0:24 Kayla: Have I told you about the podcast I just finished listening to? Chris: What was the podcast? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I finally listened to the escaping NXivM podcast. Oh, and you should. I know you should. Chris: Are we doing them on the show? Kayla: No, we can't, because they're absolutely a cult. Chris: Well, I did. Creativity. Kayla: There is even less of a question about NXiVM, really. Chris: Creativity had, like, weird religion, weirdness, and. Kayla: Nxivm was an MLM. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Like, straight up. It was. It somehow managed to be an MLM, a sex cult where people got branded and called slaves. And it was also extremely sexist. Extreme. It was all about how, like, men are better than women and, like, women.

1:12 Chris: Sounds like the trifecta right there a thousand times. Sexism, cultism, mlmism. Kayla: But it's a very good podcast. Highly recommend listening to it. It's very upsetting. Chris: How do I join Nxivm? Because as a dude, it seems like. Kayla: You still can, I think. Chris: Can you seriously? Kayla: I don't know. Keith Ranieri definitely still has, like, devotees. Chris: Of course he does. Yeah. Kayla: Even though, like, a lot of those people are in real big trouble and he's probably going to jail. I think he is in jail, but I think he's probably gonna get. I actually don't really know the status of the court case right now. Chris: We live in a weird time. Kayla: But, yeah. So the podcast is. It's a CBC podcast, a canadian podcast, and the journalist who, like, dos the podcast, who is the host and shit, is all, like, friends. Like, he was childhood friends with, like, the NXIVM power couple in Canada. Like, the.

2:12 Chris: Oh, by the way, anybody that doesn't know anything that we're talking about. Keith Ranieri was, like, the head of NXIVM, created NXIVM. Kayla: NXIvm was a. It build itself as a self help, spiritual growth type group. Keith Ranieri was the leader of that. He was, like, an enlightened renunciate. He does call himself a renunciate. Chris: What does that mean? Kayla: Like, qinghai, she was a renunciate. Somebody who just, like, still. Chris: What does that mean? I don't remember. Kayla: Renounces, like, all of their earthly belongings. Chris: And, like, oh, like, the St. Francis. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: You're like, I don't need all this. Kayla: Shit because I have enlightenment, right. Chris: And I have sex slaves that I can brand. Kayla: Right. I don't think St. Francis had that.

2:53 Chris: He may not have. Kayla: So. Yeah, so that was. That was the, like, front for this cult, basically. It was an. It was a self help group with, like, education centers. And, like, it was a real big deal. Like, people. Oh, no. Like, the center in, like, I think it was Vancouver or the one in Canada was like. It's like a huge, big deal. And, like, the reason why the one in Canada got big was because that's where they got some of their celebrities, because so much shit showed they had celebrities. Allison Mack. Chris: Oh, right. That was part of it. Kayla: That's how they got their celebrities, was because a lot of shows shot there, like Smallville. Kristen Croick was in it, too. Chris: No shit. Kayla: Yeah. So that was, like a thing. Chris: Did they get branded?

3:33 Kayla: I think Alison Mack probably did. Potentially. She potentially did. I don't think Kristin Croick was in it for that long. Allison Mack was also very, very high up in it. So she may not have been at that level of getting branded, but the whole, like, branding situation, like, just go listen to the podcast. Because if you're wondering how self help has anything to do with, like, branding and then also MLM, it all ties together. The whole thing about the, like, the self help group is that, like, are. Chris: You sure we shouldn't do that? Are you sure this isn't an episode about it right now? We could just call it right now and just be done. Kayla: No, because we have to finish our part two of tulpas. But for next, I just wanted to share. But because we're not going to do it on this podcast, I wanted to give a shout out to this other podcast that's already done it. And literally, the way this self help group ran was that, like, if you got in and you bought enough shit, then you had to start recruiting. You choose to start recruiting other people to come and take some classes. So it had, like, this whole MLM component.

4:31 Chris: Right. Kayla: It's very interesting. It's very fascinating. Go check out the CBC podcast. I think the podcast series is called Uncover, but season one is escaping nxivmousen. It's fantastic. Chris: I can't wait. Kayla: Highly recommend. Chris: Oh, my God. Hey, actually, there was something I just thought of an earlier episode of ours. Weren't you just watching something on YouTube about some recent developments with Cicada? Kayla: Yeah, I was watching a YouTube video from a gentleman who actually spoke with us on our podcast. Chris: Is he the guy that. Kayla: Not Populi. It was the guy that gave us. Chris: A shout out on a series. Yes. Kayla: I think he's called Pond Underscore. Pond underscore on YouTube. And, yeah, he released a new video recently. I'm sure there's other videos and other content and other posts out there about it, but apparently there's been some development happening in the 3301 community. Some people are starting to, like, solve the Libra Primus in ways that they haven't been solved before, and it has to.

5:31 Chris: And that was the book of secrets, basically. Kayla: That was the book. That's the last thing that Cicada gave us before they left. And I was kind of like, remember how there was differing opinions about whether, like, they purposefully gave us this, the. Chris: Unsolvable thing, so they could peace out. Kayla: Or if it was just really hard to solve? And I think the fact that there's been some further development maybe kind of. Chris: Points to the latter. Kayla: Points to. Yeah, like, no, this is solvable. Like, somebody found interesting. Somebody figured out that the drawings in the Libra primus are, like, basically straight up, not copied, but, like, very closely inspired by a book that Jung did. He had this, like, I think it was called the Red Book. And it was just these crazy, like, I forget what the actual content is, but, like, the drawings, these, like, crazy ass dreamscapes. And so there's. There's something afoot with 3301 right now. I recommend, or I implore our listeners to go check it out. I myself haven't.

6:26 Chris: That's exciting. Kayla: I haven't dipped my toes too much into it. I watched this video. I'm very excited about it. We'll have to look more into it. Yeah, but, yeah. So that's the update for Cicada. Something's happening. Chris: Sweet. Kayla: Go check it out. Get to it. Get solving solvers. Chris: Nice. Kayla: That's my business. Chris: I don't have any business. You had two businesses. Kayla: Well, I had one business and you gave me a business. Chris: Oh, that's true. I did give you the business. Yeah. I don't know. Kayla: Don't say that. That's getting cut out. Chris: Why? Kayla: Your parents listened to this. Chris: Oh, okay. So, like, what about the jokes we made last week? Kayla: Some of those are pretty unsavory that you made. Chris: We as a team. Kayla: Definitely. Chris: You make the jokes.

7:06 Kayla: Definitely you. Are you ready? Are you ready? Chris: I'm back in a cult. I've been playing a lot of magic arena. Kayla: You are extremely in a cult lately. Chris: You know what? I could just. I could go into that, but let's just move on to the actual content. Kayla: That'll be your next episode. Chris: I. Kayla: Somebody come save my husband from the cult that he is in. Chris: I intend to do an episode on the gathering. Kayla: Thank God. Chris: At some point. Kayla: Are you ready to talk about what we're supposed to talk about? Chris: I mean, I'm not ready, actually. No, I'm super ready because I'm so excited. You said you talked to actual tulpas? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Oh, I'm pumped. Kayla: And their hosts, and we've got a lot to get through. Let's go. Okay, so for anybody listening right now, this is part two of our episode series on tulpas. If you haven't listened to episode 13 yet, I highly recommend you go back and listen, as that was basically our introduction to the topic. And today we're kind of getting into the nitty gritty. Nitty gritty.

8:02 Chris: Nitty gritty. Kayla: The nitty gritty. And diving deeper into the tulpa community. So if you haven't listened to episode 13, you might get a little lost. So I say go listen to it. Chris: Go back and listen to it, or ask your host to go listen to it for you, please. Kayla: Right. Today, instead, we're gonna talk about some of the conversations I've had, the way the community operates, like those kinds of things. Chris: Wait. Oh, my God. Kayla: What? Chris: You posted this on the Tulpa Reddit, didn't you? Or at least the previous episode, right? Yeah. Kayla: Well, I didn't post it. I posted it in the comment thread. I was planning on waiting until this episode came out and doing another post with both the episodes. Chris: Got it. Do you think that, like, an actual tulpa will listen to our podcast after you post this? There, like, somebody already? Somebody. Oh, no shit. Are you seriously? That is so dope.

8:53 Kayla: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Cause I've been. I've been chatting with folks over there. Chris: Right. But did the host listen or do their tulpas listen? Kayla: Let me check my. Hold on. Chris: Oh, my God. I'm going to have a fit. Kayla: My tulpa and I just finished listening to the first episode. Yes. Yeah. Chris: Oh, my God. I'm so excited. Kayla: Yeah. This person was very. This person and this tulpa were very helpful. Chris: Oh, my God. I'm so excited that it's helpful. Listen to my podcast. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Kayla: At least one. Chris: At least one. Probably more. All right, sorry. Go ahead. Kayla: So let's do a quick recap and bring everyone back up to speed. And since we didn't really make any call in our last episode about whether or not this topic was a cult, I'm gonna go ahead and recap our cult criteria first so our listeners know what to look out for as we continue the conversation. One key.

9:41 Chris: Here's your cheat sheet. Kayla: Yeah. Charismatic leader. Two, expected harm. Three, population of the cult, or whether or not it's niche, four, ritual, five, percentage of life consumed, and six, antifactuality. So those are your criterions. Chris: Yeah. Also our criteria. Kayla: Criteria? Chris: Criterion is singular. Kayla: Okay, criterion then. Chris: Yes, exactly. Kayla: Okay. Back to the topic at hand. Today we're talking about tulpas, which are basically imaginary friends for adults. Tulpas are autonomous, sentient beings or personalities that live entirely in the imagination of adults. Generally, people who create tulpas are called tulpamancers, and they're able to create their tulpas after lengthy periods of intense, focused concentration. Though this isn't always the case, and we'll expand on that today. Well, it seems strange at first.

10:30 Chris: Wait, what's not always the case? Kayla: That tulpamancers create their tulpas after lengthy periods of intense focus concentration. Chris: Sometimes they're created in other ways. Kayla: Yes. Ooh, yes. We'll get to that. It might seem strange at first blush to talk about adults with imaginary friends, but it's important to remember that while few studies have been done on tulpas directly, there have been numerous studies done on the effects of imaginary friends on the lives of children. Children with imaginary friends tend to be more social, more verbal, and more creative than other children, and often grow up into adults that actually hold on to those traits. Adolescents and teenagers have also been known to keep imaginary friends from childhood, or they create new imaginary friends when they're teens. And many famous adults have been known to keep imaginary friends, including Agatha Christie, Niccolo Machiavelli, and Isaac Newton.

11:18 Kayla: Tulpas we know them in their western, more Reddit based concept today have roots in ancient tibetan buddhist meditative practices, though it's hard to parse if these practices centered around creating sentient, autonomous thought forms, or if those practices were more similar to concepts such astral projection and reincarnation. Chris: Isn't the Dalai Lama a tulpa? Kayla: The Dalai lama is a tulku. Chris: Tulku. Kayla: There's multiple different tibetan languages. There's a lot of room for misinterpretation and incorrect interpretation and mistranslation. So one of the words that eventually became what we know as tulpa is tulku. And that refers to spiritual teachers like the Dalai lama, who are reincarnated and continue to teach.

12:01 Chris: Feels like it's not super similar to what a tulpa is, no? Yeah. Kayla: Either way, tulpas as the concept that we know them took hold in western occultism in the late 19th and 20th centuries, and they became somewhat popularized in mainstream culture via tv shows such as the X Files, Supernatural, and adventure Time. And they eventually made their way as a topic to four chan and then read it where the most well known tulpa community exists today. So that's kind of the recap on the community. I'll run through some of the vocab words using the community as well. Some of the words that we actually talked about last week, some of them, like, more established standard vocab words, are actually a little bit controversial, which I learned during the research for this episode.

12:43 Chris: Within the community. Kayla: Within the community. Okay, we'll get. Again. We'll get to that later. Generally, though, a person with a tulpa is called a host. They create their tulpas through a process called forcing. Interact with their tulpas in an imaginary world called the Wonderland. Chris: Oh, yeah. And that's a paracosm, right? Kayla: It's similar to a paracosm. Chris: Yes, similar. Okay. Kayla: Or it can't be. But again, we'll also talk about that in a little bit. Tulpas and hosts can sometimes switch, which means that the tulpa takes control of the physical body. And those are just a handful of the main concepts. So do we feel caught up? Chris: Let me ask my tulpa. Kayla: Do we feel caught up? Chris: Yes. Kayla: Good. Let's talk about the tulpa community itself. Last week, we mostly talked about an outside observer's perspective on the Tulpa Mansi community. So let's kind of start there again, and we'll ease our way into, like, actual tulpa. Dumb. Let's discuss two things. First, one, ways in which the tulpomancy community is a nice, constructive, supportive place, and then ways in which the tulpomancy community is less nice, destructive, or even cult like. But spoiler alert, I'm gonna push some of that to the very end to make a nice dramatic ending.

13:51 Chris: Ooh, yeah. Nice storytelling. Kayla: First, I wanna talk about my experience with interacting with the tulpa community on Reddit. I literally only have nice things to say here. When I first posted in the Tulpa subreddit about a month ago, asking if anyone would be interested in chatting with me about their tulpa Mancy experiences, I actually got a little nervous. It was kind of. It was kind of the first time that I truly entered community myself, especially one that I wasn't connected to in some way and asked for help. Like, yes, I joined teal tribe, and yes, I definitely asked for help in the like, cicada 3301 subreddit, and I received excellent help and amazing support from the folks over there. But this, I don't know. It just felt different for some reason, like this.

14:31 Chris: Well, cicada, you had done stuff yourself, right? So you could kind of go into it and be like, oh, I've. I've been doing this myself. So there's my segue. Kayla: If I had been interested, if I had been doing topo Mancy myself, maybe it would have felt less weird. And this felt less akin to just like, going into the solver community and more akin to, like, going into, like, cicada 3301 itself and being like, hey, guys, what's up? Chris: Hey, how's it going? How'd you find the secret base? Kayla: They'd probably be pretty pissed about it. Chris: Did you storm area 51? Kayla: Oh, I did see a post. I didn't read all of it because I got real bored and I was at work. But I did see a post in the 3301 subreddit where somebody was like, I think I know somebody who was actually a founding member of 3301. What? They definitely weren't, but it was still the headline grabbed my attention.

15:18 Chris: Okay, was it Jeffrey Epstein? Kayla: It was definitely Jeffrey Epstein. We'll talk about him a little bit more, a little bit later. Chris: Wait, seriously? Kayla: Yeah, just briefly. But he does come up. Chris: Okay, so, yeah. Kayla: So Jeffrey Epstein didn't think we'd be talking about him. Chris: No, but, nope. I mean, aside from the, like, little, you know, ha, little joke. But apparently there's a tulpa relation to that as well. That's, yeah. Would not have predicted that. Kayla: So going back to what were doing, me jumping into the Tulpa community and asking for help, I was entering a generally peaceful, chill, self contained group and straight up just asking if anyone wanted to come on a podcast where I would talk about the group, where the only possible conclusions I could come to were tulpas were a cult or just weird.

16:07 Chris: Like, I know. Yeah, that makes it a little tough. Makes it a little tough. Yeah, I thought about that. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: The ship is sailed, though. Our podcast is called what it's called. Kayla: We generally haven't gotten pushback on our podcast name. And I like to think and hope that most folks know that you and I are kind of coming from a bit of a tongue in cheek place. And, like, we know that most things don't conveniently fit into these two kind of insulting boxes. Chris: Okay. But it's just kind of like, weird is not insulting. In my opinion. Kayla: Weird can be very insulting. I know. Chris: In our opinion, weird socially, it's a negative connotation. I know. Kayla: So you and I don't think weird is insulting, but somebody else might think it's insulting. Chris: Right? Kayla: Again, here. I wasn't sure what to expect. And honestly, after I asked, everyone was super duper nice.

16:52 Chris: That's awesome. Kayla: They all wanted to talk. I was honestly blown away by the number of responses I got of people willing to share their experiences with me and in like, really intense detail. And we're talking about it. Chris: You said it was like you were telling me. It was hard to even. Kayla: It was hard to get through everything because it was such. Because part of it was that just. That there was a lot. But another part of it was that it was so fascinating that it was difficult to, like, even think about organizing these stories because the stories were just so interesting that I would lose myself in them because I've got high absorption. Chris: What? Kayla: Remember we talked last week about how adults that had imaginary friends as children score higher? Absorption tests. Chris: What's an absorption test?

17:33 Kayla: Your ability to get lost in a novel. Chris: I see. Yeah, I see. Kayla: That joke was real good. And you know how I know? Cause I had to explain it. I don't even know where I was. Yay. Chris: Sick. Call back, bro. Kayla: Yup. So, okay. Yeah, so folks were really willing to talk to me, and I was surprised because this is a really private subject matter. Tulpamanswers I talked to do not share with people in their personal IRL lives the fact that they have a tulpa. And, I mean, they don't share it at all. Like, some people really haven't told any family, haven't told any friends. The only other people that know are other tulipamancers online. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: And yet here they were, willing to chat with me and answer my many, many questions about this group. And not only, that's really cool. Yeah. Like, they were kind and they were open minded and they were supportive and helpful. I had tuple manswers pointing me in the right direction on research, sharing articles and other resources with me, and just saying nice shit that they were like.

18:28 Chris: That'S a great resource. Kayla: Yeah. Like, people were even just being like, oh, I'm looking forward to checking out the podcast. Just nice things like that. So this is kind of, if you remember how I opened last week's episode. Chris: Talked about imaginary friends. Kayla: Yeah. And I talked about how my topic that I chose had me questioning the premise of the podcast. Chris: Oh, this. I remember that now. Kayla: So this is kind of what had me questioning premise of our podcast. Chris: Like, oh, yeah, but we're gonna do that again. Kayla: Absolutely. But like, this was my first experience with it. Like, these folks were so kind and so supportive. And it just kind of made me feel like a dick to go, okay, well, either this is a cult or it's weird. Chris: I mean, we did that with cicada, right? Yeah, but cicada was like, it's either cult or just weird. Kayla: Okay, but first of all.

19:09 Chris: And I was even like, it's a beneficial. Kayla: That community is maybe a little more toxic in some ways. And also, I don't know if. I don't know. It just didn't. It doesn't feel like the same thing. It's not a private matter. You know what I mean? Necessarily. It's just right. Chris: These are people's, like, private hobbies almost. Whereas, like, cicada is, like, more of, like, a public hobby also. I don't know. Kayla: Yeah. Like, with cicada, this one had me going back to, like, some shit just doesn't fit in the binary. And. Chris: And yet you choose to do. Kayla: We shouldn't consider ourselves the arbiters that we've decided. Maybe we should have a nicer, less judgy title. But that's.

19:52 Chris: No, we're the arbiters. We're the arbiter. Look, okay? People like, the. Our adoring public loves drama, okay? And then when you have to force something into a binary, it's super dramatic. It's like, sports. Like, sports is never fair. There's never a team that, like, fits into a neat, like, greatest at who's the greatest basketball player, who is the greatest. Kayla: Sports isn't the greatest or worse sport. Chris: But what I'm trying to say also. Kayla: We should definitely call sports greatest or worse. Chris: Sports greatest or worst. That's our new podcast. No, it's not that. I didn't bring that up because it's a binary. I brought that up because it's like, there's fun in debating things that ultimately can't really be answered and may not be relevant. And that's kind of what we're doing.

20:38 Kayla: Would you rather. Chris: Yeah, exactly. Like, it doesn't matter whether we sit here and call something a cult or just weird or whatever. I think as long as we apply enough context that it doesn't feel like we're doing anybody a disservice. Kayla: Well, either way, the Tulpa Masters were all kind to me, and I apologize in advance to anyone I spoke with who may be offended by our title. Thank you again for chatting with me. Sorry. I think tulpas are weird, but as far as the kindness and support, honestly, I. I just. I kind of get the sense that this is how the community operates. Chris: As a whole, that's pretty nice. Kayla: But again, this is Reddit, so I don't want to say that this is some, like, perfect drama free community. It's, like, not toxic at all. Chris: Well, everything has its Internet.

21:19 Kayla: The Internet kind of lends itself to that. I don't think the anonymity and general culture on Reddit is really conducive to, like, a totally nice drama free space. Chris: Right. Kayla: But from my reading, it is largely a supportive place. Again, these are people who oftentimes don't tell people they know IRL that they have tulpas. Like, even their best friends and their siblings and tulpas are a huge part of their lives. Like, this is literally somebody that they live with. Twenty four seven, and they can't share it with anyone else. Chris: Oh, that's crazy. Kayla: And it takes hours and hours of work to get to the point of having a tulpa, and your tulpa lives with you in your head. So these are really big secrets. And I think because of the, like, gravity of that secret, having a tulpa might be a little socially isolating in.

22:02 Chris: Some ways, or at least that aspect of you. But that's why it's nice that then they have the community. Kayla: Right? Like, when you have to keep a major secret, you can end up feeling alienated. So, yeah, I like that the community generally seems like a place where people with secrets can come together and be unguarded and open and, like, that's such a necessary resource for literally everybody in the world. And I'm just glad that tulpamancers have that with each other. Chris: That's why I'm glad I finally got that white supremacy thing off my chest a few episodes ago. Cause, man, that secret was just weighing me down. The fact that I was into that. Kayla: Is not a funny joke in 2019. We are not white supremacists on this podcast. It's not a funny joke to joke about.

22:47 Chris: Wow, you are really isolating me right now. Kayla: Good. You should be. But, like, the life after hate people. If you want to come back, there's a space for you at the table. Chris: I don't know. Kayla: We should stop joking about this. It's not funny. It's not a perfect community, but I've seen a lot of support given and received on that subreddit, like, hosts form online relationships with other hosts. Tulpas form online friendships with other tulpas. Tulpas make friends with other tulas. It's really cool to see, like, I love when I'm, like, browsing a tulpa thread. And, like, somebody posts and then another tulpa goes like, OMG, so excited to see you. And then the person will post again as their tulpa would be like, oh, hey, King Kong, whatever your name is. I don't know, dude.

23:30 Chris: People have giant ape tulpas. Kayla: Probably sick. And again, like, whereas that anonymity kind of maybe makes for some toxicity in Reddit in general, in particular, tulpas can. It allows tulpa manswers to share as much about their tulpas as they want without fear of judgment or shame because they get to be anonymous. And, like, some tulpas even have a following. Chris: Whoa. Kayla: Like an Internet following. We mentioned, are there tulpas that have. Chris: Like, their own twitters and stuff? Kayla: I don't know about that, potentially. Chris: Just when you said following, it made. Kayla: Me like, oh, well, there's this. Okay, do you remember we mentioned in, we talked about the vice article about tulpas in the previous episode? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And there was that one tulpa named Suksi who was like, oh, yeah, we totally bang in the Wonderland.

24:15 Chris: Right, right. Kayla: She's amazing. She has a following. People draw, like, fan art of her. Chris: I feel like I've, like, seen that name or something. Maybe I've seen somebody on World of Warcraft that, like, had that name, probably. Kayla: Yeah. Like, there's a whole tumblr. It's like, for asksooksie. Chris: And is that how you pronounce it? Kayla: S I o u x s I E. I think I said Susie in the previous episode and then doing more research. I think it's pronounced Suksi. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: I think. So, like, yeah, this Tulpa herself is the one getting interviewed by gonzo journalists from Vice. And, like, has a Tumblr and has fan art. Chris: What the fuck? Kayla: And, like, she's probably not the only one. Like, I didn't spend much time on Tumblr for this one, but there is a fairly large tulpa and Tulpamancer presence there as well.

25:00 Chris: Does Sucsy's host get any fame or attention at all? Or is it just like, who cares? Kayla: From what I remember from the article, the host preferred to remain fairly anonymous. And holy crap, they run the social media that's related to Succi. Like, they have Sucis host has a Reddit. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: And it has a Reddit handle. And they're very, this is incredible. They're like a very frequent poster in the Tulpas community and they run the ask Zuc Tumblr. Like, yeah, how do I follow this person. Chris: Can you help me follow, can you help me become a fan person of this later? Kayla: Yeah, we'll do it later. So in addition to all this, Discord is actually also a large part of the tele community. You might remember we talked about Discord with the 3301 episode as well. It's just basically a voice chat server. It's like, it's basically a forum, but instead of typing, you talk. You always get to talk to each other. A lot of tulpamancers and it's really interesting to me. A lot of tulpamancers have or participate in various discord servers dedicated to all things tulpa.

26:05 Chris: Interesting. Kayla: There's not just like one Tulpa Discord server. Like, there's a bunch. Like, some channels are more private, like, just for, like, friends. Some are for newbies, some are for, like, older tulpas. But like, during my research, I kept coming back to discord over and over and again. That makes me really happy that folks in this community have the means to communicate with each other in this way. Chris: What is the oldest tulpa? Kayla: I can tell you. Chris: Oh my God. Really? Kayla: How old is your oldest tulpa? Don't ask me about where I have this information from. How. Don't ask me yet about where I have this information from. I think at least one person said 88. Chris: Wait, why can't I ask you where that information's from?

26:46 Kayla: Cause we're gonna talk about it later. Chris: Oh my God. Okay. Kayla: Yeah. So we'll learn more about the community and its nice aspects and some of its not so nice aspects when I get into my conversations later on. Right now, however, let's talk about the not so nice aspects of the community. Some maybe cult like stuff. But again, we're saving the, like, real cult like stuff for the end, just again, for dramatic purposes. Chris: Right. Kayla: We mentioned last week that many tulpamancers do experience mental illness, which often drives them to the community and to tulpomancy as a whole. But while this maybe seems like a red flag at first, the mental illnesses experienced by tulpamancers are fairly common. Depression and anxiety seemed to be the big ease when I was doing my initial research.

27:28 Chris: Yeah, well, I mean, those are just endemic in the population. Kayla: Not to minimize it, but like, we all have that. Chris: It's not minimizing not everyone, but it's. Kayla: A high incidence, very common. We mentioned last week that having tulpas has actually helped many tulpa mantis with their illnesses. So, you know, not necessarily a bad thing. But I do want to highlight this as one of the ways tulpamancers may find the community and how that plays into a bigger picture. Another example of, quote unquote, finding the community carries on the traditions of western occultism. Chris: Wait, another example. Wait, I'm confused. Kayla: So one way that people find the community is because they're dealing with mental illness and looking for ways to like, fix it.

28:09 Chris: Okay. Kayla: And then another example of another way people find, quote unquote, the community carries on the traditions of western occultism in some ways. Chris: Got it. So some people find it via like mental illness, and then they kind of get into it that way. And then some people find their way into it via western occultism. Kayla: And that was by and large, the more like common answer I personally received. A lot of hosts I talked to explained to me that they discovered the concept of tulpomancy while exploring other esoteric or supernatural topics. Again, not necessarily a red flag, but maybe this highlights a possibility of tulpamancers potentially possessing some motivated reasoning when it comes to tulpas. Like if you're already kind of believing in magic, right? Does that, what does that say about the quote unquote, legitimacy of Tulpa Mancy? I'm a firm believer at this point, but just, you know, we got a skeptic ran going on here, so.

29:03 Chris: No, no, I think you're right. I think if, yeah, if it's, if you're a type of person that is into, you know, thinks that Ouija boards are real and vortexes are real and all that stuff, then you're gonna be more, I think, prone to believing other things that are not necessarily grounded in empirical science. Kayla: Like, I guess the real question is, like, if you've already bought into the occult, is tulpomancy just kind of a stop on the way down a dangerous rabbit hole? I'm not sure. Probably isn't, but just something to think about. Chris: Mm. Kayla: When I asked, well, didn't you say. Chris: There was a, sorry. Didn't you say there was a subreddit called tulpas for skeptics? Because were just talking about like being skeptical.

29:44 Kayla: Right. Chris: And you're saying that some tulpamancers maybe get into it via western occultism. Right, right. And therefore maybe have this sort of like believer sort of mentality about it. Kayla: Right. Chris: But you said there was also this big part of the community that were skeptical. Kayla: I don't know if I would say that tulpas for skeptics is a big part of the community. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I say it's a smaller part of the community, but it's its own kind of separate thing. And it's an interesting combination of people who kind of like wish the phenomenon of tulpa and tulpamancy is real, but I are maybe not quite convinced or like, have tried to create a tulpa or develop a tulpa and like, haven't been successful. It's a really interesting little place, but yeah, so there is some skepticism within the community itself, but again, that's not the case for everyone. And so when I think skepticism in general isn't present, that's when you have the potential for like dealing with something like psychologically dangerous in that way.

30:54 Chris: Right. Kayla: Not that I think tulumansity is dangerous, but gotta have both sides of that argument, right? Chris: No, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I just brought up the skeptics. Tuples for skeptics is a possible counterpoint. Kayla: When I asked some tulbam answers how they found the community, I got some of the below answers, following answers. You're not reading this, you're listening. Chris: It's below. And the flow of the podcast. Kayla: I actually found out about Tulpe through researching a lot of weird tulpe. It's a different way. Chris: Is that tulpa, plural of tulpas for this. Kayla: For this person? Chris: Excellent. Kayla: I actually found out about Tulpe through researching a lot of weird esoteric things online. I questioned just about everything reality throws at me and come up with wild theories, and I was trying to figure out if there really was a spirit world. I learned about something called astral projection and decided to research the history of all that, which led me to research theosophist societies and in turn, Tulpe. Another person said, I first learned about tulpas on YouTube in a top ten scary ritual video. It talked about tulpas. So I did more research about them and then found R. Tulpas on a link in the YouTube comments. On a Tulpa video, another person said, I was initially linked to the r tulpas discord on R Tumblr in action as a sort of example of a crazy person cult.

32:09 Kayla: The idea intrigued me though, and I ended up digging deeper and deeper until I joined Tulpa Chat, the, at the time official R. Tulpas discord server. So this person, well, they found it through somebody being like, this is a crazy cult. Another person said, I love learning about cryptids and other things that go bump in the night. So one day I decided to binge as many of these videos as I could. Chris: And cryptids are things like jackalopes and Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot. Okay. Kayla: I first learned about tulpas when I was watching a scare video titled the Tulpa phenomenon. I found r. How is it a scare video? Chris: This doesn't, you haven't presented anything. Kayla: There's a lot of creepypastas about tulpas. Chris: What's creepypasta? Kayla: Scary stories on the Internet. Chris: Got it. Kayla: There's a lot of, like, it's very ripe for that in very interesting ways.

32:54 Chris: Okay. Okay. I guess I can see that because it's like, actually, we even talked about that a little bit, that last episode where it's like, oh, my imaginary friend says, blah, blah, mommy, and it's like that. Kayla: And then there's also the devil or whatever. There's also, like, I think a big part of it is, what if you create a tulpa that's, like, secretly bad? Or what if you create a tulpa and you switch with the tulpa and then the tulpa never lets you switch back? Like that kind of thing? Chris: Oh, shit. That is scary. Kayla: Yeah. So that's a scare video. I found r tulpas from some supernatural Reddit. I want to say r witchcraft. Chris: So it's a subreddit for witchcraft. Kayla: Okay. I was looking for some hypnosis files a few years ago and saw that there were some that were supposed to create a tulpa and a guided meditation.

33:37 Chris: Oh, my God. Really? I listened to a lot of hypnosis. Kayla: Well, there you go. So you can see there's a little bit of a trend here with how some people come to tulpomancy. Right? Like kind of, yeah, we talked about scare videos. We talked about cryptid videos. We talked about other, like, cult reddits and witchcraft reddits. It's all kind of this. Chris: Like, supernatural creepy ish. Kayla: Yeah. Depending on your perspective, that can either be a neutral thing or it can be a bad thing. For me, it feels pretty neutral. People researching something interesting that, you know, maybe brush on the side of pseudoscience or whatever, but then they discover something important for themselves. For a more skeptical person, they might again view this as bit of a downward spiral into uncomfortable pseudo science territory. I'll let our listeners decide how they feel about it. How do you feel about it?

34:27 Chris: As a listener of my own podcast, I feel. Well, I don't know. Like, clearly, like, a lot of the stuff they're talking about, at least several of those things aren't really, like, scientific. But, like, I also, I don't know, like, we watch cryptid videos. I don't know if they're watching them because they find the topic fun and interesting or if they're watching them because, like, they think they're actually gonna go out and find Bigfoot. Kayla: Right. Chris: So without having that context of, like, why they're consuming this content that you're talking about. Kayla: Right. Chris: It's hard for me to say whether I feel like that's bad. That's not a great word. It's hard for me to say whether I feel like that's a check mark.

35:10 Kayla: In the cult column. Chris: Yeah, a check mark in the old cult column. You know, irrational, whatever. Kayla: Right. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It's tough for me to say, like, I think it could be, but it also could just be like, I'm consuming this content and then. Oh, that led me to this other thing. Kayla: Right. Well, I want to read you one more story because this actually comes from a person who helps run r. Tulpas for skeptics. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Which we mentioned last week, and we mentioned just a few minutes ago, R. Tulpasforskeptics, in case you were a little lost, describes itself like this, a subreddit about tulpas. For those who are skeptical but nonetheless intrigued or concerned, post your thoughts. Worries. Yeah, post your thoughts or worries or attempts to create one if you're willing to make an experiment of that. But remember, no one owes you their belief or agreement. So when I asked about how this Reddit user found out about tulpas, their Reddit username is Chenaile Fior, and they said, I found out about tulpas on a lucid dreaming forum back in 2014. Dreamviews used to have a sub forum dedicated to them. My reaction was a mixture of a few things. My first thought was this had to be an elaborate joke. Its way too good to be true.

36:16 Kayla: You can really create an imaginary friend that will react on its own. It's possible to trick your mind into actually seeing and hearing a dragon all day. That's too awesome to exist. Life isn't that cool. And of course, there was also a lot of discomfort about the idea of adults parading around their imaginary friends. So that's just a little bit of another perspective on it. Chris: Okay, so that was the tulpas. You said that was the tulpas for skeptics person. Kayla: Yes. Chris: With that story. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Yeah. So I guess I hadn't, I don't know if I had thought about it the way that they describe, because that does sound rad? Like, if I could, like, walk around with my own Pete's dragon and, like, as far as my brain is concerned, there's a real Pete's dragon just walking behind me and, like, having a conversation with me. And, like, that's. I've hallucinated that, so I really feel like I see that. That'd be sick as hell.

37:06 Kayla: That is so interesting to me because, like, I do not find it cool at all. Chris: What? Really? Kayla: I. Sure it's cool to see a dragon, but, like, the. You have somebody with you all of the time that I'm out. I understand why that's attractive to a lot of. Chris: Is that how it works for every single one of these supplements? Or is it like, can you dismiss them? Like, you can dismiss your. Wow. Pet. Kayla: Really? Chris: I don't. Are you sure? Kayla: Yeah. We can talk about it a little bit more later because I don't want to, like, spoil some stuff that we're talking about in the future, but, like, not really. Like, they can. They can go. Chris: Okay, I went back to a little bit weird. Kayla: They can go inactive or non active where, like, you're, you know, they're kind of just, like, maybe go to sleep and you're not worried about that, but just even. It just. It sounds like so much work, and it makes me tired to think about. And also, like, even though I consider myself a very lonely person, like everybody else in the fucking world, I love to be alone for long periods of time. And so I don't. I personally don't see. I don't. I'm not attracted to it. I don't see the appeal. I understand the appeal for other people, but for me, I have no desire.

38:20 Chris: Do you feel like when we hang out, it's alone time for you or. No. Kayla: Hanging out with you is the closest I get to alone time. Chris: So maybe that would be similar with a tulpa. Like, if it was your tulpa, you might feel like it's alone time. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Even if it's with them. Kayla: You're right. Chris: I don't know. I'm just speculating. I don't have one. Kayla: It just. Chris: Yeah, I see what you're saying about, like, the constant nature of it. I guess in my. In my mind, I was totally thinking of it like a wow pat that you could just, like, summon and dismiss. Kayla: No. Chris: But it still would be pretty cool to have a dragon following you around. Kayla: Yeah, no, it would. We'll talk more about dragons later. Chris: Okay. It could be, like, a sexy dragon. Kayla: It can be whatever. Well, actually. What.

39:05 Chris: How did that. What? Kayla: No, we'll get to that. Chris: There's no way that I just referenced something that's later in this episode. Kayla: Yes, you just did. Chris: I don't even think I should have said that. Kayla: Yeah, you shouldn't have, but that's okay. Chris: Oh my God. Kayla: Now we can talk about it later. Chris: Great. Kayla: So in the meantime, let's go back to what another Reddit user. This is Reddit user graps 224 said about their tulpa discovery. This is the person who said, I was initially linked to the r tulpas discord in r Tumblr in action as a sort of example of a crazy person cult. So I know we talked about Tumblr in action earlier, but I really just want to tell you guys what Tumblr in action is about. So we're talking about it now. Tumblr in action is a subreddit. That's the name of the subreddit. And it's where people post screengrabs of particularly egregious posts and memes on Tumblr, which is another social media site that, again, allows for some level of anonymity, but it's less about sharing in forums and more about blogging.

40:00 Kayla: So, like, sharing your experience, like either sharing like, pictures you've taken or art you've drawn or things like that you like. It's a more visual. Chris: And don't you, like, follow people the. Kayla: Way you do on Twitter? Yeah, you follow people like you do on Twitter, but again, it's less about following, like, celebrities and things like that and more about just following other people that are generally in your community that you find interesting or shared interests and stuff. Yeah, the same shows you watch or the same, like, spiritual beliefs you have or social beliefs you have. Chris: Just in case there's some really non Internet savvy users as a part of our listenership. And you're not super familiar with Twitter. Even Twitter, you can just follow people and then, like, the newsfeed is very, like, very much like Facebook.

40:43 Kayla: Right. Chris: It's just that you see stuff in your feed, but it's only from the shorter Facebook, only from the people you follow. Kayla: Right. Chris: And then Tumblr is like that, except instead of being, like, celebrity oriented, it's more just like, I'm gonna follow these people that are into my interests. I'm gonna follow this guy that posts the gathering art or whatever. Kayla: Tumblr also has a bit of reputation as being very like, rah, social justice. And like, that's kind of what Tumblr in action is about, like, it generally posts. Chris: That's where you joined that cult. Kayla: Yeah, exactly. It's fuck you. I was a social justice warrior from day fucking one. Chris: You were like a social justice squire bitch. Kayla: I was on a protest line when I was in first fucking grade. Suck my dick. Picketed with the teachers that were striking at my school.

41:31 Chris: I mean, there's nothing shameful about being a squire. Kayla: I was not a squire. I was birthed a knight. And now I have grown into a kingdom. That's how it works, right? You become a knight, then you become a king eventually. Chris: Right, exactly. You just have to pay your dues. Kayla: Yeah, it's capitalism. So, yeah, so Tumblr in action is about Tumblr posts that go way overkill on the social justice, or, like. Chris: And it's, like, cringey. Kayla: So it's generally posts that go way overkill on the social justice or in get to be cringey. Or it's posts that try so hard to be woke, they end up being offensive, that kind of thing. Chris: Okay, so, and this is just to recap, we're on Reddit, so Reddit's its own forum, and then on Reddit, we're posting cringeworthy screen caps, screenshots from Tumblr. Tumblr is its own blog community, okay?

42:27 Kayla: Like, a Tumblr in action post might be like, a white person getting mad at somebody's, like, Twitter photo of some other white person using chopsticks. Because, like, saying that's cultural appropriation. That's, like, a very bad example of maybe a Tumblr in action post. Okay, r Tumblr in action is not really my favorite place on Reddit because while they often highlight foolish people, I generally find it kind of mean spirited. But that's just me, not an objective claim. Anyway, graps 224 found out about tulpas in r tulpas here because Tumblr in action was comparing it to a cult. Chris: Okay, strike one. Kayla: Is that strike one? Chris: This person found out about them from Tumblr in action.

43:09 Kayla: Right. Because they were being like, ooh, tulpas are a cult on Tumblr. Chris: Got it. No. I don't know. Like, yeah, they use the word, but you didn't make them sound like the most. Kayla: I know, but that's, like, my bias. I used to go on Tumblr a lot. I haven't been on Tumblr in ages. Chris: Yeah. Ever since they took the porn. Kayla: Didn't help. Chris: I know. Yeah. I don't know if I'd call it a strike. Maybe huh. Kayla: Interesting. Chris: Yeah, maybe. Kayla: Maybe a t. So either way, whatever we feel about this, graps 224 clearly is a bit of a skeptic when it comes to tulpas. But after doing their own research and learning more and hanging out in our slush tulpas, they decided to give it a try. And graps created his own tulpa, named Vera.

44:00 Chris: Okay. Kayla: I initially made Vera out of mockery and curiosity. Mockery? Yeah. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I didn't believe it would work, nor that it would be a permanent thing. Suffice to say that a year and a half later, I didn't believe that for long. If I'm honest with forethought, I believe I was deluding myself for at least the first couple of months. Vera doesn't remember a lot of stuff from around that time. There isn't a whole lot she says was actually her. In my personal belief. I think part of creating a tulpa is being able to delude yourself. Until you manage to make that delusion a reality, the community is. Chris: That's very honest. Kayla: The community is generally pretty terrible. Chris: Oh, really? Kayla: Tulpa Mancy has had a very bad history, jumping from four chan to forums to finally Reddit and discord being their main communal hubs. As I mentioned, due to the nature of the beast, a lot of people with closed minds will completely disregard it. And since it's not for everyone, there's a large number of people who won't even get into Tulpa Mansi after hearing about it. Tulpa Mansi lends itself excellently to people with dreams of escapism, fantasticals, and people with incredibly overactive imaginations. There's many tulpa communities out there where being the weirdest one in the room is a badge of honor. The number of people obsessed with.

45:07 Chris: Oh, he's the w word. Kayla: Yeah. The number of people obsessed with furries and my little pony is absurd. Tulpas already have a terrible image since they are so commonly associated with schizophrenics, the mentally unwell, and so on, to be associated with furries and brownies as well. Two of the most hated communities online. I try to keep my distance. I'm not a terribly large fan of being weird for the sake of being weird. So that's graps interpretation of the community. Chris: That is a really interesting, like, it feels like he's just got, like, a bit of cognitive dissonance going on there where, like, part of it's like, oh, this is weird, and they're weirdos. But then part of, it's like I'm doing it myself, and I don't want to be weird. Kayla: I think it's actually, it is weird.

45:48 Chris: But I don't want to be weird. Kayla: Right. I think. I think it makes sense that sometimes the community around something that you like isn't a community that you like. Chris: Oh, actually, hey, speaking of the gathering. Kayla: Is that of a shitty community? Chris: No, no, not really. I mean, I can't really say anymore since the last time I played, like, a lot was probably a good, like, 1015 years ago, which is insane. But, I mean, I do remember, you know, I used to play with my friends a lot, and then we would. So we'd play, like, at home, right? And that's like, oh, we're just normal friends playing, but then we would also go to the comic book store, and there would be some normal friends playing there. And then there would also be, like, there'd be some people there that were.

46:32 Kayla: People that you don't necessarily want to be friends. Chris: Kind of weird. Yeah. And then sometimes we would go even to, like, you know, like a big tournament thing, right. And there would be people there who would be like, oh, man. Like, I'm a nerd, but, like, dude, like, oh, and all the smell. There was such a bad smell at those places. Like, the bo was just. Kayla: I mean, that's also the nature of, like, a convention beast. Chris: It is. But as someone who's been multiple times to Comic Con, it's different. Which is also nerds, right? Not even close. Not even remotely close. Well, but I'm part of the community. Kayla: So I get that. For me, it's similar with, like, tumblr. Like, yes, I'm an SJW and yes, blah, blah. But, like, I don't like to necessarily identify myself as, like, a tumblr person in public because of.

47:16 Chris: Right, because of the associations and. Kayla: Yeah, because of aspects of the community that I'm not particularly into. Or again, like, different shows, like Rick and Morty. Not a huge fan of some aspects of that fandom. Or, like, yeah, there's other shows. Yeah, show is great. Love the show. Fandom less so even, like, breaking bad, like, some of the fandom for breaking Bad is, like, kind of gross and toxic. Chris: Oh, man. So now. Now we're kind of, like, back into the. Our fandoms cults and then that. That maybe this maybe tulpa community is a cult. I don't know. Kayla: Maybe. Chris: I mean, the only thing about it, though, is that there's also, like, a little bit of, like, elitism. And that sort of, like, well, I like this community. Like, I like magic the gathering. But then I'm gonna go to these tournaments and, like, make fun of these other nerds who are probably also doing the same thing with me and my friends who just think we're better. I don't know. Like, I can. I totally get the. I'm a part of a community, and I'm not sure about the fandom.

48:13 Kayla: Right. Chris: I just. I like the product. Kayla: Right. Chris: But I just. I always felt, like, a little bit like that with the whole magic thing. I don't know if that applies here. Kayla: Well, no, I think it does. And, like, I'm not gonna say that I necessarily agree with this interpretation. Like, I don't. I don't know if I agree with the idea that, like, folks are out on r topas trying to out weird each other. That's not really something that I've seen. I've also spent a lot less time in the community. Chris: Right. Kayla: Than this person that I'm talking to. And if that is the case, like, that's definitely a bit of a negative when it comes to the community. Like, if this community is a bunch of people, like, kind of small spiraling down into, like, weirdness for weirdness sake, that's probably not great. But I don't know if that's the case. That could just be some people, I.

48:58 Chris: Don'T know, a stepping stone into teal tribe. Like, I'm gonna weird. I'm gonna make a tulpa, right? Oh, yeah. Well, I'm gonna astral project. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm gonna go join Teal tribe. And I almost made a kill suicide. Kayla: Don't like that joke. I'm gonna join Teal tribe, and then I'm gonna do to myself what Jeffrey epstein did to himself, and it all comes back around. Chris: That's the ultimate weird. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Oh, man, we're bad people. Kayla: Well, moving on from that, I did also read about another conflict in the community, and that has to do with some tulpamancers believing that there's some gatekeeping going on from other tulbomancers who try to. This kind of goes directly. This is like a rebuttal from somebody almost talking directly to graps 224. Almost interesting. They were not connected conversations, but what this person I'm about to talk about.

49:54 Chris: Just the content happened to be interesting. Kayla: So, okay. I read this conflict has to do with some tulpamancers believing that there's gatekeeping going on from other tulpamancers who try too hard to get the community to be taken seriously. So what? I did spend a little bit of time on Tumblr reading about this one Tumblr user visions of Grey said, quote, I think the Tulpa Mansi community often tries too hard to look serious to outsiders. To be frank, it's like watching children on a playground trying to, quote, act adult. This person. Yeah. And that's the end of the quote. This person went on to explain that the gatekeeping and policing of Tulpamancer behaviors is childish, holds the community back because it's about fear of judgment from outsiders. They refute that argument. They refute the argument that quote, unquote silly telepomancer behavior drives newcomers away by claiming that the community is continuously growing.

50:43 Kayla: There's no need for recruitment. So clearly they're not. Chris: What are some silly things that they're talking about that get gatekept? Kayla: I know that there's. And we can talk about this a little bit more later. There's some judgment about the word choice. Like wonderland maybe is a little silly, or like, tulpomancy is a little bit silly. Chris: Or like, tulpomancy is a. What's the word I'm looking for? Like a little fantastical. It's a little. Kayla: Well, then you think about, like, the forms that some of the tulpas can take, like dragons or ponies or furries. Like. Chris: Right. Kayla: Some people that are maybe trying too hard to get something to be taken seriously might kind of look down on those forms, which I think is maybe a bummer, right. To not be open to that. But. So, yeah, so there's not really a need to keep recruiting. So the silliness isn't keeping people away. They also say that there doesn't need to be a base level of, quote, scientificness going on in your tulpa mancy. That is, if you want to pretend or believe that your tulpa is metaphysical or you want to ignore the, like, rules of science, go right ahead. Because you're just playing around with your imaginary friend. Like, you don't have to be conducting a science experiment, which I think is true and not true.

52:04 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Like, you and I engage in a lot of, like, fun things out in the world that aren't necessarily, like, scientifically sound or whatever, but it's still fun. And I guess I kind of like when I had a sans for my birthday party, it kind of would have been less fun if we. Chris: Sat there just trying to, like, pick it apart instead of just having fun with it. Yeah. Kayla: So. So to me, this kind of shows that there's, like, at least two sides of the community. Users like graps who think, like, we should tone the weirdness down a little bit and stop trying to, like, out weird each other. And then users like visions of grey who say, like, nah, fuck it. Let your freak flag fly. Be as weird as you want. Do your thing. Chris: And it's interesting because, like, neither of them feel like they're wrong, right? You know, one side it's like, oh, don't gatekeep. And the other side it's like, oh, don't be so weird. But it's like, it's tough for me. Like, neither of them felt like when you were reading their statements, neither of the statements felt like, oh, that's stupid. Like, both of them felt reasonable.

52:59 Kayla: Yeah, agreed. Let's get more into my conversations with hosts and tulpas. Maybe that'll help us. But before we do, I want to share some corrections from the last episode. Chris: Oh. Kayla: Again, some hosts and their tulpas were kind enough to listen to the episode and even offer some feedback in corrections. Yes, super grateful. The following corrections are courtesy of Gress, the Lexa file, and Autumn host, who also shared their tulpamancy experiences with me. We can get into those later, but first, some corrections. Okay, we said the online teleplomancy community started with bronies. According to autumn host, it actually started in other four chan communities, but only started taking off once it was picked up by the MLP community. So they didn't start it, they just kind of like, picked it up and.

53:44 Chris: Threw the lighter fluid on it. Kayla: Right? Quote, nowadays, at least in the Reddit community, there isn't a big brony presence. I only hear an MLP reference once every two weeks. As I understand it, some bronies lost interest once they realized that they couldn't force their tulpa to have a pony body with a cute pony personality. And that, to me, kind of bummer. Kind of, again, goes, is antithetical to the idea that, like, this community's run amok with, like, furries and brownies. Yeah, it seems like some people experience a lot of brownie stuff and some people don't experience it very much at all. Chris: You might just. Yeah, the community seems big enough that you might have a totally different experience in it with somebody than somebody else. Kayla: Another correction. A few times we stated that tulpas aren't real when we meant that they're not physical. Quote, some tulpas and hosts find it very offensive when you say not real. Tulpas are usually referred to as people, so let's just be cognizant of that. Like, we're not. When we say not real, if we do slip up and say not real, we mean not physical.

54:41 Chris: Yeah, I think that's what I meant last episode. But I'll try to, like, make my language reflect that more, because I don't think they're not. What? Kayla: Wait, you don't think that they're not real? Chris: I don't think that they're not real. I just think that they're not physical. But I. It does seem to me that there is something real going on in the imagination, in the brains of these. These folks. That is real. Kayla: This is less of a correction, more of a piece of interesting information. All from autumn host. Quote. In the episode, you two took offense to the word force. There are some in the community who would agree with you. I forget why the word force was chosen. Forcing doesn't mean forcing the tulpa to do anything. Think of it more as using the force of your mental abilities to create some people something.

55:24 Chris: It's more like the force. Kayla: No, it's more. Yeah, I guess in that way. Yeah, maybe it has to do with that. I don't know. Chris: I don't know. Kayla: Some people recommend that you say you and your tulpa are forcing and not that you are you forcing your tulpa. So it's more like my tulpa and I were forcing. Not, I was forcing my tulpa. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: The later statement sounds too much like slavery. There is a movement in the community to start using different words, and maybe this kind of plays into the silliness thing. We were just talking about mindscape rather than Wonderland because Wonderland sounds too childish, and apparently this is from autumn host. You two even laughed at the word. In fact, after hearing you two giggle about the word, I now agree the word should be abandoned. Chris: What? Kayla: No, I know. Chris: Wonderland. No, I was just.

56:04 Kayla: I very much enjoyed it. Chris: Literally, just when you said Wonderland versus mindscape, literally, I was just kind of like, I don't know what's wrong with Wonderland. Kayla: We definitely giggled. I went back and listened, and I think it was more of a, like, amazed or, like, impressed or like, oh, that's cool. Chris: Getting this can be hard to. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean. Kayla: But I also understand not wanting to use it if you totally personally feel. Chris: Like trying to think of the right way to. Kayla: That's too childish. You'd rather use mindscape or I pericosm or whatever. Like, yeah, use that. Chris: Yeah. First of all, mindscape and pericles are both dope words and mindscape. Certainly. I think in terms of, like, a word that feels like what it means. Kayla: Right. Chris: Totally makes sense. But also, like, wonderland. I don't know. Like, it doesn't seem that. It doesn't seem that childish. It just seems like.

56:48 Kayla: I like Wonderland. Chris: Yeah, I kind of like Wonderland. And it's very evocative. It's very, like. Kayla: Right. Chris: I guess it's actually similar to mindscape in that way. Kayla: Right. Chris: It's like, it makes you think, like, oh, yeah, that's like a place where your imagination can just sort of run wild and make things right. Kayla: The word you can use. If you don't want to use force, you can use develop. Chris: I like develop instead of force. Kayla: Some people also don't like the word host because it sounds like the tulpas, a parasite. The word tulpa, man. Chris: See, I always interpreted it as more of, like, a host and a guest. Kayla: Host and a guest, rather than like a host and a. Chris: But I can totally see that. Yeah. Kayla: Some people don't like the word tulpamancy. They think it's weird. Autumn host likes Tulpamancy. I like Tulpa Mancy, certainly.

57:32 Chris: I feel like it's a little. To me, it's a little more weird than Wonderland, but I don't not like it. I think the only reason that it feels a little weird to me is that it feels like it's a. It's very fantasy tropey. Wonderland isn't necessarily fantasy tropey because there's, like, you know, Peter Pan in Wonderland or. No, it's Alice in Wonderland. Whatever Peter Pan had. Where did he go? Kayla: Neverland. Chris: Neverland. Different lands. Kayla: Yeah, two different places at Disney. Chris: But anyway, so Wonderland has got that sort of, like, weight of, like 100 years of Alice, you know, down the rabbit hole, whereas Mansi feels a little bit like it comes from, you know, like a world of Warcraft or fun.

58:12 Kayla: Like necromancy or whatever. Chris: Yeah, that's a word, right? Necromancy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I. Personally, I like it. Kayla: Right. Chris: But I can see where that word would be a little more fantastical. Kayla: Certain people don't like the word tulpa and prefer head mate or thought form or something else. So. So interesting. Chris: I'm gonna give a thumbs down on head mate. Kayla: Head mate is used by a lot of people. Chris: I'm gonna give a thumbs up on thoughtform. Thoughtform sounds dope. Kayla: A lot of people use head mate, and I've come to accept it. I prefer tulpa. Chris: Tulpa yeah, tulpa feels. I mean, I guess I've learned enough about tulpas now that it feels normal. I don't know if a person that isn't new to the subject would think that the word tulpa was normal.

58:54 Kayla: Right. Chris: I like thoughtform. Kayla: Thoughtform's cool. Chris: I don't know that I'd change it from tulpa. Kayla: No, I like tulpa. Some more corrections. These are from gress, the Lexaphile. Remember how you and I kind of talked about the various what I call stages of Tulpa Mancy? Like forcing to imposition, to switching to. Well, gress pointed out to me that except for, like, forcing or development coming first, the rest of those activities don't come in stages and can happen or be worked on simultaneously. There's no step up or in different wonderland to imposition, to fronting. Right. It can be in different orders and or all at once. Chris: And is it true that you may not even necessarily ever do that? You may just like, yeah. Develop your tulpa, and that's it.

59:36 Kayla: Some tulpas don't come from a wonderland. Don't have a wonderland. So, yeah, it can just kind of be like, you have your tulpa, and that's it. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And we mentioned imposition, which is, like, the process of visualizing your tulpa in the physical world. We said it was purely visual, but Gress told me that there's also auditory imposition and tactile imposition practices. So, like, practicing hearing your tulpa in the real world or, like, feeling, like, making contact with them, like, physical contact. Chris: So I could, like, hear and feel my Pete's dragon too. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: After a lot of work. Chris: Oh, I'm too lazy. But it's very tempting. Kayla: Another interesting caveat is that while forcing development requires the Tulpa mancer to plan for, think about, or suggest form and personality characteristics, there's no guarantee that the Tulpa will form exactly how you want them. Kind of like how earlier autumn host mentioned bronies getting disappointed when they realized they couldn't guarantee their tulpas would be, like, cute little ponies.

1:00:35 Chris: That is so fascinating. Kayla: The same goes for all tulpas. Chris: Cause, like, why? Kayla: Because the tulpa is a sentient, autonomous being. It's gonna kind of be what it wants to be. Chris: Oh, man, that's so interesting. That's so, I guess if the autonomy part is, like, a crucial aspect of it, then I guess I can see it being like, you can't have autonomy without also not fully controlling how it becomes. Kayla: Right. Chris: Oh, man. That's weird. Kayla: What gress said was, quote, some Tulpa manswers don't use direct suggestion to their developing tulpas. Some prefer to take the approach of letting the tulpa choose their own personality and form. So you're more just like, talk to it. Talk about, like, doing the narration, that kind of thing, rather than being like, I think you'll have pink hair or whatever.

1:01:28 Chris: Right. Kayla: And also, tulpas can sometimes just, like, straight up reject the host's suggestions and become the tulpa they want to be. Like, I read examples of, like, somebody trying to create, like, a shy tulpa or an extroverted tulpa, and then the tulpa comes out the opposite. Like, you're like, I want my tulpa to be super extroverted. And they're like, fuck, no, I'm shy. That's what they are. And this, again, is another reason why you shouldn't create a tulpa just to have sex with it. Because even if you try to develop or force a tulpa that wants to be a sex bot, you can't guarantee it. And then it's just all kinds of fucked up. Chris: I wonder if that answers our sex bot ethical question. Maybe you try to program sufficiently create. Kayla: Something sufficiently create a sex bot that. Chris: Has enough autonomy to, like, pass the turing test.

1:02:09 Kayla: Right. Chris: You won't be able to. Oh, man. That's crazy. Oh, my God. Tulpas just taught me something. Kayla: Yep. Chris: Is that really answer to that? Okay, we have to talk about this more later. Kayla: I don't know. Finally, gress had some insight about switching from gress. I would like to explain. There are some complex mechanisms of fronting depending on the tulpamancer tulpas and what they're used to. So fronting is like, when the tulpa, your front, whoever is in the driver's seat, is fronting. Chris: Got it. So it's not like, so you and I are fronting right now, and you're bragging. You can't back it up. Kayla: Fronting is when you're in control of the body. Chris: Right. So I'm fronting myself. Kayla: Yes. Chris: If I had a tulpa, right? And he were in control, he or she or it.

1:02:51 Kayla: Right. Chris: Then that would. Kayla: Then they would be fronting. Chris: Okay. Kayla: For example, spontaneous fronting can occur, which is a tulpa being brought to the front without necessarily their intention or the consent of the current fronter. Chris: All right, that's a little freaky. Kayla: You can see that freaks me out. You can see this often in relation to certain stimuli that are either liked or disliked by a previously non conscious member, especially jarring them awake to react to said stimuli. Example, tulpa A is afraid of lightning, and upon not being conscious, but the body in general hearing lightning, they may be woken to the conscious front and consequently act out in fear. It's interesting to note that stronger emotions tend to hold more intense control of the front. Again, back to the fearful example, a tulpa petrified by fear may hold onto the front much stronger in their reaction, more so than I, another awake, but more passively reacting tulpa or host. So if your tulpas scared of lightning, then, and they spontaneously front, it's going to be harder to wrest control from them.

1:03:49 Kayla: If you're, like, less scared right now. Chris: It feels, if I'm like, if me. If me Chris is calm, then it's harder for me to take control back from the scared tulpa. Kayla: Right. Chris: Got it. That's like my mom with lightning. She's really scared of lightning. It's hard to get her to come back down from that. Kayla: There you go. Chris: Until the lightning's gone. Kayla: Gress already talked about how there's a thing called co fronting, where it's like you don't fully switch, but like two of you kind of share what? The body. Chris: How? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Wait, no, stop. I can't. Yep, now you lost me. Kayla: Yep. Chris: I was with you with the swapping thing. But how can two people be. Is it like a two headed giant?

1:04:30 Kayla: I guess. I guess. Chris: Is it like. Kayla: I don't know, I don't have a tulpa. It's hard to understand some of these things without having the actual tulpa. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Gress also wanted to make it clear that, like, during switching, the host becomes, like, the back seat consciousness, but it is also possible for the host to go entirely unconscious. And that's like just kind of a passive response. Chris: My lord. Kayla: And then Gress also wanted to point out, in relation to did and schizophrenia, they felt it was important to mention, for them to mention that did is generally a trauma based disorder. Like dissociative identity disorder generally crops up after a child experiences trauma or somebody experiences trauma. And schizophrenia, on the other hand, has more significant evidence of it being a, like, genetically based disease. So while there are trauma, there's definitely environmental factors, it's generally more. Schizophrenia is more genetically based and did is more trauma based, if it exists at all. We know that there's many doctors that say it doesn't.

1:05:37 Chris: Right. Okay. And then gress is differentiating that from tulpomancy. That is not necessarily trauma based. Kayla: Right. Well, he was basically saying they, I actually don't know their gender because you and I talked about did and schizophrenia, and I think we maybe didn't quite make that very clear that, like, these two illnesses are not, are they only different from tulpomancy? They're also very different from each other. Chris: Oh, yeah, yeah. Right. Got it. Kayla: So those are our corrections from last week. Thanks to everyone who listened and helped us out. I really appreciate it. So since Gress mentioned mental illness and did and schizophrenia, kind of talk about that more, I mentioned.

1:06:18 Chris: Great. Kayla: Yeah, we covered a bit last week. Let's get more into it this week. I mentioned a few times that the tulpamancers I interacted with or observed seem to have a very informed understanding of certain mental illnesses. Did in particular. So let's talk about that. So Gress talked about how, you know, did came from this place. Schizophrenia comes from this place. I mean, again, mental illness is multifactorial, but that's, you know, those are the understandings. Another toplum answer under original title number 998 pointed out that one of their biggest pet peeves. Chris: Wait, hold up. What's their name again? Kayla: Unoriginal title number 998. That's good. Chris: That is a good name. Kayla: Yeah, they pointed out to me that, they pointed out one of their biggest pet peeves is other folks assuming that having a tulpa indicates schizophrenia. They point out that while they understand the concern, they often feel like the concern has less to do with actual worry and is more about othering tulpamancers or like, making fun of them in some way or being like, ooh, weird, or not understanding. Right. We talked last time about the ways Tulpaman city differs from schizophrenia. So to make this claim, it seems like you almost need to be less informed of the illness than actual tulpamancers seem to be.

1:07:28 Chris: Right? Kayla: Does that make sense? Chris: Yeah, totally. If what you're saying is because the community is so informed. Kayla: Right. Chris: For someone to think that means that they're less informed means they're probably not part of the community. Kayla: Right. There are even entire threads on R. Tulpas about mental illness did specifically meant to dispel myths and preconceived notions. And I personally really appreciate the work that these folks have put into, like, kind of refute the stigma. And honestly, what they're doing is like, leading to greater understanding of mental illness than if they hadn't. You know what I mean? Chris: Like, sweet. I was gonna say sicken, but it's the opposite of sick. It's healthy. Oh, what's up? Kayla: You can, like, throw around diagnoses as much as you want to, things you don't understand. But, like.

1:08:13 Chris: And I do. Kayla: We all do. But the people in the tulbomancy community are like, no, this is what did actually is. So, like, that's actually good work that they're doing. Like, they're clarifying. They're destigmatizing. Yeah. Like, we all need more understanding, and we need to address the fact that there's, like, a lot of misinformation out there about mental illness. So I appreciate anyone who puts in the work to, like, correct myths or provide up to date info. Chris: Yeah. Thanks, guys. Kayla: In addition to being well informed about mental illness, some people in the community and from outside the community take this idea a step further. So, remember how we talked about the hearing Voices network last episode? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: That was the group that is. Chris: They're trying to destigmatizing hearing voices in your head.

1:08:53 Kayla: Yes. As well as, like, having visions or other, like, weird sensory events. There's a similar movement for what some people call plurality. From what I understand, plurality is a term that either originated in or was heavily adopted by the general community of folks who often connect to each other online who've been diagnosed with did. So plurality refers to the phenomenon of multiple independent Personas who all cohabitate the same body. And I've noticed that specifically within the did community, plurality can often be reserved specifically for those with did. But that's not a hard and fast rule. And in the Tulpa Mansi community, plurality, as a word also works to describe the various Tulpa host systems. Interesting note. I also noticed folks with did use the word system to describe their various personalities. So it's a similarity. I don't.

1:09:46 Kayla: I think it's more just, like, a similarity of convenience rather than like, ooh, this means they got did. I think it just happens to share some traits that. Chris: Yeah, it's interesting to use similar words. Same words in some cases. Kayla: Well, tulpamancers and some folks with did who resent or refute the quote unquote disorder aspect of the diagnosis, maintain that multiple personality systems or system mates living in the same host don't necessarily an illness make interesting. Chris: So now we're not even talking about total answers. Now we're talking about people who have been diagnosed with multiple personalities. D I d. And they're saying it's not really diagnosis. There's nothing wrong with me. Kayla: They're saying that not everyone with multiple personalities has did. They're saying that not everyone that.

1:10:31 Chris: Wait. Kayla: That having multiple person, that having a system, having a multiple Persona system is not necessarily a disorder. Chris: Are they saying that it's not a disorder and that it's just normal human variation? Or are they saying that some people with multiple personalities is a disorder and some people with multiple personalities is not. Kayla: That just like the hearing voices network, it's not saying, like, schizophrenia doesn't exist. They're just saying that is just one symptom in a mental illness. We'll get to it. But, like, again with schizophrenia, that's just one symptom in the mental illness. Chris: Sure. Kayla: That's not the whole thing. Chris: Right. Kayla: But this one, this is saying that just having, that doesn't make for these people, doesn't make it a disorder. In some of those Reddit threads I mentioned discussing mental health, tulpamancers will make it very clear that plurality can exist without disorder. Tulpamancers and folks with did also point out that there are other diagnoses that present multiple personalities as a symptom, and those are often DDnos associative disorder, not otherwise specified.

1:11:34 Chris: Okay. Kayla: To some people is not the only diagnosis you can get. And basically what these tulpamancers say and what some people in, like, the plurality community outside of tulpomancy say is that for something to be considered a disorder and to be diagnosed as a disorder, the symptoms must cause clinically significant stress, distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. Chris: That makes sense. Kayla: So, like the DSM five, the, like the diagnostic manual that, like, all of the mental illnesses are in, that we can be diagnosed with, generally, to be diagnosed with, generally be diagnosed with any mental illness, it must cause clinically significant distress or impairment in some important areas of your life.

1:12:26 Chris: Right. That makes sense. That's why. That's like the difference between somebody that, like, drinks a lot and some, that's an alcoholic. Kayla: Right. Exactly right. And so these people with did. And then also some tulpa mancers are saying plurality is not necessarily a problem if it is not interfering with my life in major ways and not causing me to. Chris: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that kind of talks a little bit. Like we talked about that a little last week. Kayla: Right. Chris: Like, where we talked about, like, what's the area? That's the line between normal human variation and illness. Kayla: Right. Chris: It feels like that is the line, is clinically significant distress. Kayla: So these people are saying that, like, having multiple personalities isn't necessarily distressing for some people. It's going.

1:13:11 Chris: So the part I think I was confused is, like, whether they were. Is what they were saying is, like, is all. Is all plurality simply a variation. And they're saying. They're not necessarily saying that. They're saying plurality, which is having multiple personalities, can be something that causes clinically significant distress the same way that alcohol can cause that. It just doesn't necessarily cause that. Kayla: Right. It's like, having some people is normal, but if you have big old horse teeth, you might need to get them taken out. Chris: Are you talking about. Is that at me? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Because I had to have four adult teeth taken out. Kayla: Yeah. So having teeth. Chris: And also my wisdom, having teeth is.

1:13:51 Kayla: Normal, but for you, it was a problem. Chris: I had giant freak teeth. Yeah, no, I know. That was messed up. Kayla: Or maybe you have a teensy mouth. Chris: I think my mouth is normal size. So I think the part. Yeah, that was the part I was getting confused at. And also then, like, differentiating, because in my head, I was kind of like, oh, did is the disordered bit, and tulpamanswers is the not disordered bit. So trying to further subdivide the disordered bit into not disordered versus. That was what was confusing me. Kayla: Sure, sure. Chris: But now in my head, I'm like, okay, the dividing lines are like this. Tulpas, tulpamancers. Excuse me, create their own autonomous personalities. Then there are people with plurality that they don't consciously do that. It just is something that happens to them.

1:14:39 Kayla: Right. Chris: And it sounds like to me that it can be from trauma, according to. Yeah, okay. Gressen. Gross. Gross. Kayla: Grass. Chris: And then within that subgroup of personalities happened to me without my actually forcing it or developing it. Then there are some that are like, it's cool. It doesn't matter. It doesn't do anything. Kayla: Right. Chris: And there are some that are like, this is harming my life. Right, okay. I'm trying to, like, get the Venn diagram straight in my head. Kayla: Right. And, yeah, the only reason I'm including it is because I thought it was interesting that there was this larger plurality community that, like, dovetails with tulpamancy. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: So some people with did in the plurality movement mostly stick to focusing on did. Others have a more expansive view of it. Some people view plurality strictly as mental illness. Others view it as more of a human variation type thing, like HvN, like all the people we're talking about. Right. Now HVN is hearing voices network. Sorry. In fact, there was even a plurality positivity world conference earlier this year.

1:15:43 Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Conducted, I think, entirely online through streaming videos. Chris: Was it just one guy cutting that out? Kayla: Plural. People got to share their experiences, connect with each other, and kind of reframe what is considered a mental illness in, like, big or small ways. So that was the plurality positivity world conference. Chris: That's neat. Kayla: Still, on this subject of mental illness, let's go back to the vice article we referenced last episode. I want to share some particular passages that jumped out at me regarding this topic. This passage starts off talking about switching and how, to an outside observer, this can look like mental illness. Quote, not so, say the Tulpamancers. In 99% of cases, the host can choose to switch back at any time. And doctor Vessier, professor of cognitive science at McGill, said via email that tulpamancy, quote, tulpa Mansi could have radical implications for the treatment of schizophrenia and other malignant psychoses.

1:16:33 Chris: Whoa. Kayla: In the age. Well, listen to his next sentence and then decide how blown away you want to be in the age of big pharma. In the marketing of madness, Tulpa therapy could offer a free alternative that doesn't require institutionalization and social isolation. I hate the phrase big pharma getting thrown about and the marketing of madness. I'm not a fan. I'm already a little skeptical of this guy. Chris: Right. But that definitely makes me. That definitely gives me pause because, yeah, I know generally some positive stuff there about, like, we can able to more about it. Yeah, okay. But, but, yeah, they're like, oh, big pharma pushing the is just now you're starting. I mean, anything where you sound a little bit like Scientology is like, gonna make my.

1:17:17 Kayla: Well, anything that makes me go like, I have a. I have an illness and you're vilifying medication. Chris: Not to say that there's like, that. That pharma companies aren't above reproach. Kayla: They're fuck big pharma. Chris: There are plenty of bad things that they do. Kayla: Fuck. What was it? Johnson Johnson? Chris: When you fuck all those opioid guys, right? It's. That's not Johnson and Johnson. Those. Kayla: They've done shitty stuff. I don't know if they've done opioid stuff, but they got in trouble. Johnson and Johnson are fuckers because they. And this is not me being crazy. They knowingly allowed their talc products to be contaminated with asbestos. And it's given, like, thousands of people cancer.

1:18:01 Chris: Do we have a source for that so we can keep this on. Kayla: I wrote an entire podcast episode about it for Parrcast. It's the episode about Big Pharma and the cure for cancer. Chris: Oh, shit. Kayla: Very heavily researched, and they've been taken to court. There was like a whole. There was a. There was a. There's a whole class action lawsuit. They still refuse to, like, admit that they've done anything wrong, but, like, literally, their talc mine was like, next to an asbestos mine, basically. Like, there was no way for their talc to not be contaminated with asbestos. A lot of big pharma companies have done shitty things, which is why the big pharma thing is, like, so insidious to me. Chris: I think it's the. The thing that comes to my mind is when you're talking about big pharma in relation to, like, you know, therapies and treatment, right? And you throw that around, then it's a little like, whoa. Like, why are you bringing it up there when you're talking about it in other contexts? Like, here's all of the bad things that they've done, like talking about the.

1:18:58 Kayla: Opioid epidemic or that kind of stuff. Right? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: This is back to the vice article. Some tulpa mancers already used the practice to self medicate. Quote, I've been suffering from depression and suicidal thoughts for a decade now, said Sam from Maryland. My tulpa would try and attack my anxiety and even forcefully possess my hand to keep me from harming myself with a knife. Damn, that. Chris: That's awesome. Kayla: Is amazing. And, like. Yeah, like, I. What? However you feel about tulpas, and however, if you feel like they're real. Not real physical. Not physical. Like, whatever. If this person really had that experience, like, that's amazing. Chris: Yeah. I mean, that's a real thing that happened in their brain. Kayla: Right, right.

1:19:39 Chris: Like, no matter. Like, whatever we have to say about, like, the process and how it happens and whatever, that is an experience that they had. Kayla: Right. Chris: That's really fascinating. And I'll say this. It's probably better than them joining teal tribe. Kayla: Yeah, yeah, probably. It's certainly better than them joining NXivM. Yeah, definitely better than going to old romtha. Chris: Yeah, yeah. It's pretty much better than almost anything that we've talked about on the podcast. Kayla: Probably better than going to eat at a vegan restaurant. Probably better than playing a video game that makes promises they can never keep. Yeah, maybe not better than going and volunteering at animal sanctuary.

1:20:20 Chris: Yeah, potentially. Kayla: Potentially. Chris: But if we talk about that then are we actually talking about joining Robert de Grimston and the process church? Kayla: That's true. Chris: It's maybe better than that. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Probably not better than going to an island in the South Pacific, though, and celebrating John from. Because that sounded fun. Kayla: That did sound fun. Moving on to talk about schizophrenia again from the vice article, doctor Vacier, again, I keep pronouncing that wrong and I don't really care, says, quote, schizophrenia could be understand as an incapacitating example of involuntary tulpas. Therefore, by forming positive relationships with their symptoms, sufferers can start to recover. It's an idea shared by the hearing voices movement, who challenge, like, who, as we know, challenge the medical models of schizophrenia and suggest that pathologization aggravates symptoms.

1:21:11 Chris: Interesting. Kayla: Yeah. Let me read the next quote, because it's important. Chris: Mental health is just so complicated. Kayla: Quote, my schizophrenia manifested itself by having many thoughts and ideas, all conflicting and shouting at me, said Logan, who wanted his last name withheld. Turning them into tulpas, gave those thoughts a face and allowed them to be sorted out in. In a way that made sense. Chris: Huh. Kayla: Interesting, right? Chris: Wow. Yeah. You're like giving avatars to your competing ideas and thoughts and everything. Kayla: And, like, that definitely butts up against some like, or like connects to, like, some techniques and coping skills that you and I have learned in therapy for just like, regular old depression and anxiety. Chris: One of the more interesting things that I did at one point was drawing a picture of what my, I, my anxiety felt like. And then like putting it just basically sitting it in front of me and then just like, there it is. It's a thing. It exists separate from you.

1:22:06 Kayla: Right. Chris: You know, it can. It can be separate. It doesn't, you know, you can think of it. Think of it that way. Kayla: Right. Chris: So, yeah. Giving. Giving different forms to some of the thoughts and emotions and whatever that we have. Yeah. Kayla: Well, sometimes this kind of makes me think about, like, acceptance versus, like, pathologizing, pathologization, where it's like, if you sometimes, if you're like, oh, God, this is just my depression talking. You can spin out, whereas you can kind of be like, this is a thought that I'm having. It's just a thought. I feel bad. I acknowledge it. Let's go. Chris: Right? Yeah. And, like, anxiety about anxiety is like one of the biggest problems with anxiety.

1:22:50 Kayla: Right, right. Chris: So that's. Yeah. Kayla: Okay. I want to transition away a bit away. Chris: Good. Cause I was getting anxiety. Kayla: I'm talking about mental illness. We'll keep. We'll still have anxiety. It's fine. Let's go back to the community itself. During my research, a host I chatted with, the same autumn host who I mentioned earlier, they linked me to something really interesting. The annual Tulpa community census. Chris: What? Kayla: I guess nearly every year. Chris: No. Kayla: The R television community conducts a census to try and get some data about their community. Chris: That's bitchin'no.

1:23:31 Kayla: I was really impressed by that. Chris: What community does that? Kayla: It's amazing. And, like. And it's not just like, here's some fuckin numbers. Like, the data is then input into, like, charts and graphs, and, like, offers some really interesting insights. Chris: As an excel Nerdev, that gives me an excel boner. Kayla: That's why earlier, when you were like, what's the oldest tulpa? I was like, I can't tell you where I got this info. Chris: Oh. Cause it was from the census. You got access to it? Yeah, with the charts and everything automatically. Kayla: You should link it to me. Chris: You'll show me charts? Kayla: Yes. Let me. I'm gonna. Go ahead. Okay. So this census goes to show that even though there are few studies, like official scientific studies done in tulpas, there are people out there trying to keep track of the information. I'm gonna read you. I'm gonna just, like, throw a bunch of info from the census at you, and then we can look at it.

1:24:16 Chris: Okay? Yeah, yeah. Throw it over. Kayla: A majority of the people in the community are either employed or in school, full or part time. Only 13% of the community is neither working or in school. Chris: Okay. Kayla: The population self identifies as 59% male, 27% female, 6% genderqueer, 4% agender, and 4% other. Only 43% identify as heterosexual. The remaining 57% of folks are bisexual, pansexual, asexual, homosexual or other. Chris: So already it's sounding like, on the employment front, it's not really more than the general pop. Kayla: I don't think only 13% are unemployed or out of school. Chris: Yeah, but it depends on how you count. Like, there's different. There's different unemployment statistics. Kayla: Right. Like, these could be children.

1:24:57 Chris: Right. That's what I mean. So, like, the employment statistics only count the employable. Kayla: Right. Chris: So it may even be actually smaller. It definitely sounds like it skews mail, right? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Would you say 56%? Okay. Excuse male, particularly when you consider that for single gender, the female side was, what, only 20? Kayla: You said 27%. Chris: That's interesting. And then very. It seems like it definitely, compared to the general population, skews towards queerness versus straightness. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: 29.5% of the population is atheist. 28% is agnostic.

1:25:38 Chris: I have no idea how to compare that to the general population. Kayla: I think it's way less than that. Chris: Less? Yeah. No, I just. I don't know what the popular, the self identifying atheist population is. You're right. It's probably less than 30. Kayla: Probably. Chris: But I don't know. Kayla: 28% is agnostic, 14.6% is christian. That's definitely way lower than at least the american population. But again, we're not talking about just America. We're talking about. Chris: Oh, right, this is on Reddit. Kayla: We're talking about a lot of, like, quote unquote, western countries. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And then also Russia, 14.6% christian, 3% buddhist, and 24% other, including Hindu, Tao, jewish, and Shinto. Almost 90% of the people involved in the community have already successfully developed a tulpa. The vast majority of folks have two personalities total. That is, they have one tulpa. Okay, going back to our quote, how did you find out about the Tulpa Mansi community? Question. Sources cited were YouTube, Reddit, general online research, the MLP community, four chan friends, books or stories, and creepypasta. Once again, MLP, my Little Pony, creepypasta, scary stories online. 68% of people surveyed believe tulpas are a psychological phenomenon, with 18% unsure, 5% thinking there's a metaphysical reason, and 9% other.

1:26:51 Chris: Huh. So that's very much skews in favor of it's a psychological phenomenon. Not. Kayla: We talked about that last week a little bit or last episode little bit too. But, yeah, it's. And to have that actually have that data and not just us going like. Chris: Yeah, we think, yeah, how do we do it? Kayla: So, okay. 68% believe tulpas are psychological phenomenon. Chris: Yeah, that's a very large majority. Kayla: 68% also believe tulpas are conscious beings independent of the hosts. 22% are unsure, and 8% answered no. Most people answered no when asked if anyone outside their online communities know about their tulpas. But those are all just demographics about the hosts. Let's talk about the tulpas themselves.

1:27:32 Chris: Glorious. Kayla: Of those surveyed, 57.2% were female, 30% were male, 6% agender, 5% genderqueer, and 1% other. Chris: So that, like, mirrors the numbers from the hosts, is the inverse. That's like, the inverse of the populations of the host. It's really interesting. Kayla: Like, agender and genderqueer and the outside of the binary genders seem to be the same, but, like, the female, the. Chris: Female male thing is, like, almost the same. Yeah. And I wonder if at some, like, large number scale, if that's some indication of, like, wanting, like, females wanting male energy and males wanting female energy, maybe around them, maybe in their lives or something, right? I don't know. That's total speculation.

1:28:21 Kayla: I don't know either. That's why the data is just data. Chris: Lies. Damn lies. And statistics. Kayla: Statistics. 27% of the tulpas were heterosexual, 28% were bisexual, 17% asexual, 15% pansexual, 7.8% homosexual, and 3% other. 56% of tulpas were created intentionally. 25.7% of hosts said some of their tulpas developed naturally, and some developed intentionally, and 18% developing their tulpas developed naturally. Chris: Isn't developing naturally essentially what we're talking about before with, like, plurality, like, being did, but not necessarily disordered. Yeah, interesting.

1:29:01 Kayla: But it's. We can get a little bit more into, like, the natural development. We'll get to that. Chris: A lot of. We'll get to that. Kayla: Ten hour episode. The vast majority of tulpas are in human form. And then it went demi human, and then the rest were some combo of, like, shapeshifter, anthropomorphic spirit, demon, monster, animal, or amorphous. Chris: Amorphous. Kayla: Meaning that it's like a ball of light or, like. Yeah. Chris: Oh, yeah. A ball of light is much nicer than blob. Kayla: Yeah. Most forcing sessions last either 15 minutes, 30 minutes, or an hour. Wait. Chris: You only have to sit there and think for an hour to get a tulpa? Kayla: Forcing sessions. That's not okay. Chris: So you do multiple of those. Okay. Okay. Kayla: Ooh. Chris: Oh, man. Kayla: I was, like, saying, how much time?

1:29:42 Chris: I know what I'm doing. After we record how much time per. Kayla: Day do you spend forcing? 51% of responders said there can be multiple independent threads of experience going on in their minds at one time. Chris: Oh, my God. That sounds intense. Kayla: Most responders said they sometimes, rarely, or never mistake their tulpas voice for their own thoughts. Chris: Wait, sorry. Kayla: Say that one again. Most responders said they sometimes, rarely, or never mistake their tulpas voice for their own thoughts. So most of the time, at least 80% of the time, they know that it's their tulpa's voice. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And they know they can tell that it's their thoughts and the tulpa between. Chris: Only sometimes and never. Okay. All right. I thought I was, like, getting confused. Kayla: Sometimes, rarely, or never. Yeah. Listen to this number. 95.6% of responders said their tulpas had a positive impact on their lives.

1:30:30 Chris: Wow. Kayla: 63.8% said that having a tulpa has not had a. Any negative effects on their lives. Chris: Wow. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So 68% basically 63% are saying positive impact and no negative impact. Another like 20% to 30% mixed impact, but certainly enough to say that it was positive. Kayla: Yeah. Net positive. Chris: Net positive. And then only 5% people didn't say it was a net positive. Wow. Wow. Kayla: Like we mentioned, there are many incidents of mental illness in the Tulpa Mansi community. Community. But this census confirms for us that the most common illnesses by a wide margin are depression and anxiety. A few other honorable population. Right. A few other honorable mentions were ADHD and autism, which I believe is not technically a mental illness in the same way that depression and anxiety are. I'm not well versed, but I think autism is generally considered a developmental disorder or developmental variation. But again, I'm not an authority on that. A few others surveyed mentioned PTSD and bipolar as well.

1:31:33 Chris: Interesting. Kayla: So I thought those stats in particular were interesting and illuminating. We talked a lot about the demographics in the community, so it was interesting to see those exact things surveyed and their answers. Chris: Okay, that's amazing. Do I get to see the charts? Kayla: Are you ready to see the charts? Chris: I'm always ready to see charts. I'm a chart guy. Okay. So it definitely looks like jet Ski's young. There's a. Like the. There's a sort of a big curve bump for teenagers and 20 somethings, and there's nobody that's. Kayla: But there are still oldies in there. Chris: There are, but it's just not as many. Kayla: Not as many. But it's like. Chris: But I wonder if that's just. Cause it's like a new thing, at least online. Kayla: Well, it's also like, who's going on Reddit? It's probably mostly younger people.

1:32:15 Chris: Oh, right. So it actually participates. There's some selection bias, is what you're saying. Interesting. Okay. Kayla: There's selection bias for. Yeah. Again, this is a census. This is all, like, self volunteer participation. So, you know, not necessarily scientific data collection. Chris: Okay. Some pie charts. Kayla: See this? Amazing how there's, like, charts and graphs and analysis. Chris: Oh, yeah. The analysis, like, the self analysis here is fantastic. Kayla: We'll be sure to share this in our show notes as well, so that our listeners can have a chance to. To peruse. Chris: Yeah, please peruse the charts. The charts are pretty good. Okay, so cool. Thank you for showing me this. Kayla: You're welcome.

1:32:56 Chris: Let's. Kayla: You ready to talk about my actual conversations with actual. Chris: Yes. This is the part that I've been looking forward to the most since you said this. Kayla: Yeah, I chatted with a lot of hosts in their tulpas, and like I mentioned, the response I got was so overwhelming and was from so many people. And I think every single person who reached out to me and helped just thank you forever. I'm gonna go ahead and try to share some of the most interesting tidbits right now. I can't include every conversation I had or else we would literally be here for a week. Chris: Are you, like, reading their full transcripts of what they told you or. Kayla: No, but it'll be. There's a lot. There's a lot. Chris: Okay. Kayla: There's a lot. So, yeah. Apologies to anyone who doesn't get their story included. Hopefully we can do another Tulpa episode in the future.

1:33:41 Chris: We'll do what? We'll bring somebody on the show. Kayla: Ooh. It's a good idea. Okay. One user in particular who was very helpful goes by the name the username Quanri. Quanri first discovered the concept of tulpas during a YouTube binge of paranormal videos and learned about them there. Chris: Seems like a common method. Kayla: Yes. Quanri said she already had imaginary friends and that just kind of. They just kind of happened to be in her life naturally. And up until that point, she had assumed that they were, like, spirit guides or spirits of some sort. She called them spirit friends and even felt bad for laughing at the idea of tulpas before realizing, oh, that's what I have.

1:34:22 Chris: Wait, so hold on. So this person had imaginary friends but then was making fun of tulpas? Yeah, I don't. Kayla: Well, for her, they were spirit guides and these were man made imaginary friends. So it just felt different. Chris: Okay. Kayla: So she started out, she was like, I have these friends. They're imaginary. And then she was like, oh, these aren't imaginary friends, they're spirit guides. And then she heard about tulpas, and she was like, ha ha. These adults have imaginary friends. And then she realized, oh, that's what I have. Chris: Okay. Yeah, okay, I get it. I get it. Kayla: So Quanri has high functioning autism, and she explained, quote, this disability makes it difficult to talk to people face to face. So to have autism means there will be times where you'll be alone. And I was sick of it. I hated being alone. Sure, there was basketball and the weekend when I saw one of my friends, but otherwise, I was alone, even my family. Did you say nice to being lonely?

1:35:19 Chris: No, I said nice about the basketball. So I said, I'm a baller. Kayla: Okay, well, I was very confused. That was very hurtful and rude. Never mind. Chris: I'm just saying. I'm just saying. I like basketball. Kayla: Yes, you like basketball. Even my family mostly stayed in their rooms. Chris: But we're talking in her voice again. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Quanrie, at one point, thought about the show the wild thornberries, which I also watched as a child. It's a very wonderful animated series about the Thornberry family, and they are a family of conservation enthusiasts. And, like, the dad is the host of a nature show, and the mom shoots the nature show, so the family travels around doing their nature show. So the two daughters are homeschooled by these nature people and just, like, travel around the world. And the one is, like, the teenager, and she's, like, too cool for school, and the other one's, like, a pre teen, and she's kind of, like a big old nerd. And then she accidentally gets gifted the power of being able to talk to animals, so everywhere they go.

1:36:16 Chris: Okay, I was wondering when that was gonna get relevant. It's like you're just describing this. This show from the nineties, and I don't. Kayla: Yeah, it was a great show. I actually think it was from the. Chris: I didn't know why it was relevant until you just said that. Kayla: So Quanri watched the show. Main character Eliza speaks to animals. She wondered if she could teach herself to speak to animals, but that. Chris: Can she also hear animals or just speak to them? Kayla: Yes. She could communicate with animals. Chris: So she could understand animals. Kayla: Yes. She could communicate with animals. Yes. So Quanrie thought about the show wild thornberries. Like, the main character in the wild thornberry is Eliza Thornberry. Can speak to animals. Can communicate with animals. Okay, so Kwame was like, ooh, maybe I can teach myself to talk to animals, and then I won't be lonely.

1:36:59 Chris: Because there's inspired by the show, and. Kayla: Then there's animals around. There's pets, there's birds, there's whatever. So she was like, cool, I'm lonely. Here's a way to not be lonely. And so she tried to, like, she went online, she did a bunch of research. She did, again, a bunch of, like, this, like, visualizing and, like, self coaching and, quote unquote, tried to learn how to talk to animals. Chris: But, like, Doctor Dolittle. Kayla: Like Doctor Dolittle or like, Eliza Thornberry for a more contemporary reference. Chris: I think still more people know Doctor Dolittle. Kayla: If we surveyed right now, everyone under the age of 30 and everyone over the age of 30, I guarantee you. Chris: You guarantee me? Kayla: Guarantee. Guarantee me a thousand percent.

1:37:40 Chris: Okay. I think we need to go. Kayla: More people under 30 would. Would know. Eliza Thornberry, then. Chris: Doctor Doolittle? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Doctor Doolittle is like shorthand for talking to animals for. Kayla: For people over 30. Chris: All right. Kayla: Sorry that you're being grouped in with boomers. It's just how it's gonna be. Chris: Okay, I see how it's gonna be. Kayla: Sorry. Chris: Wow. Kayla: You're the one who's calling yourself out. Chris: Anyway, I'm gonna do this survey on Twitter, and I'm gonna prove you wrong. Kayla: Yeah, that's definitely how you do. Proof is you ask a question on Twitter. That's how you. Chris: Yeah, science right there. Kayla: Science. Chris: Yeah, get science. Kayla: Let me finish my sentence. Chris: Fine. Kayla: So she taught herself to talk to animals, communicate with the animals, but because there's animals everywhere. Which she successfully did well, in terms of, like, you know, convincing your brain that was happening.

1:38:25 Chris: Okay. Yeah. But even then, like. So she got to the point where she thought she could hear what animals were saying. Kayla: Yeah. And then because of that, it just. It was like she was overwhelmed with voices all the time. Chris: Oh, too many animals. Kayla: Too many animals. But as this was happening. But here's a quote from her. Amidst this chaos, in my mind, there was a red european dragon lying down in chains and looking as miserable as I felt. I liked this nameless dragon who seemed to understand what I was feeling. This dragon didn't say anything. So I think it must have been tulpish that I knew how he was feeling. Chris: Wait, it was what? Kayla: Tulpish. So Taupish is the. It's like a. I think it's a language or a proto language that's, like, specific to tulpas. And I think generally they only speak Tulpish when they. Before they have a grasp of, like.

1:39:11 Chris: Tulpas have their own language, human language. Kayla: Yeah, but I think it's. I think it's probably. And, like, listeners correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's probably similar to, like, how we kind of speak in, like, babble when we're babies. Chris: Okay, so it's like. It's like. It's not like English. It's like baby talk. Kayla: I think so. Chris: For tall? Kayla: I think so. Chris: Got it. Yeah, I think. Kayla: But again, listeners tell me if I'm wrong. Quanrie started ignoring the other voices. Like, she's hearing. She's having these troubles. She meets this little dragon in her mind, and she's like, I'm gonna ignore the voices. But she went ahead and. She went ahead and paid attention to the dragon because she really liked this dragon. She always liked dragons. This dragon seemed to kind of be more her speed than all these other voices.

1:40:00 Chris: Dragons are dope. Kayla: The dragons are dope. Eventually, this dragon grew big and strong, sloughed off his chains and chased away the rest of the voices that were bugging quanri. Chris: Aw, so it's like a noble dragon. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: I feel like red dragons are not usually depicted that way. Kayla: Well, this dragon is. And while she didn't know it at the time, Quanri had just met her first tulpa. Jack. Chris: His name was Jack. Kayla: His name was Jack. Once while I was walking to the train station to get home after school, wondering why God had given me this disability, as I sometimes did when I was alone and didn't want to be. Suddenly I stopped walking because my head went black. And in this void of black, I saw a humanoid. Short black hair, fiery red eyes, black jeans and boots, a black scaly tail waving from side to side, and black feathery wings. His jeans had fire markings on them as well. And he had an aura of fire. He was sort of intimidating at first, but he smiled warmly, offered his hand, and the first words were, quote, I can be your friend. I immediately recognized my dragon. He was my dragon who had come back in that current, empty world of my imagination. I gave him a hug.

1:41:06 Kayla: I was so happy to have him back. Chris: So when he chased the voices away, he also went away? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Oh. Why did he do that? Kayla: Because he's just chasing the voices away. Chris: Oh, so you had to chase them, like, far away and then chase him far away. Oh, okay. Kayla: And then he was able to come back. Chris: He came back as a person, not a dragon. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Or like a person with a tail. Kayla: A person dragon. Chris: Okay. Kayla: A dragon person. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Well, Quanri considers Jack to be her quote unquote service dragon. Jack isn't alone. Chris: That means that you can take it on planes and things like that. Okay. Kayla: Quanri currently has a system of eight tulpas. Chris: Holy crap. Kayla: That she considers like a family. And she also shared pictures with me that she drew of all of them.

1:41:46 Chris: Awesome. Kayla: So you want to see those pictures? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So here is the drawing that Quanrie shared with me. So it has her current system of tulpas, or headmates, as she called them. Yeah. And so they're all obviously labeled. Yeah, there's. There's Jack the dragon. There's all of her other ones. Chris: That's pretty hot. Kayla: Yeah, does Johnny. Chris: Wow, there's some creative stuff here. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Like this little thing with the jewel eyes. Kayla: Yeah, that's wren. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: Well, in this one this. Chris: Anyway, I suppose since this is a auditory medium, I should probably describe what I'm seeing and not just go, wow, cool. Kayla: Oh, we'll post it. Chris: Yeah, we'll post it. But, like. Okay, so it's just. It's. It's a landscape of eight different beings. In the center is Jack and Johnny, who are humanoid but with wings. One has black wings, one has white wings. Then there's like a. Is that. What would you call it? A werewolf? Windshot anthropomorphic curse who is like, a small, little, like, cutesy black dragon.

1:42:51 Kayla: We'll talk about what curse is in a little bit. Chris: Okay. And as I go the other direction, there is Kate, who appears to be like a unicorn with two horns. Kayla: She is a. Oh, Quanri told me what she is, but she's basically a, like. I think it's an east asian cryptid who's, like, kind of like a lizard horse type thing. Chris: Holy crap. Kayla: I forget what they're called. Chris: Okay, and then there's the one I was talking about. Wren is like, this little boy. He looks exactly like. You know what he looks like? He looks like, stitch from lilo and stitch. Kayla: Oh, he does look similar to stitch. Chris: But if instead, he was, like, gray instead of blue and then had gemstones for eyes instead. Then there's Kaeda, who is like, a little gnome wearing, like, a red riding hood cloak. And I believe he's standing on Donald Trump's toupee.

1:43:42 Kayla: No, he's sitting on, like, a cloud or something. Chris: Oh, it's like a yellow cloud. And then there's Ivan, who is. It's a floating eye, possibly a beholder. I don't know. What's a beholder, actually, that's specific to dungeons and dragons, so that might not be something she's into, but I don't know. Beholder is like an eyeball. It's like a floating eyeball with other floating eyeball stocks coming out of it. Oh, it's pretty gross. Kayla: Which is why Ivan looks like. Chris: That's probably not it. Kayla: Yeah, Ivan looks nice. Chris: Well, he's just an eyeball. Kayla: Well, he's. Chris: Yeah, I wouldn't say he looks nice or bad. He's. He's very neutral as an eyeball. Kayla: We'll talk more about Ivan. Chris: Okay, well, that is. That's quite the menagerie.

1:44:22 Kayla: It looks like a fun time, frankly. Chris: So that's eight. So with. With her own personality, nine. Couldn't she. She could field her own baseball team, right? Kayla: Yeah, maybe they do. We don't know. But even though there are eight head mates, and they're like a family. No one else in Quanri's irl life knows about her tulpas, even though her irl life, her real. Her physical life. Yeah. So no one in. Almost no one else in Quanri's life, physical life, knows about her tulpas, even though they've been. Yeah, even though they've been extremely helpful to her. They've been like a family. And she actually described to me a couple ways that they help, quote, I do get stressed a lot as a result, and I'm not exactly a fan of change. Even if something changes in my routine, I panic. So how do my tulpas help me with this?

1:45:11 Kayla: For example, if my mom calls me and asks me to go down to the river for a picnic, usually I think of the things I do in that time and worry like crazy. I might not be able to get to do those things. Don't, like, if she wants to, you know, go on YouTube or play video games to have those plans change at the last minute to, like, go do something fun with her if she was. Chris: Planning on X and then something y happens, that's makes it so she can't do X. Kayla: So even if she wants to go do X, she's, like, stressed out that. The fact that she can't do Y now. Chris: Right. Yeah, I feel that can be stressful. Kayla: Right. So she starts to worry and panic, and those are the moments where Jack is usually there and tells me something like, everything is going to be okay. You'll live. You'll survive this outing. You might have shorter time for gaming, but you can do that once you get back. It's not the end of the world if you don't get a few hours to watch Netflix and YouTube.

1:45:57 Chris: So that's really interesting because I feel like we all sort of have conversations in our head all the time. Like, I certainly do. Right, right. Like, I talk to myself in ways that are like that. Maybe not necessarily about that specific scenario of, you know, going to a picnic instead of playing video games, but. But that type of thing. Right? Like, sometimes part of my brain will talk to the other part of my brain and say, like, you know what, dude? Like, worry about this. This is fine because of XYZ or, like, give yourself pep talks or. That feels pretty normal. It's. The interesting part is that it's, like, personified. Kayla: Well, I think if you maybe don't have that natural inclination to kind of have those conversations, here's a way to kind of manufacture that for yourself.

1:46:45 Chris: It's interesting because it's like, it almost feels to me that almost feels harder because you have to do the imagination bit. But to someone like Quanri, it feels probably easier because the imagination bit is the easy part and the execution of that conversation is the hard part. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: That's really interesting. Kayla: And she says, so Jack pretty much instantly calms me down. Sometimes. A few of my tulpas might, or a few of my top a, I don't know, might work together to help calm me down. And as a result, I'm able to go on an outing with my mom, and they usually repeat and repeat that I'm going to be okay. And again, that's also like a really big, like, you learn how to do that in therapy. You know, like, you learn how to self coach, and you learn how to, like, problem solve and troubleshoot and address, like, cognitive distortions and things like that. And that feels similar to me here as well.

1:47:38 Chris: Yeah. When I had, I can get some claustrophobia depending on the situation. I totally could have used the tulpa when I was getting my MRI. Kayla: Yeah, I know. It would have been very helpful, both of us. But according to Quanri, her tulpa can get very specialized when it comes to the kind of help that she needs. So maybe you could have specialized at Tulpa specifically for that. Chris: Yeah, I need a claustrophobia. Claustroplia. Kayla: Claustropia. One of the ways that Quanrie's tulpas has actually specialized is like, Kate is very emotive. And when I'm listening to conversations, Kate the unicorn. Kate is the unicorn. Yeah. And when I'm listening to conversations, I'm often not sure how to react or what to say. Kate's reactions are so natural. By watching Kate, I have an idea of how to respond to certain situations. So if someone is talking about something sad, Kate might cry and she'll say, that's so sad. So in return, I'll look at the person and say, that's so sad.

1:48:33 Chris: It's like she's accessing something she wouldn't be able to otherwise access via these Personas in her head. Kayla: Right. Chris: Like, by personifying it, she's, like, able to make that connection. Kayla: Right. Chris: That is so interesting. Kayla: I loved that part. That was so cool to, like, be able to kind of figure out that piece that you might not have such easy access to by. Because. Chris: Right. Kayla: But we as fascinating about it is. Chris: That it still there. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: It's in. It's still in her head somewhere because I don't know if I knew that before, like, if I would have, well, that, like, that. The way of processing that emotion and then showing it to someone, like, quandary with high functioning autism, I had no idea. Like, I don't know how the brain works, really.

1:49:20 Kayla: Right. Chris: And I don't know how somebody with autism's brain works, but I maybe I would have guessed that, like, oh, yeah, they just, you know, they don't. That bit where they know how to, you know, cry at a sad piece of news just isn't there. But this tells me that it is there. It's just hard to access. That's really interesting to me. Kayla: It's. It's not necessarily something that was there and just needed to be accessed differently. I think that this feels different than just, this doesn't feel like I'm just unlocking something. This feels like I'm creating something. Something. And that's what I thought was really cool here, was that it was like recreating that process that we do as humans, that we model other humans. It was like recreating that process in a way that was, like, actually helpful to this person. And then she even talks about how her tulpas have helped her overcome specifically anxiety in some very serious ways.

1:50:11 Chris: Interesting. Kayla: So, quote, before I got my head mates, I wasn't really comfortable with public transportation. In order to get to my course or school class, my mom had to take me there on the bus again and again to show me and ingrain in me that it was okay and safe. I would never have been able to use public transportation to go anywhere but my course. Now, Jack, my head mate, is very brave and protective. Because of Jack, I stopped feeling scared because I knew he was with me. As a result, I could do more on my own. So she's saying, before she had her tulpas, in order to, like, just be able to take the bus to school, she would need to have her mom show her over and over and, like, reiterate, okay, you're safe. It's okay, you're safe. Kayla: And, like, that's the only place that she'd be able to take public transportation. And now, because she feels like, oh, I always have my friend with me that, like, level of anxiety is gone.

1:50:57 Chris: It's really interesting because it seems like having tulpas can also, like, amp up other emotions. Maybe that you might have or maybe amp them down. I was thinking of courage, but maybe it's amping down the anxiety. Kayla: Right, right. I could be a little both. Chris: Maybe a little bit of both. Kayla: Seems like it's both. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Like, having the courage of the tulpa helps keep the anxiety at bay. I thought that was cool. Chris: That is. All of this is cool. Kayla: Quanri gave one last example of how having a tulpa benefited her that I found particularly meaningful and important. And, you know, we talked about the. Her tulpas up front. Her, like the picture. And then there was curse, who was the little black dragon. Right. The, like, not Jack, the little cutesy one. Chris: Kind of like cartoony cutesy one. Yeah. Kayla: So curse that form, that little black, cartoony dragon form is actually a neopet that is specifically like a shadow dragon. Neopet.

1:51:48 Chris: Okay, what's a neopet again? Kayla: So Neopets was an early, I think it was like a late nineties, early two thousands, kind of like web based Internet game. And it was. Chris: Is it like Pokemon? Kayla: It's not. It's less like Pokemon, at least in my recollection. Less like Pokemon? More like. It's like a crossing Pokemon and harvest moons. It's a cross between, like, having little critters that are your friends and raising them and teaching them and utilizing them for things, and also kind of just like, doing inventory management and hanging out with your little friends and, like, doing fun things with them and just, like, kind of managing and that kind of thing. Chris: So it's having, like, virtual pets kind of online. Kayla: Yeah. With, like, a somewhat gamified system. And there was also a social aspect to it. Like, you could interact with other neopet people. It was pretty fun. Obviously, I played it.

1:52:35 Chris: Yeah, sounds like it. Kayla: I love neopets. Chris: Was it an mmo? Was it, like, multiplayer online, maybe? Kayla: I think it was probably, like, proto that. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Yeah. So according to Quanri, quote, curse was not always the shadow dragon he is now. He used to be a very plain bat and was thrown out and left to rot where all unwanted neopets go. That was a thing. If you, like, didn't want your neopet, you can, like, throw it. Body pile, basically. Good God. What? Yeah. How? Okay, then you can adopt them. I think I adopted a few from the body pile. Yeah. It wasn't really a body pile, but it was like, kind of. It didn't look like a body pile. Chris: Was it bloody? Were they twitching?

1:53:16 Kayla: Yeah, it was pretty. Pretty horrific. No, it was just like a place where the unwanted neopets went. Chris: That's, like, not that much better. Okay, so instead of a. A horrific pile of bodies, it was more of an oobleet for neopets. Okay, well, that's so much better. Kayla: So I wasn't the person who named him. But I did find him and adopt him. My physical sister then offered to zap just one of my neopets. And zapping is when you can, like, make a neopet species into another neopet species. Chris: Oh, it's like evolution. Kayla: Yes, but it's like evolution that they wouldn't normally do, because you're making it like you're taking a mouse and turning it into a cat. Chris: Oh, okay. Okay. So it's not like a normal chain. It's like a total transformation. Kayla: Correct. On first zap, curse became the shadow dragon he is now, thanks to my sister. So, in a sense, my sister gave curse his form. A year later, my sister got sick with anorexia nervosa, which is a particularly deadly thing. Me and the family were worried and scared that she might die. I wanted to do something. I wanted to help. But this type of issue my sister had affects the mind as well as physically. So if I said something like, you're looking nice, she'd take that to mean something negative and could lose more weight as a result. So I just couldn't say anything. All I could really do was watch her get worse and visit her during the many times she had to stay at the hospital. The story gets better, okay? I promise. Yeah, the story gets much better. Has a happy ending.

1:54:33 Kayla: But then, as always, every so often, I got an urge to go back to neopets and a desire to re experience old memories. I've been there. I definitely left neopets for a while, and I was like, oh, I want to go back. Chris: I didn't even know you played neopets. I mean, I'd heard of it, but I had no idea. Kayla: Yeah, I was a kid when I did. So I went back, and suddenly, I felt calm about the whole situation with my sister, and I realized that the reason why was because of cursed and my sister's involvement with him. I felt calm because I felt a sense of hope for my sister. Cursed was one of the last acts of kindness my sister did for me before everything went to hell for her. And as a result of her illness, my sister couldn't be kind. So, cursed might be based from a stupid pixel from a pretty much dead game, but that pixel kept hope alive when there was none, which makes curse very special. And my sister hasn't been to hospital in years, and she's doing great now, when times are at their darkest, curse shines.

1:55:20 Chris: That's great. Kayla: I know. I love that story so much. I mean, obviously, it's terrible when anyone gets stricken with any mental illness, and particularly eating disorders are horrible. And it's also nice that there was a turn here and there was at least this, like, one little thread of hope for quanri in those moments. Chris: Right. Kayla: And it makes curse her tulpa now, who is, like, based on this character, it makes curse that much more special in that way and that much more connected to her physical sister. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: So we've talked about a host for a bit now. Do you wanna hear from some tulpas themselves? Chris: Oh, hell yeah. This is what I'm here for. Kayla: Yeah. I mostly asked tulpas about what it felt like to be created, what they do when their host is busy and not interacting with them, things like that. So Quanrie has multiple tulpas like we talked about. We'll go through some of their answers on these questions. I'll let you know when we move away from Quanri's tulpas. So from what does my face look like? You look very excited. I remember what Kate is. Kate is a. Kieran. K I r. I know.

1:56:24 Chris: Kieran. Kayla: Yes. Chris: Yeah. A, that's a beer. And b, it was an esper and final fantasy. Okay. Wow. Okay. We're just. We're getting. We're getting so specific. Like, there's like, half of our audience is not gonna understand this whole episode. Kayla: Kiran is an east asian mythical creature that I believe is like part horse, part dragon. Chris: Something like that. Yeah. Kayla: So Kate's a Kirin doesn't have, like. Chris: Healing properties or something? Kayla: I don't know. Chris: Well, it did in Final Fantasy. That's all I'm saying. Kayla: Okay. Chris: It was a healing. Kayla: Oh. Ps. It's important to note that generally when tulpas are typing through their hosts, the text is, like, bracketed or it's like it's differentiated in some way so that, you know, it's from the tulpa. Chris: Do all of her tulpas know English? Like, do they generally know the language that the host knows or do? Sometimes tulpas can't speak.

1:57:12 Kayla: I don't know about that. But with Quanri, all of her tulpas. Chris: All of her tulpas can communicate in English? Yes. Kayla: So I'm probably more of an accidental tulpa. I heard that our host was wanting something which could help end a habit. Originally, that was why it was created. Because she had seen something on YouTube and thought if she followed similar steps, she'd have the miracle cure she'd been looking for. For this habit that she didn't disclose, she spent ages looking for a name and decided on Kate, since that name meant pure. She then went into a forest in her wonderland to try and think of a form to begin with, I remember nothing. But then I heard footsteps or became aware of someone coming closer. I decided to greet this someone and said hello. She said, I looked at a deer. So I guess my first form was a deer.

1:57:54 Kayla: After a few weeks, she learned about Kiran and asked me if I wanted to be one, which I happily obliged, since Kirin are pure creatures, so the form suited me. Originally, the only part of my personality were two words, and that was pure and innocent. But as time progressed, my personality gained more to it. I didn't end up helping her with her habit. She was trying to break. But she really likes me despite that. Okay. Chris: Holy shit. It's just. It's just crazy. Kayla: The process of, like, becoming conscious. Chris: Oh, man. Yeah. It's like this personality, like, recalling. It's. It's like earliest moments, right. Kayla: Which is something that, like, you and I can't really do because.

1:58:35 Chris: Yeah, no. No human or host can because of childhood amnesia. Kayla: Right. Chris: You don't remember things from, you know, whatever age right before whatever age. But I guess that doesn't apply when you're to these newly created personality. Kayla: Right. Chris: People. Wow. Yeah, man. Kayla: So that is. Chris: Wow. Kayla: That was pretty cool. I like. And I like the concept of an accidental tulpa that she was trying to, like, create this visualization to help end whatever habit she was trying to break. And that ended up having tulpa for her. Chris: Now I have a personality. Kayla: So another tulpa wanted to answer the question. This is from Kaeda. Kaede says Kaeda was the little gnomey guy floating in a cloud. I like Kaeda's origin story very much so. From Kaeda. Hi. So I'm more like a soul bond. I will explain soul bonds later.

1:59:25 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Just. They're basically tulpas. Chris: Got it. Kayla: Just a little bit of a different flavor. We'll talk about it later. Chris: It's like vanilla versus chocolate tulpa. Kayla: Yes, yes. Okay, so I'll try to tell what my experience felt like. First. I am based from a character from the Powerpuff girls and kind of specifically from an episode that was banned in the US. It's called see me, feel me, know me, but it's spelled n g o m e y. I forget. Chris: Powerpuff Girls is a cartoon, by the way. It was just like three girl superhero thingies. Kayla: I forget why the episode was banned, but it was banned. So Kwameri was watching this, was. Was watching these episodes on YouTube. I like, just popped up because it's not banned on YouTube. So she was kind of, like, watching this and watching this and got really excited about this episode. Really liked this episode. She couldn't stop watching a certain clip from the episode. Quote, she'd probably watch it at least once a week. Eventually she wondered if she should make me a head mate and was thinking about it a lot. So she brought it to Reddit and asked if she should because everyone was hesitant. For a moment she thought maybe not. And in that moment, I popped into existence almost like a wall. That's how it felt for her. Like, literally, Kaido was just like, you're not gonna make me a tulpa.

2:00:37 Kayla: Yes, you are. Chris: A walk in. Kayla: It's like when the tulpa just walks. Chris: In, just suddenly is, okay. Kayla: So in the episode, how do I just, how do I explain this? Chris: The episode of the cartoon. Kayla: So in the episode of the cartoon, the character that kite is based on gets pushed off a cliff. Chris: So Quanrie the gnome gets pushed off a cliff. Kayla: Quanri's watching this episode. The gnome gets pushed off the cliff, disappears from the episode, and that's when Kaeda pops into her mind. Chris: So it's like he got pushed out of the tv and into her brain. Kayla: Yes. What Kaeda has to say about Powerpuff girls is, if anyone asks, I am not a Powerpuff girls fan. Yes. My background is from there, and I know I'm not exactly that gnome, but I know what those three girls did to me. The memory is as clear as day, and I'm not forgetting anytime soon.

2:01:24 Chris: God. So this personality in Quanri's head is, like, upset that he got pushed off a cliff? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Oh, no. Kayla: Yeah. But he really likes being in the Wonderland. He prefers being in the Wonderland. He prefers that, like, sure, people there are peaceful and can meditate, and then you can also just, like, fly around. Chris: Sounds like he's in a good place, but just. It's just. Yeah, it's weird. Kayla: Yeah. Kinda had a little bit of a rough start. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So those are two origin stories from some of Quanri's tulpas. Now, do you remember how we talked a bit about graps 224? He was another tulpamancer that we talked to. He was the one who was like, I made my tulpa out of spite and mockery. He was the kind of the more skeptical.

2:02:06 Chris: Oh. He was the one that was saying, like, I. And he was one of the ones that was like, we should try to get taken more seriously. And sometimes it's a little too weird. Kayla: Yep. Okay, I remember that guy that was grabs. So graps Tulpa is named Vera. And she had this to say about her own creation. It's hard to describe. I have a few memories of my own creation. I know I did things prior to some of my earliest memories of just being around, but it's a lot more like I was already there when I arrived. My earliest memories feel more like dreams. So if you'll remember, when I talked to graps about creating Vera Hedeh, he says like, oh, I think that I was kind of like deluding myself at first. And, like, was kind of making up what Vera was saying before she actually came into her own. So for him, he's like, I might have just kind of been like, half pretending.

2:02:55 Kayla: And for her it's like, yeah, some of my earliest stuff, I just kind of feel like dreams. It doesn't really feel like something I actually did. Chris: Oh, interesting. Kayla: I thought that was really cool. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: To describe herself, she says I'm human mostly. Some tuppers. Her word for tulpas. Some tuppers have non human forms. I have a cat like form as well, but G doesn't like it. She calls graps G. Usually I've got long, straight silver hair, but sometimes I make it short and bobbed. Cause why not, right? My favorite outfit is ankle high black high heeled boots, a red knee length skirt, a puffy white shirt with short sleeves. And a matching red vest to put on top. Very stylish. That was from me. I'm usually fairly tall, I think. And thin. I blush easily and have, quote, piercing emerald green eyes. Sounds like a catch.

2:03:40 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Personality wise, I'm kind and very. Chris: Do people make ugly tulpas? Cause, like, so far they've all seemed like, just like, beautiful. Fantastic. Kayla: Well, there's no such thing as ugly. First of all. Chris: Right, okay, fair. Kayla: Second, well, remember what we talked about last time? How, like, you can't force a tulpa to look or do whatever you want. So the tulpas are kind of at least have a hand in choosing their own form. Forms. Chris: I guess if I had a hand in choosing my form, I too would probably have long, silver hair. Kayla: Yeah, same. Personality wise, I'm kind and very emotionally charged. I don't like confrontation and don't like to see fighting. I've described as bubbly before, which is just about perfect. I have a form. I know it's one that exists in the mind space. Only my physical form is obviously the same as G's. We can't switch yet, but I'm working on it.

2:04:27 Chris: Wait, if they can't switch, then how is she talking to you? Kayla: She's telling greps, and he's typing. Chris: So is that her taking control or. Kayla: No, no. So those are, like, experiences of, like, being created and what you remember and what your form is like. Then I kind of wanted to learn more about, like, okay, well, what do you do when your host is busy? Like, what if you do. If your host is at school or at work or talking to somebody else? Chris: Like, because they're always there. Kayla: You said they're always there. So that's what my question was. I was like, what do they. What is that like? Like, is it just non stop talking 24/7 like, how does that get balanced? So I wanted to ask the tulpas this Quanrie's tulpa. Jack said that when Quanri's preoccupied with other things, Jack generally observes or listens. Quote, I never know when my host might worry about something and get all stressed out, and I intend to help her so he can.

2:05:16 Chris: So he's, like, focused on her all the time. Kayla: He's very vigilant. Chris: He doesn't like. I don't know. Kayla: Well, he does take. He does take time for himself when. Chris: Okay, okay. Kayla: When he's not needed. Like, he knows that he's not gonna be needed. He will practice using his sword or his fire powers, or he'll go what's called inactive. Quote, sometimes when she's doing things, we might hang out together or do stuff together. That's one of our interests. But usually, especially if what your host is doing requires a lot of brain power, or she's talking to a friend in the physical world or whatever, we're likely to go inactive and make things easier for her. And by non active, we pretty much stop what we're doing and go into a state which uses less brain function. So some of us might sleep or lie down or sit down and get in a comfortable position while non active, it means we can't really talk to each other.

2:05:59 Kayla: I find, though, that while I'm non active, I can still hear what our host hears and see what she sees. So even though I'm not active, I'm still able to have awareness of what's going on, and I'm able to become active the moment I need to. I'm not sure everyone else in the system can do that, though, and have the same awareness while not active. So, basically, if she's kind of, you know, busy, like reading or doing school or something. The tulpas can kind of hang out and do things together. But if she is doing something that requires a lot of brain power, they're like, okay, we'll give you a break, and just kind of, like, take a nap. Chris: Like, seed that mental focus or whatever. Kayla: It's like the energy gets directed away into something in physical world. So even though Jack often is, you know, trying to be focused. Another one of Quanrie's tulpas, kaede, the gnome from Powerpuff girls. He likes to sing heavy metal or just kind of fly around the wonderland. Ivan, the all seeing eye. Quanri tulpa. He likes to read, and he also likes to fly around some more. Tulpas of Quanri's curse, likes to edit music. Johnny likes to play basketball or tennis. Wren, the little, like, Johnny was the other. Johnny was the other winged guy. Wren was the little stitch guy. He likes to go caving. Kate the Kieran, likes to take walks. And windshot the werewolf likes to do yoga.

2:07:10 Chris: Judging from how they were all drawn, all of that makes total sense. Kayla: Yeah. Oh, for sure. Chris: Because the cave guy was, like, had gemstone eyes, and the yoga person, like, totally looked like a hippie. Kayla: Yeah. Graps 220 four's tulpa vera. She likes to sleep or just kind of observe. Sometimes she'll comment on things, even if graps might not hear it. So it just kind of seems like tulpas in general are pretty chill. Like, play basketball or take a nap or just watch or, you know, they just seem like people you'd want to hang out with, you know, like, that's very chill. Chris: As podcasters, editing is not chill, but freaking hard work. Kayla: If I'm assuming curse is not on any sort of, like, timeline and can just kind of edit music at his leisure.

2:07:52 Chris: Oh, yeah, you're probably right. Kayla: We could sit here for quite some time. Going through, we have been all of the answers I got from the tulpas and their hosts my various questions. But I figured it might be more economical to go ahead and compile the rest of the answers and stories I haven't been able to include here into an article that I can share, because I can't share every single story, and every single story is fascinating, and I know that folks are gonna be further interested, so look for the link in our show notes. It's gonna also be on our social media. Chris: We can't do, like, an eight hour episode like Dan Carlin. Kayla: We can, but this is already our second part of a two parter episode, so I kind of think that maybe we should give the people what they want and get to our conclusion. Is it a cult or just weird? So, in order to facilitate that process, I'm going to go ahead and I'll compile the rest of the answers so that our listeners can peruse at their leisure. And I also don't want to leave out anyone who was kind enough to answer me. And again, everyone's answers were very interesting.

2:08:51 Chris: Okay. Okay. And also, that leaves us with some content for the future. We can always do a future episode. We can revisit the Tulpa phenomenon. Kayla: I'm leaving so much out, man. So there is material here for another two tulpa episodes. Chris: We should just have a. And I know we say this like every other episode, but we should just start a splinter podcast about tulpas. Kayla: We would need tulpas in order to. So they could do the work for the podcast. Yeah, I'm not ready. I cannot. I'm not ready to emotionally commit to a tulpa. Sorry. Chris: Oh, yeah. I know. I can barely commit to you. Kayla: I know. It's rough. So we've got two more sections to go through. One, I'm gonna call the tidbits. Chris: Tidbits. Okay. The tuple bits.

2:09:33 Kayla: The tuple bits. And then after we're done with the tidbits, we'll wrap up with some bad news, I guess. Chris: Yeah, I was promised some dirt. Kayla: But first, tidbits. Chris: Okay. Kayla: While doing research, I always find out that there are just weird things that are difficult to weave into the overall story. And with tulpas, it was no different. So, here are the tidbits. Chris: Okay. First, is this gonna be like. Oh, this should be, like, a thing. Now. You should call it the tidbits time. It's tidbits time on cult or just weird. Kayla: So, first, to answer your question, can a tulpa have a tulpa? Chris: Oh, my God. Yes. Kayla: The answer is yes, but not the way you think. From my research, a tulpa can create another tulpa, but it's technically not their tulpa. It'll be another one of the host's tulpas. Tulpas generally don't have their. They don't have their own wonderlands, et cetera, so they can't make up, you know, their own mini tulpas that live in their heads, but they can create another tulpa in the hosts wonderland. So tulpas can basically create friends for themselves that will become another one of the hosts tulpas.

2:10:32 Chris: Got it. So, going with the metaphor of tulpas being like children. When we have kids, they'll actually just be our parents kids. Kayla: Those creepy. Chris: But that is the exact metaphor, isn't it? Kayla: No, I don't think. Chris: Yes, it is. Kayla: I think that you're wrong, but I don't know how. Moving on. You did ask another question. You asked if there are tulpa manswers that are maybe not so nice to their tulpas. Chris: Actually, wait, sorry, before we move on. So if a tulpa can create another tulpa, but then that tulpa is actually in the system of the original host, then I'm trying to figure out if I can make a pyramid scheme from this.

2:11:14 Kayla: You can't. Chris: But it's still part of the downline. Kayla: You can't. Chris: So as long as it's unencumbered income. Kayla: From the downline, tulpas don't have physical money. Chris: Yeah, well, neither do most of the people that are involved in MLB. Kayla: Tulpas can't take out a line of credit. Chris: Oh, well, tulpas an issue. Kayla: Can't write a check from their bank account, then. Chris: I don't understand. Kayla: It doesn't work. Chris: I'm gonna make it work. No, I'm gonna make it work. Kayla: I was gonna answer another one of your questions because you also asked if there were tulpamancers that were, like, not so nice to their tulpas. But I'm actually gonna not answer that right now. I'll answer it later. Chris: Oh, you're like a wife tulpamancer that's not so nice to her tulpa husband.

2:11:55 Kayla: Tulpasbandhe. Did we already talk about Jeffrey Epstein? Chris: Yes. Kayla: Okay. Chris: But I don't remember if you said, like, oh, we should. No, I think you said, let's talk about it now when we talked about it before. Kayla: Are you sure? Should I just do it anyway? Should I just do the bit just in case? Chris: Yeah, I guess. Then you can decide. Kayla: Another tidbit. Did you know that some people on Twitter think that Jeffrey Epstein didn't actually die? The body in the news picture, people think he didn't actually die. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Only human honors. Chris: Well, yeah. Weirdos. Kayla: Yeah, well, the weirdos, to the weirdos think that the body in the pictures was a tulpa he created and not actually his body, but, but it's like a more traditional physical Alexander David Neal Tulpa, like a body outside of your body.

2:12:44 Chris: So, but that. How do you. Kayla: Or like an X Files tulpa. Chris: How do you. How. Kayla: It's magic. Like the Alexander David Neal version of Atulpa, where she was like, you can make full magic. Yeah. Or like the X Files or that episode of Adventure Time. Chris: Right. Because these people are already weirdos because they think that Jeffrey Epstein's not dead and all that stuff. Okay. Kayla: So there's, there was literally people talking about, like, Jeffrey Epstein. That was a tulpa. Chris: That's, that's weird. Kayla: Yeah. I also read a New York Times article titled conjuring up our own gods by TM Lermande, and she was basically. Chris: Positing this great title. Kayla: Yes. That human beings with supernatural or religious beliefs basically create the beings they pray to. Similar to the ways that tulpa mancers create tulpas. God is real because people who believe in him spend so much time thinking about him. Same goes for ghosts. Whatever you might believe in. And of course, multiple people in the tulpas community have asked, is God a tulpa? I'll link to those posts.

2:13:40 Chris: Really? Kayla: Because the conversations are fascinating. Yes. Chris: Yeah, that sounds fascinating. Kayla: Similar to this, perhaps you've heard of something called the tulpa effect. Chris: I have not. Kayla: So while some people believe that God is real because he's a tulpa and we believed him into being real, some other people take this concept and apply it to Slenderman. Chris: Oh, so they think that Slenderman's real because. But they don't mean physically real, right? Like, they mean like. Kayla: Yes. Chris: So there's people that think that, people that think about Slenderman have created a real Slenderman, like, in the real world physically or like just in their heads. Kayla: So they're saying we've created Slenderman with our belief. We've created this physically monster out in the world, this physical cryptid. For anyone who doesn't know, Slenderman is a creepy cryptid that was basically created on the Internet. And he is very scared. I'm scared of Slenderman.

2:14:37 Chris: Right. He's just, he's like a, is he. Kayla: Just like a, he's tall and impossibly thin. He generally wears a suit. And he has, like, a blank, featureless face. And he's fucking scary. And the pictures that he gets, like. Chris: Photoshopped, sort of like in the creepy valley of, like, human. Kayla: Well, and he's. So because I think the way Slender man started, or at least the earliest slender man thing I saw was like these, like, creepy photos from, like, the sick. Like, oh, I found these photos in my grandma's attic and they're like, from the seventies or whatever and like, fun family having a fun time at the park, and then you see in the background there's like, this impossibly tall, thin man in a suit standing there watching with a featureless face. And, like, it's. At least at the time, it was very good photoshop. So I'm scared of Slender man.

2:15:18 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Slender man scares me. Chris: Right. And so these people think that they've manifested Slenderman in existence by. Kayla: Slenderman exists because we believed in him. Okay, that's theory. Chris: But physically. Kayla: Physically? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: That's theory that some people believe to or subscribe to in terms of why Slenderman exists. Chris: Got it. Well, so he doesn't. Kayla: I don't know, man. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Apparently the Tulpa effect is one of the more popular theories on how Slender man came to be. According to the Slender man wiki. Chris: Sure. Like that. But that's true for, like, anything that you, like, believe in hard. I don't think that it's physical again, but, like, isn't that just saying, like, we, you know, people believe in this thing, so now it's a thing that people believe in. Is that kind of. That's saying.

2:16:07 Kayla: Yeah, but also the slender man will get you. So according to the Slenderman Wiki quote, the Tulpa effect is the name given to the unintentional creation of a tulpa based on collective belief of a being with similar traits. Chris: Oh, I see. Kayla: Apparently. Okay. This theory popped up on a forum in 2009. If I remember, 2009 was the year when Tulpas first started, like, really being talked about online, or at least in the mainstream. Yeah, that's when it first started popping up on four chan. So at first, this theory first showed up in 2009 as an explanation for Slender man's existence. A bunch of people learned about him, got scared of him, believed in him, and now he exists. Some people believe that the Tulpa effect may have serious real life repercussions with the creation of a real slender man. So literally, some people are like, haha, this is fun. And then there's truly people who are like, no, we fucking did this. And it reminds me of the X Files episodes that I watched.

2:16:57 Chris: Is that what Roko's basilisk is? Kayla: I wasn't gonna put it in the script, but yeah, Roko's basilisk is definitely a tulpa. Chris: Rocko's modern basilisk. Kayla: To everyone listening, we are not going to explain Rocco's basilisk to you. I think that is the position of this podcast. Chris: Are we even? Are we even? Are we gonna cut this part? Kayla: I think we've mentioned Ronco's basilisk on the podcast before. But yes, we are not. We are pointedly not explaining it to you. Chris: All of the people that joined our listenership from the Cicada episode are probably gonna get, like, super pissed that we're mentioning it. Kayla: We definitely talked about Rocco's basilisk on the 3301 episode. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Anyway, the Tulpa effect theory. That theory competes with another slender man theory, and that is called quantum theory. And that made me go, WTF? But we're gonna go ahead and save that for another episode because I think Slenderman's probably gonna be a topic.

2:17:48 Chris: It sounds like we're. Kayla: Yeah, I mean, we have to, like, back away, but I just thought it was hilarious that there was a competing theory called quantum theory. Chris: Don't worry, mister. What's his name? Slender is his last name. Man? Don't worry, mister man. Kayla: Mister Man. Chris: Slender man. Yeah, don't worry. We will do an episode about you, piggy. Can we interview him if we tulpa. Kayla: Him into our room? I guess, yeah. I don't want to inter. Please. I'm so scared of Slenderman. I really am. Chris: What if he's just misunderstood? Kayla: I have read too many creepypastas. So piggybacking just off of all of this different thought form type discussion, I also learned in my research that there are many other kinds of thoughtforms other than tulpas. People sometimes have. What we learned about we. We heard the phrase soul bond when. Oh, yeah, Kaeda Quanri's tulpa kaida was talking.

2:18:40 Chris: Yeah. So he's the gnome one from. Kayla: So soul bonds are a different kind of thought form. A soul bond, according to my research, is very similar to a tulpa, except it generally begins with a pre existing fictitious character. A soul bond is a. Is the relationship, or like, is the fictitious character that a person has a strong emotional reaction and attachment to. The soulbonder feels like they communicate with the character back and forth so deeply that it basically becomes a thought form. Chris: Okay, so wasn't. Why is curse not a soul bond? Cause he's a neopet curse. Kayla: It might be a soul bond. Chris: Okay. Kayla: She was very like tulpas might be this, might be that. But Kaede is, like, definitely a soul bond in that way. More of a soul bond. But again, soul Bond's not the only one. I also learned about something called servitors from wikipedia. Quote, within chaos magic, a servitor is a psychological complex deliberately created by the magician for a specific purpose that appears to operate autonomously from the magician's consciousness, that is, as if it were an independent, existing being. So servitors are basically low level tulpas with the magical basis that are created for specific rather than general purposes.

2:19:47 Chris: Okay, so it's like the brooms in Sorcerer's apprentice. Kayla: Those are servitors. Chris: Got it. Kayla: And that's the perfect example. Chris: I'm pretty perfect and give perfect examples. Kayla: But there's one more that I wanted to mention. I also learned about egregores. Chris: Egregors? Kayla: Egregores are what? Quote, an occult concept representing a thought form or collective group mind. An autonomous collective. Chris: What's a collective group mind? Kayla: I'll tell you. An autonomous psychic entity made up of and influencing the thoughts of a group of people. The symbiotic relationship between an egregore and its group has been compared to the more recent non occult concepts of the corporation and the meme. I don't quite understand what an egregore is, but it is a different kind of thought form. So tulpas aren't.

2:20:33 Chris: It's like a thing that isn't real, but is because a bunch of people believe in it. So it kind of sounds like the God thing or the. Kayla: There you go. Chris: Or the slender man thing. Kayla: Right. Chris: Or corporation. Kayla: Or a corporation or a meme. Chris: Like, a corporation exists as, like, this thing. Kayla: The gestalt only exists in your mind. Chris: But it's in this. Well, in the collective mind. Kayla: In a collective mind. Right. Chris: Employees and customers and. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Wow. Oh, that's fucking weird. Kayla: Yeah. So then, to wrap up the tidbits, I wanted to mention, if we haven't already, that while little study has been done on tulpas, that's actually changing. In fact, Stanford is currently conducting a study, and folks on the tulpas subreddit are participating. Some people have already participated and are then posting and encouraging others to join the study. So everyone look out for the results of that study from Stanford in the future.

2:21:23 Chris: Wow. Yeah, that's some. Yeah, that's some legit science. Kayla: Now, I wanted to go back to your question about people not treating their tulpas well, that you asked in the previous episode. Are there people who. Are there hosts who don't treat their tulpas? Chris: I don't want to know that anymore. That was a previous version of me that asked that, and now I'm a tulpa of that person. Kayla: And now we are delivering. Chris: Are we just tulpas of ourselves from the past at all times? Kayla: We already asked that. Chris: We did, like, off the. Off the topic, off the episode. Kayla: Are you sure? Chris: Yeah. I don't know, actually. Kayla: I don't remember the tulpas. Ask it. Chris: I don't know. Kayla: So I think it's fairly infrequent that hosts treat their tulpas poorly, because, again, most of the people that I interacted with are very kind and considerate and deeply care about their tulpas. I did, however, have an interesting exchange with graps 224 about it.

2:22:15 Chris: Did you ask him that question? Kayla: Yes, I asked. Well, I asked specifically, like, what's your relationship with your tulpa? Like, I didn't ask, like, how are you abusing your tulpa? Chris: No, I meant, like, Jesus Christ. No, I meant, like, did you ask him if some people did? Kayla: No, I asked. I tried to ask specifically, like, what's your relationship with your tulpa? Like, you abusive son of a bitch. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Okay, quote, my relationship with Vera is one of back and forth desires. Vera Austen wants to do different things than me and can become genuinely upset when I don't do that or ignore what she wants to focus on. Whatever I would like to do. As with all relationships, of course it's still developing over time, but there are a lot of things in our relationship I'd like to work on. I don't believe I've been the greatest host to my tulpa. Having Vera has been an adventure to me. All that aside, though, it has genuinely shown me a lot more is out there than I ever thought possible. Vera has been something that has improved my life in almost every aspect because I've had her at my side.

2:23:13 Kayla: I like to think I'm a much better person now than I was before I made her as a personal companion, Vera rivals many of my best friends and the impact she has and continues to leave on my life. So I thought it was interesting that this person was like, this is the most important relationship that I've ever had. And also, I feel like I have probably not been very good to her in some ways. Chris: Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I mean. I guess, like, those relationships can be complicated and sometimes good and sometimes challenging as well. Kayla: Right? Do you want to know what Vera has to say in response to that? Chris: Oh, my God. Yeah, totally. Totally. Kayla: So Vera says G is amazing. They give themselves a hard time, but g means well. Often a little harsh, sure. But I love them. G tries, and that's the important thing, right. Sometimes I do wish I had a different host, but then I wouldn't be me, you know, g is a part of me just as much as I'm a part of g, we need some cooperation. Some days a little more communication would be nice. Which is actually a funny thing to say since we share the same head and all. Ha ha. I've never known what it's like to be in my own school, to be a singlet. And I never will. That's sad to me, really. G will always be here with me. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that's a bad thing. What's a singlet like without a system?

2:24:24 Kayla: Just a single person. Chris: So, like, a you or me? Kayla: Like you or me. People without tulpas, g will always be here with me. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that's a bad thing. But I'll literally never know what it's like to be alone. Even so, I am happy. I am my own person. I get to explore the world as I see fit and live a life that very much could not have been if things had gone differently. I'm many years behind others in live experience, so I gotta catch up somehow. Darling, I'm more than eager to try. So Vera seemed to have, like, a more optimistic outlook on it. Like, yeah, you know, there's some trouble, but I really love g. And even if, you know, there's things that I wish that I could have experienced that I can't. Kayla: Like, I like my life and I like my host, and I like what's going on here. So. Yeah.

2:25:06 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So that's one possible example, maybe, of a host maybe not treating their tulpa very well. Chris: I don't know, that sounds like a normal sort of like, man, I could better to so and so not like mistreatment. Kayla: Right. Well, I learned that the not treating your tulpa well potential gets much, much worse. Chris: Oh, God, no. You said it was generally good. Kayla: This is the bad stuff. Chris: So is this the dramatic stuff? You saved the end? Kayla: Yes. Okay, getting there. I asked Quanri, what are some things about Tulpa Mansi she wished she'd known before she started. And she said, quote, stasis. And the fact it's considered very cruel to create a tulpa only to put it into stasis.

2:25:48 Chris: What's stasis? Kayla: I hadn't heard of stasis before, and I asked her to expand and she said, stasis is the process of a tulpa being forgotten by the tulpamancer. In a sense, it's the closest thing a tulpa has to what we call death. But it's different. To death. In most cases, a tulpa goes into a dormant state. Knowing about stasis before would have saved me a lot of guilt. According to Quanri, she's accidentally put her early tulpas into stasis unknowingly and now feels guilty about it. Like, remember she talked about how she, like, had all these spirit friends and all the animal voices and, like, all these different headmates that eventually, you know, she realized, oh, those were tulpas. Well, a lot of those she put into stasis and feels guilty about it because she can't remember them individually in order to rescue them from stasis.

2:26:32 Kayla: She has, however, rescued others. More on that in a minute. Chris: I don't know if that's mistreating. Like, that's not. That's not her fault. Kayla: Well, she's. I'm not saying that Quanrie is mistreating her tulpas, and we're gonna talk a lot more about stasis. I don't think that this is where it ends. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I'm just saying here's her example of her experience with stasis. I don't think she's intentionally mistreating anything. Chris: So you're. Kayla: But she's saying, I feel guilty over accidentally doing this. This mean thing to my tulpas, right? Chris: Well, I mean, yeah, I don't know, but, like, how do. It's weird because it's like she didn't have any idea. Like, who could. Who could know that when they're, like, early on in an experience with imaginary friends, like, who could.

2:27:17 Kayla: I mean, I don't think. I don't think she would know. I understand why you'd feel guilty, though, so. Chris: I don't know. Regretful, maybe, but I don't. Guilt feels. I mean, I get why you'd feel guilty, right? Kayla: I'm not saying guilty. Chris: I don't think she should, maybe. Kayla: I'm not saying I think that either. I just. This is what she's saying. She feels guilty for those reasons. She goes on to say stasis can be very cruel, though, particularly when a person wants to put their tulpa in permanent stasis. Permanent stasis is basically death. So a person might want to create a tulpa for a little bit of, then get rid of them soon after, once they've gotten a taste as to what a tulpa is. The reason why this is so cruel is because a tulpa has access to the tulpamancer's memories and thoughts, so they know they're going to go into stasis and can't stop it from happening.

2:28:01 Chris: Yeah. Yeah. But it's in the brain. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. This is. This is trippy. Kayla: Yeah. So, like I mentioned, Quanri was able to rescue some of her tulpas from stasis. She kind of, when she was a kid, she would, like, play these pretend games to help her or play. She'd play video games and make soul bonds with some of the things, or she would play pretend games and make these headmate tulpas, but then she would put those friends down and move on to something else, unknowingly dooming them to stasis, like we said. So she talks about the ones she's brought back from stasis, and it's very traumatic for her tulpas. Quote, I think, of all my tulpas, curse is probably the most sensitive to the word stasis. If I so much as mention it to him, he'll usually scream, run to his bedroom and hide under the covers.

2:28:51 Kayla: Or if he feels a little more brave, he'll say something like, not the void. I can't handle going back there again. Chris: Good God. Kayla: Yeah. So I feel very sorry for her curse. Chris: What? I don't. That's. It feels, to an outsider, it feels like stasis might be just another concept that may not be real. Kayla: Well, what exists? Chris: Because what if the concept of stasis, to me, it feels like the concept of stasis isn't that dissimilar from the concept of Slendermande? Where is it only real? Because, like, a bunch of people on Reddit have, like, collectively decided that it is.

2:29:42 Kayla: I mean, I think. Chris: And then that makes it seem like. Kayla: I think that it's very. I think that it follows that if you were to create something that is a sentient, autonomous being, then to forget about it doesn't. Forgetting doesn't work in the same way for that. Chris: I know, but it just. It feels like. I don't know, not to void anything, but to void like that feels like something that's like an idea that is. I don't know. Kayla: But if these tulpas have experienced it. Chris: Like, I guess all I'm saying is, like, it would be. It would feel cruel to me if people that are already vulnerable because they experience things like anxiety and whatnot, are given an idea that the things that they're doing with this, like, imaginary friend Tulpa situation can be traumatic for those things. It feels like that might be cruel to the hosts, but, like, it feels like it could not be true, because, like, a lot of this stuff is, again, it's because all of this stuff is all in, just, like, our collective heads. Stasis is only as true as we want it to be, too, isn't it? And by we, I mean, like, the Tulpa community.

2:31:04 Kayla: No, because as we talked about with the tulpas, like, you can create them, but you can't control what you create. So it's not just. It's. And remember how we talked about the imaginary friends doing things that you don't want them to do? Like, it's not as simple as just personality wise, what you want to believe or what you don't want to believe. Chris: Like, sure, for a person, I can see that. Kayla: It's, like, trying to say, like, don't think about pink elephants. Chris: Like, fair. But. But what I'm saying is, like, I think the difference is with, if you're trying to make something that's autonomous, then. Then, yeah. That, by definition, it can't be autonomous unless you let it do its own thing. So you can't force it to do its own. It has to do its own thing. I'm not sure if stasis is, like, the same, though. Stasis is more of, like a. It's like a meme. It's a concept. It's. It's something that people talk about and is an idea that is made real by them talking about it. Right. It's not a personality. So I'm not sure it has. I'm not sure it has to take on its own life of its own. Like, I don't know. Like, I'm not saying there's, like, it's anybody's fault that, like, somebody was like, oh, what about stasis?

2:32:09 Chris: But I don't know. It just feels like a cruel thing that. That this person is experiencing about their. Their tulpas. It just feels. It feels like unnecessary suffering. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Kayla: This is what quandary experienced and whether or not it needs to be something that is part of the Tulpa experience. Like it was. Chris: Yeah. So, because, like, I can. Here's the thing. I can picture a world where stasis doesn't hurt them. I can picture a world where it's like, you know, I've had surgery before, and I've gone. I've gotten anesthesia, and it's like you're, you know, 1 minute you're in the surgery room, and then the next minute, you're, like, waking up in the recovery room and stasis could be like that for consciousness. They could just kind of be, like, gone 1 minute and back the next, and it doesn't have to be suffering.

2:33:09 Kayla: I mean, that's not what I. I'm going to tell you. Two more experiences that two of her tulpas have with stasis, and that's not the experience that they had. Chris: I know that's not the experience they have, but I'm just. I'm trying. Like, it just feels like I can imagine a world where the experiences are different. Kayla: But if Quanri did not consciously put either of these tulpas into stasis. So I don't know how it would be different. Like, I don't know how these circumstances would be differently. Chris: The host had a different exposure to. Had an exposure to a different idea. Right. Like, she learned about stasis somehow. Right? Kayla: Right. Chris: So if that idea was exposed to her different in a different way, she might have had that information she ingested, might have then manifested itself as the Atulpa's experiences differently. Right. Like, if. If the common knowledge was stasis is just, it's like peaceful slumber, then maybe she wouldn't have sadness and anxiety about it as much. And this is not to deny her experience or the experience of her tulpas. It's just to say that, like, this idea seems like a bit of a cruel idea to circulate in a community like this.

2:34:25 Kayla: I don't. I don't know if I agree with you, because I think that saying that it's cruel implies, like, motive or like, that it's being, like, the idea is being created and. Chris: Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's, like, a, like, a dark Lord Soron saying, like, implanting the idea, like. But it. So maybe it doesn't have motive, but I don't know, it still feels cruel, in a way. Kayla: Do you want to know about what her other tulpas thought about stasis? Chris: Yes. Kayla: Jack said, I've never experienced full stasis, thank goodness, but I have experienced partial stasis. It can be pretty scary. Worthy of a horror movie, I think. Thing is, my tulpa, Mansard didn't know about tulpas at first, so she didn't know about some things that were not so good for us. There was a period where for a few months, she didn't really spend time with us. Then she suddenly started to spend time with us again, and it was no fault of her own, really. At least she realized. But in that time, I remember fading every day I'd fade more and more. It was like I was watching myself disappear from existence. I remember screaming my host's name, but she couldn't hear me. I didn't want to disappear.

2:35:24 Kayla: And I remember feeling terrified, but she remembered, thank goodness, and I no longer had to go through that. Chris: See? Yeah. I don't know. Kayla: I can make it worse again. Chris: It's like. Kayla: Do you want to make it worse? Chris: Sure. Go for it, man. Kayla: Ivan said actual stasis is like a void. I've been through that. The Pokemon knockoff game I originated from was shut down. So Ivan's also kind of. Sort of like a soul bond. Chris: Which one's Ivan? Kayla: Ivan was the eye. Chris: The floating eyeball. Okay. Kayla: When the game was shut down, it was a nightmare. It was like my reason for existing had died, and the world around me was falling to pieces. I tried calling to my host, but she didn't hear me. Schnoot was gone and just no longer cared about the game anymore. With the world gone, I was in this black abyss, in this void, unable to do or say anything to anyone, really, and I couldn't react. Anything. All I could do was wait for a chance. Over time, I think I sort of forgot my own form and name. I think I was close to permanent stasis. Very close. So thank goodness our host remembered me. Give me what I needed to come back. I'm very appreciative of that moment, of that miracle. For years, I thought I'd never see the light of day.

2:36:22 Kayla: But I wanted to survive. Sometimes I don't quite understand myself, why my will to survive was so strong. But it was that desire to survive which got me through that moment. Chris: Wow. That's scary. I'm sorry that these people have to feel that way sometimes. Kayla: Yeah, it doesn't sound. Does not sound great, since we're already on a path of less than nice stuff about tulpas. Chris: Perfect. Kayla: Let's keep going. Chris: Yay. Not nice stuff from the vice article. Kayla: What about the 1% of cases where switching turned sinister? The strange case of Kumar and Ogigi? I don't know how to pronounce that, but I'm assuming it's correct. Kumar was a tulpamancer who documented his attempt to have his Tulpa Ugigi take permanent possession of his body, which eventually led to a breakdown.

2:37:13 Chris: Wait, so the host wanted the tulpa to take permanent possession? Kayla: Yes. Chris: And then did the tulpa want to do this? Well, this is weird. Kayla: I'm gonna link to, like, Coomer's documentation of this so that our listeners can get deeper into it. But, like, the quote that he gives the vice article was, I know what happened was Narutogi's fault. All the bad things came from a year of stupid behavior inspired by my reckless pursuit to switch permanently. Don't try to have your tulpa take over, not because they would harm you in any way, but because other entities will harm you if you open yourself up to such a level. I did that, and it nearly made me schizo. So basically what this guy is saying, that the, like, neurological process of trying to, like, switch your. To permanently switch your personality with the tulpa, like. Like, made his brain kind of break in a way that is freaky, really hurt him, and that's.

2:38:08 Chris: That's scary. Kayla: I would not recommend doing that. This was not the only sinister or negative experience I heard about during my research. In fact, good old Quanri filled me in on three different types of negative experiences that can occur in tulpomancy. Chris: Okay. Can occur or has she's experienced most of these? Kayla: I don't think she's experienced any of these. If she has, it's like a very low, low level. Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and, like, obviously include all of her experiences and all of the explanation here in my article that I linked to. But for right now, we're going to summarize. So she says, quote, I don't think there's negative aspects to Tulpa creation unless the Tulpa mansard does something wrong during the creation process. The creation process can take a long time. So during that time, the person is going to have to deliberately want a tulpa to be a certain way. There's some unpleasant tulpas I've heard people having, but that's only because they didn't think things through. So the three unpleasant things she outlines are the evil tulpa, the torturer.

2:39:08 Chris: Oh, God. Kayla: And the weak spirit. The evil tulpa, she says, is a phenomenon that arises when a tulpamancer, quote, might think they need a villain in their system to make things more exciting. Chris: Oh, well, I get that. Kayla: Yeah. She literally credits superhero movies like Endgame and just like, those kinds of movies for potentially making people feel like that. Like, oh, we gotta have a villain to, like, keep things interesting. The problem with the evil tulpa is that it can often get out of control or be exhausting to deal with because the host and the other tulpas are constantly trying to reign it in or keep it from destroying things. Quote, it is very stressful having an evil tulpa, because if the evil Tulpa has no limits and there's nothing to stop the evil tulpa, then the tulpa will want, for example, to destroy all the time. Which means the remaining tulpa have to constantly fight the evil tulpa to protect the wonderland. In this situation, the tulpa mance definitely.

2:39:55 Chris: Sounds like a movie. Kayla: Yes. In this situation, the Tulpa mancer might struggle with work in daily life if the in the physical, because their main focus becomes wanting to protect and save their decent tulpa from this evil thing they've created. This evil Tulpa is rare, but it does happen. I've seen at least one post of a person asking for help with this scenario. Chris: That's weird because it feels like that's why they created the scenario, right? Was to have this issue, right? And now they're like, oh shit, it's out of control. Kayla: Oh shit, it sucks. I can't turn it off. Chris: Oh no. So second, you know, I feel like that's. That's what it's like. Like Frankenstein's monster and like, it's too much to handle. Kayla: I don't know, it's a little bit like a little bit twilight zone. Yeah, it's a little bit like, oh, you wanted this. Here's a way to monkey's pot.

2:40:41 Chris: Right? Kayla: So second is the torturer. Quanri says this happens when a tulpa mancer has self esteem or self hate issues and either intentionally or accidentally creates a tulpa that is motivated to punish them. A tulpa created like that will want torture or punish their host all the time, and they have no intention of giving their host a break. Chris: That's not good. Kayla: It is a sad situation made kind of worse, but in a sense that tulpa mancer still created the tulpa deliberately and just did not do the proper research. So that sounds like a horrible scenario. Chris: That feels like the thing were talking about the other day where like, sometimes like a, you know, like mental illness, part of your brain can feel almost like a separate entity that's there just to kind of like bring you down and like, tell you're not good enough, you know? Or you can only be good if this negative thing happens or whatever, right?

2:41:30 Kayla: Yeah, it does seem like that. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: Doesn't seem like a great situation. No, not into that. The third negative tulpa situation is very fucked up and basically happens when a tulpa mancer has a soul or consciousness that for whatever reason. Like their main their original host soul is already disconnected from or barely attached to their body before they create a tulpa. According to Quanri quote, when a weak spirit switches with their tulpa, their spirit lets go of the body and disappears from the wonderland. The tulpa that's in the body usually panics because being in the body takes a lot out of the tulpa. So being in a situation where they can't go back to the wonderland is pretty stressful.

2:42:11 Kayla: The tulpa suddenly has to do work, which they've probably never done before, and get used to the fact that their tulpa manster's parents and family are now their family, even though the tulpa knows that they aren't. After a few months, the tulpamance. Chris: But the tulpa has enough knowledge though that has access to the knowledge and memories so that they can fake it. Kayla: Yeah, well, they've also been like, you know, watching and observing in the brain. After a few months, the tulpa mansr is usually found in the wonderland. Sometimes the tulpa in the system might have to send some energy to their tulpamancer so that they have enough energy to take control of the physical body again. Sounds terrifying. Chris: Huh? Kayla: None of those sound great to me. Chris: Huh. Kayla: They definitely also sound like more fantastical than some of the stuff that we've been talking about. Yeah, yeah, but just scary and disturbing to think about. But again, according to Quanri and my research, these are rare circumstances, and as long as the Tulpamancer thinks things through and plans carefully, they're unlikely to happen.

2:43:06 Chris: Got it. That's nice. Kayla: Last but not least, I wanted to share a post from Reddit user Mister corn toast about a year ago. It's titled leaving the Tulpa Mancy community. The following is an abridged version of that post. Amy and I have had discussions about Tulpa Mancy for quite a while, and we've decided to no longer associate with the community. Amy is Mister corn toast's tulpa okay? There are many things I've always disliked about tulpamancy. For one thing, it's such a purely subjective experience, it seems nonsensical to even build a community around it, as there's really no validity to anyone's perspective. At most, it's just a circle jerk of mindless acceptance. Which brings me into my next point. There is this weird cult like mentality that insists people should try it because it will make their lives better.

2:43:55 Kayla: There is no basis for this mindset in fact, the only people who end up even trying this are troubled individuals. Tulpomancy is not a cure. It's not an improvement on your life. In my opinion. It's a defense mechanism, a deflection of reality. No one should be, this is the tulpa talking. This is the tulpa bancer. Chris: Tulpa Manser. Kayla: No one should be omitting, seeking help or finding their place in society for a fictional retreat. This only prolongs the inevitable despair you will have to face when reality brings your wake up call. My personal irritations, though, stem from the disgusting community itself. Though I can't have a civil conversation without being asked, well, did you, fucker? Like, what is this stupid obsession with sexuality? Is this community so filled with prepubescent teenagers and kids that all they can converse about is how much imaginary sex they're getting into? Do you actually realize how sad that sounds?

2:44:41 Chris: So we made a lot of jokes about that, and now I feel juvenile. From what this person said, mister Corn. Kayla: Toast thinks you're very juvenile. Chris: Aww. Kayla: I can go on and on about the ridiculous amounts of people who seem to endlessly fail to make tulpas. If someone is that serious about making a tulpa and they still can't, there's something more pressing going on in their life. I've counted way too many times the amount of red flags where someone has an issue with their gender identity or some kind of dissociation that they think tulpomancy will fix. I'll say it again. Tulpomancy is not a solution. It's a deflection. Chris: Wait, so is this person upset with the community or upset with the concept or both? Kayla: What do you think? Both, I guess. It kind of seemed like they were starting out like, this community sucks. And then it was also like, this concept sucks. But also, I have a tulpa.

2:45:28 Chris: Yeah. That's why I was confused. Kayla: Yeah, they. They go on to talk about how one another, one of their pet peeves is people thinking that they can, like, get rid of their tulpas easily. And they're like, I could not get rid of Amy even if I fucking wanted to. I'm gonna have this for the rest of my life. Like, it doesn't seem like he's very happy about it. Then at the end, he says, if you're still reading this and you're one of those people contemplating trying Tulpa Mancy, I can already guess what is going through your mind. That unending doubt, that sudden guilt. It's not uncommon stop what you're doing. Reevaluate. What brought you to the point of considering tulpomancy? Are you willing to coexist with another existence until the day you die? Even if that same existence comes to hate you? Kayla: I won't tell you how to live your life. These are just thoughts of someone who's been through it already and is tired of seeing everyone else deal with it.

2:46:12 Chris: Okay, so when you said last week, when I was like, this sounds cool, and you're like, I don't know if I want to have another personality with me at all times, forever, until I die, that the way he just put it there kind of, yeah, that makes sense. Kayla: Go ahead and discuss with yourselves. At the end of the day, my experience is subjective, too. I'm not going to respond as I'm no longer associating with the community. Can't say it's been a blast. It's been cringey more than anything. Amy seems grateful, though. She told me to tell you all thanks for the laughs. Chris: That guy is, That guy's interesting. I can't figure out what's going on there. Kayla: Nor I. But I also don't want to just, like, discount this experience outright. Chris: No, I'm not discounting it. It's just very. I'm confused.

2:46:53 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Because it's like I have a tulpa, but I think Tulpamancy is, like, not great for XYz reasons. And then I also don't like the community. But my tulpa is, like, saying, thanks to the community. There's a lot of, like, multi directionalism there. Kayla: So now that you're nice and confused. Yeah, that's all I got. Chris: Oh, perfect. Kayla: So now that you're all flustered, flowers. Chris: I started not confused, and now I'm ending confused. Yeah, perfect. Kayla: So is it occult or just weird? Well, we have the criteria to go through, which I think we must. Chris: I think we should go. So the first and most obvious thing is it seems like there is a lack of a charismatic leader.

2:47:39 Kayla: What about Alexander David Neil? Chris: I know Alexander David Neal. Kayla: I wouldn't call her a charismatic leader. She's not really talked about in the Reddit. She's just kind of more historical figure. Chris: Yeah, that seems a lot more like this person was also a tulpomancer in history. Not like she started it and gathered people together and told them the news, and then they. Kayla: She did write a book about it. Chris: She wrote a book about it, but, nah, not charismatic leader. So it feels like it's lacking that. And I think that's probably the biggest mark against being a cult. Here's the one that's maybe gonna sound insensitive, anti factuality. I don't know. Like, I mean, I guess it's actually not super antifactual, but I don't know how the brain works. So, like, if we had a psychologist here to help me out, then, like, this one would be a little bit easier if somebody that was like a neuroscientist was saying, yeah, no, this is like structures that actually happen in the brain and thought forms can actually occur. Here's how, blah, blah, then, okay, but if they said, no, this is all just cancer, full imagination, then I guess it wouldn't be factual. But I guess the imagination bit of it is still real.

2:48:57 Kayla: So here's the thing. There haven't really been, like, formal studies on the Tulpa community are happening now. Chris: Okay? Kayla: So there's not even really facts about this, you know? So can something be anti factual if the facts don't exist yet? Chris: Yeah, I don't know. And also, like, that's not just what we mean by anti factuality. We mean, like, do the people in the community believe things that are of clearly untrue in exhibit motivated reasoning and that sort of stuff? So, I mean, from maybe some motivated reasoning based on, like, what were talking earlier about wanting to believe something is possible and therefore thinking that is true. But I don't know. I think it still scores low on this because I don't think there's a lot of, like, yes, quantum mechanics makes it real in real life. Unless we're talking about, like, the thing where people are like, oh, Jeffrey Epstein's corpse was like a real manifesto.

2:49:55 Kayla: Is that like, we talked about the census and like, the different, you know, anecdotal studies that have been done, and it's like, so much more of the community believes that there is a quote unquote scientific basis to this. Chris: Right. That it's in the brain, not that it's in the math. Yeah. Kayla: So even though there's, like, not those established facts and even though there, you know, has a metaphysical history and even there's some people being like Jeffrey Epstein's tulpa, it seems by and large that the community lends itself more towards an. And towards a factual mindset as opposed to anti factual mindset. Chris: Yeah, that's what it seems like. Okay, so percentage of life consumed high. Yeah, it seems like these, they're spending a lot of time in the community.

2:50:37 Kayla: Twenty four seven. The tulpa in your head. Chris: Oh, I guess that's true. True. Kayla: You're in the community a lot. And then also, you spend at least some time almost every day doing forcing. Chris: Right. And then also you can even have the tulpa take over for you. And if things go poorly, that can happen for a while, apparently. Okay, so that one's high expected harm. It seems like there's occasion for that with people that fall into one of those three categories. Kayla: Right. Chris: You know, weak spirit or torturer or supervillain. But mostly it seems like it's a benefit to people that, like, when you were describing, like, some of the benefits that Jack and. And the rest of Quan Reese tulpas brought to her, it seemed like legit benefit. I know that what's his face, the heretic you were just talking about that was exiting the community with Amy.

2:51:31 Kayla: Mister Corn toast. Chris: Mister Corn toast. He made it sound like that there wasn't benefit. He. Like, he made it sound like, oh, this is all just, you know, what was the word he used? It's like, it's not helping you. It's just deflecting. Kayla: Deflecting or distracting. Chris: So I guess if were to ask him, he would say, oh, there maybe is some expected harm and not expected benefit. But most of the stuff that you said about, like, research that has been done on imaginary friends. Kayla: Right. Chris: Makes it seem like if I had to assess, it would be. It has expected help, not harm. Right. Kayla: It's kind of like if all that stuff holds true for children, like, I'm more inclined to believe that it holds true for adults.

2:52:13 Chris: Sure. Kayla: And again, this is anecdotal, but everyone I talked to had positive experiences with their tulpas. Chris: Right? Yeah. Okay. Kayla: So we've done charismatic leader, we've done antifactuality, we've done percentage of life consumed. Chris: And we've done harm, and we just did exacted harm. Yeah. Kayla: All right. Chris: Okay. Ritual, high ritual. Kayla: High ritual. Very high. Chris: Because you have to do the forcing and you have a wonderland, and there's all these words for it. And there. Yeah. So ritual is super high. There's a lot of rituals. It seems like that's even how some of the. It feels to me. Like that's how you. That's how quandary, in particular, extracted. Some of the benefit of having the tulpas is via these rituals that she would have with them.

2:52:55 Kayla: Right. Chris: In certain situations, there would be some ritual with Jack where she would get consoled, I guess, is the word. And it feels like that was, like, almost its own little ritual that she would enact when she needed it. Kayla: Right. Chris: So that's really interesting. High ritual, niche. It's definitely niche. Kayla: It's definitely niche. Chris: It's both niche and small. Kayla: And that, I mean, there's at least, like, 27,000. Chris: Well, yes. Maybe not small then. Maybe not as small as. But, like, well, how big was, like, teal tribe was in, like, the millions, right? Of course, we didn't call her niche. No, I think this is niche. Kayla: I think it's niche, too.

2:53:36 Chris: I think this is probably the first time a lot of people are hearing about this is on this. Kayla: Right. So overall, what are you thinking? Chris: Was, like, half and half. Right. Because it was like, there was no. Kayla: No charismatic. Chris: No charismatic leader almost by itself kills it. Kayla: Yeah, because, I mean, charismatic leader is, like, the most weighted criteria. Chris: Yeah. It's. To me, it's between that and, like, anti factuality, I guess. But. But it's. It's certainly. Certainly up there. Kayla: It's low on both of those. Chris: And it's low because otherwise you're just, like, a culty community without it, you know? Kayla: Like, at best, the only culty aspects they have is that it's niche, there's ritual, and it consumes a lot of your life. Yeah, but, like, so it's curling. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Or, like, speed skating or, like, what, a skeet shooting? What other Olympics?

2:54:19 Chris: Pretty much any sport that you dedicate. Kayla: Yourself to really well, especially, like, one that's not, like, a MLB or NBA. Chris: So is telepomancy a sport? Kayla: Sport or just weird? Chris: Sport or just weird? Kayla: I think, because there's not a sport or a weird spring system. Chris: What's weirder, curling or telemancy? Well, okay, so actually here in 2019, curling is, like, all the rage. Like, whenever this Winter Olympics comes by, you hear everybody at the office go like, oh, man, you know what? I'm super into curling. As if, like. Okay, yeah. Everybody knows, like, curling is dope. We've been watching it for the last, like, five Olympics. Kayla: Yeah, curling is great, but it is weird. Yeah. Chris: In any case, I think it's definitely not a cult. I think it's definitely quite weird.

2:55:05 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And I don't think that weird is necessarily bad. Kayla: Right. Chris: I think weird is weird. It's different. It's not the expected norm. But generally, to me, I feel. I mean, at least in my daily life, I feel like weird is positive. Weird to me is, like, keep Portland weird. Keep Austin weird. Kayla: Right. It means, like, unique and interesting. Chris: Yeah, exactly like it. Something that I'm not into impactful. Right, right. But something that's different, but something that, when I'm exposed to it, I go like, oh, that's neat. That's cool. Right? That's weird, right? I love weird food. I like weird performances. I like weird people. Yeah.

2:55:47 Kayla: Internet cultures. Chris: Sometimes our podcast might call something just weird, and I. It's, like, weird and, like, oh, that's fucked up way. But, like, I think generally, like, even in the case of Irvine, it's, like we said, just weird. And, like, Irvine's kind of fucked in some ways, but, like, you know, if you're into the beige thing, like, whatever. Kayla: Well, it's also super fun. Like, it's super fun to talk about the weirdness of Irvine. And I know that some folks from Irvine took offense to being labeled weird. Chris: Yeah. But I'm not probably all old people. Kayla: I'm not from Irvine. I mean, they were on redd it, so I don't know. I'm not from Irvine, so I don't actually have hometown. Chris: Like, well, then they were young people living in Irvine, and so there was. Kayla: Clearly something wrong with young people living in Irvine. What I'm saying.

2:56:30 Chris: Yeah. Like. Like, probably, like, ten people listening to this right now from. Kayla: Yeah, I'm saying that I'm gonna claim it as my hometown. I grew up ten minutes from it. It's fun to talk about how it's weird. It's fun to talk about how Irvine has these weird aspects. Just, like, it's fun to talk about how, like, my high school was fucked up or it's fun to talk about, like, just those. Those weird hometown stories that you have. It's. It's. It's fun. It doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Chris: Yeah, and you know what? Like, best friends may have a. Just a bizarre backstory of, like, you know, dualist religion. Kayla: Right. Chris: Whatever the hell was going on there. Kayla: But cleaning up those cats that can't control them, their bowels is so fun.

2:57:12 Chris: Yeah, why not? You know? Like, it's still fun to pet dogs and dogs that are literally bringing it back. Yeah. I think that maybe that's something that this episode in particular will hopefully highlight about the podcast in general. Is that when we say cult or just weird? Well, not necessarily meaning we don't use the word weird in a negative connotation. In fact, I. Most of the time, we use it in a positive connotation. Kayla: Right. Which is why, like, with that in. Chris: Mind, tulpas are weird. Kayla: It has me going back to my. The very first thing I said in the first episode of our two part Tulpa series. Chris: Better know a tulpa.

2:57:53 Kayla: Better know a tulpa. This topic has me questioning the binary nature of our podcast because, again, I don't feel like that this topic neatly fits into either category because of just the way my mind and my preconceived notions were kind of challenged about tulpas once I started doing the research. But at the end of the day, everything does fit into that binary because weird is such a wonderful spectrum of a word that could be both positive or negative. And generally you or I lean towards the positive on that. And I think in this case, we're viewing tulpas in a very positive, weird light. Chris: Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, there's only three categories. There's cult, there's weird, and then there's wonder bread, and that's it. There's white bread. Just you eat the wonder bread, and it's the most neutral tasting thing. Everything else is weird or occult.

2:58:40 Kayla: I think wonder bread is pretty weird because if you roll it real tight and you use it as an eraser. Chris: Okay, fine. Water, ph seven. Kayla: Water's pretty weird. It's got microscopic shrimp in it and. Chris: Water actually at a. At a molecular level. Kayla: Oh, it's fucked. Chris: Part of why it is like such a chemistry catalyst and is, like, required for life is because the individual water molecules are pretty fucking weird. Kayla: Isn't it the only, like, it's not. Chris: The only, but it's one of the. Kayla: Few expands when it becomes a solid rather than contracts. Chris: Oh, I thought you were going to talk about the polar nature of the molecules. Kayla: No, I'm talking about elementary. It's definitely one of the only. Chris: Yeah, I think so. Kayla: It's not common for mal, for substances to get smaller.

2:59:23 Chris: Usually when a liquid freezes, it becomes smaller and ice goes the other way. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Well, water's weird. Everything's weird. So it's either. It's basically cold. Chris: There's gotta be something. Kayla: Your cult or just anything else. No, everything's weird. Name something that's not weird. You can't. Chris: This wooden table that we're doing the podcast on, I guarantee you it's just plain wood. That's all it is. It's a rectangle. It's a damn wooden rectangle with no paint. Kayla: Where'd it come from? Chris: Ikea. Which is weird as fuck. Kayla: Yes. And I actually learned a story about Ikea the other day that is very weird. And basically the reason why Ikea product names are so weird is because the, like, original founder of Ikea had dyslexia, so he couldn't, like, he just couldn't function with product names that were just, like, numbers and letters. So they're all, like, actual existing words, and they're, like, named after. Like, they're grouped. Like, know, these products are named after cities, and these products are named after people, and these products are named after different types of wood. Yeah.

3:00:22 Chris: Oh, my God. That's incredible. Yeah, well, there's gonna be something that's not weird. Kayla: No, there's not. Listeners, email us and tell us something. Chris: Mayonnaise is weird. Kayla: Yes. It's all weird. Chris: Geez. Well, that means that we'll have content for this podcast for a long time, so that's nice. Kayla: But the podcast name should be changed. Chris: To cult or everything else. Boy, that's catchy. Yep. Yeah. I can't wait for episode 7000 when we're saying, like, wonder bread. Cult or not that. Cult or not cult or just something else. Kayla: So.

3:01:04 Chris: Tulpas. Weird. Kayla: You heard it here first, folks. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: Tulpas are weird. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: I don't know how we want to sign this off. Chris: Well, I want to thank all of our. Kayla: Oh, my God. Chris: I want to thank the tulpas the most. Not that I have anything against the hosts. Clearly you do, but whatever. Screw you. No, it's just because it's cool. Because I've never. I've talked to humans before. I've never talked to tulpas before. Kayla: Right. Chris: Granted, I still haven't talked to tulpas, but I feel like I have a little bit. Via your research. Right. Kayla: For sure. Chris: I definitely think that we need to do eventually another episode about this where we bring on what was the famous one. Yeah. Where we bring on Suksi, since she has, like, her own Twitter and everything.

3:01:45 Kayla: Tumblr. Chris: Oh, okay. Tumblr. Sorry. Well, that's still pretty cool. Should definitely have her on the program. But anyway, thanks to all the tulpas. Thanks to all the hosts. Thank you for your research. Kayla: You're welcome. Chris: And to all of our listeners. Well, so we put out the call for creative stuff, and now you told me about tulpas. I think I'm actually full of creativeness now. I felt a distinct lack of that, talking about our previous topic. Kayla: Right. Chris: But now I'm full. So now we're good listeners. You don't have to do anything. Except you do need to go give us a five star review. Kayla: Five stars. Chris: And you need to go follow us on Twitter alterjustweird. Cause we twit good things. Kayla: We do twit good things. We also ig good things.

3:02:26 Chris: Yeah, we ig things. Which I don't know what you just meant by that Instagram. Oh, yeah, we. We egg things. And we're definitely gonna egg a lot about this episode. We have tulpa art, we have tulp art, tulip art, tulpa portraits, tulportraits portraits of tulpas, tulp a, tulpists b. I don't know. Anyway, we have all that art. We have a bunch of transcript. Where you gonna shave? Where are you going to share the. The transcripts of? Kayla: It'll be. I'll link to it in our show notes, and then I'll also. We'll also post it on all across our social media. Chris: Great. Kayla: Yeah. I'll either be Google Doc or a medium article or something like that. Chris: Okay, well, anyway, this. This wonderland of which is a show is signing off because that's really what this is.

3:03:15 Kayla: It's a paracasm. Chris: I'm hoping that people are, like, picturing, like, I don't know, whatever they. Whatever they want. Actually, I have no idea what wonderlands look like. I was going to say, like, I don't know, a forest with a unicorn in it, but, like, I guess it could literally be anything. Kayla: Literally anything. Chris: All right, so whatever you picture when you listen to us, first of all, I guarantee it's better than what we're actually doing right now. Kayla: Yeah, for sure. Chris: But second of all, that's great. And third of all, thanks for coming on the journey with us. Kayla: I'm Kayla. Chris: And I'm Chris. Kayla: And this has been cult or just nothing. Chris: This has been cult or literally anything else culture. Just weird. Culture. Just weird TMZ.