S1E3 - The City (Irvine, California)

0:23 Chris: I'm Chris. Kayla: And I'm Kayla. Chris: And welcome to cult. Kayla: Or just weird. Chris: Oh, we did that. Kayla: We should say welcome back. Chris: Welcome back. Kayla: That everyone who's listening has listened to our previous two episodes. Chris: Right. We definitely have a fan base now with a third whole episode. Kayla: All of our die hard fans, thank you for being here. Chris: Thanks, one person. Thanks, mom. Kayla: It's mom. It's our mom's. So I did the first episode. You did the second episode you hosted. Chris: And it was Chris reacts, and then the second episode was I hosted and Kayla reacts. And so now we're going back to.

1:06 Kayla: Now we are back to the first format where I'm gonna educate you on something. Chris: And I'm good at reacting. You are good at reacting because it doesn't involve doing a whole bunch of research beforehand. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So, yeah, it's really my preferred role. Kayla: Unfortunately, at some point, we're gonna have, like, we're gonna have to try and, like, surprise each other with the topics I feel like. But unfortunately, you already know my topic. Chris: I do. Yeah. What we need to do is get, like, separate lists because we both are going off the same list right now. So you know what I wanna do next week, right. So we might have to. We might have to rethink how we do that. But yes, I do know what your topic is gonna be, but our listeners don't. Kayla: They don't. So if we're ready. Yeah, I'm gonna jump in.

1:49 Chris: I'm as ready as I'm ever gonna be. Kayla: I've got pages and pages of research here. Chris: I don't have any cute banter, so just go right into it. Kayla: You might have some banter. You definitely don't have cute banter. So for this week, listeners, we wanted to do something a little different. The last two episodes have been about pretty explicitly culty groups. Groups on the more traditional end, the more cult end of the cult are just weird spectrum. Yeah, I mean, we had, you know, foundation, church of the millennium. Chris: Right. Romtha's school, all kinds of, like, eschatological mythology and, like, possible sacrifices. And actually, you should just listen to the episode.

2:30 Kayla: True. Chris: And then, yeah, Ramtha's school of enlightenment is pretty far out there. Kayla: So rather than continuing down that path for our third episode, let's take a sharp right turn and talk about something else. Let's talk about the city of Irvine. Chris: Just the city. Kayla: The city of Irvine. Okay. But before we, like, get too far into this, did you say you had attraction or. Chris: Yes. So correction, a correction. Errata. So last week there just. There was something that I said on the podcast that was slightly off in terms of number of years, and it's important. Facts matter, you know, I don't want to do a podcast where I say, like, oh, really important about facts. And then I just, like, make some numbers up. So we talked about the age of homo sapiens on this planet.

3:26 Kayla: I think I asked that question you. Chris: Were talking about, like, yeah, you said, what was happening 35,000 years ago when the alleged Romtha was fighting Atlanteans, and I said, oh, that sounds like the beginning of agriculture. And then you said, oh, how old are humans total? And I was like, a million years, maybe. Kayla: I blindly bought both of those. Chris: I know. And probably all of our listeners did, too. I'm just kidding. I'm sure you guys knew, but just in case you didn't, I was off. Kayla: Oh, interesting. Chris: Yeah. So, homo sapiens, the earliest homo sapien skeletons, come from Africa around 200,000 years ago, roughly. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Which is. That's pretty far off from a million. Sorry about that. And then the 35,000 years ago was not farming. Farming was more around 10,000 years ago.

4:14 Kayla: Okay, so what was happening 35,000 years ago? Chris: We were still hunting and gathering. Kayla: So there was not two and a half million lemurian troops battling Atlantis? Chris: Nope, definitely not that. That. I know. Kayla: So humans are 200,000 years old, or. No. What? Humans are 200,000 years old. Chris: Modern humans. So homo. Yeah, there's older species of Homo, like homo erectus and whatever. But some of us say us is. Kayla: 200,000 years, and were not doing agriculture 35,000 years ago. We were hunting and gathering. Chris: Yes. Kayla: Good to know. Chris: Yeah. And like I said, facts matter, right? And where we are wrong about stuff, we will issue attractions like this one. Kayla: I'm not wrong. I'm not gonna be wrong about anything.

4:54 Chris: Yeah, I know. I know that's how you feel. Kayla: Anyway, my Irvine research is perfect, so let's. Chris: Why don't we get to that? Yeah. Kayla: Okay. I'm, you know, full disclosure, I'm from Orange county, born and raised. Obviously, you as my husband, know this. I grew up ten or 15 minutes from the city of Irvine. My sister went to college there. Many of my friends were from there or also went to school there. It was kind of. Chris: I worked there. Kayla: You worked there for many years. Yeah. It has one of the better, like, hangout outdoor malls, especially, like, when you're in high school and can't really do anything except, like, go to the movies or eat at PF Chang's. But outside of that. It was a fairly unremarkable city when I lived there, not when I lived in Orange County.

5:38 Chris: I mean, what I remember about it just from working there is it's very cookie cutter. I don't know. Kayla: Like, there's, the three words I have are beige, cookie cuttery and sleepy. Chris: Yeah. Like, there's definitely some interesting parts to it. Like, my understanding is that there's some, you can get some, like, good asian food. Kayla: Like, I've definitely, I do talk about that. Chris: Had some of that, you know, thanks to some of my friends, obviously, I don't know where to find that stuff. But good korean barbecue, supposedly it has really low crime. But, like, other than that, it's just, like, just there. Yeah, it's just, it's got nice trees and cookie cutter houses. That's kind of all I really remember about it other than my, you know, work days. Kayla: Right. Well, it gets interesting.

6:21 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Now, if you're not from the greater Los Angeles Orange county area, you've maybe never heard of Irvine. Even if you're from southern California, you may have never been to Irvine because again, like you said, there's not landmarks, there's not a destination city. And across the board, it probably sounds a little strange for us to say, oh, we're doing a city for our cult or just weird episode. So I wanted to start by sharing a Reddit thread on r Orange county that it feels very demonstrative of why I picked a this city as a topic. Chris: Okay. Kayla: It just kind of jumps right to the heart of it. Reddit user Newtuatrum asks, apologies new too atrum if I have mispronounced that, this person asks, does anyone get a weird vibe from Irvine? Like, I don't know, it's a little too perfect or something. All the regulated houses and regulated foliage and so many roads where it's easy to get lost. Dot, dot. Something just feels dot, dot off. Dot, dot.

7:34 Chris: Yeah. I mean, I do kind of get that vibe when I'm there. Actually, there's, that remind me of another thing about Irvine that I do remember, but I think you'll probably talk about it, so I'm going to hold onto it for now. Kayla: Got it. That's all you're saying? Chris: Well, if I'm going to hold onto it, then I'm not going to talk about it. So therefore, yes. Kayla: So if you're from Orange county or if you've lived in Orange county, you know exactly what this person is talking about, this, like, weird vibe. That Irvine has. And the replies in this Orange county thread don't disappoint. So let me read you a few of them. Ownage 99988 says, good name. I know. Yes. It's like if a city was designed and lived in by robots. Mary Pickaford says, yeah, all the neighborhoods look like that Hollywood suburban street set at Universal Studios.

8:25 Chris: Yeah, it's like Stepford. Kayla: It is Defo Stepford user Revhappy revealed their urban dictionary definition for Irvine, which is like, for a while it was the number one. It was the top definition when you searched Irvine in urban dictionary. Chris: Awesome. Kayla: Goes like bizarro World. The concept of big Brother turned into reality. Someones keeping an eye on you. If your grass is a centimeter too long, you receive a warning, then perhaps get evicted. No property in Irvine you own is truly yours. Snooze fest. A great population of Starbucks lovin yuppies, home of emo kids and quote unquote punk kids whod freak out if they had to live in the neighboring Santa Ana. No culture, no character. Dont dare paint your house pink. Beige is the official color of Irvine. No approval needed. The whole city is beige, physically and spiritually.

9:19 Chris: Yeah, I agree with you, zz. Kayla: As in a snoring sound. Chris: Yeah. I mean, the thing is, like, I. Kayla: There's one more. Chris: Okay. But I just want to say, like, I don't want to shit on where anybody lives, you know? Like, I feel bad, like, doing, like. Kayla: I know, but I, like, it's my hometown. I'm allowed to. Chris: Right. I don't want to be like, your hometown sucks. But, like, I worked there for many years, so, like, I kind of feel like it's a little bit my hometown, too. Kayla: Right. Chris: And all of this is kind of correct. It's. Yeah, it feels very beige inside and out. Kayla: Yeah. The last comment that kind of got to me was user internos says, of all the subsets of Orange County, Irvine is the most Stepford wife of all. And that relates back to what you were saying, that there's just this Stepford vibe.

10:08 Chris: And to be clear, there are pretty Stepford y places in OC. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Chris: Like, that's not a low bar to clear for Irvine. So, like. Kayla: Yeah, that says a lot. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: It's like trying to pick the most Stepford y of, like, the real Housewives, right. I guess they're not really Stepford wives. They're just hot and crazy. Chris: Right. It's a little bit different. But there are Stepford places in OC. Kayla: So that should give you listeners a taste as to why, in general, the city of Irvine feels like something I found worthy as a topic, I do want to take this moment right now to say, kind of going back to what you were talking about with the good food, I'm largely going to be talking about the white people aspects of Irvine. There's a lot of talk about how Irvine has no culture. Irvine is Stepford y. There's nothing to do. Mamade. Well, it's only chain restaurants. And, yeah, to a certain degree, that's all hella true. But it's also important to note that Irvine has a large immigrant population, a large asian and asian american population, and that has brought wonderful pieces of various cultures to the city. There's, like you said, there's amazing chinese food and korean food and japanese markets and.

11:18 Kayla: And, you know, all that. Everything that goes with that. So when we say that Irvine is weird or there's no culture, we're nothing. We're not talking about that aspect of it. We mean something else that we're kind of gonna suss out throughout this episode. Chris: Yeah. If you drive around the place, you'd understand, like, for five minutes, we should. Kayla: Put some pictures up. So now that I've given you a taste of some of, you know, the general Irvine weirdness, I want to go ahead and tell a personal story about one of my encounters with Irvine weirdness. I don't. I think I've told you this story, but I'm not sure. Chris: I'm not sure. Kayla: When I was in my late teens or early twenties, one of my best friends moved to Irvine so he could go to school at UC Irvine, the college that much of the city is built around. I would obviously, I'd go visit him all the time, hang out, because he was, like, one of. One of my friends that had their own apartment. So it was, you know, gotta go hang out there. Even if it's an irvine, you know, there's not really a lot to do there besides, like, go to PF Chang. So we'd end up just kind of taking a lot of walks, because, again, there's nothing really to do. And you're generally. When you're going on walks, you're walking through manicured parks, manicured playgrounds, manicured grass areas.

12:34 Chris: There's a lot of manicuring. Yeah, the asphalt is manicured there. Kayla: One time were walking through some various park. There was probably a Starbucks nearby. There was definitely a playground. And there were also some tables that we sat down at. And I finally noticed something. The tables were sitting at looked exactly like all the other tables I had seen around Irvine, like in shopping centers, at malls, in parks, all looked the same. And so I was kind of like, okay, well, you know, made by the same company, right? They all had this, the same design on top. So you know how outdoor tables often have, like, grids of tiny holes? Like, it's just like. Chris: Yeah, yeah. They're like the green, like, kind of weird plastic with the holes.

13:17 Kayla: Right. Well, the holes on the Irvine outdoor tables form a specific pattern. And it almost kind of looks like a weird spiral. And, you know, like I said, I just. Okay, all made by the same company. That's kind of weird. But the answer my friend gave me was quite a bit weirder to me. I remarked offhandedly, you know, why do all these tables have the same design? And my friend said, oh, that's the Irvine logo. And I was like, the Irvine logo? Yeah, the Irvine logo. Everything has that on it. And that's when it just, like, it clicked for me. Like, it was. It was on all these tables. I looked over. It was on the playground equipment. Like, it was on signs, it was on hedges. It was fucking everywhere. This weird spiral logo.

14:08 Chris: Mm. I know exactly what you're talking about. Kayla: Right. Chris: Because this is the thing that I was gonna mention earlier, the idea that I parked, that I didn't want to jump in. So the other thing that I remember pretty clearly about my time in Irvine is that there's this spiral logo that just kind of is everywhere. Kind of like Mickey Mouse ears if you're Disney. It's pretty strange. Kayla: Yeah. I mean, that was my first inkling into, there's something weird about this city. Weirder than the fact that it's entirely beige? And so I started looking into it, and here we are. Chris: What? Like, what other cities have a logo? Like, is this the only, like, why does a city have a logo? I guess is my question.

14:48 Kayla: I mean, that's the question that we're going to be answering throughout this. Chris: All right, I'm glad I asked it. Kayla: That's. That is. That question is kind of at the crux of this whole topic, so keep that in your mind, listeners. I want to start with just, like, a little tiny background about Irvine. And this is. This is from a lot of. This is from Wikipedia. I have a bunch of other articles that I also researched from. You know, we'll include them in the show notes. But obviously, Wikipedia is the perfect starting point for something like this. So according to Wikipedia, Irvine is a master planned city in Orange County, California. Chris: Sounds ominous. Kayla: In the Los Angeles metropolitan area. The Irvine company started developing the area in the 1960s, and the city was formally incorporated on December 28, 1971.

15:38 Chris: Okay, wait, so the Irvine company. Kayla: Hold your thoughts on the Irvine company. We will. Chris: Is that different than you said? The Irvine company formed it and then the city incorporated. So that's two different things. Kayla: We will get to that. Chris: Okay, sorry. Kayla: First we need to start with the words master planned city. Chris: Yeah, that definitely sounds ominous because. Kayla: Yeah, those words struck me as odd, I'm assuming. And they struck you as odd. I'm gonna go ahead and go out on a limb and say they struck our listeners as odd because, like, I. Chris: Know there are cities that, like, get. There's such thing as urban planners. Like, that's a job. And I've never heard that term before. Kayla: Master plan city. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Yeah. Well, they kind of, you know, those words give me a culty vibe. And I then, you know, I had to. I went down the Wikipedia rabbit hole, clicked that link, found myself, you know, in, you know, Siberia at that point. For all our edification, that's a big.

16:24 Chris: Master planned city up there. Kayla: Yeah, for all our edifications, a master planned city, or planned community is any community that was carefully planned from its inception and is typically constructed on previously undeveloped land. This contrasts with settlements that evolve in a more ad hoc fashion. So most cities, the things that we live in as cities that we know of as cities, they have, by and large, grown organically, right? Chris: Like there's a trading post on the river, and then some other people come to, like, you know, supply the trading post with food. And then some people supply that. And then 100 years later, it's New York, right? Kayla: Or one group of people has a settlement there, and then another group comes in and ruthlessly murders them all. And then is like, this is my place. And then, you know, grows from there. Like most cities, very organic, grow in a quote unquote organic manner. Whereas a planned city is when somebody goes, there is a plot of land over there. Let's build a city, my friend.

17:25 Chris: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. I know which cities are like, I think. I believe Salt Lake City is like that. Kayla: Salt Lake City is a planned city. Chris: I think so. I think so. I know there's more, too, but there's certain degrees of planning, too. I don't know. I think maybe it was planned at first, and then after that it was organic. I'm maybe out of my depth a little bit here. I don't know. Kayla: That's fine. We can move on. Chris: Yeah, let's move on. So I don't see anything wrong. Last week. Kayla: That whole master plan situation, that probably accounts for a lot of the Irvine weirdness. Right? Master plan. That, you know, that would make sense. Why there's just, like, beigeness and fakeness and all this kind of stuff that's giving people a weird vibe.

18:09 Chris: Right. Kayla: But if you're like me, you're now asking yourself, okay, plan city. Who planned it? And the answer to that, my friends, like we mentioned, is not the government, it's not the county, it's not anything like that. The people behind the city of Irvine is none other than the aforementioned Irvine company. And that logo that you see everywhere in Irvine, that is their company logo. Chris: So it's like a company owned city? Kayla: Yeah. Yes, essentially. Chris: That sounds like a weird sort of 1984 style maybe. Not that. Somewhat like corporate dystopia kind of.

18:51 Kayla: Yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. It just. It seems weird across the board. Most cities and towns are built organically, become incorporated by the government. But apparently the city of Irvine was planned and executed by a real estate development company and then, like, became a city. Chris: Yeah. So, like, okay, so Coca Cola is a corporation, right? And they're. What they want to do is make Coke and sell it to people. What is the Irvine company? What's their mission statement? Kayla: Well, the Irvine company, it's a real estate company. Okay, well, and we'll talk more about that. But it's. It just. The thing that weirds me out here is that the city was built by a real estate development company and then it became. Then it incorporated.

19:38 Chris: Right, right. It was built before. Kayla: Yeah, it was like, built before. It was. It's just weird. Chris: Right. Kayla: So let's go ahead and talk about the Irvine company and how they came to build what is now, you know, this upscale slash bland community smack in the middle of Orange county. And we're going to start. I want to go ahead and start right at the beginning because this was so much fun to research because it goes back very far. Okay, so starting in the present, the Irvine company is an american private company focused on real estate development. It is headquartered in Newport Beach, California, with a large portion of its operation centered in and around Irvine. Chris: So wait, the hq is not even in Irvine? Yeah, come on.

20:20 Kayla: A large portion of its operation centered in and around Irvine. A planned city of 250,000 people. People mainly designed by the Irvine company. Chris: If you'd asked me to guess the population, I would not have said that large. Kayla: It feels smaller to you? Chris: Feel smaller to me. Kayla: I think it actually had, like, a bit of a population boom. Like, I think for a while it hovered around 90,000, and then a lot of folks started moving in. Chris: Interesting. Cause that's why I would have guessed around there, I think. Kayla: The company was founded by the Irvine family and is currently wholly owned by Donald Brennan. Since the company is private, its financials are not released to the public. However, Donald Bren is the most wealthy real estate developer in the United States, valued at $15.2 billion.

21:04 Chris: Holy crap. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So, okay, wait, ive never heard of this guy. And hes the most wealthy real estate developer in the country. Kayla: I know I keep saying this, thats. Chris: Like Facebook money, but hold your horses, okay. Kayla: Because we get into it. Chris: Okay. Kayla: There's a lot to untangle here. It was actually really difficult to structure the research because it was just this tangled knot of having to untangle all of the little bits as to why it's weird. Okay, so, okay. The Irvine company eventually grew out of a partnership founded by James Irvine I, an irish immigrant, when he, the Flint brothers and Llewellyn Bixby founded a 185 square mile ranch in 1864 from three adjoining mexican land grants. So you and I have heard of Mister Bixby.

21:59 Chris: Okay, I was just going to ask if that's Bixby. Of Bixby Knowles land. Yeah. Okay. Kayla: So there's a lot of, it's not even mythology, but a lot of, like, history in southern California is based on these, like, large land ranch landowners that took these mexican land grants and basically built what is southern California. So James Irvine is one of them. The Flint brothers, who I hadn't heard of, Llewelyn Bixby. There's some other guys. Chris: Mister Huntington. Yeah. So for our listeners, in case you don't live in southern California, Bixby Knolls is like, Irvine is another sort of, like, small, township.

22:40 Kayla: It's a neighborhood. Chris: Neighborhood in southern California. It's sort of near the Long beach area, which it's, if you're not from here, it's south of Los Angeles. Kayla: Right. Bixby Knowles is a neighborhood in a, in the larger city of Long beach, which is just south of Los Angeles. Chris: Yeah. And fun fact, we actually lived there for some number of years. Kayla: Quite a while. You worked in Irvine. Chris: While you worked in Irvine. Oh my God. Oh, it's a conspiracy. Kayla: Okay? Chris: It's a cult. Kayla: You're calling it? Chris: I'm calling it. They've been manipulating me this whole time. Kayla: This whole time. Mister Irvine's just gonna like, pop out and be like, hey, yeah, gotcha. Chris: Got him. Kayla: I could go into the history of the Irvine family because it is rich in storied, but honestly it's the least culty aspect of the whole thing. Just go on Wikipedia, guys.

23:26 Chris: Sure. Kayla: Basically, to summarize, these dudes bought a bunch of land in California not with the intent to develop it, but instead with the intent to sell it as agricultural land. Because this was much of southern California was cows and orchards and farmland. Chris: There's still. I can, when you drive around Irvine, there's farms there still, like, there's still agricultural. Yeah. Kayla: The part these, you know, these partners and the land went through a lot in this time. But my favorite story is that when the South Pacific Railroad needed to build through Irvine's land for a train route, Irvine refused because he hated one of the magnets of the railroad company. And the railroad company just kind of said, fuck it, and started building on the land anyway. And that's when a bunch of ranch hands with shotguns came out and confronted the building crew. And that is where the story ends. I could not find out what happened after that other than the railroad got built. I don't know what happened in that confrontation.

24:23 Chris: Yeah, it seems like that's missing a key component of that story, listeners. Kayla: If anyone knows how that shootout went, please email us holderjustweirdmail.com and tell us. Chris: Shoot out blue balls right now. Kayla: I know, I know. So eventually, James Irvine died in 1886. Trustees illegally then tried to auction his land off. And so then his son, James Irvine II, incorporated all of his father's land holdings and the Irvine Company was born. Chris: Okay. And these landholdings were all. And I know you probably already said this, but all where the current city of Irvine is or. No. Kayla: So there is. Irvine Ranch is like the big chunk of land that they own, but like, the Irvine Company owned a lot of other land around southern California. I think I talk more about specifics. Like, more of the specifics later.

25:17 Chris: Okay. Okay. Kayla: But just as of right now, they had a big chunk of land. Then they made the Irvine Company. From the late 18 hundreds all the way up to the 1970s, the Irvine company used the land for cattle operations and started buying up more and more land around it. So they were just putting it fast. Chris: Forwarding to the seventies. Kayla: 18 hundreds all the way up to the 1970s. Cows. Cows. Chris: All right, cows. I like cows. Kayla: Fun fact, in 1953, the national Boy scout Jamboree was held on Irvine Ranch land and Jamboree Road. This is an Easter egg for anyone who's lived in Orange county. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: Jamboree Road, which connects Newport beach to Orange was built so that people could travel to the jamboree from the train stations.

26:02 Chris: And now Jamboree Road is like a main thoroughfare in Irvine. Kayla: And I lived there my whole life. I had no idea why it was called Jamboree. And doing this research, I finally learned why. Now here's where things start to get master planned. Chris: Okay. Kayla: In 1959, the Irvine company donated, sold, and I say that meaning a portion. They donated slash sold 1500 acres to the University of California system. So I think they donated 1000 acres and sold 500 acres. And because the UC system wanted to construct a new University of California, what would become University of California Irvine, and makes sense. That's why a city was planned, because a college was going to be there and the company went, really? Huh? We should put a city there.

26:54 Chris: So UCI came first, and the city, and then the city was like built around it. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: The city, like we said, officially incorporated later in 1971. A few years later, the Irvine company stopped dealing in cattle entirely. And that's where we introduce our potential charismatic leader. We mentioned Donald Wren. Chris: Huh. So this is the guy that's still alive? Kayla: Oh, yeah, now, yeah, he's 86. Chris: Okay. Cause, yeah, in the seventies. Right. Okay. Wow. Kayla: So here we go. Chris: Okay. Tell me about Mister Bren. Kayla: Mister Bren. Mister Donald Bren. I put was here and I'm like, no, he still is. He is a successful real estate developer and he started doing business in southern California in 1958. And I did the math because I knew how old he was now and I was like, 1958. He was 26 when he started doing his real estate development. And he is a truly self made billionaire because he didn't come from wealth. I think his father was a real estate developer, so he kind of learned the trade there.

28:04 Chris: But so he's not like some other real estate developers that get like a million dollar loan from their daddy. Kayla: I did find an article that was literally like, which Donald is the better real estate guy. And Donald Bren comes out on top every single time. Donald Bren. Actually, his first loan was a $10,000 bank loan, and he used that to build his first house in Newport beach. Chris: Wow. Kayla: Later in 1958, he founded the Bren company, building homes all around the Orange county area. He then went on to found another company called the Mission Viejo Company. MVC. And Mission Viejo is another city in southern California, in Orange county. Chris: Yeah, pretty close to Irvine, I think. Kayla: And MVC bought a bunch of land to develop and then he sold the company for $34 million in 1970. And then in 1972, following a recession, he bought the company back for.

28:57 Chris: He bought Mission Viejo company. Kayla: Yeah, he bought it back for $22 million. Chris: Oh. So he sold it for 34 and bought it for 22. Kayla: Bought it for 22. Chris: Man, that's. Yeah, that's how you do it. Kayla: So what I'm saying here is that Donald Bren is an extremely successful, extremely savvy businessman. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And he's the face behind the city of Irvine as we know it today. He did this by taking the proceeds from MVC. And in 1977, he joined a group of investors to buy out the one four, six year old Irvine company completely. So bought it out from the Irvines. Chris: Okay, so the Irvine family doesn't own it anymore. Kayla: Correct. Chris: Got it. Kayla: No. Correct. Chris: Okay.

29:38 Kayla: Bren made sure to buy the most shares of all of the dudes that were involved in this. He walked away with 34.3% and he became the vice chair of the board. But he didn't stop there. Over the next 20 years, he slowly bought more and more shares. So by 1983, he was the majority shareholder. And then I think he was voted, like, the chairman of the board. And by 1996, he bought all outstanding shares and became the sole owner of the Irvine company. He became the sole owner of a company that quite literally built a city that it now controls. Chris: So this one dude owns a city by himself, basically. Okay.

30:23 Kayla: The Irvine company continues to run things in Irvine. Chris: Isn't this the plot of Schitt's Creek? Yeah, basically, if Schitt's Creek was like, a massively valuable place instead of. Okay. Kayla: Oh, right. We should say that, like, Irvine is hella valuable. Like, there are a bunch of, like, tech companies there. There's a bunch of other big companies there. Chris: Taco Bell has their headquarters there. Kayla: Right. Chris: Blizzard Entertainment. Kayla: Is there a bunch of other video game studios? Chris: Yeah, and yeah, actually, thanks to Blizzard being there for so long, there's like, this, like, little ecosystem of game studios there of, like, all these exploited employees. I think there's other hqs too. Kayla: Like, I feel like FedEx, maybe FedEx might be there. There's big. Chris: I know there's a car company there, too. Yeah. It's like a very popular corporate.

31:08 Kayla: It's a wealthy city. Yeah, it's a wealthy city. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So going back to the Irvine company continues to run things in Irvine and it continues to develop real estate around the county. In fact, the core holding of the Irvine company, Irvine Ranch, which I mentioned, makes up one fifth of Orange county. Chris: Whoa. Kayla: But much of that is set aside for real estate development and land. And so, okay. Much of that is set aside for real estate development. And also there's a large part of it that's set aside for land conservation. And in fact, the Irvine Ranch has one of the largest preserved areas of land in the country. And I think at some point, Donald Bren gave that land back to the actual government.

31:55 Chris: Thanks, Donald. Kayla: And then there's all this talk. Cause he's very much a philanthropist as well. And so, of course that feels philanthropy. Chris: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Kayla: But then there's a lot of talk of like, well, is this a way for him to get a tax break? And. Chris: Oh, almost certainly. Kayla: Right. According to Wikipedia, it is believed that the Irvine company owns more than 120 million estate. The company's holdings include several hotels, marinas, golf courses, 550 office buildings, 125 apartment complexes, which I think amounts to 6000 apartments and more than 40 shopping centers.

32:37 Chris: That's just insane numbers for one person to own. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Like, yeah. Holy shit. Kayla: Yeah. Also, according to Wikipedia, by 2005 OC Weekly, which was a. I mean, it's the OC Weekly. It's a local newspaper. Chris: Local newspaper, yeah. Kayla: They wrote that Bren, quote, wields more power than Howard Hughes ever did. Probably as much as any man in America over a concentrated region, determining not only how people live and shop, but who governs them. In 2006, the Los Angeles Times wrote, simply put, Orange county looks like Orange county because of the influence of Donald Brennan. In an interview in 2011, Bren summarized his real estate investment strategy. Quote, what I learned was that when you hold property over the long term, you're able to create better values and you have something tangible to show for it. Forbes, in its 2015 edition of the 400 richest Americans, ranked Bren as the wealthiest real estate developer in the US and 30th richest American with an estimated net worth, like we said, of 15.2 billion. I now want to take this moment to ask you.

33:42 Kayla: You did answer this question already. Have you ever heard of Donald Bren? Chris: No. Kayla: How have we not heard of Donald Bren? Chris: Especially when he's apparently, like, governing our lives from atop his pile of Scrooge McDuck money. Kayla: You are someone who lived in Orange county for several years, worked in Irvine for eight. Chris: I worked in a building in a company that was essentially owned by him at some weird high level. Kayla: And you had never heard of him. Chris: And I had never heard of him. And I've seen his logo. I've eaten at restaurants there. I've shopped there.

34:22 Kayla: Right. Chris: Probably a substantial portion of my income has gone directly to this man's. Pockets. Okay. Kayla: And I'm somebody who grew up ten minutes from Irvine, and I only fairly recently began understanding who Donald Bren is. Chris: Wow. Kayla: Like, I'd heard the. I had heard the name my whole life because there are lots of things named after him. Because he's such a philanthropist. He is donated. So there's just. There's shit named after him. Like, the one that comes to mind first for me is there's a performing arts center on the UCI campus called the Bren Event center. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And I just assumed that Donald Bren was just some rich guy who gave him money once.

35:06 Chris: Sure. Like. Like some normally rich, you know, some of these only stupid rich. And at a filthy red truck. Kayla: Yeah. I had no idea that Donald Bren, a, systematically gained power over the Irvine company, which controls an incorporated. Like, it controls an incorporated city in my county. And B, is one of the wealthiest and therefore most powerful people in the world. Like, yeah, he's the richest real. We've said this before. He's the richest real estate developer in the United States. Like, he's number 30 on that Forbes list. He's number. He's still number 30. Like, I checked for 2018. In 2018, he's number 80 on their billionaires list, which lists all the billionaires. And to be fair, like, okay, we've talked about how he's been, like, philanthropic. He's been hella charitable. He has. All of his philanthropic donations amounts to a billion dollars. And it's like, it's mostly been in areas like research and education and conservation.

36:06 Kayla: And politically, he has supported both Republicans and Democrats. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I think he tends to lean a little bit more towards the republican side, but he's always been a supporter of Dianne Feinstein. Chris: Interesting. So, okay, yeah, she always has a lot of money. I guess maybe that's part of where it's from. Kayla: In short, he's not a small deal. Chris: No. Kayla: But for some reason, he does his damnedest to keep as low a profile as possible, even while becoming ultra wealthy and buying a company shares and literally controlling a city via his company so closely that the playground picnic tables have the company logo on them. Yeah, I mean, like we talked about up top, the city is so weirdly controlled that there are rumors about weird vibes felt in the city. Oh, and don't worry, before we wrap up, I'm gonna mention some of, like, the even weirder rumors about the city that I came across that I couldn't corroborate, but just weird ass rumors.

36:59 Chris: Can't wait. Kayla: So Wikipedia has this to say about Donald Bren's quest for privacy. Bren likes to keep a low profile. And as he explains, I'm not a public official. I'm a businessman. I'm a builder. I'm a planner. And if I feel that I've done the job well, that's the satisfaction I get, not from doing interviews or being more public. OC Weekly described Bren in 2005 as, quote, one of the nation's least public billionaires who guards his privacy jealously. Chris: Right. I mean, I know there are definitely, like, rich people that do that. There's definitely rich people that keep her low profile. But, like, I don't know. This is as, like, the differential between, like, power level and notoriety here is just way off the charts, though.

37:43 Kayla: I know. It's. It's weird. Chris: And especially because he, like, owns a city, right? It's not like he owns, like, oh, you know, he. He owns the company that makes all the Porta potties. Like, okay, no, he owns the company. Kayla: That made the city, but this is. Chris: Like, he owns a city where people live and there's buildings. Like, yeah, it's pretty surprising to not know who that guy is. Kayla: Here's a fun little tidbit. The Los Angeles Times also in 2005 canceled a pending article discussing how the fictional Caleb Nicoll of the popular television show the OC was based on Bren, allegedly because the Irvine company threatened to withdraw advertising. The Times denied the allegation and stated that the story was canceled for timing reasons. But come on.

38:30 Chris: I didn't even know they had that a level of advertising clout. Do they advertise a lot? Kayla: The Irvine company? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: I mean, they must. I mean, they must. Chris: Okay. I mean, sure. Kayla: Now, because of this dry sand effect, since Donald Bren wants to be private, that ramps up the interest into learning about the sordid details of this 86 year old billionaire's life. Chris: Right. Kayla: Honestly, there's not, like, if you really look into his life, there's not necessarily a lot there that feels culty. There's just kind of, you know, a lot of familial drama, if that makes sense. There are some things that just feel weird for a dude who runs a company that maintains a city with strict rules about appearances. In said city, he has seven children from three to five different relationships. In 2010, two of those kids sued their dad for back payment of child support, demanding $400,000 each per each month they were suing for, which totaled $134 million.

39:28 Chris: Oh, my God. Bren said that for him, that's like, nothing. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Truly holy crap. Kayla: He said that the personal arrangements he made with their mother, like, he made personal arrangements with her. He had already financially cared for the family. Like, he. Like, whatever verbal agreement he had with this woman, he had fulfilled that. And the children and their mother claimed that those arrangements resulted in far less child support than they would have been awarded had they handled the issue in family court. Bren argued that he thought their mother was using protection, but surprised him with two kids who are, like, four years apart. So, like, he got surprised twice. Chris: Yeah, that's. I mean, surprise, like, that feels like this guy exists. And now he's like, surprise, I have sons. There's just a lot of surprises, like, with this guy's life and existing.

40:19 Kayla: The mother of these two children said, like, no, he wanted them. So there's this, like, he said, she said situation here. Either way, he won because, you know. Cause he's a billionaire, right? Chris: Yeah. You can. You can pay a lot of money for a lawyer. Kayla: Oh, also, a story came out in 2015 that Donald Bren owns 97% of Manhattan's Metlife building stakes. Chris: What? Really? Kayla: And he's owned it for a while now, but no one knew until 2015. The managing partner. Like, the people who thought, oh, this is the managing partner. Like, this is the person who owns it. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Less than 3% of the stakes.

41:01 Chris: Wow. Like, just in Manhattan. Like, so this. So that says to me, what else does he own around the country? Kayla: Yeah, he could own. Because it was a surprise to find out that Donald Bren owned this building. What else does he own? Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: He has $15 billion. He can own anything. He probably. He could own us. I don't know. Chris: Well, he does own us. Kayla: Yeah, I guess it's true. Chris: I worked in his city. Trigger's part of his fault inadvertently. Kayla: There's a few more weird family stories out there, but not sure if any of that really amounts to any of the culture. Just weird stuff. So let's go back to the city itself. Chris: Okay. Kayla: As mentioned, Irvine is extremely regulated. The master planned city basically built everything up on a gridden. All the houses and apartments look basically the same. Like, they have very similar architecture, very similar coloring. So much so that there's, like, lots of local jokes about getting lost in Irvine or Irvine residents, like, constantly entering the wrong houses, thinking it's theirs.

42:02 Chris: Yeah, it's very, like, when we say cookie Cutter. Yeah. It's not even just, like, they, you know, oh, this house looks the same. It's like, areas look the same. And, like, just. Kayla: There's this joke. Chris: Easy to kind of get lost in the. In the sameness. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Oh, and there's this joke amongst Irvine locals. It's like, oh, we have 62 different Words for beige. Chris: It's like Eskimos and Snow. Kayla: Yeah. There are legendary rules, like, we mentioned from the Reddit Post, about keeping your Grass a certain length. There are city zoning rules that make it so that, like, each block basically is laid out the same and looks the same and that all commercial spaces are clumped together. So then we have all of these commercial spaces that look the same because they are these small outdoor shopping malls that have, like, the same chains.

42:46 Chris: Right. Kayla: Chain. Chain restaurants, chain stores. Chris: And I've definitely turned into wrong shirt malls before. Kayla: Oh, yeah, of course. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Because it's a Stepford vibe. It's just all perfect. Chris: Right. I've been like, oh, I was supposed to turn in this mall, not the one that was up, you know, a thousand yards that looks exactly the same. Kayla: Right. Chris: Further down the street. That. So I don't understand. So I have a few things that. And maybe you're going to address this, but, like, why? Like, why? I don't understand why when people decide they're, I'm gonna make the city. Because everybody, like, it feels like this has happened before, right? Like, Walt Disney did this with Epcot. I'm gonna make the best city. Nobody's ever thought better than I have right now about how to make cities. And then they, like, they always inevitably come up with this, like, yeah, we're gonna. It's gonna be a regular gridden. Like, okay. Why, though? Why is that the best city?

43:39 Kayla: I don't know why that's better than the way organic cities are built. Like, I know that there are, like, there are some criticisms of, like, you know, we live in Los Angeles county, right? Yeah, there are some criticisms because we don't have. We don't have zoning laws like, something like Irvine does. So there can be, like, a restaurant next to an apartment next to an auto body shop next to a school next to it, like, next to a church, next to anything can kind of just be anything. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And so there's criticism of, like, that not looking nice or that not being an efficient layout. I think that when you start talking about planning your city, you go towards, like, efficiency.

44:19 Chris: Sure. Kayla: Especially if you're, like, a Donald Bren, like, businessman. You're not necessarily. And you're not a city planner. I'm hoping he, like, I'm hoping that the Irvine company employed, like, city planners that, like, knew what they were doing. Chris: Well, see, that's so that's where I kind of am questioning. Right. Is because, like, okay, so you're saying, yeah, an organic city is not going to necessarily grow in the way that will be. Like, you know, when the second trading post comes into town and the 10th trading post comes into town, that's not going to be optimally planned for when it's Los Angeles in the year 2019. Kayla: Right. Chris: I. So you're going to wind up with a lot of inefficiencies and things that make it hard for people and contribute to poverty and things that go, like.

45:02 Kayla: Diagonal as opposed to east west. Chris: So it's not, to me, it's less about that. Because that's why you have urban planners, right? So you can try to address some of those things. And also, like, as technologies come into play and technology changes, it may become better to design a city in different ways. Such as, like, if there are fewer cars on the road one day, then our cities are gonna be like, they're gonna have way too many roads in terms of square footage area, and then it might be worthwhile to design things like superblocks or whatever. So anyway, all that is to say, like, I understand that. But then, like, why is Irvine so shitty? You know? Like what? You know what I mean? Kayla: Like, I think you're talking about the. Why does Irvine have no culture issues?

45:45 Chris: Well, it's not just no culture like, it is that, but it's also the, like, why am I. If this was planned, and as you say, like, you hope that they had someone come in and plan it. If it's so planned, then, like, why does it. Why is it so confusing? Like, why does it feel the same everywhere? Why is it. It doesn't feel officially part of why. Kayla: It feels the same everywhere is because there's no, like, organic points of interest. There's no landmarks. Chris: Like neighborhoods. Yeah, yeah. Kayla: Like, if you think of Los Angeles with all of its flaws, we have landmarks that are based on things that have been here for fucking ever. Like Olvera street, landmarky, like. Chris: Right. Kayla: And that wasn't something somebody planned, right?

46:28 Chris: Yeah. The Hollywood sign wasn't planned. Century city wasn't planned. And, you know, the Santa Monica Pier wasn't necessarily planned, like, so. Kayla: And those things also give, like, flavor, right? So, like, Irvine doesn't really have that kind of flavor. There's nothing to really differentiate the neighborhoods. Like, again, I keep saying, so maybe. Chris: That'S not a city planning issue is kind of what you're saying. Saying it's more of like a. Kayla: It's a culture issue. Chris: Yeah. It's not an efficiency thing. It's more of, like, a culture thing. Like, when you, like, when you try top down a community, you are missing, like, that key, like, spiritual piece almost. Kayla: Right? Yeah, well, it's. I mean, we live in LA county, like, I've said 700 times before, and something that I really like about Los Angeles is that there's a lot of, like, neighborhood pride. People don't say, like, I'm from LA. Like they say, I'm from Hancock park or I live in Miracle Mile, or, I live in this neighborhood, that neighborhood. And you don't really get something like that in a planned city. I feel like, because you don't have those neighborhoods that kind of, like, grow up organically, those neighborhoods are kind of. The borders are created by, like, the restaurants that, like, the family that's been there forever has built up. Or there's like, oh, yeah. You know, from that statue on is Hancock park or Highland park or whatever.

47:47 Kayla: You don't get those, like, those, like, almost socialist, like, socialistically, democratically created ideas of a neighborhood in a planned city. Chris: Right. Kayla: Because, like, no, it's not. A government entity isn't really coming in and saying, like, this area is Fairview heights. Chris: This is the shopping place. It's called Fairview Heights. Kayla: Right. Chris: This is the. Kayla: No, I mean, the names of our neighborhoods. Chris: Oh, the names of the neighborhoods. Right. Kayla: Are organic, and they're almost like people up as opposed to government down. Chris: Right. Kayla: If that makes sense. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And you don't really have that in a city like Irvine or a planned city. Chris: Right. And that's why it feels strange. Yeah. Kayla: And then there's also just the, like, the hella regulation. Like, the hella, like, if we never cut our front lawn, like, we're not really gonna get in trouble, you know, if we.

48:38 Chris: Well, we also don't own our front lawn. Kayla: If we had a house, we could. Chris: We front on a big public street. Kayla: If we had a house, we could paint it pink. Chris: Right. Kayla: It wouldn't be an issue. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: Speaking of that, I managed to get my hands one of the many Irvine based homeowners association's list of rules. Chris: Ooh, homeowners association. First of all, drama time. Kayla: The damn thing is 36 pages long. Chris: Jesus. Kayla: 36 pages long for this? So when that Reddit user joked about, like, getting evicted if your grass grows too long. Yeah, he's not far off. Like, yeah, this many rules. And, like, having seen what Irvine looks like, it gives me, like, I'm no longer thinking Stepford I'm thinking Camazotz from wrinkle in time. Like, that's what it makes me think of. Just like, must conform like this. And that's just what it makes me feel so.

49:33 Chris: Well, I mean, if it's. Yeah, like, if you're a company, you always want to be on brand, right? And that's what it sounds like is kind of what happens with Irvine is that's because it's a company. You have a brand and you got to stick with that brand. Kayla: Right. Chris: You deviate from that brand, then all of a sudden, like, you know, that corporate headquarters that was going to locate there isn't going to anymore. Kayla: Right. Chris: So, I mean, that's probably a big part of why he is a 15 billionaire. Kayla: Yeah. Some choice rules from this HOA list are. I'm just going to read you the ones that really stuck out to me. Each owner shall keep his her garage readily available for parking of permitted vehicles and shall not store any goods or materials therein, nor use any portion of the garage for a workshop or other use of such storage or use would prevent said owner from parking the number of vehicles therein for which said garage was originally designed and constructed. An owner will be granted a 30 day period in which to store moving material within their garage in conjunction with moving into their new property.

50:39 Chris: Hell, no. Kayla: Storage of vehicles is not permitted on streets. A vehicle will be deemed to be stored when it has not shown substantial movement for any 96 hours period. Chris: Okay, how many days is that? I don't even. Kayla: For the purposes of these rules, quote unquote, substantial movement involves the removal of the car from the community for at least an eight hour period. And it's parking in a different parking space. Vehicles that are deemed to be stored on private streets will be subject towing at the owner's expense. I think 96. Chris: How do you. 96 is four days. Kayla: It's four days. Chris: What? Kayla: You can't park your Corona street for four days? What if it's Christmas?

51:19 Chris: And how do you enforce this? Kayla: Who's looking at your car? Chris: That's what I mean. Like, are there cameras? Are there drones? That wouldn't surprise me. Kayla: Hoa. Decorations, decor or other party props are not permitted in any of the pool areas unless homeowner has an approved decoration agreement with management and paid a dollar 200 refundable deposit. Homeowner must receive approval from management at least three days in advance of their event party. So if you want to have, like, your kids party pool party, you can't hang up like a happy birthday sign unless you pay a $200 deposit. Chris: Pardon me, miss? Pardon me. Do you have a fun permit? Because if you don't, I'm gonna have to ask you to disperse your fun, please. Kayla: Oh, you wanna talk about fun? You wanna talk about fun? Holiday lighting may not be installed more than 30 days prior to the holiday or event and must be removed within 30 days thereafter.

52:06 Chris: How do they define holiday? Could I just say, like, oh, no, dude, these are Thanksgiving lights, actually. I mean, yeah, they're red and green, but. Kayla: Well, here's the fix. Any lighting that is displayed more than 60 days during any calendar year requires approval by the architectural committee and must be installed and maintained in accordance with the association's architectural guidelines. Chris: You're saying words, and all I'm hearing is, thank God I don't live in Irvine. Thank God I don't live in Irvine. Kayla: It just kind of like, this 36 pages just kind of goes on and on like that. Like, if you want to live in Irvine, every move you make is going to be watched like a hawk by this big brother. Hoa. And you will be regulated into extreme conforming.

52:48 Chris: I mean, I guess I know. Cause, like, there's so many businesses there. Kayla: And it's a safe place. Chris: Safe. Kayla: It has good public schools. Maybe you like the more, like, maybe you like the restaurants there. Maybe you like. Chris: Right? And if you don't care about, like, conforming to these, like, majorly strict rules. Kayla: Some people do care about their block looking a certain way. Like, I don't care if somebody on my block has an unkempt lawn or paints their house polka dot. That's not something that I worry about. But some people do take pride in their block looking a certain way. So a city like Irvine is a good place for those kinds of people. Chris: Right. And then it's. I guess you're more safe with your home value, too. Like.

53:31 Kayla: Right. Chris: I. Because that's why homeowners associations do this, is because it's not just a place you live. It's also an investment. Kayla: Right. Chris: And if somebody does do, like, unkempt lawn polka dots next door to you, then all of a sudden they've depreciated your investment. And so that's why homeowners associations exist. So I guess I get that sort of, like, mitigating that risk. Kayla: But these rules are extreme. Chris: Like, oh, yeah. Kayla: To say you can't use your garage for anything but putting your cars in there. Chris: Right? Kayla: Like, that's very intrusive. That's inside your home at that point. Chris: Yeah, it's extremely that's regulating what you. Kayla: Do inside of your home that you own. Chris: Yeah, yeah, that's pretty bad. Kayla: And I just. I get bothered by the, like, don't park your car on the street for more than four days. Like, what if the person works from home? Like, I used to work from home and sometimes my car would be parked on the street for a week.

54:20 Chris: Well, Kayla, if you would just use your garage for what it was supposed to be used for, right, then this wouldn't be a problem. Kayla: That's true. Chris: So it all ties together. Kayla: God damn it. Chris: Irvine checkmate. Kayla: We've talked about how Irvine is weird because it's a master planned city rather than an organic one. That is, private citizens had to just, like, had this idea to make a city and that would just eventually exist as part of the local county government that they could control. Like, it's weird we can agree on that, right? It's weird because the Irvine company has wide reaching control over the city itself and the county at large. It's weird because the Irvine company has a sole owner, a reclusive billionaire who systematically bought up shares of the Irvine company until he became that sole owner. And it's weird because of the extreme rules and regulations. Folks who live there and visit, like, they feel this strange stepford vibe because of all of those rules.

55:13 Chris: Right. Kayla: Before we wrap up, though, before we get to our question, I want to talk about some of those weirder rumors I mentioned that I came across during my research. Chris: Oh, before we go to the unsubstantiated stuff, I had another question because actually what you were just saying reminded me. Kayla: Shoot. Chris: I. What is the relationship between the Irvine company and the city government? Kayla: I don't really know. Chris: Are they the government? Kayla: No. Chris: Is there a different government? But, like, there's, like, a shadow corporate. Kayla: Government telling people to do? There's the city of Irvine. Chris: Like, is there a mayor. Is there a mayor of Irvine? And, like, is his name Donald? Kayla: Donald P. Wagner. The mayor of Irvine since 2016 is Donald P. Wagner.

56:01 Chris: Okay, this is what I mean. Like, what is. Kayla: But it's because there's two different things. The Irvine company developed the real estate and it owns large portions of the buildings. Of the entertainment. It owns the structures. But the, like, the city is still a city. It's a city. Chris: So. But, like, it feels like they must be, like, heavily involved in the city government, though. Like. Like, heavily involved. Kayla: You think that the 15 billionaire, like, isn't throwing his weight around a little bit, right? Chris: No, that's. Yeah. Okay, so he probably, like, owns most of the city government, including the. Clearly a clone of himself that is the mayor.

56:44 Kayla: Well, actually, the first thing I'm going to talk about here, which isn't unsubstantiated, kind of. Kind of touches on that a little bit. Chris: About him having a clone. Kayla: No, no. Not that. Not that, but just how. How the. Chris: Oh, that's a shame. Kayla: How the city operates versus the company. Like, is it the company? Is the city? It just. Okay, so, okay, so I came across some weird rumors when I was trying to answer, you know, this question of, is the city of Irvine a cult or is it just weird? The first thing I'm going to talk about isn't so much a rumor as it is a confirmed and questionable practice. In 2018, multiple news outlets began releasing stories, all with similar headlines, the gist of which came out to be license plate data collected at Irvine company malls, possibly provided to ICE, immigrations and customs enforcement. So remember how I said that the Irvine company owns a shit ton of commercial real estate?

57:40 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Well, it was revealed in 2018 that much of this real estate, their malls, in particular their 40 malls that they own, utilized license plate readers in their parking lots. And the license plate readers they used are produced by a company called Vigilant Solutions, which partners. Chris: Vigilant solutions. Kayla: Vigilant solutions, which partners with the federal agency ICE, immigrations and Customs Enforcement. Chris: Okay, so it's exactly as dystopian as it sounds. Yeah. Holy shit. Kayla: Well, the Irvine. Chris: So, wait, was I being, like, spied on when I was, like, at the spectrum center? Kayla: Yes. Your license plate was being run. Chris: Awesome.

58:20 Kayla: The Irvine company responded saying that the data they collect only ever was provided to local law enforcement, not ICe. But come on. Like, the company that provides them with these license plate readers is partnered with Ice. Chris: Right. Kayla: Like, big brother much? Chris: And they followed up by saying, if you haven't done anything wrong, then what do you have to worry about? Kayla: Like, that's the thing. Why is this company putting up these license plate readers in the first place? Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: I don't understand that. Chris: No. Thanks to that. Kayla: So that's a real thing. Chris: Cool. We do live in a surveillance state. Kayla: We do, after all. So, moving on. I came across a rumor that I really couldn't find any info on, but I had to share it because I love it.

59:06 Chris: Okay, so now we're in rumorland. Kayla: This is total rumorland. Just people on the Internet talking. Chris: Got it. Kayla: The first rumor goes like this. While Irvine has one of the lowest crime rates in the US, they also have the highest number of dead bodies found buried in backyards. Chris: I am choosing to believe that. Kayla: I choose to believe that. I choose to believe. And. Yeah, couldn't. I tried to find. I tried to find a statistic. Couldn't, so. Chris: Oh, man. Kayla: We'll just have to hold that one in our hearts. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And last but not least, I mean. Chris: I'm gonna just guess it's like 90%, right?

59:47 Kayla: I mean, 90% of backyards have dead bodies. Chris: Yeah, of course. I'm just assuming it's something like that. Yeah. Just stands to reason. Kayla: Last but not least, the craziest story about Irvine I came across goes like that. Chris: Oh, that wasn't the craziest dead bodies. Kayla: No, no. This next one will blow your socks off. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I'm actually gonna trigger warning it. So, like, trigger warning. Weird sex stuff and torture. Chris: Ooh. Kayla: And, like, imprisonment and racism. Chris: Mmm. That's a. That's a spicy combo. Kayla: Yeah. So this story goes like this. Chris: Okay. Kayla: There's actually a hidden internment camp in Irvine. Chris: Holy shit. Kayla: Where a rich chinese family keeps about 100 japanese descendants from the original internment camps. They take them out for all kinds of torture and sexual gratification. Kind of like a Marquis de sad love story. The citizens of Irvine who know about this are so horrified by what is happening, but are afraid to tell anyone, so they obsess over the idea of order because it helps distract them from what is really going on. It was so it was in another Reddit thread trying to explain, like, why Irvine is so, like, regulated. And this guy's saying, because this, you guys, this fucked up thing is happening. And so everyone just kind of has to be, like, compartmentalizing because they can't deal with this fucked up internment camp situation.

1:01:10 Chris: Right, right. So that one is. That one's actually is. Believe it or not, it's substantially harder to swallow than there's dead bodies. Kayla: No, it's definitely not true. But it just goes to show that, like, the Irvine is weird vibe is so strong that it gets people to come up with insane stories like this just to make sense of the weirdness. Chris: Yeah. It's generating these narratives. Like, what kind of weird place would do that? Yeah. Right, okay, so, yeah, now, the dead bodies thing. Yeah, I buy that. Kayla: Yeah, yeah. We should say, like, because Irvine has such a low crime rate, the cops don't really have anything to do. So you get ticketed for jaywalking. You get ticketed for any fucking thing.

1:01:51 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: It's also not necessarily the friendliest place for certain minorities to because it is a very white city. And in more recent years, has become a very asian american city as well. But if you are not of those two groups, if you are black or brown, it's not the friendliest of places. Chris: Right? Kayla: Unfortunately. And there's dead bodies in every backyard, right? Chris: Yeah. Wow. I mean, you know what Irvine actually reminds me of, minus the racism, I believe, is I don't know if anybody here knows that in Orlando, Florida, there is basically a totally planned city called celebration that exists entirely on Disney property and is basically like, it's almost. It's actually almost the same situation. Like, I think Disney just, like, owns this city the same way the Irvine company does. And if you go there, it's a similar. It's. It's less. So, like, Irvine is more. Oh, I've seen this shopping mall. It was a thing thousand yards ago and also a thousand yards before that celebration is more like white picket fence, like Truman show. Like, everything is just so.

1:03:12 Kayla: Is there Mickey everywhere? Chris: And I think they do have Mickey Logos. That's creepy, if I'm not mistaken. But I'll have to look that one up. But, but it's. It's, Kayla: It's creepy. Chris: It's like an Orlando within Orlando. It's like the Orlando of Orlando. It's very strange. Kayla: Is it going to be a cult or just. Chris: I kind of feel like we should do an episode on celebration. Yeah, we'll just change this entirely to, like, weird cities of America, the podcasts. Kayla: Well, speaking of, it's actually time for me to ask you the question. Chris: Oh, boy. Kayla: Is the city of Irvine a cult or is it just weird? Chris: Well, I have my handy dandy criteria.

1:03:53 Kayla: Thank God. Chris: Here. These are the same criteria that we use to judge both best friends and the Rompa School of Enlightenment. Criterion number one, expected harm. So this is where the cult is harmful in some way to its members. Maybe it cuts them off from family members or it makes them do unhealthy things or whatever. Kayla: Or maybe it turns them over to local law enforcement agencies. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Is that harmful to, like, spy on your citizens and turn them over to the cops? Chris: That's harmful. So one thing that I'm not sure about with this criterion is who are the members of this cult? Would we consider the citizens?

1:04:43 Kayla: We're talking right now. I think we have to talk about it in the way that if you live in Irvine, you are a member of the Irvine cult or just weird group. Chris: Okay, okay. So, yeah. Cuz I. Cuz we don't really know anything about the Irvine company. Qua company. Kayla: Right. Chris: Other than, like, it just has a billionaire, reclusive owner. Kayla: Right. Chris: So I guess it makes sense to talk about the citizens. So I'm gonna say there's a little bit of expected harm because of the surveillance thing. Kayla: Right. Chris: But. But it's. It's tough to say, too, because, as. Kayla: You say, there's also a lot of benefits. Chris: It's a balance. Right. There's a balance of, like, you have to have one and a half inch grass and you can't park on the street. Kayla: Right. Chris: But then there's also low crime. And so if you're the type of person that. That doesn't, you know, want to do anything creative in your garage and is happy to park there, but you want nice schools and you want everybody's house on your street to look the same, then it's okay.

1:05:34 Kayla: It's almost like if you buy into the cult or just weird of Irvine. Chris: Then it's not super harm. Kayla: It's not harmful to you if you are down. So if you are a willing participant, it's not harmful. Chris: Right. And it's not like cutting you off from your family. It's not like if I went to, you know, live in Irvine, it's not like they'd be like, okay, well, to live in Irvine, you can't talk to your parents anymore. Like, it's not like that. Kayla: Well, it does do the, like, oh, you're gonna make me drive to Irvine. Oh, you want to get. You want to get dinner in Irvine. Chris: It does cut. So, for those of you that don't live in southern California, Irvine is pretty far south of Los Angeles. It's like an hour and a half drive. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So. And we have some friends that live there, and it's pretty brutal.

1:06:16 Kayla: Sorry, sorry. Friends that live in Irvine. We love you so much. Chris: Sorry. The only people that are probably even listening to this podcast right now, we love you. But anyway, so expected harm, I think, is low. Kayla: Right? Chris: Maybe there's a little bit because of the surveillance and some of the negative aspects. Kayla: But you know what we should do at some point? We should bring an irvinite. Chris: Oh, we should actually. We should have done that for. We should. Let's just cancel this one. And this is where we should call. Kayla: Don't we just phone a friend? Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It'll be like, who wants to be a urvenair? Kayla: Who wants to be a Donald Brenn billionaire? Chris: Yeah. Okay, so expected harm is low population of cult. Kayla: Well, 250,000.

1:06:56 Chris: Yeah, we know the exact population. If we're considering it, that's hella big. So that's big. So that's it. Because our criteria is for this one is smaller, is more culty because it's like, oh, you're like a niche group, whatever. Kayla: Right? Is it niche or niche? Chris: I am not sure. Kayla: I have no idea. Chris: I'm gonna say both, but only cause that makes me right on the air. Kayla: Gotcha. Chris: Okay, so then antifactuality. So is there. Yeah. So anti factuality is like, it's a closed, logical system. Kayla: What about just things that are hiding things? Chris: Yeah, and I think hiding things because we said that about best friends. Right. We said there's some antifactuality going on because they were hiding the things that were part of their past.

1:07:37 Kayla: Right. Chris: And so I would say there's some of that going on here. Right? There's some, like the whole. Kayla: The whole thing that we didn't know who. Donald Brown? Chris: Yeah, we don't know. Kayla: Yeah, the, like, there's the random logos everywhere and no one's really told why. Chris: Like, right. There's like, this. The sense that you're being watched, but, like, what's going on? So I say there's a little bit of that. You know, it's not like your average. It's not like a. I don't know, rse ramp. The school of enlightenment where they're talking about a 35,000 year old warrior spirit or, you know, the ways science doesn't actually work. Kayla: Right. Chris: It's not that bad. Percentage of life consumed. I don't know. I guess if you live there, then all of it. I mean, maybe that's a. Maybe that's a lot. I don't know. I mean, here's what I will say a lot. So I know people that. Obviously a bunch of people that live there, right? And one of the things that's, like, a little creepy is that when you live in one of these, like, apartment complex compounds, they tend to be, like, pretty self contained. Like, you don't really need to ever leave.

1:08:40 Kayla: There's a Starbucks. Chris: There's a Starbucks right down the corner. There's a gym. You can walk across the street to a whole foods. So there's not a lot of incarnate. It's kind of like that weird. Like, why would you ever want to leave Irvine, right? Everything you need is right here. You can check out, but you can never leave. Kayla: Right? Chris: So, yeah, it doesn't consume your life wholly the way, you know, like heaven's gate or something would. But there's definitely some consumption going on there. There's definitely some, like, you don't. You don't need to leave. Kayla: Stay here. Right. Ritual not, I think. No, no.

1:09:22 Chris: Although, actually, the logo thing. Kayla: The logo thing. Chris: Yeah, the logo thing is pretty rich, ritualistic. That's like. Kayla: That's pretty actually large. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: Just the fact that, you know, the logo. You knew the logo when I was talking about it, like. Chris: Yeah, it's everywhere. Kayla: It's everywhere. Chris: It's omnipresent, and it's. Kayla: If you look at it as a logo, it's a little creepy. Like, it's a little creepy looking. It's like a weird spiral. Chris: Yeah, it's very, like. Again, it has that corporate dystopia vibe. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: It's not like a nike swoosh. Kayla: No. It's like a reduced spirals. Chris: Yeah, it's like a red spiral. It's weird looking. So I'd say there's a little bit, like, we're kind of, like, hitting a little bit on each of these. And then finally, charismatic leader.

1:10:06 Kayla: You know, he's not a charismatic leader. He's a leader. Chris: He's a leader. Not a charismatic leader, but charismatic, to me, implies that you're, like, actually okay getting people to join you. And here's the thing, evangelizing. Kayla: He is thought of pretty highly by. In general, in Orange county, like, by populate. Sorry. By publications, by other companies, largely because of his, like, philanthropy that has to do with research and education and conservation. And he also has to be. He had to be charismatic enough to. Chris: Engineer, to engineer his rise.

1:10:49 Kayla: So he definitely has some aspects, but he's. The reclusiveness trips me up. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And the fact that we didn't know who he was. Chris: Yeah. And a lot of his rise sounded like it wasn't necessarily, like, charisma conversion related. And a lot of it was just, like, you know, making the right business decisions at the right time and identifying opportunities and knowing that you can grow something long term and gain more value. Kayla: Right. Chris: So, like, charisma doesn't really seem to. He doesn't have a 16 in that. And charisma, like, int for sure. Or is 18 the max? Shit, I'm a bad nerd. Kayla: I don't know. Chris: I don't know. For all you d and D nerds out there, I apologize. Anyway, so going. So that's our last criterion.

1:11:33 Kayla: So what do you think? Chris: They're all fairly low. Yeah, I think that this is pretty clearly cut. Not a cult. Kayla: It's just weird. Chris: But it's definitely weird. Kayla: It's hella weird. It's not a cult. But it is a weird fucking thing. Chris: I definitely. Kayla: Irvine is weird. Chris: Felt like every time I got off the highway to go into work every morning, it felt like I was kind of like, going through this invisible gate. It always felt like I was like, okay, I'm in Irvine zone now. Almost like you could feel yourself passing through that out from the real world and rebecca. So it's weird. It is. And when you're in there, the sense. The loss of. Sense of place.

1:12:18 Kayla: Yeah. You get really, like, everything is just kind of conflated. Chris: Yeah, everything's conflated. The rules, all of that make it really weird. But I don't think it's quite a cult, though, I think. Kayla: I agree. Yeah, I think it's just weird. Irvine, you weird? Chris: Okay, so the first week we had something that was, like. Right, 50 almost. Kayla: Right. Chris: Last week was heliculty. Yeah, this week was definitely weird. But on the less culty end of. Kayla: The spectrum, we have our first official just weird. Chris: No, best friends was also just weird. Kayla: I know, but we did a. The group before best friends was a cult, and then best friends was just weird.

1:13:01 Chris: Right. Kayla: So that was kind of like a. Chris: Kind of both. Kayla: It was a double dip in was second one. Chris: I think they're gonna. Kayla: This one is. There's only weird. There's no cult origins. Chris: Best friends was kind of a special snowflake, though. Like, that's for sure. That was a special one. So. Okay. Yeah, so they're just weird and. Yeah, you're right. That's the first fully officially just weird. Congratulations, city of Irvine. Kayla: You're just weird. Chris: You're just fucking weirdos. You're not actually a cult. So awesome. Kayla: Good job. Chris: Thank you for telling me the story. Kayla: You're welcome. Thank you for listening, and thank you, listeners, for listening. Thank you for continuing on this journey with us. It is so much fun to be learning about these things that we've always had, you know, inclinations or inklings about.

1:13:49 Chris: Yeah, yeah. I just. I can't believe that I worked there for eight years, knew about the logo. Kayla: Right. Chris: Knew that it was a strange place, knew that it was Stepford, Yale. I knew all these things. And I had no idea that there was, like, this, like, God like, billionaire behind it. I had no idea. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: That's crazy. Kayla: Donald Bren sliding to our DM's. Chris: Yeah. Thanks, Donald, for the. I had. I got a job there. I was. That was good. Thank you. Kayla: Thank you. Chris: I guess. Kayla: Don't crush us with your money. Chris: All right, that's it for this week. Kayla: That's it for this week. If you would like if you would like us to issue any corrections. If you're done, Bren and you want to yell at us if you have an idea for a cult or just weird topic, please email us at cult or just weirdmail.com. Or you can tweet at us. Ultra just weird. And we are doing nothing but sitting there staring and waiting for you to talk to us.

1:14:44 Chris: I'm staring at it right now. Kayla: Exactly. Chris: I'm very lonely. Kayla: Rate review subscribe Share is that what you're supposed to say? Chris: I think so. Okay. Kayla: Find us wherever. Chris: Check with lots of money. Kayla: Listen to our podcast. Wherever you listen to podcasts. Chris: That's right. Kayla: And I'm Kayla. Chris: And I'm Chris. And this has been cult or just weird.