0:25 Kayla: That means we're recording. Chris: Okay. You should do it after, too. So we'll say after what? This is Chris prayer. No, no, it's. This is Chris. No, you say, this is Kayla. Have you not done this before? Kayla: I've never done this before. Go again. Chris: This is Chris, this is Kayla, and this is cult or just weird. There we go. That's where the little chime comes in. And see, now what we do is I learned recently those are called mnemonic devices or mnemonic what is chimes or something? I don't know. It's like the NBC chime or, like, the intel. Don't. Don't. Like, you always know. You always associate that. Like, if you ever heard the intel chime, like, totally. You could be in the middle of the ocean. You hear that and you're like, oh, that's intel, right?

1:13 Kayla: It's like there's an entire plot point in Jurassic park three of this. Chris: I don't know that. I think I missed that one. Kayla: We need to stop recording, and we need to go watch it right now. It's the best. Chris: Jp three. Seriously? Kayla: Second of all of the Jurassic parks, it is the second best. Chris: Do you have, like, an unstated goal that you want to mention? Jurassic park? Some Jurassic park movie in all of these? Kayla: I'll state the goal. I want to be able to talk about Jurassic park as often as possible, including on every episode of any podcast I ever appear on. Also, we should go watch Jurassic park three after this, and then you'll understand. Chris: Great. Kayla: How what you just said is very relevant to the plot of that film. Chris: Philem film. Well, I. Okay. I totally can wait for that.

1:57 Kayla: It just come, like, so good. William H. Macy's in it. Ta Leone's in it. Chris: All right. Kayla: Sam Neill's in it. Laura Dern's in it. Chris: Oh, I didn't see that one. Kayla: It's so. It's the one with the pterodactyls. So he's a little kid. It's great. There's a divorce drama happening. Not ringing a bell. Chris: Anyway, yeah. Welcome to the show. Kayla: Welcome to culture. Just weird. You already said that. Chris: Yeah, we did. But I just wanted to say it again because I like repeating things, and this week, I picked a bit of a lighter topic. Kayla: Yeah. If you're joining us after our first ever two parter on the illustrious teal swan. And it was a little heavy, that topic.

2:40 Chris: Yeah, yeah. Kayla: It made me literally, I changed every single topic that I had in my lineup after that because of the heaviness and the, like, the weightiness and the depth and the girth of that episode. Chris: It was a very girthy episode. Kayla: It was a girthy episode. I needed to change what I did after. And actually, that brings me to something that I have forgotten to do for the last six episodes. I have yet to say thank you to our producer, Alyssa, who is my co host on my other podcast and a very dear friend who basically has made sure that our topics mesh.

3:20 Chris: But mostly she's a ruthless producer, though. Kayla: I mean, she's ruthless, yes. Chris: But, you know, if you need to. If you need your podcast to get things done, I mean, get Alyssa on board. She's your go to right there. Kayla: Thank you, Alyssa, for keeping us in line and for making sure our topics don't suck. Chris: Yeah. Speaking of which, I probably should have checked this with you ahead of time, producer. If you're listening to this right now. Kayla: Yeah, you're in trouble. Chris: I also switched my topic, which was sort of based on last week's being so heavy, but also no spoilers or anything, but I am, like, the upcoming few topics I have after this one have some interesting things afoot, so. Yeah, so it's actually none of mine do. I needed the time anyway.

4:09 Kayla: Gotcha. Okay, so. God damn it. Fucking raising the bar. That means I'm gonna have to do something. Chris: Raising that bar. Don't worry. It's not raising it that much. Kayla: You don't understand. For the last year and a half of my life, I have done a podcast where I can do my quote unquote research an hour before we record. And now you have thrust me into this world where I need to, like, do interviews and, like, reach out to people and, like, have supplemental material. Chris: Look, I hate doing this podcast too, but now we're doing it because now we have throngs of devoted fans. Kayla: Ugh. God dammit. Chris: And now we have to keep doing it. So sit here and fucking suffer with me for the next rest of our lives. Hopefully not 2 hours. I don't know how long this one's gonna be, actually. Oh, you're gonna try to get through it? Yeah, I'm gonna try to. I'm gonna try to power through it. No. So actually it's. Well, if we're getting into it.

5:00 Kayla: Are we getting into it? Do you have any business? Chris: No. Particularly pressing business other than this content? No. Kayla: Okay, good. Let's do this. Yeah, I'm excited. Chris: I am too. Yeah. So like I said, little bit lighter this week. Certainly. Interesting. I thought it was going to be like, okay. A little bit of, actually, I wasn't even sure I'd be able to get a full episode out of it. And then as you do, you look into this stuff, and then you're like, oh, snap. Oh, there's. There's a lot of information that I had no idea. Kayla: Right. Chris: So, first off, I would like to cite my sources here because I think that's a good thing to do that we've done in the previous few episodes. Unfortunately for this one, I was not able to secure an interview or involve myself with the group in any way like I was able to do with Star Citizen.

5:50 Kayla: That's okay. Chris: So mostly I'm just going to be lazily aggregating information from a whole bunch of secondary sources. Kayla: That's what about 99% of podcasts are. So you're good. Chris: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's what the Internet is, right? I mean, it's all aggregators. That's a buzzword. Kayla: There's nothing new on the Internet. It's just everybody is just like, what is the word? Chris: Aggregating? Kayla: No, a different word for aggregating. Chris: Stealing. Kayla: Sure. Everyone's just stealing content from one platform to another platform, and it's just going around and around in a small packaging circle, jerking. Something you see on Tumblr has been screenshotted from something you saw on Twitter, which was screenshot from something you saw on Reddit, which is screenshot from something you saw on Tumblr, so. Chris: Right. Wow.

6:31 Kayla: So that's our podcast. Chris: That's dire. Anyway, so we are very much a part of that whole cycle. And I should have just had you, like in that circle thing you just were talking about. Kayla: Name your sources. Chris: I should just had you name the sources, but instead I'm gonna do it. So. Wikipedia. Dur, obviously. I also read an article written by what appeared to be a San Jose State University student. It was like on a geocities looking website, though. What? Pretty weird. I don't know. I didn't use that much of that one. Anyway, an article from good old slate. An article from Smithsonian magazine. Very fancy. Our good friends atlas Obscura. They're great. I also read a transcript of a podcast episode from 2010. What? A podcast called Skeptoid. And I'm not sure if they're still publishing or not, but it was pretty cool. Okay, an article from Scientific American from 50 years ago.

7:32 Kayla: I hate this. Chris: And an article written for Topic magazine, who I had never heard of before, but they actually proved to be extremely valuable. Kayla: Wait, the magazine is called Topic? Chris: Topic, or it's just topic.com. I don't know. Kayla: That's literally like. Like prop magazine. What's the name of a magazine we can have that's clearable and doesn't really say what it's about? Topic, topic. Chris: What's the topic? Topic regarding this scientific american article from 50 years ago thing. So they actually. That's actually something they do in every issue, is they have a page that they call like 500, 5000 or something. I forget what it's called exactly, but it's what they do is they actually take. Because they've been in print for so freaking long, they go into their own archives and they pick an article from five years ago, 50 years ago and 100 years ago, and they republish it.

8:26 Kayla: So they aggregate themselves. Chris: They aggregate themselves? Yeah. And usually it's pretty short, but this one was long. This was like a legit, full length article from 50 years ago. Kayla: Okay, what is this topic I need to know? Chris: You will find out. Kayla: Oh, God. Chris: So today the format will be slightly different. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Rather than just one cult, this is the tale of two cults. Kayla: I don't know if that's allowed. Chris: Well, I did it. Kayla: Ooh, Alyssa's gonna yell at you. Chris: I know. That's okay. So sorry, producer. Please, please don't producer, fire me. Allow me to set the table. Then you can tell me if you think you know which organizations I'm talking about. The first group is an established part of modern society. It provides social glue to the community or communities in which it exists, including all of the trappings, comradeship, comfort, wisdom, culture. Originally born with what you could call a revolutionary figure, it has since evolved into a stable group with a hierarchy in everything. It provides a unifying purpose to its members and includes holidays. And it's enough a part of this society that it is even involved in the government.

9:37 Kayla: It's either McDonald's or the YMCA. Chris: It has an established mythology that, while supernatural, is more or less self consistent. So. Okay, so your ideas are YMCA or McDonald's? Yeah, I mean, you know what? It sounds like you kind of can. I mean, revolutionary figure. It started with part of modern society. Kayla: You're gonna make me look real dumb. Chris: No, I'm not. I'm not. Well, let's go into the second doing. Kayla: The country. The country of the United States of America. Chris: No, I mean, to me, that sounds an awful lot like Christianity, doesn't it? But now you obviously know that's like, the trick is that it's not gonna be that, right?

10:18 Kayla: It's McDonald's. Or the YMCA. Chris: Well, let's go on to the second group. So the second group is quite superstitious, and it began with a figure about whom very little is known outside of the religious literature about him. And some folks who study this stuff believe that he may not even have existed. Rituals are held in which thanks is given to this figure, a savior, and his return is prophesied, which also heralds the end times and rewards the faithful that, you know, believed in him that whole time. Kayla: Right. Chris: These rituals, though, are really where the superstition kicks in. Ceremonies are held, and it is believed that these ritual ceremonies will bring rewards to the adherents. And in fact, this group is pretty well known for the rituals that they perform. Any ideas for number two?

11:01 Kayla: Is it McDonald's versus the YMCA? I have no. I honestly have no idea. I'm a couple healthy pours of wine in. I don't know. Chris: Yeah, I love how you're like, just like drinking wine while we're at work here. Kayla: I don't get paid, so it's not work. Chris: It looks like you're getting paid in wine to me. Kayla: That's true. Can I get any other hints? Chris: Well, I didn't write any other hints down, so. Kayla: No, just tell me hints. Chris: I can't improv like that. That's too much. Kayla: All right, so the first one has ritual and a charismatic leader, and the second one has ritual and a charismatic leader. That's literally. Chris: The first one is like, well established modern society. The second one is superstitious and kind of crazy. And chiropractics.

11:46 Kayla: I don't know. Chiropractics versus medical establishment. Chris: Well, as we said a minute ago, like, the idea is that I'm like, oh, right. Is it a. How do I sound? So like Christianity, right? Kayla: You're talking about Jesus and you're talking about. Chris: Right, so. Haha. Trick. Surprise, surprise. It's not actually that. Kayla: I'm sorry, did I ruin your thing? Chris: No, not at all. Kayla: Did you say McDonald? Chris: You got it? It was McDonald's. No, if you had gotten it, I would have told you, but. So for group number two, right, remember I mentioned that the group is well known for their rituals? Kayla: Yes. Chris: So if I'm a little more specific about these rituals, you might start to guess what I'm talking about. Kayla: Do it. Go. Chris: First of all, I guess these are the hints you just asked for. So maybe I did.

12:29 Kayla: Right, now give me some hints. Chris: First of all, there are actually many of these groups, or at least there were. Now there are only a few, but there used to be many that sprung up throughout the islands of the Pacific Ocean just before and after World War. Kayla: Two, bro, I have no idea. Chris: The rituals involve mimicking the trappings of western technology, particularly military technology, and also mimicking western ceremonies. The ritual performers believe that by building faux headsets and faux landing strips and making fake rifles and raising american flags in a ceremony where they march in formation, they will be rewarded with material wealth. Kayla: Are these, like, historical reenactors?

13:12 Chris: No. In fact, they are today's topic. Cargo cults. Kayla: Oh, my God. Cargo cults are on my list. Chris: All right, this is. Pause. Kayla: No cargo. Not one that I submitted for approval from Alyssa. But, like, on my initial list. Yeah, totally had cargo cults on there. Chris: Like the word document? Kayla: No, on my short list. Chris: Oh, on the things you wanted to submit to Alyssa? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Oh, I'm sorry. Kayla: No, that's fine. Now I don't have to fucking research about it. Oh, my God. I'm so excited. Chris: Yes. So that's group two. Don't worry. I will tell you who group one is in a little bit when we use it as a measuring stick against group number two.

13:54 Kayla: Oh, my God. I am so excited you're doing this one. Chris: Yeah, me too. It's actually really fascinating. It really is. So for now, though, I'm going to tell you a little bit more about cargo cults. Now, I know I'm saying cults with an s, but I also said I was talking about a specific group in my tale of two cults. So let me explain that. As I just mentioned, during the period just before and after, and of course, during the second World War, many such cargo cults popped up all across the Pacific islands, essentially anywhere that culture shock occurred between island communities with little in the way of technology and either western or japanese occupation. And in the future, I'm probably just going to say western occupation and lump japanese occupation in with that. Because by the time of World War two, the japanese style imperial colonialism had a lot in common with european colonialism.

14:42 Kayla: Could you just say colonial occupation? Chris: I could. But it's not just that. It's also the style. There's been a lot of. Colonialism has been a part of history throughout. Throughout human history. Right. But there's a very particular, like, flavor that european colonialism carries with it. Kayla: Right. Chris: And the japanese style colonialism was very similar to that during the, like, world War two era. Kayla: Good to know. Chris: So, yeah. So these. These westerners, these visitors and administrators and colonialists brought with them vast amounts of material wealth, only possible with a gigantic modern economy. So infrastructure manufacturing technology, all that stuff. Also, many of these island societies had a few things that were true about them. First, they were far too small and too isolated to have developed a gigantic economy that we just talked about. And secondly, many of them had a societal structure that was actually built around being able to provide material well being to one another. According to my research, in many South Pacific cultures, the more indebted someone was to you, the more powerful you were.

15:53 Chris: So when a seemingly never ending stream of material wealth is being injected into your tiny Pacific island, suddenly even the most powerful chieftain feels completely powerless, needing to grasp for that power and agency and unable to even conceive of how ordinary humans could, with their two hands, possibly produce such massive material wealth. Many of these island societies attempted to just match the rituals that the westerners performed, assuming that correlation implied causality, as long as they had the airstrips and the, you know, the marches and whatever that. Okay, that means that we can have that wealth, too, right? Kayla: So basically what you're saying is that people who had not been exposed to, quote, unquote, western technology saw western technology in action in form of, like, planes flying in with equipment and people with ships bringing in, and then, like, military stuff happening. And instead of going. Going. One follows the other.

16:48 Chris: It was like, without, under. Like, all they would. Basically, what they would do is they would see, like, okay, this person. Like, I'm actually. This is something I didn't have in my notes, but I'm glad you brought that up, because they would see, like, I'm working super hard, and all I can produce is, like, you know, a few potatoes or what, you know, whatever. I don't know what they actually farm out there. It's definitely not potatoes. I'm sorry. I'm probably racist, but, you know, they're not producing that much with their own two hands. Cause there's only so much you can do, right? And then, you know, Bob over there, who's in his, you know, radar tower. Kayla: Because Bob from the states. Chris: Bob from United States, who's, you know, a navy airman. He just writes something on a little piece of paper, does almost no work, and then, like, massive. More than you've ever seen, material wealth just comes in from that, right? And so they say, okay, well, obviously, like, we're doing it wrong, so let's do it that way.

17:37 Kayla: Right, right. Chris: And it wasn't just, we want more wealth. It was also, I feel, disempowered. Okay, right. So, right. So in some form of. This happened many times throughout the Pacific islands during the mid 20th century, swinging all the way back to that initial tale of two cults, though, my research actually led me down the path of what appeared to me the most widely documented cargo cult, the cult of John frumental. So let me recite the tale of two cargo cults from earlier, just one more time here to catch us up. The second group is quite. It began with a figure about whom very little is known outside of the religious literature about him. And some folks who study this stuff believe he may not even have existed.

18:26 Chris: Rituals are held in which thanks is given to this figure, who is a savior, and his return is prophesied, which also heralds the end times and rewards for the faithful. These rituals are really where the superstition kicks in. Ceremonies are held, and it is believed that these ritual ceremonies will bring rewards to the adherence. And in fact, this group is pretty well known for the rituals they perform. So, specifically talking about the john from cult there. Kayla: Right. Chris: So that's why I said, like, okay, we're talking about one thing, but there's a bunch of them. So there's a bunch of them. But we're honing in on this one as an example because there's the most literature about it. Kayla: Okay. Chris: So I talked a little bit about the rituals performed by cargo cults, and the John Fromm cult is no exception. Every year on February 15. So happy birthday to you oh, yeah.

19:11 Kayla: Aw, thanks. Chris: Which is John from day. Adherents dress in american military garb. They carry around fake rifles made of bamboo and perform military ceremonies, including a raising of the american flag. This is accompanied by a larger celebration involving speeches, dancing, and feasting. But it's the cargo rituals for which they are most well known. What about Jon Frum himself? Kayla: Yeah, who's Jon Frum? Explain to me who Jon Frum is. Chris: Well, as I mentioned, and yes, I highlighted this on purpose to draw those Christ like parallels. He is considered a savior figure up to and including a prophesied return sometime in the future.

19:54 Kayla: That's okay. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: That's incredible. Chris: Members of this quote unquote cult believe in a strange amalgamation about John. He is divine and has supernatural powers, but he is also an american human. The divine human dichotomy. Again, also very similar to Jesus. Kayla: Right, that is true. Chris: As an American, he lives in America, but he is also said to reside in the volcano on the island where he is worshipped. Kayla: Okay, this dude sounds fucking cool. Chris: Yeah, he's a baller, John. It's really weird. Kayla: No, I'm into him. Chris: Oh, yeah. You'll be even more into him. Just wait.

20:34 Kayla: Do you got pics? Chris: No one has pics of Jon Frum, I'm sorry to say. Kayla: That makes him that much more attractive. Chris: Yeah, I know. Believers say that he will bring western goods in the form of cargo, and they themselves, the believers actually use the word cargo, so they've picked up a lot of, like, english words into their own language just from the time that the Americans were there. Kayla: Do you have any idea, like, specifics about the peoples that you're talking about? Like, do you know what island we're talking about? What group we're talking about? Chris: Oh, to use our favorite term on this podcast. We'll get to it. Kayla: Okay. Okay. I just wanted to make sure weren't being totally. Just white people. Racist. Being like. Yeah, those people over there.

21:15 Chris: Oh, my God, Kayla. Kayla: Yeah. I called you racist. Cause we are. Cause we're white. Chris: Right. So I'm allowed to be racist. Kayla: No, you're not allowed. Chris: The end. Kayla: You're not allowed. Chris: Are we cutting this whole thing about our own racism? Kayla: I just wanted to make sure in case it was an oversight. Chris: Thank you. Where was I? Oh, yeah. And they themselves actually use the word cargo. So it's like, they've picked up a lot of english words from when Americans were occupying, or I guess the Americans weren't occupying. They were. Kayla: They were there. Chris: They were there, like, passing through with all of our military stuff, but they weren't, like, colonial, like, colonizing it anyway. But they also believe that he supports local customs.

21:58 Kayla: Okay. Chris: Some say he was a black american soldier. Others say he was white. It is a little tough to wrap your head around exactly who he is or was because there are a lot of these confusing and contradictory stories about him. There just seem to be a lot of different stories about his origin. Okay, so where did his Persona come from? Oh, get it from. Gross. Kayla: Just keep going. Chris: Well, the first theory is easy. You might have kind of gotten it just from the name. I'm John from America. John from America got shortened and transformed into John from. Kayla: Oh, that's. I like that. Chris: But as I'll get into in a second here.

22:38 Kayla: How do you spell from. Chris: That is not the only theory, or even maybe the most likely one. How do you spell from most places? So I think there's no, like, this is how you spell it because it's not an english word. Kayla: Okay. Chris: And I saw it spelled different ways, but by far the most common way in all of the english language articles that I read was f r u. Kayla: M. That's what I would have expected. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: Okay. All right, so we've got something. We've got something to delve into here with Mister frum. Chris: Yeah. So let's talk about that measuring stick that was the cult of John Frum. Now let's compare and contrast and I will jump all the way back to the tale of two cults again, only this time I'll repeat the description from the first group. The first group is an established part of modern society. It provides social glue to the community or communities in which it exists, including all the trappings, comradeship, comfort, wisdom, culture. Originally born with what you would call a revolutionary figure, it has since evolved into a stable group with a hierarchy and everything. It provides a unifying purpose to its members and includes holidays. It is enough a part of the society that is involved in the government. It has an established mythology that, while supernatural, is more or less self consistent.

23:51 Kayla: Are you talking about. Chris: So which religion do you think I'm going to be using here to draw comparisons? Kayla: I don't know, but are you talking about capitalism? That was capitalism. Chris: Actually, sort of. Kayla: Is capitalism a cargo cult? Chris: Okay, now you're getting ahead of me. Kayla: Oh my God. Go get us there. Chris: So I was lying. The two cults are one in the same. Kayla: Oh. What? Whoa. Chris: Crazy. I know. Kayla: Like, I didn't know. Chris: 90% of our listeners right now are like, oh my God, that was so obvious. You're such a gimmick. Kayla: Oh, I had no idea. I thought it was McDonald's and the YMCA.

24:33 Chris: No, I'm close though. You're close? Like you're only about 7000 miles off. Yeah, but before I talk about the specifics of that description, the thing I just read and why I tried to do that little trickery there, let's talk a little bit about the socio cultural context under which we discover, study and talk about cargo cults. I can't really say it better than this quote from topic.com. Quote s who is John from article? So I will read it verbatim. Kayla: That's fine. That's 99% of what I do on my other podcast. Chris: I just read it. I mean, we already. We said were just stealing shit. We're just recycling everything on the Internet. Kayla: We're aggregating the aggregators who are aggregating themselves.

25:14 Chris: Yeah, and as long as we admit it, everything's fine. Kayla: Yep. Chris: Lamont Lindstrom, a professor of anthropology at the University of Tulsa, has been studying the phenomenon of cargo cults as well as the related phenomenon of how outsiders react to them since his first visit to Tana. So Tana is actually the name of the island that I have not mentioned yet because it was in a later section, but I forgot it was mentioned here in the 1970s. So he first visited Tana in the 1970s. Kayla: Okay. Chris: He argues that the term has become one of his fields, and so he's a professor of anthropology. That's not a niche field, that's anthropology. Kayla: Right. Right. Chris: He argues that the term has become one of his field's most persistent legacies, on par with concepts such as worldview, socialization, culture, and rite of passage.

26:04 Kayla: What? Chris: He argues that the term cargo cult is on par with those concepts. In a 2013 paper, he sums up the various kinds of symbolic roles we have assigned to those who believe in John Frum and his brethren. Quote. So now this quote within a quote, because the article is talking about this guy, and now this guy is talking cargo cultists, and this is him. Even more meta. Sorry, this is him, like, saying what we bring to it. This is not him saying this. Kayla: Okay? Chris: Cargo cultists are misguided, even stupid nitwits who are deluded by irrational thinking and overblown desire. Or cargo cultists are gallant rebels, cultural critics even, who scorn and reveal the dull, soul numbing lessons of our consumerist modernity. He continues, the term as a metaphor, functions as a barely disguised model of western desire itself, although a desire that is displaced onto Melanesia. Cargo cult is a just so story about our peculiarly modern mode of desiring that is always ultimately unrequited, unquenchable, and never ending.

27:15 Kayla: Capitalism is a cargo cult, is what he just said there? Chris: Pretty much. Kayla: Damn. I can't. We have to stop recording. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't have my entire worldview uprooted and upheaved every two weeks. Chris: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We can go back to talking about suicide. Kayla: No, please go. Chris: So how much does the cargo cult research, up to and including the entire first part of this podcast. Kayla: Right. Chris: Say about the actual cults? And how much does it say about us? For what it's worth, another sociologist that I read about also mentioned that the phenomenon of primitive, idyllic cultures literally worshipping american goods and american personages is flattering. In a word, sure. It's a story that is both interesting and also makes you go, oh, we are great. Yeah, that's awesome.

28:09 Kayla: Right? Like, it definitely. I was a little uncomfortable when this episode started because I was like, oh, this feels kind of icky. It feels kind of icky to be talking about this nameless other being like, oh, they don't know anything about western culture, and they're just, like, worshipping it. You know what I mean? It can feel a little icky at first blush. Chris: So you're saying that my structure basically totally worked on you? Kayla: Yes, absolutely. Chris: Wow. You're just like, I can just lead you like a. I can just put, like, a carrot. Attach a carrot to a horse's head and just have him. Kayla: Isn't that horse's head. Chris: How does that work? What's it. Kayla: I don't know if attaching a carrot to a horse's head is gonna get me to go anywhere, but if you want to attach a carrot to a stick and dangle it in front of my face.

28:56 Chris: Yeah, there we go. Carrot on stick in front of face. Kayla: Yeah. I'm not gonna follow a horse's carrot. That's weird. Chris: Anyway, the thing is, though, the Jon frum cult is real, so it's not like these things don't exist. It's not like these rituals aren't actually happening. It's not like they aren't actually raising american flags and doing these ceremonies. So let's talk a little bit more about that. A lot of these so called cargo cults across the Pacific have waned and disappeared as it became more and more apparent that cargo was never getting dropped. You can only do that so long when you're like, I guess it's gone. Right? Kayla: That makes me sad. Chris: Yeah, me too. But maybe they're better off. I don't know. But maybe not, as we'll talk about. So why do people still believe in Mister Frum on his island? Well, my friend, that is what brings us back to that description that we opened the episode with. This group is not just a bunch of air quote primitives doing misguided mimicry rituals. It has a mythology, holy locations, a succession of spiritual leaders, and is a very real chunk of social glue for the people on the island of Tana. Let's talk a little bit about that place to see how the John frum cult came into existence and turned it into what it is today. All right, because you think, and this is just me going off script, off my own script.

30:23 Chris: But, you know, if you know anything about cargo cults or if you've heard about them before, really, all you ever hear about them is like, oh, interesting. Like, people build landing strips thinking that's what makes the cargo come from like, oh, cool. But when. When I really read about this john from cult, it's so much more than that. That you never, ever hear about. Kayla: I'm shocked already, and I don't even know what you're gonna say. Chris: So, the island of Tana is part of an island chain called Vanuatu. Sorry? It's a chain nation. I think the nation is called Vanuatu. I'm not sure if the islands as a whole, as a group, are called that. I think it's a shit ton of islands. It was, like 30 or 40 or something. And this is in the south Pacific. I want to say it's, like, off the northeastern. I looked this up, and I forget now because the Pacific's a big place, but it's, like, off the northeastern coast of Australia, like, a thousand miles out or something like that. But back in the day, they were called the New Hebrides. You may remember the Hebrides as islands we visited off the atlantic side of.

31:26 Kayla: Scotland, you and me. Yeah, we visited a place called the Hebrides. Chris: All of those islands we visited were called the Hebrides. Kayla: What? What? Where? What islands? Chris: Like Skye. Remember went to Skye. Kayla: Those are called the Hebrides. Not a single person told me that. How was I supposed to. Chris: We totally did. Oh, my God. Paula's gonna be really upset with you. Kayla: Well, Pauldin. Well, I didn't hear you. Chris: Well, anyway, all of those. Kayla: I was listening very well. For an entire two weeks, collectively paying attention. Chris: Wow. So that's. That's great. Kayla: Now I know. Chris: I'm glad you got value out of that trip. Kayla: I did. Chris: Yeah. So, all of those islands on the upper part of the british isle, the. So, the north western side of the island, are called the Hebrides collectively.

32:15 Kayla: Good job. I'm glad I'm finding this out after the fact. Chris: So, bringing it back to thousands and thousands of miles away, these islands were called by their colonialists the New Hebrides. Okay, so, right, this was gonna work a little bit better. I was gonna be like, oh, so what does that say? That if they're named after something in Scotland, well, that means that they're a colony. Whoa. But whatever. That's a little bit. Kayla: But I'm stupid, and I ruined it, is what you're saying. Chris: I wouldn't say stupid. Kayla: I would say inattentive. Chris: Yeah. Inattentive. Ignorant. Kayla: Just dumb. Chris: No, you're none of those things. We learned a lot. I mean, were also drinking a lot of scotch, so, I mean, I'll.

32:57 Kayla: Blame it on the scotch. Chris: Yeah, do that. So, actually, these islands were technically joint managed by the British and the French, because somehow they, like, couldn't figure out which one of them had the claim to it or something. I don't know. Not super important. But what is important is, well, one of the well known aspects of european style colonialism that I mentioned before is the spreading of the christian religion and western customs with natives encountered in colonial lands. So natives in these lands, new Hebrides included, tend to, well, already have a culture there. Kayla: Right. Chris: In the case of Tana island, they refer to this cultural heritage as castome kastom, and it covers pretty much the entire range of culture. So, like marriages, dances, food, even a preferred psychoactive substance that they use there called kava.

33:49 Kayla: Oh, yeah, I've heard of kava. Chris: I feel like I had heard of kava, too. Kayla: That's the only thing that I've heard of. Wow. Chris: Yeah, yeah. You've heard of the drug. Good job. Kayla: Oh, fuck. Chris: Wow. Kayla: That's because I wanted to take you to. There's a kava bar down in Orange county that I want to take you to. Chris: You did tell me about that. Oh, we're definitely going after this episode now. Well, yeah. So they really dig kava there. Kayla: Alright, good to know. Chris: So, yeah, so, as in the common colonialism story elsewhere, these natives felt like their agency and identity were being stripped from them into this scenario. Enter Jon Frum and notice, if you will, that I haven't mentioned world war two yet.

34:29 Kayla: You have not? Chris: According to at least one Tana Islander, just before the war came to the Pacific, a man calling himself John from America visited the island, bringing his very christ like messages of, you know, renewal and, you know, believing in me and I shall return. That kind of stuff. And the savior figure did indeed promise material rewards for being faithful. Okay, such as the cargo. Right. That was definitely a part of it. Kayla: Right. Chris: But that was far from his primary message. In fact, the most important part of the message was one of resisting their colonial occupation, and specifically of rejecting the western culture that was being enforced, and to re embrace their own customs that is castome. And these days, even the cargo message is interpreted as meaning that self renewal. Self renewal brings fulfillment and success. So these days, they talk about the cargo more as a metaphor. And now, again, remember, this is the only cargo cult, or one of the only ones that's still around. So if you're trying to decide why is it still around? This is why. Right.

35:40 Kayla: My mind is blown. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: What is happening? Chris: So a lot of the adherents believe it almost more as metaphor, that, like, you know, John Frum said he would bring us material wealth, right? And we didn't get cargo, but, like, today, my son is studying to become a lawyer, and my daughter is studying to become a doctor. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: So did that not happen? This is so I'd like to quote quot I'd like to quote that topic article again here in Wahe's telling. And Wahe's, I believe that, oh, I should have looked this up. So they have, like, a guy whose title that I don't quite remember, and I didn't write down because I'm delinquent, but it's like, he's basically like the religious leader of the cult. And I believe that's this guy Wahe. So in Wahe's telling, Jon from had nothing to do with an imposed cargo cult narrative of sitting around waiting for outside help to arrive.

36:38 Kayla: Okay? Chris: Instead, he had come to symbolize all kastome on Tana, all the stones and spirits and living traditions. They used the john to bring it all together. John was an emblem not of external transformation, but of becoming more yourself. Kayla: This is not capitalism cargo cult. Chris: It was people waiting around on a totally superstitious. This isn't real airstrip, right? Or is it a story of a savior figure coming in, an american, no doubt. That's how they conceived it. That's all the rituals are all about that. But saying, not like, dude, get the capitalism stuff. Instead saying, if you go here and ask these people, they would say, no, no, it's not about the cargo. It's about renewal. It's about self renewal. And in fact, as a part of a little side rabbit hole, I went down on this. There's actually a term for it called, I believe, like spiritual renewal. And there's these basically renewal processes that happened. And I think it frequently happens when there is some culture shock going on or like, power dynamics, like there is with colonialism.

37:49 Kayla: Right? Chris: And it will trigger this sense of, like, oh, like, you know, there's a spiritual leader that then needs to, well, you know, promises that the future will better if you do XYZ. And then that leads to, like, a transformative sort of social situation. And, like, and again, not to go back to the parallels with Christianity, but, like, literally, that's what was happening with Christianity. We have this massively powerful roman empire, and then you have this less powerful jewish people, and this figure appears within that community to say, like, hey, there's gonna be a renewal. Kayla: Right? Right. Chris: And so this is exactly what Jon Frum was like. So question. Well, this is not really a question. I'm gonna start this again, in fact, because it's definitely not a question.

38:32 Kayla: Answer. Chris: Answer. Did you know that the word from. In the tannese language sounds like a word that means broom? Kayla: Broom. Chris: Broom. Like, you know what you sweep with John Broom. So at least one islander believes. And this is, again, there are many theories. This is just. Some people believe this, but at least one islander believes that John from doesn't mean John from America. They still conceive him as an American, but that's not where the word comes from. To him, the word comes from the word for broom in Tannese. So it's not Jon from America, but John the broom, come to sweep away the oppressors.

39:13 Kayla: I don't even know what to say, honestly. Chris: Like, again, there's, like, eight different theories about who Jon from is, and that's only one of them. Kayla: But you're gonna get very little banter from me on this, because this is. I knew very little about cargo cults going into this, and this has just cracked my mind egg wide open. It is frying on the pan. Chris: Well, I'm gonna flip it over and fry it just a little more. A little more frying. So just sit tight. One of the anthropological theories, of course, is that he didn't even exist, which, to me, seems likely. Kayla: Right? Chris: And that he's just an amalgamation of american soldiers who did, in fact, come to Tana in droves during world War two and who were, like, generally, you know, generous and whatever with the locals. But the tannies also saw both white and black soldiers standing on equal ground and partaking of the fantastical material wealth that they had never seen before. And this essentially seeded them with the idea that they could aspire to the same.

40:10 Kayla: That's really interesting that you say that, because, again, I don't know. I know very little about history in general, and I don't know how, like, intra military relations played out overseas. Chris: I don't either. Kayla: I do know that the american military was still segregated. Chris: Yeah. I know that they had a lot of segregation still going on with, like, the Tuskegee airmen and all that stuff. Kayla: Right. And, like. And there was hierarchies and stuff. So it's interesting to hear that in other places that may not have been how it actually played out. Chris: So I didn't do enough research on this to, like, say, definitively. So this is just going to be a speculation time for me. But I speculate that there's. There's sort of two aspects here is. One is that I'm sure there was still plenty of discrimination as compared to what we would think. But from the eyes of a tannis person who had been suffering under the heel of colonialism and such a distinct hierarchy between all of their colonial masters who were white and them who were not, I think to them, they probably wouldn't have noticed as much. To them, it would have seemed equal.

41:15 Kayla: Right. Chris: Okay. And then I also have to imagine that, like. And this is really speculation realm for me because I've never been in the military, and I don't know that much about it, but I'm assuming that less, like, in the field, like, on the foot soldier level, there was probably more comradeship than discrimination. The discrimination was more on, like, a structural level. Kayla: Right. I can't speak specifically to, like, race relations, but I can say, like, with a high level of confidence that, like, queerness in the military, even at the time, was, like, necessarily, like, overlooked, but just kind of like, if you're. Yeah. If you're in the field, if you're in the middle of war, like, if.

41:58 Chris: You'Re with me in a foxhole, then. Kayla: Yeah, you stop caring about who's gay, who's straight. And, like, there's beautiful stories of, like, you know, soldiers dying in each other's arms. Like, male soldiers who are lovers dying in each other's arms, and they're like, what is it? Their military brethren, like, what is the correct term? Chris: Band of brothers? Kayla: Their colleagues. I don't know. Like, making sure to, like, keep them safe in those moments. Like, those kinds of things sometimes, not always go out the window a little bit. Chris: Yeah. I mean, my understanding is that, like, the bond of brothership that you have during, especially, like, active wartime is, like, one of the strongest interpersonal bonds that can be made.

42:41 Kayla: Right. Chris: Which to me, would supersede probably, at least at that ground level. Supersede things like racial and sexual orientation divides, things like that. Kayla: And probably not always, but certainly to a great enough degree that you and I can understand why a group of people might look at black and white military men from America and go, like, oh, equal footing. Chris: Yeah. I mean, even, like, let's just, you know, let's say there was a mess hall, and in the mess hall, you know, there was who? And I'm just, again, speculation. This may not have been true, but if there was, like, you know, the black table and the white table, like, to us, that feels like discrimination, and it is. But to the tannies, they might look at that and say, wow, look at those black people getting to eat at the same time, all the same food. Like, why can't we do that?

43:27 Kayla: Right. Chris: Right. So it's some of its. Some of its relative, unfortunately. Kayla: Right. Chris: So, yeah. So that was. And that's only one theory, of course, too. But one of theories is that was something that inspired them to action. And that's part of why maybe one of the versions of Jon Frum is imagined as a black person. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: So, yeah, coca cults are definitely weird. Kayla: Is that the end? The end? Chris: Cargu cults are weird. The end. But, you know, they're out of the ordinary. They definitely involve a style of ritual that western people find curious. Kayla: Right. Chris: But at least in the case of the cult of John Frum, it is also an integral and healthy part of the society in which it operates. It's not like we're immune to it either. In the west. Far from it. Look no further than the anti vax movement. The anti vax movement is totally based on spurious correlation. It's like, oh, if x, then y, so better not do x anymore. Or even less annoying things than antivax. Right. For example, did you know that there's absolutely no correlation between eating and getting cramps when swimming right after?

44:40 Kayla: I did know that. I also know. Chris: I wish that you didn't because then that would have been so dramatic. Kayla: Sorry. I did know that. I also know that, like, going out with wet hair is not gonna make you catch a cold. Those kinds of things, they're just like myths. Sorry. Chris: I actually read a bunch of those if you want to detour. I also read that cracking your knuckles does not actually cause arthritis. Kayla: I knew that and that's why I let you crack mine. Sometimes it just hurts. Chris: Oh, God. We have to cut that because my parents are gonna be really upset with me. Kayla: What, that you crack my knuckles? Chris: Yeah. Please, please cut this part. Kayla: Please save me. Chris: No. And then the thing that really blew my mind, and this is kind of way off track, but I was trying to look up things that were like, what are things that people think that aren't true? Did you know this is actually gonna be the most mind blowing thing in the whole episode?

45:29 Kayla: I don't wanna hear it. Please don't say it. Chris: Did you know that the word irregardless is a real word in the dictionary? Kayla: Do you want me to say? No? Chris: Oh, my God. Did you know that I'm on Twitter? Kayla: Too much dog fuck. Yeah. Chris: Let's just cut this whole thing. I mean, I was actually gonna save and tell you that afterward. I wasn't even gonna tell you on the show. Kayla: It blew my mind when I found that outd. Chris: Okay, okay. Okay. Thank you. Kayla: It's it's insane, right? Chris: I read that, and I was like, nope, not real. This cannot be real. And I looked it up, and I was like, I am in a. I'm in a Mandela universe. Kayla: And doesn't it mean the same thing as regardless?

46:11 Chris: Yes. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: But it's. It is. From what I read, it's, like, frowned upon usage because of the structure. Kayla: Right. Chris: Because regardless means without regard, and then irregardless means not without regard to. Kayla: Right. Chris: But instead, it actually means the same thing, which is without regard, which is. So that's. It's basically not. Should not be used because it's confusing. Kayla: It's. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, it is my. Chris: But if you use it's technically correct. Kayla: That word is in the dictionary, meaning the thing that everyone's like, you're correct. Chris: It's messed up, and I don't like it. And I'm pretty sure that I'm like. Kayla: You'Re in the Mandela universe. Chris: I'm in the Mandela universe. The Berenstein bears and everything else. Kayla: Berenstain.

46:51 Chris: But, yeah. So going back to what I was talking about, you know, we in the west do this stuff, too. I mean, do athletes know that all the little lucky charms and rituals that they don't actually affect the outcome of the game? Kayla: Like when that guy on the Seattle basketball team or the Seattle basketball team. Chris: Well, there is none now, the supersonics. Kayla: I guess he thought that if he rubbed Niles head. Chris: Oh, yeah, that was in the nineties, and they were. They talked about the sonics on that show a lot. Yeah. I mean, that's a common thing, right? Kayla: We're talking about Frasier, FYI, just in case you didn't catch it, Fraser. Chris: Niles. Yeah. And yet, perhaps the rituals put these athletes in the right frame of mind to go out in the field, right. And do what they need to do.

47:37 Kayla: It's why the secret is real. Chris: In that sense, I'd say we maybe actually have a lot in common with the cargo cult on the island of Tana. Kayla: I mean, don't. Do you have any superstitions, personally? Like, do you have any, like, things. Chris: I know I do. I know I do. Like, even though I'm like, oh, I'm not superstitious. Like, they're sort of unavoidable. I feel like they're just, like, kind of part of our mental makeup. Kayla: Sure. Chris: I can't think of what they are like, of what any. Kayla: I know. I want to think of one of mine right now. I have to. Chris: Should we play the jeopardy music? And then. Kayla: And then if I candies or like anything small like that, I have to eat one on either side of my mouth or else it'll wear out.

48:17 Chris: That's not a superstitious. Kayla: Else it'll wear out one side of my jaw fast. Chris: I think that's just OCD. Kayla: No, it's. It would be OCD if I just needed it because it didn't feel right. But it's because I'm worried that there's an imbalance. Like an actual imbalance. And there's definitely not. I don't need enough. I eat a lot of m and M's in my life. I don't need enough to cause a jaw imbalance. Chris: I mean, I take fish oil. God knows if that does a damn thing. Kayla: Oh, yeah, I guess vitamins could definitely be. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Cause. Especially cause vitamins. Chris: Like, I did the master cleanse once before. I learned that it was not effective. Kayla: Yeah, and the jury's still out on vitamins. Yeah, I know the jury's also still out. Did you know this? This blew my mind. The jury is still out on probiotics. Chris: Oh, I did read that probiotics might.

48:58 Kayla: Be like, fucking you up. I take a probiotic every morning with my vitamins. Chris: I'm going to continue to perform that cargo cult ritual. Yeah, I actually didn't have this on here, but it's like cargo cult is such a part of the gestalt that there's actually a term called cargo cult programming. Kayla: What? Chris: And cargo cult programming is. It's basically a slur as a programmer. And it means. Kayla: Wait, what do you mean, a programmer? Like a computer programmer or a coder? Chris: Yeah. And it basically means, like, if you get accused of being a cargo cult programmer, it means that you've taken whole chunks of code from somewhere and put it in your code base without knowing how it works. And just, like, hoping that it'll work.

49:41 Kayla: That is the most evocative phrase, isn't it? That is a beautiful metaphor. And God bless language for producing those pieces of minuscule art. Chris: I know. God, I know. So, yeah, I thought it was interesting drawing that comparison to athletes. Right? Because, yes, it's superstitious and there's no actual causality there, but if it puts you in the right frame of mind to do what you need to do, maybe it's beneficial. And to me, that feels almost exactly what the John frum cult is to the people of Tana. It's not real, but it puts them in the right frame of mind to shake off these yolks of colonialism and renew their society and have their future sons and daughters become lawyers and doctors and whatnot. It's. It's interesting, the, You know how I was, like, try to, like, look for a theme, right? You know, like, with Star Citizen.

50:37 Kayla: Why your episodes are good. Chris: Star Citizen. It was. Star Citizen was like the Pascal's dilemma, right? What if you. You know, what if your God died? If you didn't feed him? And then in the RSC one, I don't know. Kayla: What. Chris: What the hell was my theme in that one? Kayla: For Ramtha? Chris: Yeah. Oh, it was about physics and, like, how. Kayla: Right. Chris: How crazy quantum mechanics is. And that. Yeah. So. So this one I was like. Because I was trying to find my theme in this one. Kayla: Are those the only two episodes you've done? Yeah. Chris: And this one and this one. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. Kayla: Damn. Chris: This one I was like, okay, it's gonna be about. I think the angle here is statistical correlation. Like, you know, people misunder. Misinterpreting statistics and not understanding how, you know, one thing, like causation doesn't. Correlation doesn't imply causation. And that's. That'll be the thing that I build it around.

51:27 Kayla: Right? Chris: And then as I read more about the actual. Actual cargo cults, in particular about Jon Frum, I was like, wait, that's not theme. The theme is that I didn't actually know that much about what cargo cults actually were. Kayla: Right. Chris: To the people that were there. I knew what I thought about cargo cults, but I didn't know that they, like. Particularly in the case of this Jon frum thing, like, legit social institutions. Kayla: Right. At first blush, it feels like, oh, this is a misguided worship of, like, western material. Good. And really, it's a. Oh, no. This is a return to cultural roots. To, like, remove the shackles of the western. Chris: Right.

52:07 Kayla: Colonizer. Chris: But with, like, this fascinating western flavor. Anyway. Kayla: Well, it's. Do you remember back many years ago, you and I were tiny children? This is like a conversation we probably had, like, ten years ago. Chris: I'm not even kidding. Kayla: And were talking about. It was the halcyon days. We were talking about America and what it means to be american. Chris: I think I remember this. Kayla: And you said something about how, like. Chris: Yeah, I remember this. Kayla: I don't quite remember what you said, but you basically said, like, there's. There's, like, America the country, and then there's also, like. Like, America. The spirituality like what? America.

52:49 Chris: America the idea? Kayla: Yeah, America the idea and how, like. And it doesn't always line up with what the country is doing. I think that, you know, maybe right now, we're not in a time where America is lining up. Chris: Right. There's always been two Americas idea. I mean, that's not my idea, sure, but, yeah. Kayla: Take the. Take the. Take the win. You were the first person I heard it from because I was a tiny child. It just kind of feels like when you can really dig down to what, like, America should be. Chris: Mm. Kayla: It's maybe a little bit more in line with this, like, spirituality that Tana has absolutely adapted. Chris: I think that's actually really insightful. And I hadn't.

53:30 Kayla: I don't want to say that they're the real Americans because that's, like, really insulting to them. It's more like we as Americans should be relearning what it is to be american by looking at groups like that. Chris: Sure, sure. And actually, from what I understand, there is, like, some tourism around this now. So, like, people actually visit, especially on February 15, they will go and visit and, like, my birthday. Kayla: Let's go. Chris: I know we should. In fact, that's, I think, why it appeared up on atlas obscure. I had an article about it is because it's like, now it's kind of like a obscure, interesting thing to do. But I think you're right. I think, to me, what rings true there is the two Americas thing. Like, America, the reality, the place, right. Which is dirty and messy, and I. Sometimes good and sometimes not. And then there's, like, America the ideal. And since these folks have, you know, they haven't been to America, so to them, all it is that ideal. All it is that idea. And they see these, like, optimistic soldiers that come in and, you know, are generous with them, have, like, racial equality from their perspective. And when they leave, there's no more colonialism. Like, of course you're going to be like, cool, right?

54:42 Kayla: That's dope, right. Chris: And then integrate that with your, like. You know, I think that, like, to me, what that sort of says is, like, I think that Americans would want us to return to our customs and be who we are as individuals. Like, be. Be who we are not as individuals, but as a. As our society. Be ourselves. Kayla: Right. Chris: Which is inspiring. Kayla: Right, right. To just kind of, like, actually focus on those, like, ideals of, like, freedom and whatever the fuck. Chris: I feel like we should end this one with, like, you know, like, glory, like America. What's that? Kayla: You want to sing America. That's not a song.

55:22 Chris: America. Fuck, yeah, we could do that. Kayla: No, you just say America. That's not the song. Chris: No. Like, was it America the beautiful? I don't know the names of these songs. I just know to sing them. Kayla: Some patriot you are. Chris: Well, I can sing them. Kayla: Go ahead. Chris: No, ain't doing that. Kayla: I'm just saying we have a lot to learn from the groups that we have talked about today, we as Americans. And I think it's really interesting to remember that, like, maybe sometimes our version of quote unquote America is not the most american. The America. The idea. Chris: Yeah, maybe. Which is very interesting. Kayla: Hashtag capitalism. Chris: So it's actually. Kayla: Hashtag capitalism is a cargo call.

56:04 Chris: I believe that mister. I think it was Mister Wahe. But it was one of these elders. So he actually has personally visited America. Kayla: Okay. Chris: This wasn't in my script, but he's personally visited America. And the person that was there interviewing him was basically like, so, like, what was it like? I mean, what, you know, was. It's not like Shangri La. It's not like the. Kayla: Right. Chris: Because they see America is basically like this sort of, like pseudo heaven. Kayla: Sure. Chris: Right. And this guy basically said, like, yeah. Like, he was definitely impressed by the material wealth and all that stuff, but he was also, like, saddened by a lot of the pollution and inequality and stuff that he saw when he was here.

56:54 Kayla: Right. Chris: This is, like, a Pacific islander has, like, zero context for modern culture, and he's still came here and saw some of these things. Kayla: Right. Chris: It still bugged him, but he didn't go back and be like, oh, everything's wrong. Oh, this is all a sham. He's still the village elder. Like, he still is the leader of this faith. Kayla: Because that goes back to the whole. To America's thing. Chris: Right? Kayla: Yeah. Even if we right now don't live up to the ideals that we should, like, those ideals exist even outside of the concept of America. Like, those ideals exist. Chris: Right. Kayla: And, yeah, I think that's, you know, I'm an american person that's only lived here, so my view on this is very limited. Chris: Right. Kayla: But I think that makes sense.

57:35 Chris: Yeah. And I mean, like, the real America and the real anywhere, I don't think will ever live up to ideals, but I think it's important to have those ideals. And something like the John frum cult, like, illustrates why it's important to have those ideals. Kayla: When are we doing America cult or just weird? Chris: Whenever you want. Kayla: Is that just gonna be the entirety of season two? Because season two is Disney. Chris: So season two. Oh, yeah, season two is all Disney. Yeah. I mean, we probably could get a whole season on, like, the aspects, you know, like, oh, the political culture and the Freemasons that started the country. I don't know, capitalism. Kayla: A whole bunch of non anti vax. All the great things we've started. Those pentecostal snake holders.

58:19 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: What more do you want? Chris: So with that, would you like to speak about the criteria and you. Kayla: Want me to get my paper out? Chris: Yeah, it's my favorite part of the episode. All right, tell me what you think. Kayla: Should I go through, should I remind our listeners of our criteria? I can just go through them by one. Chris: Yeah, I'll just go through them one by one. Kayla: Number one, expected harm towards the individual, socially, physically, etcetera. Chris: What do you think? Kayla: Zero. None. Chris: In fact, I was like, it's the opposite. To me, this feels like something that provides value. Kayla: Yeah. Yeah. It's like the opposite. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: This I will need your opinion on because we have population of cult, which has been a controversial.

59:03 Chris: I have a specific note about that. So can we push that one to the end? Kayla: We can, but I do want to note that, like, it's a bit of a controversial criteria. We've had some feedback. Okay. So we'll move on to the next one, which is antifactuality, specifically a closed logical system. Chris: Mm. Kayla: I don't. I don't know if there's much of that. Chris: Would it help? Actually, this probably only makes this more confusing, but there's actually been a schism, which I think has since died out. Kayla: You love a good schism. Chris: Yeah. Schism, to me, that's when. That's when you're real. Like, that's when you've made. It is when somebody. Kayla: That's when you're a religion. Chris: That's when you're real. Yeah. So there has been a schism, and I think it's died out. But from what I got from my readings, it didn't seem like there was a lot of, if you didn't believe in this or if you were tried to get out, then, like, you were evil and bad and wrong and things disproving it only makes the belief stronger. Or what. There wasn't really a lot of that. I mean, certainly the superstition is not factual, I guess.

1:00:13 Kayla: Sure. But it's also like, and we've talked about this with other things, and you and I have talked about this with, like, our own, you know, spiritual things that we do. Like, you know, like me going to Reiki or whatever. It's. Sometimes it's hard to, like, parse out in a spiritual belief. Like, what is an actual belief and what is, like, a metaphorical belief, like, right. Chris: What is me believing in magic, and what is me doing something that's, like, metaphorical and effective. Kayla: Right. Chris: It's kind of like. Actually. It's kind of like the athlete example, right? Kayla: Exactly. Chris: Do athletes actually think that there's, like, magic going on when they, you know, rub their head three times before they got the pitcher's mound? I don't know. Probably not. But, like, if it puts you in that frame of mind that, like, that winner's frame of mind that, you know, of expecting to succeed and therefore acting that out, then it can be effective. So if that's what you're saying is true here, then I. I'd say the anti factual. I think there's some, but it's very.

1:01:12 Kayla: Low because it's like, that whole thing of, like, I guess it's not. This is the whole thing. It has me thinking about how, like, with the athlete example, like, what we're talking about here, it's almost like your logical. Your. I don't know. What's another word for logical? Chris: I'd say left brained, but that was another thing that I read that was actually fake, too. Kayla: That's not real. You're, like, evidence based logical, like, ego, super ego brain. Basically accessing a way to work with your, like, unconscious. Chris: Like, your intuitive and unconscious to work. Kayla: With, like, that non intellectual, logical side of you that very much exists. Like, you can't. You can't wish your lizard brain away, you know, like, you can't wish that, like, really deep seated id, unconscious lizardbeard, whatever you want to call it. So maybe some of these rituals and some of these beliefs are just a way to communicate.

1:02:14 Chris: Yeah, I agree. Kayla: Between those two parts of yourself. Chris: It's like logic. You can logic your way through something by using deliberate thought, but how do you actually have any sort of input into your subconscious, and it feels like that's kind of where this stuff comes in, potentially. Kayla: Okay, so antifactuality, 1% sure, low. Chris: Whatever. Kayla: It's low. Small percentage of life consumed. How much of your time is devoted? I don't know. Can you shed some light on that? To me, it felt living in this. Or is this like church once a week? Chris: I think it's more like church once a week. And even then, if you recall from the narrative, it's almost like the religion is. Serves the culture more than the other way around.

1:03:01 Kayla: Okay. Chris: Right. It's not like. It's not like the culture serves the religion like the culture says. Like, oh, we got to do x, y, z, because the religion says instead. It's more like the religion says, hey, go back to your cultural stuff that you're doing before. Do that. Do that cultural stuff. Kayla: Right. It's almost like, here's just a little, like, switch rather than, like, here's the framework. It's just like, here's the signpost that turns you back to the framework. Chris: Right. It's so. It's kind of fuzzy. Like. And also, I don't think I did enough research to know whether there. But I don't think that there's, like, people that go to, you know, the compound every single day. I don't think they have compounds. I don't know.

1:03:41 Kayla: From what you talked about, it seems like it's similar. It's a similar aspect of life as, like, a casual, like, catholic person might be. I think it is actually major holidays, and maybe you go on some Sundays and, you know, you. You probably pray sometimes and think about it, but it's not necessarily. You're not moving to TL swan's compound in Costa Rica. Chris: Right. So I would call it fuzzy, but low. Yeah. Kayla: Okay. Chris: And I think that the catholic, like, casual catholic thing is probably pretty accurate. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Without having visited Tanah myself. Kayla: Right, right. Remember that we are speaking as people who've only done some light research, not anthropologists who have immersed ourselves in said culture. Ritual.

1:04:27 Chris: Ritual, I would say, is right up there. You know, because that's, like, the whole. It's like the whole thing. Right? Like, that's why they're. They're known. Kayla: It's like the reenactments. It's the. Chris: It's the reenactments. It's the. It's the uniforms. It's the props. They actually. So they used to. They used to paint the words USA on their chests. On their bare chests. Kayla: Okay. Chris: When they did these ceremonies on February 15. And apparently. I don't know. I don't remember where they got this from, but, like, apparently some person or group from America donated, like, a shit ton of military uniforms to them, and now they wear those. Kayla: Okay, I want to know who those people are that did that. Who did the donating.

1:05:08 Chris: I know. Kayla: And why. Chris: I don't know. Kayla: That's really interesting. Chris: I know. I know. Sorry. I don't know more about that shit. Yeah. So I'd say rituals up there. Kayla: Okay. Rituals up there. And then second to last, because you said you wanted to talk about population. Second to last is charismatic leader, which, while the leader is potentially fictional, I think is enough of a figure that I would say there is one, for sure. Chris: Yeah, it's weird because it's like, would you call Jesus the charismatic leader of Christianity? Or is it a pope or like. Or at least Catholicism anyway, right? I know not everybody believes in the pope. Excuse me. But, you know, I mean, I guess I would say it's Jesus. So in this case, it's probably John from. But they also have, I mean, they have like, a village elder guy that. Sure, Mister Wahe that. So they still have. But he's not like a charismatic leader.

1:05:57 Kayla: He's just like, I think John Frum's the charismatic leader. Chris: He's just the guy that's in charge right now. Yeah. Kayla: Plus the name John Frums. Chris: And Mister Wahe is, like, super chill, too. He's not like, join my cult. He's like, hey, welcome to the island. You want to have some kava with me? Anyway, here's our volcano. Kayla: Like, sounds like a lot of fun. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: So, okay, so expected harm, low antifexuality, low percentage of life consumed, low ritual and charismatic leader are present. And then you want to talk about population as a criterion. Chris: Yeah. So the weird thing here. So as you mentioned, I think it's a bit of a controversial criteria. Because all the other criteria are cult or just weird.

1:06:38 Kayla: Right. Chris: This criteria is like cult or just religion. Right. Because what we're really trying to suss out with this criteria is not anything to do with number of people. Right. It's how niche is this? Kayla: Right? Chris: Is this accepted by most of society or rejected by most of society? If we wanted to be super, if we wanted to be super precise, maybe we should change the criteria to accept versus reject from society. Or we could just keep it what it is. So we have, like, something dramatic to talk about every week. I don't know. But in the case of John Fromm, I think if we change it to accepted versus rejected by most of society, then it's clearly on the side of not cult because it is accepted by most of the society of Tana.

1:07:22 Kayla: I think I am inclined to agree. Chris: So cult or just religion? Kayla: Yeah, this is. I think that we're back at another cult or just religion. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Which I think that teal Swan is way weirder in this situation. Chris: Way. Kayla: So I forget how we ended that. We said she was a cult, right? Chris: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Well, and the interesting thing about that too, is, like, last week, Washington, it felt like the story was, here's a weird thing, and I'm gonna start by looking at this weird thing. Oh, it's definitely a cult. And this one was like, well, it's called cargo cults. Should this even be on the show? Kayla: Right, right. Chris: It's called a cult up front. And then I looked at it and I was like, oh, wait, that's not.

1:08:03 Kayla: I'm gonna say it's not a cult. And I'm also gonna say it's not weird. I'm gonna say it's. It's a faith. Like, it's a. It's a cultural. Chris: It's a little weird. Kayla: I don't know if it's much weirder. Chris: Than like, oh, I'm not saying other religions weirder. I'm just saying. I'm just saying that it is weird. Kayla: Well, if the two. If the only two categories in the entire world are cult or just weird, and every religion there are weird, that's the podcast. All right, if those are the only two things, then it's just weird. Chris: I think it is both a religion and weird. And I. Kayla: No, there's only two categories. Chris: Fine, weird, but again, not necessarily as a pejorative. Right. Like, we don't necessarily mean weird to be bad, but, you know, 7000 miles away, in the middle of the goddamn Pacific Ocean, you have people raising american flags and doing military drills. And it's a little out of place seeming if you saw that without any other context.

1:09:01 Kayla: Yeah, it's novel for us, and it is interesting. Chris: Sure. Well, a lot of things that would be novel for them that wouldn't be weird for us, they would call weird. Kayla: That's fine. That's fine. Starbucks is weird. Chris: Starbucks is hella weird. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Starbucks has a cult logo. Kayla: They def. Starbucks cult are just weird. Chris: Well, spoilers. I think we actually probably would do them at some point. Kayla: I would be afraid. I would be afraid. Chris: You'd be afraid of Starbucks. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Well, you know, what's his name might be president soon, so he'd come after God. Kayla: Jesus Christ. Okay, so you. Chris: And on that depressing note, Jon from. Kayla: Not a cult, just. Just weird to us. And also very interesting. And I'm really glad you picked this topic because that was fascinating and just very different than. Yeah. The preconceived notions I had in my own mind.

1:09:51 Chris: Yeah, me too. Me too. Well, thank you for joining me on that journey. Kayla: Thank you for taking me on that journey. Chris: We'll never actually go to the South Pacific, so why not? I don't know. No, we'll go for sure. We'll go for sure. And then we can talk to Mister Wahei ourselves. Kayla: I mean, come on, it's my birthday. Chris: Oh, right. Oh, we're definitely going. Kayla: They celebrate my birthday. Chris: That's right. All right, well, thank you. And listeners as well. And of course, you know, follow us on Twitter as usual. Kayla: Instagram, Facebook, what are we culture? Chris: Just weird on Facebook? We are just weird on Twitter. Kayla: We are just weirdos on insta. And if you want to email us, we are cultorjustweirdmail.com, which actually, please email us. Reminds me.

1:10:36 Chris: Oh, yep. Kayla: We got our first listener suggestion. Chris: Yes. And we're definitely gonna do it. Kayla: And we are definitely gonna do it. I'm gonna call out our person. I can take it out later if we don't want it. But thank you very much to listener Colleen for turning us on to incredible organization that I cannot wait for one of us to talk about. Yeah, so super cool listeners, if you're out there, if you have, and this was a hometown group. So if any of you have hometown groups, maybe it's a yoga studio. That's a little weird. Or like a meditation group or a MLM. Those are my only examples. Chris: That's it. Those are the only things.

1:11:17 Kayla: Email us culturejustweirdmail.com. We will definitely look into it. We will most likely do an episode on it. And just again, thank you to Colleen, our listener, for sending us this group. It is fascinating. And we just, we love hearing from folks who are interested in these weird ass groups in the same way that we are. Chris: Yeah, seriously, it makes our whole day. But yeah, go rate us. Most importantly, go rate us five stars on iTunes. Kayla: Six five stars reviews. Chris: Currently 30 total stars. Kayla: So thank you for our 30 stars, listeners. We really appreciate it. Chris: Yeah, we really do. Kayla: This is Chris and this is Kayla. Chris: And this has been cult or just weird.