla: Check. Chris: Uncontrollable and intrusive thoughts about the other person. Extreme shyness, stuttering, nervousness, and confusion around the other person. Now, these don't all have to check, obviously, for you to be in a limerant state, right? But it's just some commonalities. Fear of rejection and despair. Or thoughts of suicide if rejection occurs. A sense of euphoria in response to real or perceived signs of reciprocation. Kayla: Oh, God.

1:44:07 Chris: Fantasizing about. Searching obsessively for signs of reciprocation. Reading, quote, unquote, reading into things. Being reminded of the person and everything around you. Replaying in your mind every encounter with the other person in great detail. Kayla: Okay, but some of this is also just like being in love. Chris: Sure. Absolutely. Kayla: Cause, like, I wasn't limerent with you, but once I. Like, once you got your shit together. Chris: Weren't you, though? Kayla: Once you. Okay, once you got your shit together. And I was like, oh, my God, I love you, then it was like. Chris: My shit was together. Kayla: Full speed ahead. I'm still like this with you. Chris: When are you getting your shit together? Kayla: I don't have my shit together. When does that happen? Once you realized I was a human being. Then I went, oh, fuck, I love you so much, I'm obsessed.

1:44:57 Chris: So maybe you are limerent with me. I mean, that's possible. The last few bullets are maintaining romantic intensity through adversity. Endlessly analyzing every word and gesture to determine their possible meaning. Arranging your schedule to maximize possible encounters with the other person and experiencing physical symptoms such as trembling, flushing, weakness, or heart palpitations around the other person, which that one doesn't sound. That one sounds like butterflies in your stomach. Kayla: Do you remember how I used to, like, this is obviously were together, but, like, you'd be like, I'm gonna go to the grocery store after work. And I'd be like, okay, great. And then sometimes I would just show up at the grocery store just to see you. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: We lived together and were gonna go to the home together in 2 seconds.

1:45:39 Chris: You are a freak. Kayla: But I would just be like, I'm here. Chris: Okay, so you are unhealthily obsessed with me. Like, I think we've established that. But does any of this stuff sound familiar? Kayla: It sounds like, oh, this is your twin flame. If you. These just means it's your twin flame, your soulmate. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: You're supposed to be with this person. Chris: All of these rang super true from like, all the stuff that I looked up about, researched about twin flames, stuff I was told from my inner interviewees, stuff I saw on YouTube videos. It just seems like that this is like a state that people can get in and it's. Yeah, you know, I don't want to, like, minimize it, but. Kayla: Oh, my God. Chris: But it's not only some people can do this. Like, people can get into this state that aren't necessarily, like, you don't have to be, like, into spiritual, new age supernatural stuff to have this happen to you.

1:46:26 Kayla: So if I was in a limerant state and somebody was like, hey, this is great and good and also just pay me some money and we can probably, like, make this work out. Oh, my God. Chris: You know that it's actually your twin soul. Yeah. Right. It would be a very powerful, compelling thing. Kayla: Yeah. Especially when you, like, are experiencing this and you do. You. You aren't necessarily yourself. You're definitely not your most, like, logical, rational self. And you're not desperate, but you're, like, very willing to believe things. Chris: Yeah. So again, the reason I wanted to look into that was because, yeah, I'd read about all these experiences people were having and attributing to twin flames, and I thought, what's at the bottom of all this? What's a materialist, scientific explanation for this? Hell, I think I learned some stuff about myself as well. Like we just have mentioned a bunch of times. I'm pretty sure I've had limerent objects in my past based on these descriptions. And again, not to minimize what the experiences are, far from it. I hope that if you are a listener that's experienced this, then having this alternative explanation, an alternative to twin flames, gives you some knowledge and power over this aspect of yourself. It's helpful to know that there is a name for the phenomenon.

1:47:42 Kayla: Right? Chris: As they say, you name it, you tame it. Kayla: And if you are a limerant object from my past, fuck you. You could have had all this. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: You could have had a podcast. Chris: If you're listening, Alana. So it is finally time, but to prep us for the criteria and judgment, because I know you're really on the fence about this one. Kayla: I don't think we need to do the criteria. Chris: I have two quotes that I want to share with you to see if it'll help you kind of, like, decide one way or the other. Okay, so first up, here's a quote from Andrea that she left me with when I asked if there's anything that she just, like, wanted to add at the end of our interview. So she said, quote, my opinion is this group is in its baby stages of being a larger cult. I've done research into the bite model, so if you recall, that's the, like, Steve Hassan thing. I'm not sure if we've mentioned it on the show before.

1:48:38 Kayla: We did with. When we talked to recovering, Hunbotan talked about it. Chris: Right. So the bite model is this guy, Steve Hassan, who is a former member of the Moonies cult, has this. This model. So byte stands for behavior control, information control, thought control, emotional control. Kayla: Yes. Chris: So it's like the different ways that a cult organization can control you. So again, Andrea said, I've done research into the byte model, and it seems like it applies to this group. It reminds me of the Netflix shows, wild. Wild country and holy hell. There's another show that we need to watch. Kayla: What's that? Chris: It's called holy hell. She did it. It's another cult show on Netflix. Anyway, she continued, it's in the baby stages of being a cult. They're very cult like, and I'm glad people are starting to be aware before it gets out of control like Jonestown or Waco. End quote.

1:49:29 Kayla: This definitely has a it could get there. It could get there. Chris: And now here's a second quote. This is a little bit longer and I've taken it from a site called thefaiththatgrows.com and the blog post is entitled to all those who believe twin flames universe is a cult. I've seen my very own name and personal this is like halfway through the article, I've seen my very own name and personal story used as an example as to why TFU is a cult and how sad I must be, how brainwashed and manipulated. And hey, if you were to look at it from the outside, you might have a case to build for yourself. Since finding this community, I don't speak with any of the friends I used to. I have changed my phone number and removed all prior connections from social media.

1:50:15 Chris: I literally don't speak to anyone outside of the TFU community unless it's like a bank teller or a cashier. I even had two of my very closest friends. Both accuse me of losing myself completely to this insane cult. And you know what I did? I immediately cut them out of my life. I don't socialize or go to events or out and about or anything unless God calls me to go. And I always go alone. To anyone who used to know me, it would seem as though I completely fell off the face of the earth. You see? I did. It's called ascension, folks, and it's happening. It's real. It's inescapable and unavoidable. What myself and the other leaders in the TFU community are doing is leading the way for heaven to be grounded on earth, the new capital of creation.

1:50:57 Chris: The separation experiment is over and done with. And guess what that means. A new order is in order. It's time for love to reign. It's time for the golden age. We will leave no stone unturned and every lie will be dissolved. God sent Jeff and Shaliah to lead the way, and they are damn good at their job. Aligning with them means aligning with your true self, your highest destiny, God, your twin flame, your life purpose, your soul family, and your perfect abundance. To achieve all of this, we must undergo a healing process that is as compassionate as it is intense and rigorous and mandatory. No one gets to get around this, but you can most certainly delay it. If you want to prepare to become incredibly uncomfortable and absolutely miserable, you will be brought to your knees and you will surrender.

1:51:38 Chris: I am able to say this with such authority, because of my time spent doing this work. And from what I have witnessed, what I have been taught, and what I know in my own very soul and heart, I've known from a very young age. This is what I came here to do. And here it was. God never breaks his promises, end quote. Kayla: Cult called. Chris: So that was actually one of the first things I read, really, when I started doing this research, it was like, I got. I got the email from the listener, and I was like, oh, yeah, let's look into this thing. And that was, like, one of the first things there because I searched, you know, twin flames universe. Like, that's, like, literally the way I always start the topics for this show is I always say, like, you know, type in the group in Google and the word call. Yeah, right. Just to see what comes up. And this is, like, one of the first articles that comes up because it's.

1:52:29 Kayla: What is the art? What is this? Chris: What is this? It's like some person's personal blog. I mean, her name is in the blog, but it's, like, Deanna or something. Okay, but it's just her personal blog. It's called the faith that grows. And she has a blog post that's called to all those who believe twin flame universe is a cult. That was, like, one of the first things that I read. And I read that and I was just like, oh, my God. Kayla: That doesn't make ascension seem good. Chris: Holy shit. I mean, I'm all for people having their own experiences stuff, but she doesn't sound like this isn't a good spot. No, it sounds scary. I'm scared, Kayla. Kayla: I don't like it. Chris: Help. Kayla: I'm scared. Yeah. Are we in the evaluatory period now?

1:53:11 Chris: Yeah, but, like, her blog post is actually even longer than that, and it doesn't get any less crazy. Kayla: Yeah, no, I would not. I would expect nothing less. What's that? Chris: It's the criteria. Kayla: You don't need this shit, Kayla. Chris: It's our shtick. We have to do it. Kayla: Expected harm. Hi. Cult. Is it niche within a society? Yes. Cult. Anti factuality. Closed, logical system up the fucking wazoo. Cult of life consumed. Well, this bitch is like, I don't do shit but talk to these people. Cult. Ritual. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Cult. Charismatic leader. I think we all know the answer to that one. Cult. Cult. Cult. It's a cult. Sorry.

1:53:52 Chris: Wow. A lot of nuance in that analysis there. Kayla: We can get into it. I'm just saying. Chris: No, I mean, I know there's, like. I mean, there's not a lot to cover at this point. Kayla: It's a cult. Chris: It's a super cult. Kayla: It's a supra cult. Chris: It got a six facta on the Chris and Kayla Cult are just weird scale. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: All right, well, let's put this way. Kayla: Sorry. Chris: And we're done. Kayla: I don't think we need to get nuanced with this. I think you've already gotten the nuance. Chris: Listen, if I wanted nuance, I wouldn't have read you that last statement. Yeah, the faiththatgrows.com. Kayla: Yeah, it's a call.

1:54:34 Chris: Yeah. And there's so much stuff I'm leaving out to, like, stuff that I was told. I mean, you, I showed you a little bit of the, like, scrolled through some of the documentation that I was sent. I mean, just dreams of information. There's Reddit Posts out there. There's like a whole, even in the Vice Article you mentioned, there's, like, this Reddit page of a Former Member that was like, here's how I got out. And it's like, kind of become this landing page now for other people leaving the group and posting about it. It's like its own Little Sub Community now there, I mean, there's other posts and other blogs about, like, I got out and it's a cult, and it's really bad. Kayla: Right. Chris: Just, there's so much out there about this right now. It's crazy. And I look forward to the Vanity Fair Article. Kayla: Oh, my God. Alice Hines, please Hurry.

1:55:15 Chris: I reached out to her because I was like, come on to our show. Kayla: Oh, she's too important for us. Chris: Oh, yeah, I know. But hopefully she's gotten through the, what is this? Like, we're, like, on our fifth hour talking about this. Hopefully she's gotten to this point. Alice, if you're listening to our show, email us@culturejustweirdmail.com. And, you know, maybe we'll let you be on. Yeah, maybe. Okay. Maybe. Because we're sort of a big deal. Kayla: Do you think Jeff's gonna listen? Chris: I hope so. Kayla: I'm scared, dude. Chris: This, this has been, this topic has been very taxing. Kayla: Yeah, I understand. Chris: Like, this topic between the, like, having to protect identities, the fact that they're, like, a litigious group of folks wanting the mind. Yeah, the mind fucking, the gaslighting and not knowing who to believe, and getting different stories, some stories over here and this story over here.

1:56:05 Kayla: And Jeff specifically addressing, like, the rumors that I'm a cult leader. Chris: Yeah. Like, he's just. I mean, I'm pretty convinced that he is at this point. And, yeah, he certainly does a lot of very intense gaslighting of his community to be like, this is why I'm not a cult in these different ways. It's so silly. Kayla: I love that last quote you write is so damning. Because it's somebody who is supporting the group and yet still saying it's a cult. Chris: Yeah. I thought in halfway through you were gonna be like, is this person being sarcastic? Because even for a bit, I couldn't tell. And I was like, no, this is sincere. Oh, that makes it, like, five times as scary.

1:56:49 Kayla: Yeah. So twin flames universe. It is a cult. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: If you're experiencing limerence, don't go to them. Chris: Don't do that. Kayla: Don't do that. Chris: Don't fuck your clone. Kayla: Find a therapist, and just know that the process might be. Might take a little longer than anyone would like. Chris: And limerence doesn't necessarily mean that you necess. You need to get therapy. But. Kayla: No, but if it's, like, affecting your life to the point where you're thinking of joining a cult. Chris: Yeah. If you are having trouble living your life, if you are having trouble going about your day to day, doing your job, hanging out with. Whatever. Kayla: I used to not be able to sleep. I used to not be able to, like.

1:57:29 Chris: So you sound like you needed help, bitch. Kayla: You too. Chris: I know. Whatever. Kayla: What was your worst limerence? Chris: Oh, I don't know. No, I don't want to say it. Cause, like. Kayla: No, no. Okay, tell me later. Chris: I. So we're done. Anything else you want to say before we sign off? This has been a long episode. A long two episodes. Kayla: Thanks for doing all this work and bringing this to my attention. This is the kind of shit that I'm fascinated by. Chris: Yeah. And I can finally relax until we get, like, a cease and desist email from twin Flames universe. Bring it probably won't cease and desist.

1:58:10 Kayla: I am excited for them to implode, which I believe they will at some point. Seems like a goes. Everybody check out the Leah Remini Scientology in the aftermath docu series. It. Chris: Kayla's been watching. Kayla: Good. It is definitely a cult. Yeah, just like this. Chris: Well, I also want to say another thank you to the two people that I interviewed and the person for reaching out to me. That's our listener. Thank you so much. And thank you to Andrea. Go check out her YouTube channel. It's called Dragon Heart. She talks all about twin flame universe and different things that she experienced and sort of, like, she basically just talks about her experiences with the group, with the cult. We can call it a cult now that we've done our judgment. So. All right. Thank you for going with me on that journey. Thanks for taking me, you and all of our listeners who are all of our twin flames.

1:59:02 Kayla: We are twin flames. Chris: We're like a 600 person soul. It's 600 shards of a soul. Kayla: There you go. Chris: All one culture, just weird soul. Kayla: Only you and I can be in love, and the rest of them are doomed to. Chris: That's right. You're all doomed to be alone. Sorry. Kayla: Sorry, guys. Chris: Thanks for listening to the show, though. Kayla: Yeah. You'll never be alone when you have episodes of culture. Just weird new years. We're here for you. Chris: And with that, are you gonna go? We are not in the same. We do not have you go. You're always supposed to go, fine. This is Chris, this is Kayla, and this is Ben. Kayla: Cult are just weird.