S1E5 - The Catalyst (Teal Swan)

0:00 Chris: Hey. Kayla: This is Chris, and this is Kayla. Your hosts from Cult are just weird. Chris: Before we start today's episode, we wanted to let you know that this is our very first two parter. Kayla: The episode you're about to listen to is part one of this topic. And you can listen to part two next time. Chris: We also wanted to give a quick heads up that this episode includes some pretty heavy topics, in particular, child abuse, sexual assault, and suicide. If these issues are sensitive for you, consider skipping this one. Kayla: Otherwise, enjoy episode five of cult or just weird. Was ASMR one of your topics?

0:55 Chris: It is now. Oh, my God, yes. Kayla: How have you never thought of that? Chris: I don't know how. That's not on the list. I'm adding it to the list mentally. Holy shit. No, I'm super into ASMR, and I think the reason that I am is actually because of. So this is gonna be super obscure. Kayla: Oh, God. Chris: But for those of you that are Disney fans, particularly the Hollywood studios, formerly MGM Studios in Orlando, Florida, there was this out of the way little attraction. It wasn't even a ride. It was just this four little booths. And you just sit in the booth and they're soundproof. So it's like, already it's air conditioned and soundproof when you've been walking around this loud, screaming kid. 98 degree heat and humidity. And so you're already like, oh, my God, this is so silent.

1:46 Kayla: Right? Chris: It's beautiful. Kayla: Oh, man, I want that right now. Chris: And then you put these headphones on and the whole thing is like this really cool, like roleplay 3d sound. So you're like this executive, and you have this guy that comes in and he goes up really close to the mic and says something, and then he goes back. And then you have a guy coming in a haircut. And so what I was saying, the. Kayla: Guy getting a haircut. Chris: No, you get the haircut. Kayla: You get the haircut. Chris: You get the haircut. And so they do the sounds of the scissors. Kayla: That's literally ASMR. Chris: I know, but this was like, man, it was the early nineties when the MGM studios opened. So this was like ASMR before anybody had even said the. This was ASMR before the Internet existed, much less said the letters ASMR together on YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's what really got me into it, because, like, I always loved that.

2:38 Kayla: Right? Chris: Ride. Kayla: Attraction. Chris: Attraction. I always loved it, like. Yeah. And especially because it's like one of those out of the way things. So, you know, whenever you take somebody to Disney that you know, isn't a Disney person. It's like, oh, I'm gonna take you to the cool thing that nobody knows about. Kayla: You never taken me there. Chris: Did take you there. Kayla: I. You have not taken me there. Chris: Oh, we're getting mandelaed because I know I've taken you there. Kayla: No, you haven't. Chris: All right, we're gonna have to take this one offline. Anyway, the thing that made me think of it is there's this part when they put a, quote unquote, they put a newspaper over your head because they're trying to make you think of like, okay, you have a turban because you're in the desert.

3:20 Kayla: And then they, what is the point of this attraction? Chris: Just to be cool. It's. It. So because it's MGM studios, it's like, here are all the aspects of making movies and animation and blah, blah. So there's this whole ride that's like the sound ride. And then this is just like this offshoot of that. It's like the thing you can do on the way out of this. I think it might be a show more than a ride. I don't know. I'm not super clear. Cause I never watched the show. I never did the sound ride slash show. I always just went to this thing, right? So they do this thing where they're like, I'm gonna put a turban on you. Let's. Let's use this newspaper. And then they take this thing and it sounds just like this. Yes. Now you have a newspaper in your head.

4:06 Kayla: That sounds scary. Chris: No, it's like, I don't know. It always gave me goosebumps. Kayla: It gave you ASMR. Chris: It gave me ASMR tingles. So now I listen to that every single night when I go to sleep. Kayla: Okay, but here's the thing, though. We've talked about how ASMR should be on the list of culture. Just weird. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Have we talked about how Disney should be on the list of cult or just weird? Chris: We kind of have. Because remember when we talked about Irvine, were like, oh, we should do celebration. But like, that's the thing. Kayla: You could zoom out and just do the whole. Chris: You could. But I feel like we could get like five or six episodes out of Disney. Kayla: Like, season two. Chris: It's just Disney season two, the Disney Chronicles. I mean, you could do the original epcot.

4:49 Kayla: You could do celebration. Chris: Celebration. You could do, I don't know, Disney fans. Kayla: You gotta do Disney fans. Chris: There's some really obsessed Disney fans like myself. Kayla: You're definitely in the Disney cult. Chris: Yeah, I'm a member, but we're not. Kayla: Talking about either of those things in this episode. Chris: Yeah, I'm super excited about this episode because you've been saying for, like, weeks now how intense the research was and how much stuff there was and how hard it was to figure out what to keep and how to organize it. I'm so excited. Kayla: Well, before we jump into it, we should say, welcome to cult or just weird. Chris: Oh, yeah. Welcome to cult or just weird. That's Chris and that's Kayla.

5:32 Kayla: That was cute. You had no idea what I was doing there. Chris: No. That pause was me being like, what's going on? Oh, that. Kayla: Okay, that's fine. Yeah. So we're not talking about Disney today on. Actually, I should point out this is our fifth episode. Ooh, that's like, a mini milestone. Chris: Can we do, like, a fanfare sound right now? Like from morning radio? Kayla: Is that a fanfare? Chris: I don't know. Kayla: What's a fanfare? Chris: I don't know. Just something. Kayla: No, we can't do a fanfare. But anyway, episode five. Good job, us. Thank you for listening to five episodes. Chris: How about a high five sound? Kayla: That was pretty good.

6:13 Chris: Not bad. So this one's gonna be long. Like, are we pretty much. Kayla: Yes, this one's gonna be long. I apologize in advance. Chris: Are we pretty much just saying, like, this is definitely gonna be a two parter? Kayla: I don't wanna say that up front because I talk really fast. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And maybe. I don't know. Maybe you're gonna be so blown away that you don't have any, like, banter. Chris: I have no banter. Well, we've already bantered, so I think the ship is blown. Kayla: Mind's gonna be blown. But I could potentially be looking at a two parter here. We'll see. Chris: Okay. Kayla: We'll see. It would be worthy of being a two parter. Chris: Okay, well, if it'll help it be a two parter, I wanted to mention that now that we are live, now that we're published, I have been discussing some of our episodes with. With some mutual acquaintances.

6:54 Kayla: Mutual. Chris: Mutual. Can we cut that? Probably not. Kayla: No, we can just start the sentence again. Chris: I've been discussing some of our actual live episodes with some mutual acquaintances. And one of them I was discussing the other day with the Irvine episode about. Cause that's the one that. So that'll give you guys an indication of how far ahead we are in creating our content is. We're just discussing the Irvine episode as being live right now as we record. Kayla: Episode so you're saying that we're not far ahead at all. Chris: Yeah, not far at all. Actually. By the time this comes out, it's gonna be like, not even anything. No. But I just wanted to mention. Cause he asked me, he said, who did? Kayla: Mutual acquaintance. Chris: This mutual acquaintance, he said, what was it that made you wanna do Irvine? What was the thing? It was actually a really good question. Cause I was like, yeah. What is it about Irvine that makes you go like, oh, yeah, that could be on the show. And I thought about it.

7:48 Kayla: Everything that we discussed in the episode. Chris: Yeah. So I smacked him and said, did you listen to the episode? Ass. But in the real world, what I did, I actually said, you know, honestly, I think it's the logo. Kayla: Oh, yeah. The logo is what sends it over the top. If it didn't have a logo. Chris: I think it's the logo. Kayla: Like, I think Donald Bren is definitely up there. But it's the logo. Chris: Yeah. Because there's. There's so many things that are just. Kayla: Like, you wouldn't know about the Irvine company. Chris: Beige. Okay. It's got, like, you know, a weird, reclusive billionaire who doesn't. But the logo is just like, I don't know. It's like, creep. It's creepy looking. Kayla: Yeah, it is creepy looking. Chris: And it's freaking everywhere. Kayla: Literally. Okay. Okay. Spoiler alert. If you're not caught up on Game of Thrones, brief spoiler, mini. Barely even a spoiler. But I'm about to mention Game of Thrones. Somebody on Instagram, when I posted the picture of the logo, somebody on Instagram said, that looks like, you know what I'm talking about. The end of that one episode of Game of Thrones. And it totally did.

8:49 Chris: It does. Kayla: It's creepy. Chris: Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah. It's not the most welcoming or benign looking. Yeah, it's not soothing. All right. Anyway, I just wanted a tangent about a previous episode. Kayla: All right. Chris: Because I thought that was interesting. When he asked me this question and the thing that I ended up answering. Kayla: Are you ready to start this episode? Chris: I was born ready. No, I've been ready for weeks because you've been talking about it. Kayla: I also. I told you. Okay, we're gonna start this way. I told you that for a moment, I briefly flirted with starting the episode by trying to implant a false memory in you. Chris: Oh, my God. I forgot about that. Yeah. Kayla: Unknowingly, I could be implanting false memory in you right now. Chris: You probably do it all the time.

9:29 Kayla: I do. I felt unethical about springing it on you. And so I told you about it already, but we're going to go ahead and do it anyway, so you can see how easy it would be to. Even though you're aware, you're gonna see how easy it is to, like, fuck with your memory. Chris: Well, I already think that your memory's fucked with because you don't remember going in the cell. Kayla: We never did that. Chris: We definitely did. Kayla: You're thinking of some other person. Chris: I might just take my. Maybe I take my mistress there. I don't know. Kayla: Yeah, I don't know. You should ask your. What? Sorry, what? Chris: That I couldn't stop. Kayla: You should have said, take my wife there, indicating I'm the mistress.

10:12 Chris: Right. Sorry. We can cut this whole bit. Kayla: I don't care. Chris: Continue, please. The false memory. Kayla: Let's go ahead and see how easy it is to implant a false memory. If you're ready. Chris: Okay. But we did talk about the Mandela thing, and, like, is this. That's kind of like. Kayla: This isn't really about Mandela. It's specifically about false memories. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Which. I think those are two different things. Chris: I'm game. Kayla: So let's conduct this little experiment. I'm going to present you with two memories from our early relationship. You're going to have to decide which one is real. And this only works because. Sorry. You have kind of not a great memory.

10:53 Chris: Wow. Kayla: You okay? You say it all the time, that your memory is not about myself. It's not as good as mine also. Chris: No, I don't. I don't remember saying that at all. Kayla: I have a tendency, and this is a tendency across all of my relationships, to remember stupid minutiae in a way that, like, other people don't because there's something wrong with me. I don't know. Chris: It's to win arguments. Kayla: Yeah, it's mostly to win arguments. So you're going to have to decide of these two memories that I'm going to talk to you about, which one is real and which one is fake, and hopefully this will demonstrate how powerful this whole process is. Chris: Okay. Kayla: For our listeners. I want to note that the general consensus among the credentialed, like, doctors and scientists, and those people implanted memories are very real and fairly easy to produce. Our memories don't work like cameras. Like, we're not taking photographs. It's more like we're stitching together bits and pieces to make a whole picture. So, like, it's probably very unlikely that you specifically remember a single day of high school. If you think back, it's going to be an amalgamation of every single day of high school, and your brain just kind of stitches it together to form a day, that kind of thing.

12:01 Chris: Sorry. I'm not saying anything. I'm literally. I'm just sitting here with my mouth agape because I'm like, what is this topic gonna be? I'm so psyched. Kayla: Sometimes our brains even improvise to fill in the gaps. I'm sure you've all experienced remembering an event differently from somebody else who experienced that same event. And, like. Like, you and I literally just now. Chris: And I had no idea this is what you were gonna talk about. Kayla: Yeah, that worked really well. Chris: That is weird. Kayla: So, memory is fucked up. In order to implant a false memory, all you need to do is come up with a story from the past, gather enough details without getting too complicated, and then you just gaslight the fuck out of someone. Like, there's even experiments where, like, the experimenter will drag the person's family into it and have the family be like, no, you don't remember.

12:42 Chris: That is messed up experimenting, but it lends legitimacy. So we're not doing that just for our listeners. I think most of our listeners know what gaslighting is, but for those that don't, it's basically trying to convince another person that their perceptions or memories of reality are fake, and furthermore, that they're crazy for thinking the wrong thing even though they think the right thing. Kayla: Right. That's gaslighting. Carl Sagan once said, memory can be contaminated. False memories can be implanted, even in minds that do not consider themselves vulnerable and uncritical. So, okay, back to our experiment. Here are the two memories. One is real, one is fake, and I'm going to describe them to you, and let's see how real I can make the fake one. So, number one, a couple years into our relationship, we tried to go paddle boating at, like, paddle boating at Santiago Oaks park. We went, but the boats weren't operational that day for some reason. So instead, we decided to feed the ducks, and they, like, went crazy.

13:44 Kayla: Like, there was this mob of hungry ducks, and we ended up feeling bad about it because later that day, we learned that bread is actually bad for ducks, and we'd, like, fed them a shit ton of bread. That's why they went crazy. Number two, a couple years into our relationship, we tried to get cronuts from this pop up truck back when the craze was still fresh. It was also still early in the food truck craze, so we had to do some deep googling to figure out where the truck would be like, we couldn't even. Like, there wasn't even a Twitter feed for this truck. And by the time we showed up and stood in the hour plus long line, they ended up running out of cronuts before we could get one. But we got ko two truck instead. So those are the two memories. Kayla: Now, before you try to figure out which one's real, which is fake, can you picture both of those things? Is it starting? Like, does it kind of feel like you could have experienced these things if I sat here and went, like, you really don't remember the cronut truck? Like, it was outside of a brewery? We stood in that line like, it kind of. Like, it got dark as were doing it, so. Or the paddle boats. Like, the paddle boats kind of looked like swans. It was a really sunny day.

14:46 Chris: Yeah. So I do remember the paddle boat day. I don't remember cronut truck. I remember us at some point trying to find cronuts, but I don't remember specifically going out and looking for a cronut truck. I know that there was, like, a time, I think, when. I mean, there must have been at least one time when we looked for some truck and couldn't find it and, like, wound up going to Koji. Cause Koji's awesome. But I don't remember cronut as truck. I remember cronut failure as, like, a failure of yelp or a failure of looking for a brick and mortar. So I'm gonna say that one's the fake. Kayla: So you're saying number two is fake and. Okay, so if you're saying number two is fake and number one is real, what do you remember about that day?

15:32 Chris: About number one? Kayla: Yeah. Like, do you remember feeling bad about the brand? Chris: I don't. I remember. Kayla: You ever, like, I literally googled it when we got home. Cause we talked about it in the car. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And then, because I didn't have. I didn't even have, like, a good phone that I could google off of. We had to, like, wait until went home. I think you still had your BlackBerry. Chris: Oh, God. Kayla: I didn't know how to use it. Chris: So there's another. Yeah. Oh, right. BlackBerry was a thing. There's another memory that was gone. Kayla: No. Chris: Yeah, I did have the BlackBerry for, like, the first couple years of our relationship. Right? Yeah. Maybe this was before we really were into, like, smartphone era.

16:12 Kayla: Like, okay, ask me any questions you want about either of these memories. I've got details. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I mean, I guess you've already picked, so, like, you don't really have. Chris: Well, I've already picked, but, I mean, I guess I could ask a question like that. Kayla: And you really think that you don't remember the Cronut track? Chris: I remember looking. I remember us being like, we gotta figure out where the Cronuts are being sold in Ladenhead. Kayla: It wasn't in LA. It was like, in. It was like we. It was like, in Fullerton. It was like were still living at my mom's. And, like, the Cronuts just became a thing. And they were only in New York, but there was going to be a pop up truck. And so we, like. I think I had Twitter. Yeah. Because I've had Twitter for, like, almost as long as our relationship. We couldn't find it on Twitter. We, like, did some deep ass googling and then the line was so long. So we just got Koji. It wasn't the first time we got Koji. It was like the 7th time.

17:03 Chris: I just don't remember us going. I remember failing at the cronut search. I don't remember getting into the line and having it be too long. Kayla: Okay. Chris: I feel like we would have just waited. Kayla: No, it wasn't that it was too long. It was that they ran out. We did wait. Oh, they ran out because it was like one of those situations where, like, they only had so many, and that's why we had to get Koji instead. Chris: I think I'm still calling fake on that one. Kayla: You're still calling fake? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Do you want me to reveal? Chris: Yeah, absolutely. Kayla: They're both fake. Chris: No, we definitely did the boat, the swan boat thing. Kayla: Did we? Chris: Yes. Didn't we, didn't we go to a place and we couldn't. Kayla: We might have, but we didn't do this. There was no boats not operating. I don't even think. I don't even know if San Diego Oaks park has paddle boating. There was no ducks. There was no googling.

17:54 Chris: I didn't remember the ducks. I didn't remember the ducks. Kayla: There was no BlackBerry. But do you see how all it took was me going, remember the BlackBerry? And you were willing to accept that. Chris: Right. And I started kind of talking through. Kayla: The, like, oh, also, we never failed at a cronut search. Chris: We didn't? Kayla: No. At least not that I remember. Chris: I thought we looked for cronuts at one point and, like, they weren't. Kayla: We might have briefly, but we. This. These things. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Did not happen. Chris: Did not happen. Kayla: These were fabricated. Well, because I just wanted to demonstrate. It's so easy to do this.

18:34 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: If I had my sister here being like, yeah, you don't remember? Like, went to trouble if you. Chris: Had, like, a verifying third party that I trusted. Sure. Kayla: Like, you can lead somebody to any conclusion. Chris: This freakin deaky, man. I don't know if I like that. Kayla: Sorry, I. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's still slightly unethical. This was a super loosey goosey experiment, and obviously we didn't, like, you know, you're not having a false memory. It just kind of, oh, God. She was showing, like, how cloudy this can get. Especially because, like, yeah, we've definitely. We have gone paddleboating before. We have stood in long, like, pop up truck lines. Chris: Sure. So it's easy for me to. Kayla: Easy for the brain to start stitching together. It doesn't. You know, this isn't perfectly illustrating how scary easy it is, but, like, we're just really good at convincing ourselves, especially when the only evidence we have is just our memory, and we kind of go like, well, if I remember it happened.

19:31 Chris: Right, right. It's like, if you can't trust your memory, then what can you trust from your own experience? Kayla: Like, literally on my other podcast that I had my sister on, she and I were talking about some memories, and I remembered an event as only having, like, I still remember it this way. It was just me, my mom, me, my dad, and my sister. My mom was there. My mom literally texted me, was like, no, I was there. I have. If you. If somebody came into this room right now and put a gun to my head and was like, what was your mom doing during this memory? I could not tell you because it's a memory from when I was five, and I have convinced myself that she was not there.

20:13 Chris: That's so weird. Kayla: She was there. Chris: That's super weird. Kayla: Like, that's what our brains do. They just. Chris: This is, like, my favorite episode of Rick and Morty. Kayla: Oh, the mister poopy butthole spoilers. Chris: Yeah. Some of our listeners won't get that. That's okay. Kayla: So just go ahead and hold on to this whole discussion as we officially delve into our topic for today, because today I'm going to be talking about the Internet icon teal swan. Chris: Oh, yes. Kayla: Okay. Okay. You, Chris, are somewhat familiar with teal swan. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: It's entirely possible that some of our listeners are as well. But either way, I know one is. Let's. I know two are. Let's go back to the beginning and let's just really dig into who teal Swan is. And I'm going to say again for our listeners. This topic is crazy. Like, this topic is huge.

21:13 Chris: I had no idea how huge it was. Like, I thought this was just some, like, random. I'm like, niche. Kayla: No. And I have 17 pages of notes, I think, and I'm leaving out. So. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Much. It's really hard to know where to start because like everything else, this is a tangled fucking web. But, like, times ten. So just bear with me. And right up front, I want to put up a big, huge, fat, screaming trigger warning and content warning. We're going to be talking about some really heavy topics. We're going to be talking about suicide and child abuse and sexual abuse. Like some truly fucked up stuff. It's fascinating. But if those topics aren't kosher for you, consider this a warning.

21:59 Chris: Sorry, do I get deleted? Kayla: No, you have to sit here. Chris: No. Kayla: Before I get too far, I also want to credit all of my sources upfront because, like, my memory, the following is all just stitched together from pieces of things that I read and listen to. So everything that follows comes from several places. First, the Gateway podcast, hosted by Jennings Brown from Gizmodo. The gateway. I highly recommend it. It's a six part podcast that deep dives into teal swan her teachings and focuses specifically on her relationship to suicidal ideation. Chris: That's right. The gateway is about her thing. Kayla: I have to listen to it. Chris: Yeah, I'm definitely gonna listen to it. Kayla: Oh, my God. Okay. I also listened to several episodes of the oh no, Ross and Carrie podcast on maximum fun. Oh, no. Ross and Carrie investigate pseudoscience and new age claims. And they have not one, not two, but they have three episodes about Teal Swan. Two are, it's a two parter of when they went to one of her workshops. And the third is they talked to Jennings Brown.

22:55 Chris: Wow. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: I mean, that's the cool part. That's sort of like their schtick, which I think is super cool, is that they do the thing. Kayla: Right, that they went to her workshop. Yeah. And that'll mean more once our listeners have been informed about missing the workshop. I also draw a lot directly from the source, Teal's website, her social media, including her Facebook pages and Facebook groups and Twitter groups and YouTube. And as always, Wikipedia was a huge help and allowed me to tap into multiple news articles and blog posts written about Teal and everything else we're about touch on. I also. This is kind of a bummer. I also reached out to former students of Teal's to try and get direct interviews. But as of this recording. I have not heard back from anyone.

23:35 Chris: So we can always have a sequel if you have 17 pages of notes. Kayla: Oh, man. Yeah. So like I mentioned, I had a hard time knowing where to start with this, so I went ahead and structured my notes around our six cult criterion criteria. Six cult criteria. Chris: Pluralist criteria. Kayla: Thank you, criteria. We're going to kind of touch on each one as we go through, and hopefully that makes our evaluation at the end a little bit easier. And hopefully. Hopefully it gave some semblance of structure to my notes. But again, this is a huge fucking topic. Chris: Yeah. And by the way, I like the idea of structuring it around the criteria. Kayla: It was harder than I thought.

24:15 Chris: Okay, well, I still think it's a good idea. Kayla: So let's go. Number one, the presence of a charismatic leader. Chris: Mm. Mm. Kayla: Teal Swan is a spiritual teacher who has leveraged social media and Internet virality to make a name for herself in new age circles. Her proponents have nicknamed her the spiritual catalyst. Teal Swan claims to have extrasensory abilities, including clairvoyance and clairaudience, but these are the least of her claims. She also says she possesses divine spiritual knowledge in some pretty profound ways. Like, she claims she has access to the Akashic records. Have you ever heard of the Akashic records? Chris: No.

24:56 Kayla: First of all, isn't that the coolest fucking sound? Chris: Yeah, that sounds like really metal. Kayla: The Akashic records. I had never heard of them before. Chris: No. Kayla: Until I started doing this research. It's basically a compendium of all human events, thoughts, words, emotions, and intents ever to have occurred in the past, present, or future. Okay, so it's just a record that exists outside of time and space. Chris: Got it. Kayla: Of everything that's ever happened. Chris: It's like the divine stenographer. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Or that watcher character from Marvel. Kayla: Is it marvel, or is it DC? Chris: I think they both have them. Kayla: Who's the one that has cosmic armor? Superman. That's DC. Chris: Oh, that's DC. Yeah. Kayla: It's like whoever was in charge of cosmic armor. Superman.

25:38 Chris: Right. Kayla: The Akashic records are believed by theosophists to be encoded in a non physical plane of existence known as. Known as the etheric plane. So Teal claims that she has access to this and basically knows everything or has access to knowing everything. She can read auras. She calls herself a medical savanthood. She knows what has happened to you in past lives. She knows what memories you're oppressing. She knows you better than you know yourself. Chris: Okay, so how much are these workshops. Cause. And where are they? Kayla: Her synchronicity workshops? Chris: Yeah, these. Kayla: Some she travels around, man. But we'll get into it. Chris: Okay. Cause, like, I kind of want to go to one if she knows all this stuff. Can I ask you. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Is Teal Swan her real name? Kayla: We'll get into it.

26:18 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Her spiritual teachings are all based around this idea that teal was born with the inherent ability to access deep spiritual knowledge. And she has honed that ability over the years into a teachable philosophy. She began creating YouTube videos to share her knowledge, and her spiritual empire grew from there. So that's just a quick overview. Like, okay, so she started very quick overview. She didn't. She started IRL, but quickly. Chris: But she grew on YouTube. Kayla: Grew on YouTube. Yes. So quick overview. Chris: Oh, YouTube. Kayla: It goes much deeper than that because so far, I mean, this just kind of sounds like, while it's crazy, it's still run of the mill new age guru right now. Sure. Chris: Yeah. I mean, we've heard this stuff before. Kayla: Wrong. So I've known about Teal Swan and her following for a few years. So have you. And our discovery of her is, you know, it's a short story, so I'm just gonna. You've know all this. I'm just gonna say it. Back in 2016, a friend of mine went to his 15 year high school reunion and then went out to eat with some folks he had been friends with back in the day. Of course, questions were asked, like, you know, what are you up to now? People were catching up. And when our friend asked a certain individual, let's call him Alex, when our friend asked Alex, hey, what are you up to? What do you do? What do you work on? My friend learned a whole lot more than he expected. Should I give our friend a fake name, too?

27:42 Chris: I don't know, but I think it's the same friend that we talked to about the Irvine logo. Kayla: Yeah, yeah, it's that friend. What are we gonna call him? Chris: Steve. Kayla: So Steve asked Alex. I don't know if this makes it easy. Chris: I can't wait to ask Steve what he thinks of Steve. Kayla: Turns out Alex was an out and proud Indigo child. And if you haven't heard of the concept of Indigo children, they're basically this new age idea that there are some children who are special in some way and have a deeper connection to spirituality than the rest of us. And they are also, like, are necessary guides in helping us evolve as a species to a higher level of consciousness. Chris: I've watched enough anime to know that some people are just born special. Kayla: Exactly. Indigo children are the chosen ones. They became a popular concept in the nineties and have just grown since then. There's books, there's movies, there's conferences. You name it, indigo children are there. They're supposed to be creative and empathetic. And usually it's just the parents are either desperately wanting their child to be special, or the parents can't handle the fact that maybe their kid has some special needs that they should be tending to.

28:46 Chris: I don't know. Oh, so there's some harm here and that, like, maybe some kids are not getting care they need. Kayla: We're not getting into Indigo children. Chris: Oh, boy. Kayla: That's a whole other thing. This is a gateway into this. Chris: Oh, jeez. Kayla: So anyway, Alex tells our friend all about being an Indigo child, and he then informs our friend as to what he does for work. I think this was 2016. Steve, if you're listening, correct us if it's not. Two years ago, back in 2016, Alex was one of Teal Swan's assistants and traveled around with her to various conferences and speaking engagements. Chris: This was one of her assistants. Kayla: I mean, I don't know if she had multiple assistants at the time, but she has. She currently has an entourage and has employees and has, like, has.

29:29 Chris: Yeah, you gotta have an entourage. Yeah. Kayla: So Alex was working for her, and this was a little bit before she blew up into the figure she is today, but she still had a following back then. Like, it. Remember, we looked at. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: This is not a false memory you and I looked into. Chris: Thanks. Thanks for specifying. Kayla: Going to one of her speaking events in San Diego. Chris: Oh, that's right. Kayla: And it was, like, a little bit too much money for us to, like, you know. Chris: Right. To justify. Kayla: Yeah, we absolutely would do it now, but I bet it's way more expensive right now. Chris: It's. Yeah, it's keeping ahead of the cost curve. It's a shame. Kayla: The Steve's encounter was told, I think it was told to my sister and then told to me. So once I heard about this, I immediately Google searched this person. I was like, yeah, teal, you were.

30:11 Chris: Obsessed for a bit. Kayla: And that's how I happened upon Teal's website. And I think that I just sat there and read to you for a long time what her situation was. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: Because, like, the website at the time was a hot mess. Like, now it's glossy and produced and very professional. Chris: Really? Kayla: Yeah. Oh, it's gorgeous now. Chris: No way. Maybe she uses squarespace. Kayla: I think she has a person. Like, she probably has a team, right? Chris: But I'm trying to get so, like, we can eventually make money off of squarespace. Kayla: Squarespace. You should get in with teal swan, not us. She's got the money. Chris: Yeah, that's. Yeah. Kayla: And the following. So, her bio. Do you remember when I read to you her bio or read to you?

30:55 Chris: So, do I remember the exact details of the bio? Kayla: No, but you remember how I remember that? Chris: It's like, an unholy, like, insane just. I did not believe what you were telling me. Yes, I do remember that. Kayla: So it's no longer like that on her site? Chris: Oh. Kayla: What? It's way more like a Tony Robbins. Almost like a. Oh, wow. It's more like that. Chris: Okay. So she's, like, softening her edges for appeal to the masses because she knows that'll make her bucks. Kayla: But either way, no matter the iteration, her bio is bananas. Chris: Wait, so, like, I don't want to spoil bio stuff. If you're gonna talk about it, I'm. Kayla: Gonna talk heavily about it. Chris: Okay. All right. So, it's gonna say there's. Yeah, there's some key pieces to that bio.

31:37 Kayla: Oh, yeah. Chris: Sad if we didn't mention. Kayla: And that's actually. That's something that there are some things that. Spoiler alert for the Gateway podcast. Don't listen this part. If you're gonna listen the podcast. Chris: Yes. Don't listen to our podcast. Go listen to the other podcast. Kayla: There are some things that Jennings, Brown, and Gizmodo very purposefully left out. Like, said, here's something that we're leaving out because it's too horrible to talk about. We're gonna talk about some of those things. Chris: Not on culture, just weird. On culture, just weird. We get into it. Kayla: I mean, they get into it as well, but I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's get into her backstory.

32:19 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Because her backstory is truly what makes Teal's brand exactly what it is. Chris: Okay. So, are we getting into her, like, real, true backstory or her. What she says is her backstory? Kayla: We are getting into the backstory that has been presented by her and her followers on the Internet. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And so, if you didn't guess this, if you didn't glean this from Chris's question, there is a little bit of confusion here over what facts are facts, what pieces of the story are pieces of the story. We'll talk about it. Teal Swan was born Mary Teal Bosworth in Santa Fe, New Mexico, in 1984. Teal Swan is her real name.

33:05 Chris: Where's the swan go from a marriage? Kayla: Oh, at some point. So Teal Swan is not a fake name. Chris: I'll be damned. Kayla: Yeah. She was born with extrasensory capabilities, like we mentioned. Clairvoyance, ability to manipulate electromagnetic fields, sensing auras, all of the above. Her parents didn't really know what to do with her and how to help her manage these abilities. And unfortunately, the presence of these overwhelming abilities caused Teal to become very mentally ill at a young age and very suicidal at a very young age because it's like you don't know how to handle that as a kid, and no one around you knows how to handle that. And unfortunately, it led to multiple suicide attempts and a lot of suicidal ideation that she still manages today. When she was a child, her parents eventually, I think they were like wilderness workers, they moved her family to a small religious town in Utah.

33:54 Kayla: And of course, Teal was immediately frowned upon by the community due to her abilities. Like, it was a very mormon town, and Teal's, like little psychic running around. Chris: Yeah, Mormons and Jedis don't mix. Kayla: Doesn't really go together. Frightened by her powers, her suicidal ideation, and the community hostility her parents eventually allowed to their family friend Doc, who is a vet, spiritual healer. He healed the animals with like, energy healing. Chris: Oh, God. Oh, so, okay, so he might have. Kayla: Done, like, he might have done like, actual, like, physical work on them, but he also did energy healing on them.

34:34 Chris: Poor doggies. Kayla: So, like, for. It was for like livestock, like cows. Chris: Oh, I eat them. That's fine. Kayla: Yeah, I eat doggies too. No. So doc was a family friend and he basically was like, oh, I know all about this spiritual stuff. Let mentor teal. I'll help. I'll help the situation. Chris: Did he have a DeLorean? Kayla: I think he just had horses. Chris: I don't know. Kayla: He had to get a pickup truck. Oh, I think he had a pickup truck. And so her parents said, yes, please mentor our troubled child. And that's how young teal was inducted into the satanic cult that would ritualistically torture her for the next 13 years. Chris: Yeah, this is. I remember this bit. Yeah.

35:19 Kayla: It's really, really important that we point out that child abuse is an underreported problem. And it's so important to believe survivors. And even if, like, you and I giggle, we're not making light of that topic. Chris: Absolutely. Yeah. Especially, like, if that's something you've experienced, like, we're taking it super seriously. And I agree. Yeah. It's important to believe survivors because that doesn't happen enough. Kayla: On the other hand. Teal's story about the satanic cult doesn't quite add up in some pretty alarming ways. Chris: Right. Kayla: We're gonna talk a lot about it. So I'm gonna be questioning her claims. I don't, you know, I don't doubt that teal experienced trauma in her childhood. Like, it sounds like she did have some really horrible shit going on. I do question that Thiel specifically encountered satanic ritual abuse as the scientific consensus is that there is no evidence that any sort of satanic ritual abuse has ever occurred in the United States.

36:14 Chris: Right. Kayla: Like, there are people who study this phenomenon and it's like, nah, it's not really a thing. Chris: Right. Kayla: The idea that children flying prey to satanic ritual abuse, we'll just call it sra because it's easier. It was basically a rumor that got blown into mass hysteria in the eighties and the nineties during satanic panic. Chris: Panic. Yep. Kayla: And. Yeah, well, I keep saying this, but we're gonna talk about that more later. Chris: Oh, man. Kayla: I'm also going to describe some of the abuse claims like I mentioned. And they're very upsetting. Chris: Yeah, they're disturbing. So just hold onto your butts or change the channel. Kayla: Now when I did my initial google search and reading of her bio, I was blown away. The torture she described was intense, for lack of a better word. And this is some of the stuff that I described to you. According to her, at the hands of her family friend Doc and the satanic cult, teal was used to lure other children into the cult's clutches. Like, hey, there's a kid. So she was also made to then like, watch the torture that was done upon those kids or the murder that was done to those kids. Because I think the reason why she wasn't like a victim of murder was because she had these like, psychic powers. So the satanic cult was like, we want to keep you around.

37:26 Chris: Right? I gotta keep you around so we can use your powers to lure. Kayla: Yeah. Her powers were exploited for their gain. She also claims horrific sexual abuse. She even makes the disturbing claim. This is something that comes up over and over. If you start to get into like, teal swan detractors, this is a specific detail that comes up often. She claims that one of the ways in which she was tortured was that she would be sewn into corpses. Chris: Yeah, I missed. This is the thing that I remember. Kayla: And left to just like wait for hours. And that's just not physically possible, right. Even for a six year old child. Like, it's not physically possible, right?

38:08 Chris: Right. Kayla: Like, I guess you could make a skin suit, but to physically put a person into a corpse, like, it's not a tauntaun. Chris: There's stuff already there. Kayla: It doesn't work. It's disturbing to think about, though. Chris: Like, maybe it was to keep her warm at night. Kayla: I think that she even said it was in a volcanic tunnel or something. I don't know. Chris: Yeah, I remember that bit, too. Kayla: Right, okay, so I'm not crazy. Chris: Yeah, I remember volcanic tunnel. Kayla: It's, like, hard to find the exact bio that I read. Chris: Oh, wow. Kayla: Years ago. Chris: The two bits that I really have a vivid memory of are the being sewn into corpses. Kayla: Right. Chris: And the volcanic tunnels piece. Kayla: I'm glad that I didn't make that up. She claims she witnessed the murder of over a dozen children. She claims Doc was a sociopath with multiple personalities. She claims doc engineered the ability to systematically gain access to teal. Like, he conned her school into letting him pick her up from classes early. He befriended her parents, wasn't manipulating them. He made teal think that she was a demon and that he was her real father, and that if anyone found out, she would be taken away from her family. The abuse she suffered fueled what her parents and doctors assumed were signs of mental illness. So, like, the more withdrawn and anxious and depressed she became, the more her parents felt she needed Doc's help, the more access he would be granted to her.

39:24 Kayla: And the worse, you know, the worse and worse the abuse got, which fueled the cycle. So it's like she was in this kind of cycle of, like, getting abused, having emotional fallout from that, people thinking that was mental illness, and needing to spend more time with her abuser. Chris: Right. That makes sense. I mean, so how much of this do we think is true, or do the experts think is true? Like. Like you said, clearly she was not having a good time as a kid. Did Doc exist? Am I preempting? Kayla: You're preempting a little bit. Doc exists. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Doc is actually spoken to on the Gateway podcast. Chris: Oh, my God. I gotta listen. Kayla: You have to listen. It's. Chris: Oh, my God.

40:05 Kayla: I know. I'm like. There's also parts of this from, like, I don't want to spoil that podcast. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Be a doc. Doc does existential. I don't think any of this happened. Chris: Okay? Kayla: Personally, I think. I definitely think it's. I don't want to, like. You know, I definitely think it's possible that she was abused, maybe by this person. I don't know, but I don't believe in satanic ritual abuse. Chris: Yeah. No, for everything I've heard. Yeah, that's. Kayla: I also don't believe you can sew somebody into a court. Chris: Right. Right. No, I don't think that those specific things exist, but, like, it's. It seems. It seems like it's possible that she was abused in some form or fashion. Kayla: Continuing on with her claims, she was drugged often. She was forced to witness cannibalism, forced to have sex with corpses, forced to carve satanic symbols into dead bodies. She was forced to be photographed for child pornography. She was sold to men for sex. Eventually, when she got older. Dog.

40:54 Chris: This is all on her website. Kayla: This is not on her website anymore. This is all accessed via the Wayback machine and teal Swan, watchdog website. Chris: Got it. So the Wayback machine, in case you're not sure, so what it is basically an Internet archive. So there's this whole group that's basically dedicated to archiving websites that no longer appear online, that are just have been taken down or don't exist anymore. And you can access them via the wayback machine and. Kayla: Yeah, so all of this is just stuff that she's talked about, stuff that is talked about on other podcasts, stuff that her followers talk about, and things that have appeared in books that she's written or in previous bios that she's had on the Internet.

41:35 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Eventually, when she got older, doc got her into legit modeling. She was a legit model for a while, which is true, but this I have not been able to find, again, this particular claim. But tell me if you remember this. When I originally read her bio, she claimed to have once been a Playboy model. Chris: I don't quite recall that. I think I recall the. I recall the model bit. Kayla: Right? I couldn't find the Playboy bit anywhere, but I'm, like, 99% sure it rings a bell. There was a claim she was never a Playboy model. She's gorgeous, but she was never a Playboy model. You can verify that, right? Chris: That's verifiable. Kayla: She became a competitive skier. That's real. That she was a competitive skier.

42:16 Chris: Yeah, you know, competitive skier. Let's throw that in there from left field. Kayla: Then when she was 19, she managed to escape the cult by finding a savior named Blake. Blake was another trouble teen who showed teal kindness and understanding, and that kind of started to unravel her emotional ties to the abusive cult. And she. This is. You can read a lot about this on the Internet. This is a very, like, loosey goosey recounting of these events. They're very detailed events. But she met this guy named Blake. Blake was nice to her, started to unravel the ties, and then she ran away, stayed with Blake, and the two of them have lived together ever since. For 15 years they have been together. He works for her. They had a romantic relationship. The romantic relationship ceased. They still live and work together. I forget if they were ever married. But as I've mentioned before, teal has been married.

43:02 Kayla: She's been married and divorced four times. I don't know if Blake's one of them. I forget somewhere. After escaping the satanic cult in 19, Thiel started therapy with a therapist named Doctor Barbara Snow. Thiel was still suicidal, suffering from mental illness as well as the trauma and PTSD from the abuse. So I'm hella glad that she started going to therapy, but unfortunately, Doctor Barbara Snow is a particularly controversial therapist and may ultimately be responsible. This is my your take. She may ultimately be responsible for who teal Swan is today. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: Before we continue, you already answered this question. You know what satanic panic is? Chris: Yeah.

43:43 Kayla: Do you remember it at all? Chris: I was too young and so, I mean, I was born in the eighties. Kayla: So, like, satanic racial abuse is never something you were afraid of as a kid. Chris: No, I mean, like, I played the gathering and like, there was a one card that had a pentagram on it and then like, it got removed. Kayla: Really? Chris: Yeah, yeah. And it was like, in the background, you know, this, we'll probably cut this because it's like super obscure and nerdy, but it was this card called unholy strength. And it was a picture of this person kind of going like with their arms out. And then it had a little pentagram behind it kind of being like, oh, unholy. And you're gaining strength from this, like, dark source. Kayla: Right. Chris: And so then the next set, they removed the pentagram. So then it was like, the card was unholy strength and it was just a person going like this, and it was like, that doesn't make any sense.

44:30 Kayla: All right, so you know what satanic panic is? Chris: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Kayla: But I'm gonna go ahead and talk about it in like, its historical roots. Cause it's. We could do an entire other, like, podcast about that. Chris: Sure. Kayla: So let's touch about it a little bit. Satanic panic was a moral panic that spread throughout the United States in the 1980s and nineties. The entire nation became convinced and afraid that satanic cults were ritualistically abducting, abusing, torturing, and in some cases murdering innocents, particularly children. As part of their satanic worship. It was like the news was all over it, the media was all over it. Like, Geraldo Rivera talked about it, Oprah talked about it, like evening News was always talking about it. And it is generally considered to have started with the publication of the book Michelle remembers. Have you ever heard of Michelle remembers?

45:16 Chris: No, I haven't. I'm trying to think if it rings a bell, but I don't. Kayla: It could be a false memory anyway. Chris: I mean, yeah, the number of times I've said ring a bell in this episode after we started with false memory implanting, kind of freaks me out. Kayla: Fucked up. So Michelle remembers was co written by canadian psychiatrist Lawrence Pazder and his patient and eventual wife, Michelle Smith. Published in 1980, the book became a bestseller and introduced to the world the idea that a child could be abducted by a satanic cult, undergo ritualistic abuse, and be so traumatized that they would block the memories only to have them resurface through intensive therapy years later. The idea of recovered memories is closely tied to satanic panic, and recovered memories feature heavily in Teal's teachings. I see. She's claimed at different times that either she's recovered her own memories of SRa through therapy, or she has claimed girl kind of contradicts herself sometimes.

46:16 Chris: Here's one of the ways surprising. Kayla: She also claims has claimed at other times she always remembered the abuse, but was finally able to process it through therapy with Doctor Snow. Chris: Right. Okay. Kayla: I need to point out here that while, again, I'm not intending to question abuse victims. Michelle remembers has been discredited by multiple investigations which found no corroborating evidence of the book's events and that a lot of the events in the books were highly improbable, if not impossible. Chris: Okay. Kayla: But that didn't stop the book from catching, like, wildfire. Everyone was obsessed with satanic panic. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And there was like, a bunch of. Chris: Demons out of the bottle, so to speak. Kayla: There were a bunch of other events that happened at the time that I'm gonna talk about. Maybe we'll cut them out. I don't know, but they're really interesting, and I wanted to talk to you about them anyway.

47:03 Chris: Mm. Is one of them d and d related? No, that was like a whole thing, man, like that. Kayla: Oh, people thought that was satanic. Chris: Yeah, that was really. Yeah, people. That's like, it had. It took a while, actually, for dungeons and dragons to shake that interesting reputation as being like, ooh, isn't that bad? Isn't it satanic? Yeah, they thought people would, like, go play in sewers and pretend like they were Satan and then it somehow be a gateway into sataning or something. Kayla: Well, we're gonna talk about, like, what were talking about way worse. It's gonna make you really sad. Chris: Great. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Awesome. Okay, this is like the high hurdle episode, everyone. Like, if you can get past this one, then you're with us for the long haul. We really appreciate it.

47:45 Kayla: Satanic panic was also fueled by the McMartin preschool trial. Have you ever heard of this? Chris: I have never heard of that. Kayla: During the eighties, at the height of this panic, there was apparently, I just learned this. I didn't know this. There was a simultaneous panic happening at the same time. There was satanic panic, and there was also the daycare sex abuse hysteria. Chris: Okay. It was a very panicked time, apparently. Kayla: Like, so there was, everybody was worried that their kids were getting molested at daycare. And I was like, why was that a thing all of a sudden? And it's because in, like, the seventies and eighties, more and more and more women were joining the workforce, and so scores of families were entrusting their children to daycare.

48:27 Chris: Right. This was like a new thing and. Yeah. Kayla: Yeah. So it probably had to do with that. Chris: Fascinating. Kayla: There were multiple instances of allegations being brought against daycare and elementary school workers molesting and abusing children. Most of these allegations were untrue, even when people were convicted. Like, for example, there was the Kern county child abuse case, and that resulted in 36 convictions, with daycare employees spending years behind bars before all of their convictions were overturned. Chris: Jeez, I just. Man, the false convictions is so shitty because then it doesn't just hurt the person that was falsely accused, it also makes it harder for victims in the future. It's horrible. Kayla: The McMartin preschool trial, though, is the most high profile case of the time. Long story short, again, it's a long story if we're making it short. In 1983, Judy Johnson, the mother of a child attending McMartin preschool in Manhattan Beach, California, 15 minutes down the road from us, she accused her ex husband and McMartin teacher of sexually abusing their son. She went on to make several more accusations, like the teachers having sexual encounters with animals, as well as having.

49:32 Chris: Good Lord. Kayla: As well as having supernatural powers. Like, I think she said, like, my husband can fly. So I'm like, why were your accusations taken seriously? Chris: Yeah. If you could fly, though, like, why would you spend your time boinking sheep? Kayla: Because Satan wants you to. Chris: Oh, I guess it's me. Kayla: Maybe it's all related after the accusation, the police did a really dumb thing and they sent. This is like, acknowledged as a dumb thing. They sent a form letter to the parents, to the 200 parents at the school, explaining that their children may have been victims of sexual abuse and encouraged them to question their children about it. So several hundred children were then interviewed by officials, and that led to it.

50:13 Chris: Poor kids. Kayla: I know. That led to a string of extremely disturbing claims of abuse, torture, witchcraft, and just a bunch of crazy shit that didn't happen. Like tunnels. Chris: So the kids were saying, like, yeah, this totally happened. Kayla: Like, there was tunnels under the school. Like, I think. Did I talk about it? Chris: Wait, why, though? Like, why? Kayla: I mean, there's like, tunnels under the school. There was like, they went on hot air balloons. There was like, body's getting eaten. I'll tell you, kids have imagined. Okay, so arrests and pretrial ran from 1984 to 1987. The trial ran from 1987 to 1990. And after six years, no convictions were obtained and all charges were dropped. Because none of this happened. It was, at the time, the longest and most expensive criminal trial in american history.

50:58 Chris: Whoa. Kayla: Later research indicated that the questioning of the children had been extremely suggestive and leading. Chris: Oh, they dassied them. Kayla: And children. Yeah, children are highly suggestible. Like Randy Dassey. Chris: Right. Kayla: So this made people go like, okay. The memories that they had were not actually memories, they were imagination. Like, they were imaginary stories that were influenced by the investigators. Chris: Right, right. Yep. Kayla: Many others believe these children were experiencing false memory syndrome and that the questioning was leading them to uncovering repressed memories. So some people were like, no, no. This definitely happened. These kids are just. They blocked out the memories, motivated researchers. Now they're remembering them. But it's like we talked about.

51:41 Chris: How do you disprove that? Kayla: False fucking memories are really easy to implant, especially in a kid. Chris: Right, of course. Yeah. Right. Kayla: Also important, the mother who originally reported Judy Johnson was later diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia. Chris: Ooh. Kayla: And died from suicide before the trial began. Chris: Oh, God. Kayla: So this entire trial was predicated, probably by a woman's mental illness, and it led to people being dragged through court for years and years and years. Chris: Yeah. And, like, experiences for hundreds of kids and apparently, like, influencing, like, a whole country. Kayla: Yeah, yeah. Chris: Jeez. Kayla: So that now brings us back to doctor Barbara Snow. When Thiel began seeing doctor Barbara Snow in the early two thousands, doctor Snow encouraged her to go to the police with her claims of abuse from DoC and the satanic cult.

52:34 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Thiel did, and the investigation was opened and absolutely no evidence was found of these events. And the entire thing came to a halt when in 2008, doctor Snow was put on probation for having, quote, planted false memories of satanic abuse in patients. Yep. Chris: What? Kayla: Apparently, back in the eighties, doctor Snow was at the center of several allegations in the SRA. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Her accusations led to children being taken away from their parents. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: After she reported abuse that never happened, the families were eventually reunited. Chris: This person is the demon. Kayla: Yeah. Like, her therapy, quote unquote, led to over 40 accusations against other adults in the Salt Lake city area, including some of her supporters. Like, people who were like, yeah. Doctor Barbara Snow. And then she turned on them.

53:24 Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: It's worth noting that this person's evil. It's worth noting that almost all of the people that were accused were Mormon. And yes, it's in a place where there's a higher presence of Mormons, but also, I don't know, is there some prejudice against Mormons going on? Chris: I mean, people went to jail because of her claims. Yeah. I mean, my understanding is that Mormons do face prejudice. Kayla: Right. Chris: Like, if they're facing prejudice in salt Lake, that's. That's a little crazy. Cause that's like their home base. Kayla: But if it's this lady who maybe she's got some crazy agenda against them, and if she's claiming it could be. Chris: Her prejudice, that's not like, selectively picking. Kayla: Yeah, I don't know. It's just there's a. She accused a bunch of Mormons of being satanists. Like. Like, people were put on sex offender registries.

54:11 Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Because of this. Like, I can't. I can't say that everybody wasn't an abuser, but I can confidently say that doctor Snowden actively sought, consciously or unconsciously, to influence the children she spoke to remember or actually imagine graphic abuse at the hands of Satanists. Chris: It's like one of the worst things I can imagine doing. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: It's like implanting memories of torture into. Kayla: Children and then have them taken away from their families. Chris: I'm having a hard time thinking of anything worse than that. Kayla: Yeah, it's pretty bad. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Investigators eventually discovered she was using suggestive questioning by feeding her, like, false info that, like, then later showed up in the memories of these children. So, like, shit that these kids wouldn't have known. They only told it to doctor Snow, and then that info showed up in their memories.

55:04 Chris: Right. Kayla: So she was feeding them this info. Chris: Right. Right. Kayla: There's a lot of other crazy shit that doctor snow got up to. Like, I'll link to it. Like, she's a crazy person, but we should all know that this woman is still practicing. Chris: Oh. Kayla: Oh, cool. Chris: She. Kayla: I need to restate. Chris: Should be ooble edded. No, she's still practicing, but instead she's still practicing. Well, it's 2019, so I guess that doesn't surprise me. Jesus. Kayla: Let's reiterate that the idea of false memory recovery is pseudoscience. Like, everything that this woman was preaching is. The scientific consensus is that there's no such thing as our mem, as our minds blocking memories and then recovering them later.

55:48 Chris: Right. And, like, that's pseudoscience. But implanting memories, like, the acting false. Kayla: Memory, that's what it is real science. Yes. Real science is if you have a memory that, like, comes out of nowhere, it's probably because it got suggested to you. Chris: Right? Kayla: Just memory doesn't work that way. Chris: Right. Kayla: And this is the treatment that Teal swan underwent that led her to become the spiritual guru air quo today. Chris: Treatment. Air quote, treatment. Kayla: Like, a lot of people are like, oh, yeah, Teal. I believe in Teal because she's been through the worst of what humankind could ever go through. So if she can get through it, so can I. Mm. Chris: Part of the appeal. Kayla: Yeah. Much of Teal's teachings, like I said, have to do with uncovering repressed memories. And many of her followers come away from her spiritual guidance having uncovered memories of intense abuse as children, usually at the hands of their parents.

56:40 Chris: Oh. Kayla: She strongly believes in the concept of repressed memories and strongly believes that so many of us have unremembered trauma in our childhoods, and that leads us to have emotional and spiritual crises as adults. And this is, like I said, this is a huge part of why she has a following at all. People go through horrible shit, have been abused, have PTSD, have mental illness, have been suicidal, and they can all relate to her because she's like, I've been through this shit too, guys. Like, I was in a corpse, right? And she came away from it enlightened. So it's like, if teal can go through that and come out enlightened, and so can I, then, like, yeah, I'm gonna follow that fucking person, right? Chris: Right. So can I actually, can I back up? So you're saying that block memory blocking is, like, not even a thing. So, like, if you get abused, like, it legit happens, and, like, there's. There's no such thing as, like, blocking that memory and, like, not remembering it?

57:30 Kayla: I don't think so. And like, I. Chris: Because that is surprising to me. That would be a. I think it's. Kayla: A lot more complicated. Like, it's way more complicated than, like, yes. No, like, I don't believe in repressed memories. I believe in repressed emotions. Like, I've experienced that. But if you'll remember that time when I was like, oh, shit, I'm experiencing an emotion that I've been repressing for 16 years. It wasn't that I'm repressing a memory. I had the memory. I knew what happened. It was literally, oh, I haven't felt this emotion before. And that's different. Chris: Process the memory. Kayla: That's a different thing. And so I think that most people.

58:11 Chris: But what you're saying, though, is that according to science, according to medical science. Kayla: Memory blocking's not a thing. Chris: Memory blocking is not a thing. So there's no, like, there's no such thing as, like, something happened. I block memory of it and then I can re access it. Kayla: The scientific consensus is that's not a thing. There's not. Chris: Wow. Okay. I had. Kayla: There's not. There's no evidence for it, and there's only evidence disproving it. Chris: I have. I did not know that. Interesting. Kayla: Feel free to Google. But that is. Chris: No, I'm not. I'm just. Kayla: No, I'm just saying, like, that's. That is the conclusion that I have reached. So an hour and four minutes in. That's a general overview. Chris: Next time on cult or just weird abuse. Kayla: That's a general overview. We're about halfway through. It's a general overview of our charismatic leader and her background.

58:55 Chris: Her background. Yeah. I'm still interested in, like, where. Where we are now. Kayla: We've touched lightly upon her teachings and beliefs, but let's dive into a bit more. So let's go ahead and talk about number two, ritual. And we're gonna talk about ritual loosely. I'm gonna talk a lot about, just, like, her practices. Let's just go on a journey with me. Let's do it. Teal Swan is largely successful because of her ability to leverage the Internet and social media. She began creating YouTube videos in the early aughts and has increased her savvy ever since. Chris: So she's an influencer. Kayla: She is just. Wait. I hope I make a point of this. Whatever. If I say it later, then I'll just repeat myself. There are people who are like, she's more of an influencer than. She even is a guru. She's a social media influencer.

59:45 Chris: Interesting. Kayla: I read an article that was like, I can't stop thinking about Teal Swan's what Teal swan's skincare routine must be. Her pores are beautiful. And I'm like, yeah. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Hold on. Just. Okay, before you react. Chris: Okay. Kayla: It's worth noting, and I said this before, that teal is very conventionally attractive. Like, she is statuesque. She has striking features, long brown hair. She dresses in this really hippie, new age way. And given her modeling background, the girl knows her angles. Her insta is gorgeous. Her YouTube vids are very carefully curated. Multiple news outlets, including the gateway, pointed out that teal is just as much an influencer, a social media influencer, as she is a spiritual guru. Chris: Fascinating.

1:00:25 Kayla: She's aspirational. Chris: Right, right. As influencers tend to be. Yeah. Kayla: And she has the Insta story to back it up. Like, she takes gorgeous photos. Her social media is just. It's great. Like, you want to watch her. She's magnetic. She's charismatic. Her voice is, like, really confident. And it's. Her voice is kind of low. Not in a. Like, Theranos way, but in a, like, I'm extremely confident in what I'm talking about, and I don't have to. I don't have to put on any airs. I'm being straight with you. Like, her voice is really fun to listen to. Chris: Sure. I mean, that makes sense if she's able to influence people that way. Do we have, like, a goal of making sure that we talk about Fyre festival on every episode?

1:01:06 Kayla: Now that I didn't talk about Fyre fest. Chris: I know, but I was about to. Kayla: Because should come up in every episode. It's the only thing I want to talk about. Chris: No, because, like, it kind of, you know, it kind of seems like this is part of that same octopus. I don't know. You know, it's like there's influencers that make us think weird things or make us think things that aren't true, and sometimes that's. She has big fraudulent party. Kayla: She's got way more to show for herself than Billy McFarlane does. Chris: Sure. Yeah. Well, right. Yeah. Kayla: She's got. Chris: Billy McFarland's mistake was picking a date and place. Kayla: Oh, Billy. We love you, Billy. Also, you did really bad thing.

1:01:51 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Okay. Teal Swan is magnetic. She's charismatic. She's also hypnotic. Like the gateway. I keep spoiling the gateway. You should still go listen to it, even after this episode. It does such a good job of. Oh, it just does a good job. They have an expert on who claims that her YouTube videos could possibly be engineered to induce hypnosis or a trance state, really, like, from her low voice, like, to kind of her low, like, droning voice, like, she often uses, like, psychedelic visuals. You get lost in the content as it speaks to you, and so you can kind of check out, but it's still getting in there. And sometimes the backgrounds will be one of her frequency paintings.

1:02:36 Chris: Okay, what's that? Kayla: Frequency paintings are these, like, symmetrical, psychedelic, fractal, like paintings that are done by teal. Her website describes these paintings like this. Because of the extrasensory abilities that she came into this life with, Teal is able to perceive the energetic, vibrational reality that makes it the physical world you see before you. These frequency paintings represent the energetic, vibrational frequency of the specific subject matter. To understand more about how this form of artwork functions, it is important to understand the meaning of the word vibration. Everything in the universe is made up of energy that vibrates, and everything that vibrates, impacts or imparts information. The amplitude and frequency of energy is what determines how, in what form that energy will express itself. We call this a vibration. I love the face that you're making right now. We're gonna keep going normally.

1:03:29 Chris: You know what that face is? I wonder what Ramtha would think of this face. Kayla: Normally, only information that has expressed itself at or slower than the speed of light is received by our physical senses in our three dimensional reality. However, this is. Chris: Wait, hold on. Stop a second. Kayla: However, please. Chris: Please stop. Where is this? On her website. Kayla: This is on her website about her frequency paintings. Chris: We're getting, like, a new age metaphysics. Kayla: The only way to understand the frequency paintings is to understand vibrations. Chris: Oh, right. I can't just look at them and be like, they're pretty. Kayla: No. Chris: Okay. Kayla: However, teal is able to perceive information beyond the normal physical senses and create paintings that mimic the vibrational, rather than physical manifested level of a subject. By focusing on these paintings and having them in your living space, they will cause your energy to entrain with and resonate at the same frequency and amplitude of the vibration that they are created to convey, and in turn, aid you to amplify and manifest the presence of the subject matter in your life.

1:04:36 Chris: This person, whoever wrote that really missed their calling as a writer for star the next generation. Kayla: Well, the person who wrote this didn't come up with this. Like, vibrations are a thing. Chris: Yeah, but they could have just. I mean, they could. I can hear reverse the polarity in there, right. Kayla: You know, you can buy these paintings clearly. Chris: I imagine that they're expensive. If they are vibrational, oh. Kayla: Oh, my friend, not for teal swan would not preclude you from being able to own one of these. You can get all sorts of merch with their frequency paintings on them, including bikinis and sweatshirts. Okay, so you can buy. I'm sure you can buy originals. Chris: I went not respecting her. To respecting her now. Just like in that one sentence.

1:05:19 Kayla: I'm sure originals are expensive, but if you go on her website, you can buy posters, prints, hats, mugs, bikinis, sweatshirts. Chris: Yeah, it's like you can buy merch for the scream. I mean, anytime you have exactly art that's just that important. Kayla: The thing is, they're pretty cool looking. Do you want to see some? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Okay, so they're like. Chris: Okay. Kayla: They're like album cover art from the seventies. Chris: Yeah, yeah, they're very. Kayla: And like, do you see, like, exploration, psychedelic insight, happiness. Chris: The color. The color schemes, though, trust. They're a little crayon yemenite. Kayla: Oh, sure.

1:05:59 Chris: They don't feel you saying you don't. Kayla: Want this on a bikini. Chris: I mean, I prefer my bikinis to be like solid. Like solid color. Or maybe polka dots. Yellow polka dots is more speedy. Teeny weeny. But, you know, I guess, like, I don't know, I'm not super impressed, I guess, is what I'm saying. Kayla: Question for you, though. Chris: They're definitely better than I thought. Kayla: You see that? Some of them have this word Arcturian. Chris: Arcturian. Kayla: Do you know what that is? Chris: No, what's arcturian? Arcturus, like the star. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Cause teal's an alien, guys. Chris: Oh, she's an alien. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: No way.

1:06:40 Kayla: It's one of the claims. Chris: That's one of the claims. Kayla: It's less like she flew in a ship from Arcturus or whatever to here. And more because she's this, like, she's been reincarnated so many times and she's this like, deeply spiritual being. She has been an alien. Chris: She's been an alien in like a past life. Kayla: But like this art, like the arcturian thing is not specific to her. I've seen other new age spheres talking about, like the arcturian council. Like one of these. One of those weird Facebook groups that I'm in for. Like other new age shit. Somebody the other day was channeled. Like, channeled the arcturian council and like, had all of this information and they were like, I won't get. Chris: Definitely makes them an authority. Yeah. Yeah.

1:07:22 Kayla: People were like, I'm nothing. I don't think that you're right because they were saying some really weird shit. And the fact that the new age community was like, I don't think you're right. Chris: Yeah, yeah, that's good for them, I guess. Before you turn this around, I gotta say I dig her logo. Like, I don't know. Kayla: Oh, her logo is fantastic. Chris: Yeah. Her logo is. Kayla: It looks like a swan, but if a swan. Chris: Rocky. Sweet. Kayla: If a swan were a phoenix. Chris: Yeah. Well, and it's right. And not just, oh, that speaks to her, like, whole mythology. Wow, good for her. And then I also really, like. I dig the. The font. Like, the teal swan font too, is pretty cool. Kayla: In addition to her logo being cool, she also has a really cool tattoo on her arm. And it's kind of like her. It's like her defacto logo. And it's. Let me see if I get this right. It's a circle inside of a square inside of a tri. Let me look it up.

1:08:10 Chris: Circle, square, triangle. They're all sort of inscribed. Kayla: Teal swan tattoo. It is a. It is a circle inside of a square inside of a triangle inside of a circle. And she has this on her arm. And a lot of her followers also get this tattoo. Chris: Yeah, that makes sense. Kayla: That's a tangent. I don't even have that in my notes because there's too much. Chris: Just too much to talk about. Kayla: Okay, back to the YouTube videos I think she posts every week and they are watched by thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of viewers. Chris: Consistent posting is key. Kayla: Her most recent video, titled depression, like as of last week, has. I didn't check it. Today, has 62,000 views. The loneliness epidemic, which is one of her, like, most frequently referenced, like, one of her more popular, has 128,000 views. I saw others that had well over 200,000 views.

1:08:59 Chris: Jeez. Kayla: And these videos often showcase or reference her processes. Oh, yeah. These videos often showcase or reference her processes. And process is used very specifically. Process refers to the various techniques teal has created that allow her followers to manifest her teachings in their lives. Her most famous process, the completion process, is described on her website as drawing on her wide range of extrasensory abilities and incorporating key aspects of inner child and shadow work, Teal offers a revolutionary 20 step process for healing any past hurt or problem. The steps? Creation of a safe haven, validation, seeking origin, awaiting relief, purification and healing. Your face is good.

1:09:53 Chris: So isn't this. I mean, all those things sound nice. Kayla: I was waiting for you to react. Chris: No, no. I mean, that's all I got. I don't know, like, I'm. Kayla: You don't have to react. I got more. Chris: Yeah. No, I guess the reason that I'm sort of, like, having a tough time reacting is cause I don't. I'm still like, there's a lot of words that don't seem to add up to a lot of meaning there. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Like, what is a process? Kayla: A process is a technique that teal has developed to help her follow. I think I just said this to help her followers manifest her teachings and philosophies in their own lives. So if you want to reach enlightenment, just do teal's processes and that'll help you get to be where teal is.

1:10:37 Chris: Okay. So I just feel like we're circular definitions. So, like, by technique, you mean like every day I have to, like, say these mantras or. Kayla: No, the completion process is a discreet process you'll go through. We're gonna talk more about it. Chris: Okay. It might help because I'm really having a tough time understanding what the process. Kayla: The way that this goes is that we're kind of like spiraling around and down and around and down. We'll talk about it. Chris: Okay. Kayla: It's really hard to, like, it's so hard to tease all of this out because it is so convoluted. Chris: Yeah. Cause that's what I'm trying to figure out is like, at the end of the day, what is this? Is it a lecture? Is it something I meditate on? Is it an exercise?

1:11:18 Kayla: No, the completion process is so first of all, it's a book. She wrote a book. Okay? It's like if you went and got a self help book and it was like, remember I used to have that book, ten days to self esteem. And it was like, here are the activities you do in the future. Chris: Okay? So it recommends actions and activities and things for you to think and say and do. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay, now I'm getting it. Okay. Kayla: The podcast Ono, Ross and Carrie point out that a lot of Thiel's work, especially with the completion process, directly lifts from traditional therapeutic modalities, specifically cognitive behavioral therapy, even though which cognitive behavioral therapy is like one of the most well researched, well studied, well evidenced therapeutic techniques.

1:12:02 Chris: Right. Kayla: And Thiel very adamantly believes modern psychiatry and psychology is largely harmful bullshit. Chris: Oh, that's so weird because, like, nobody else thinks that. That's a charismatic cult leader, right? Kayla: I tried to do the completion process. I tried to. Chris: You tried to do it? Kayla: I tried to schedule a completion process session for myself, but as of this. Chris: I thought you said it was a book. What do you mean session? Kayla: Just wait. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: As of this recording, I haven't been responded to by any practitioners I've reached out to. Oh, yeah. When I say practitioners, that means that teal is currently scaling the completion process. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: She trains other people in her methods, and once they're certified, they're listed on her site as vetted completion process practitioners. And it is a very deliberate process, like I mentioned, since it's heavily influenced by CBT, which. Cognitive behavioral therapy is a very hands on therapy. Like, you set out to identify your emotions and your thoughts and involves, like.

1:13:04 Chris: Write them on paper, and you're like. Kayla: Oh, this is the cognitive distortion I'm experiencing. Okay, how do I reframe this thought? And how. Like, it's a very. Chris: Right. It's work oriented. Kayla: Deliberate process. Chris: Yeah. Quick question. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: These certified processors, or whatever they are, can they train other processors? Kayla: I don't think that's part of the. It's not like MLM in that way. Chris: Yeah, because that's why I asked that. Right. Is because it's like, can this go MLM? Kayla: Or is this, like, not yet, but. Chris: You must receive the divine knowledge from Teal person. Kayla: Everybody that is certified is. They're, like, hand picked by Teal to be trained, and they go through a certification process. And she says that not everybody makes it through the process. Chris: Right? Yeah. You gotta have quality control and that kind of bullshit.

1:13:46 Kayla: She says, like, oh, I can tell if you're gonna be good at it before you do the process. But then also, some people don't get through the process. So why did you choose them? Chris: Maybe teal works in mysterious ways. Kayla: Teal does work in mysterious ways. Chris: No, we don't understand Teal's plan. Kayla: So, like, CBT with the completion process, there's a lot of connecting with emotions, identifying emotions, reframing thoughts, and it's done in, like, a meditative or trance like state. Spoiler alert again. For the Gizmodo podcast, the Gateway Jennings Brown undergoes the completion process with one of Teal's certified practitioners. Okay, you have to check the episode out. Chris: Okay. I mean, I'm. Dude, I'm listening to this whole podcast, like, right after we stop.

1:14:26 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So maybe I'm just, like, getting into what you're about to talk about, but so these practitioners. So it's not just a book. It's also people like you and I. Kayla: It's like any sort of like a therapy session. It's like. It's like a therapy session. So it's like, you and I can go to the store and get a book about how to do cognitive behavior. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: I can go by ten days of self esteem and I can start working on that. But then I can also call up a therapist and be like, hey, can we have a session? Chris: Yeah. It's like, that analogy is like, you. Kayla: Can buy completion process book, do it on yourself, but if you would like to do it with a therapist, quote unquote, you go on her website, you type up whatever, and you find a completion process practitioner. I didn't put this in my notes, but. Okay, remember how I was like, oh, my friend Steve, his friend Alex used to work for teal. He doesn't work for teal anymore. There was some sort of something happen. I don't know. There was. I think there was some sort of.

1:15:20 Chris: So he's not a processor. Kayla: There was some sort of falling out, I feel, like, between teal and some of her, like, original followers around 2017. Chris: Oh, man. Kayla: He no longer works for her. He's also listed, like, on his online presence. He says that he's a completion process. Like, certified. Okay, but if you go on her website and he's not listed, search the practitioners. He's not on there. Chris: Oh. I smell a schism. Kayla: So. And, like, I noticed in other, like, other places of the Internet, other forums and stuff, there were mention of, like, falling outs between some of the original, like, early teal followers. Chris: Sky. The Martin Luther of teal swanism.

1:16:02 Kayla: No. Chris: Okay. No, because why? Because he's, like, not significant enough. Kayla: He's not, like, nailing nothing in a door as being like, this is bad. I don't think. I don't think he doesn't like teal. I think that maybe teal didn't like some stuff that I don't. I honestly don't. I'm speculating. All I know is actually, that would. Chris: Make him exactly like Martin. Martin Luther. Because Martin Luther didn't. He was like, yeah, no, Thalson's great. And then he did that, and catholic church was like, f you. And he was like, okay, well, yeah. Kayla: Okay, let's get back to this. Much of thiel's work, like, the completion process is meant to help you get through painful emotions.

1:16:43 Chris: Okay. Kayla: The claim is that no matter who you are, you have experienced trauma in some way at some point in your life, which. Trauma is a strong word, but, you know, we've all experienced things that fuck us up. Chris: Sure. Yeah. As you go through life, you experience, you know, negative slash, you know, but. Kayla: Through the completion process, you will find resolution through identifying the trauma and integrating it back. Into your life. That's. That doesn't seem like that's the process's words. Chris: Great way of putting it, but. Okay. Kayla: A lot of her work is about leaning in to your painful emotions rather than trying to, like, run from them or hide from them or ignore them or, like, stuff them down. Chris: That's actually. Yeah, that's very CBT ish.

1:17:24 Kayla: And that's like, okay. That's what you should do if you're in a place where you can handle it. Chris: Right. Kayla: If we're talking about trauma, like, true. Chris: Trauma, like PTSD inducing real trauma. Yeah. Kayla: It's not necessarily always the best option to lean into it. Sometimes you are not in a place where you can, like, physically handle that experience. And so techniques to draw you out of it are useful. Teal doesn't agree with that. Teal is like, no, you gotta feel it. Chris: She's an expert. Kayla: You gotta lean into it. Well, she has access to the akashic records. Of course she is. Chris: Right? She knows everything. Kayla: One of the many steps of the completion process involves connecting with and recalling early memories, particularly ones associated with the painful emotion you're working on. If you remember, we just talked not too long ago about Thiel's close association with recovered memories.

1:18:15 Chris: Huh. Kayla: So let's talk about the ramifications of that. Teal's signature process involves recalling early traumatic memories. Teal herself has dabbled in recovered memories, which, like we said, the scientific consensus is that's not a thing. Chris: That's not a real thing. Kayla: And now Thiel is certifying randos all over the world in this memory processing therapeutic modality. And yes, they're certified. Chris: So this one jackass doctor snow. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Has essentially, like, unleashed a mental virus on the world that is damaging people everywhere. Kayla: Well, I'm not saying that the completion process has resulted in false memories, but I'm saying that it very well could. Chris: Sure. Kayla: The recipe is there.

1:18:56 Chris: Sounds like that's a big part of the. That's like a fundamental part of her teachings. Kayla: Right. And so when we say that these people are certified practitioners, they're certified by Teal. Teal's not certified by anyone. Chris: Right. That's like saying, like, I'll certify you. Kayla: She's actually certified by. She was issued a cease and desist letter from the state of Utah for practicing psychotherapy without a license. Chris: Good for them. Yeah. Did it do anything? Kayla: We'll talk about it. Chris: Yeah. Yeah, that's a no. Kayla: So, like, we're playing with fire here. Like, that's. Yeah, a really dangerous recipe. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I don't have a separate section for addressing her anti factuality, but, like, her teachings basically say, I know better than everyone out there. Like doctors, scientists, therapists, academics, they're all wrong, but everything. Listen to me. My teachings, you'll be a strong point.

1:19:47 Chris: In favor of antifactuality. The other thing that we sort of pointed out earlier, like the motivated reasoning of false memories or sorry, that if I say that false memories aren't a thing. If I say that or sorry, repressed memories aren't a thing. Excuse me. Kayla: Right. Chris: And you and your response to that isn't, oh, okay, show me the evidence. Okay, I guess the evidence says that's not real, and instead you say, like, no, no, they definitely are a thing and you're wrong. And I know that you're wrong because you disagree with me. Kayla: Right. Chris: Then that's motivated reasoning, which is a big part for me, is a big part of the anti factuality closed logical system. Kayla: Yeah, no, that's. If somebody's telling you the only person you can that can help you is me. Like that right there. That's the closed loop.

1:20:33 Chris: Right. Kayla: So, yeah, cancel so much. Okay. Chris: We can do it. Kayla: Okay. Let's talk again about YouTube. I don't know if this can be chalked up to ritual, but, like, given the frequency of her YouTube postings and given how doggedly her followers watch them, and given how the videos themselves are tinged with, like, this trance inducingness or hypnotism, there's definitely some overlap with ritual here. Chris: Huh. Yeah. Kayla: So I want to point out here that teal very precisely and very openly utilizes search engine optimization, or SEO, when posting her videos. Can you explain what that means? Chris: Good little influencer she is.

1:21:14 Kayla: Can you tell the people what that means? Because I can't describe it. Right. Chris: Yeah. So, SEO. All right, I need to think about this. Kayla: Sorry I put you on the spot. Chris: I need to think about it. Kayla: I guess I can say SEO is basically like, if you make a post or if you have a website, you include specific keywords in order to, like, optimize the driving of traffic to your site. Chris: Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's like knowing which words will appear in search terms and which things will. It's basically working the system for Google. It's working. It's knowing what will get you searched higher in the rankings. Kayla: It's almost kind of like proto hashtags. Chris: Yeah, yeah, it's exactly.

1:21:54 Kayla: God, I'm good at these analogies. Sorry. A huge part of how teal has a master following has to do with the YouTube recommendation engine as well as Google search results. Chris: See, remember when I said, oh, YouTube earlier? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: That's what was going through my head is when I said that. Kayla: On the Gateway podcast, Jennings Brown talks to teal about this process, and she has no qualms about stating that she and her team spend a lot of time crafting the keywords that will go along with her videos in a way that will ensure they pop up for viewers more and more. Chris: Like, for example, it's like, oh, man. At the same time, like, I really don't like her. But then, she's a savvy business. She's very good at what she does. I don't fault this aspect of it almost.

1:22:39 Kayla: It's gonna get more complicated. She talks about how, given how much of her work has to do with trauma and intense emotions and the, like, she tags her videos with keywords or sentences a person in crisis might use when searching. Chris: Oh, never mind. Take that respect back. And now she's. That sucks. Kayla: Does that sucker. Is that smart? If this were like, a therapist being like, okay, let me just. Let me read the next part. Chris: Okay. Kayla: She said to Jennings Brown, if someone's mother dies and they're upset by it, they're probably not immediately going to Google and typing in, like, therapeutic grief process or like, bereavement. Like, they're typing in, my mother just died. What the fuck do I do? Chris: Yep. Kayla: If that were. If somebody who had a therapy process that was evidence based, utilized that technique, would that be bad or good?

1:23:29 Chris: This is a good way of framing it. I guess I would say that would be good because the intent is to help that person. Kayla: And, like, you're trying to really get. Chris: To somebody who's actually proven right. So connecting to that person as a skill is not a bad thing. Right. So I guess that really, it's like, a lot of these things, it comes down to the fact that she's not evidence based, and I'm not convinced that she has the best interests of her. Like, I don't know, like, she might believe what she's saying, or it might just be that she knows what to do to make money. I don't know. Like, it. When you. When you give a hypothetical like that, it's like you're assuming this perfect knowledge, right, of. Yes, in a perfect knowledge world that I know the person is like, a licensed, real person, then I'm like, okay, yeah, but since we're not in this perfect world and it's teal swan doing it. I'm like, eh, it feels like it's probably more dirty.

1:24:35 Chris: I don't know, but it's so hard to know. Kayla: Right? Yeah, that's why it's like. Cause like, I've done that. I've been in a crisis or been upset and, like, literally gone to google and been like, what the fuck? Rather than. Chris: Sure. Kayla: Like, sometimes it's just. It's almost like a way of, like, venting or a way of. Sure. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Kayla: It's like I've done that before. I don't think I've typed in, my mother just died. What the fuck do I do? Chris: But that would be weird since she's alive, right? Yeah. Kayla: But like, if teal. Like, if Teal believes in what she's selling, if she thinks that she's helping people, then it makes sense to use that technique. Chris: Sure. Kayla: Yeah. Do you think that you're really going to be connecting with people who need your help? Yeah, I know.

1:25:17 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Don't worry, it'll get more gray area. Okay, so by very carefully favorite area. I know by very carefully choosing the right keywords, Teal's videos are just more likely to pop up or be recommended to the right audience. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Okay. I feel like we are deep into this episode, and I'm not quite sure if I've clearly illustrated exactly what belief system teal is selling outside of, like, her general new age ideas. Chris: Yeah, not really. Like, I kind of get that she's like indigo child and hippie new age weird stuff, but we don't. Yeah, we haven't talked about specifics, so let's. Kayla: Let's talk about that now. And that's actually how we're going to transition away from ritual and into harm.

1:26:02 Chris: Next time on. Sorry, I keep wanting to transition because we've gone so long. Kayla: Yeah, I know. Chris: Or sound like a total doofus if we don't cut there. Kayla: I'm definitely gonna leave that in. Chris: It's a win.