S1E12 - The Creators (Creativity White Supremacist Organization)

0:23 Kayla: All right, just do the banter. We're just doing it. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: Do the banter. Chris: This is like the doomed episode. Kayla: Yeah. Jesus Christ, please banter at me. Chris: No, there's no banter. Wait, what were you saying, though? Kayla: You told me that you had a podcast that you wanted to shout out on a previous episode, and I didn't let you, so now you have to do it now? Chris: Yeah, I mean, I don't think he needs the shout out. I think he has a pretty big audience. But I just wanted to say that I was enjoying it. It's called the school of podcasting. This guy named Dave Jackson does it. He's been podcasting for, like, over a decade, or. Kayla: Oh, damn. Chris: Maybe two. Like, since before there were podcasts. I don't know. Anyway, it's just about how to make your podcast better. And if you are a fellow podcaster listening to us, then I recommend it, if you haven't already heard of it, a bunch of good little. Yeah, a bunch of good little tips and hints and tricks, and I listened to. The first one I listened to was one about how to do better interviews, and that was super useful. I felt like just, like, almost 700 episodes. So it's very lot to live up to. There's a lot of content. So I don't know if I'm gonna be able to churn through all of it. I think I might just do, like, ten and then give up.

1:32 Kayla: It's like when you sit down to watch a tv show and you find out it has seven seasons, and you're. Chris: Just like, fuck all that. Kayla: I'm never gonna watch the Walking Dead. Sorry. Chris: Right, it's over. I'm also never watching the Sopranos. Yeah, sorry. The other thing I wanted to mention was how big our international audience is now. Kayla: Really? Chris: I mean, it's always. Kayla: What does that mean? Chris: Well, not big, but, like, what does that mean? Well, if you look at our libs and statistics. Kayla: I do look at the statistics, which. Chris: I will show you right now. I just wanted to mention it because look at how many countries we have people listening from. Kayla: Oh, damn. Chris: That's nuts. Right? We have people in, obviously, in Canada and UK, but we have people in Brazil. There's two downloads from Uruguay. Uruguay. I don't know how to pronounce that.

2:17 Kayla: Uruguay. Chris: Two from South Africa, one from Ghana. There's some from New Zealand. Australia. Kayla: What's that little country? Chris: Philippines. Greece. Which one? Kayla: Oh, that's Greece. Chris: This israel. We have listeners in Israel. Kayla: Geez. Chris: Huh. I know. Pretty cool, right? Kayla: That's amazing. Chris: There's one in Estonia. Kayla: I want to meet that guy. Chris: So, anyway, I just thought it was cool. Kayla: That is really cool. Thank you to all of our. Chris: Thanks. International. Kayla: All of our listeners, but especially your international listeners. Cause it's probably a little tougher to find us, I feel like. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Cool. I'm glad you looked at that. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Thanks for the heads up. Chris: Did you have any business or meta banter or anything you wanted to talk about? Anything you want to bore our listeners with?

2:58 Kayla: No, I think I'm good. Chris: Drive them away with something controversial. Kayla: I don't think I need to set. I don't need to set aside any time during the banter for that. I can just weave that right into the episode. Chris: I don't think you'll need to do any weaving this time. This will be doing a lot of driving away on its own. Kayla: I'm a. Okay, actually here. Can we talk? Chris: I guess. I mean, aren't we. Kayla: Yeah. For a little while now. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: You've been talking about how your next two topics are intense. Chris: It's not that they're well or a lot. Kayla: They're just, like. They're giving you some turmoil. Chris: Yes. And it's funny. Cause in, like, two related but pretty different ways. Kayla: Interesting. Chris: Which I guess you'll just have to wait for my next episode to understand what that means.

3:41 Kayla: I did explicitly ask you today, is this going to make me upset? And you couldn't tell me? No. Chris: So I just don't want to spoil anything. Kayla: All right, let's look. Chris: Let's just get started. Kayla: I'm ready for this. Oh, wait. I'm Kayla. Chris: Oh, right. And I'm Chris. Kayla: And this is cult or just weird. Chris: Yes. Kayla: A podcast. Chris: That's what it is. In case you weren't sure what you were listening to, we got to say that every time. Cause it brands us, and it's just a thing. It gets everybody going. Kayla: Oh, question for you that we all either leave in or take out. Do we want to? Chris: That definitely covers our bases. Yeah. Kayla: Well, do we want to go over our criteria up front? That was if we keep this part in. It was suggested to us by a listener that we remind or just give a rundown of our criteria kind of at the beginning of the episode, just so, like, I don't know. So you can follow along at home and be like, oh, yeah, charismatic leader. Oh, yeah.

4:36 Chris: Right. Actually, that's not a bad idea because, as they say, and, you know, in grade school, you tell them what you're gonna tell them, then you tell them. Then you tell them what you told them. That's how you write a speech. Kayla: I've never heard that. Chris: You've never heard that? Let's remember, what was it called? Like, the three. The three paragraph essay. I remember the intro paragraph is, I'm gonna talk about bup, bup. And then you talk about bup, bup. And then the conclusion paragraph is, I just talked about bup, bup. Tell them what you're gonna tell them. Kayla: All right. Chris: You tell them, and you tell them what you told them. Kayla: I like that a lot. Chris: Yeah. Well, anyway, so let's talk about the criteria. Let's just mention what they are so you can follow along at home. A spoiler alert, though. I did actually structure this one with the criteria as well, the way you did with the teal swan episode. So we'll have the criteria all up in this bitch.

5:20 Kayla: So what are our criteria? Chris: Our criteria are. Our criteria are, first of all, presence of a charismatic leader. Second of all, ritual. Third, percentage of life consumed. Fourth, antifactuality. Kayla: Is this really boring? Chris: Yes. Well, what if I sing it? Kayla: No. Chris: Fifth population of the cult, which is actually more like, is it niche? Kayla: Right. Chris: Sorry. Is the cult niche or not? Kayla: Got it. Chris: And then fifth is expected harm. Six. Kayla: Bitch. Chris: I can count. Six. Respectful horror. We've been having a tough time recording this episode, ladies and gentlemen. Just so you know, it's been a rough one. There's been about 18 false starts and just so much.

6:15 Kayla: Nothing can keep us down. Chris: No, nothing can keep us down. Even our own stupid tongue twisters. Kayla: All right, so, okay, there's our six criteria. Just a refresher for everyone listening. Those are the criteria we will be judging. The group we're about to talk about by and how we. How we judge those criteria at the end will help us determine whether or not the group we're about to talk about is a cult or if it's just weird. Chris: Yeah, and this one's a squeaker. Okay, so, I frequently start off my episodes by asking you a question to ease into theme du jour. So, today's question is, why do you enjoy doing this podcast? Kayla: Kayla, I I don't want to do this anymore. Don't like that question.

6:59 Chris: Why not? Kayla: Because. Are you about to say like that our podcast. Chris: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop. This is a direct question. Don't try to game it. Don't say. Why is he asking? Just answer the question. Kayla: Are you about to say that enjoying things is a call? Chris: Enjoying? No, that was our fandom. Hobbies are cults, fandoms are cults. But I just want you to answer the one, two, three, whatever. Any number of reasons. Why do you like doing this? Or maybe you don't like doing this podcast? I don't know. Kayla: Okay. It'll be easier to answer it that way. No, I like doing this podcast because I like. I mean, I like podcasting in general. My second podcast, and I enjoy the first one. I just like chatting with you. I like chatting with our surrogate audience. The microphone.

7:42 Chris: Mmm. Yeah. Mikey, the microphone. Kayla: Mikey, the microphone. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: I like doing research into these groups. Anyway, I like pontificating. I like a lot of things about it. Chris: Yeah, I agree with all those. For me, though, I think the biggest reason is it's kind of like that. Remember that Mister Rogers panel that we retweeted from our account the other day? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Where he's like, you know, I may not be good at it, but it doesn't matter. The process is fun, and it feels good to have made something. So. So for me, it's like, I think it's just overall, the biggest thing is that it's a creative thing. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Right. We're creating something, and it's not surprising, I think, that for you and I, that content creation is enjoyable. We both already work in creative fields, you in Hollywood as a writer and me as a game dev.

8:29 Kayla: Right, right. Chris: So creativity is important to us. It permeates both of our lives, and we value it. Creativity is great. Kayla: Is creativity a cult? Chris: I feel obliged to mention to our audience here, by the way, that you and I keep a document where we record all of our topic ideas for the show, stuff we've come across, groups we want to know more about ourselves, listener suggestions, etcetera. So I'm looking through this document several months ago, planning out content for my episodes. And, you know, as we just mentioned, I love creativity. So I run across this topic that you had added to the list and that I had never heard of before.

9:09 Kayla: What? Chris: You definitely added it, because I didn't add it. I'd never heard of them. Kayla: Okay. Chris: And it sounded so nice and heartwarming. So I go and I google it up. I do a cursory search on the creativity cult, and, Kayla: Oh, damn. Chris: I literally. Kayla: Okay, we'll cut this out. But I literally read about this much about them this morning. Chris: But you must have added them to the. Just, we can cut this, too. But I didn't add them to the list. Kayla: I don't remember that. Chris: You had to have, because I didn't. I remember when I looked them up, I was like, oh, that is not what I thought. Kayla: I'm scared. I'm scared for this. Chris: And so here we are. Today's topic is, very regrettably, creativity.

9:54 Kayla: Okay, but I. Chris: And by the way, thank you for that little landmine in our list of topics. I really appreciate that. That, like, ooh, creativity. Cool. And I look, oh, that's okay. Well, guess I'm doing it anyway. Kayla: I mean, blame past me. Cause present me doesn't have any recollection of this. Chris: Yeah, past you is guilty of many crimes. This is one of them. Kayla: I'm sorry. Chris: So, inline content warning. Before we dive into this little abyss, I want to give a warning to our listeners. If you are not super interested in hearing about extreme racism and white supremacy today, which, if you're listening in the summer of 2019, I can hardly blame you. This might be a good one to skip, but if you stick with us for the journey through this dark realm, I promise I have some really nice treats on the other side to help cleanse your brain.

10:41 Kayla: Okay. Chris: By the way, this is, this episode is what we call in the video game industry a churn event. Kayla: Oh, God. Chris: So what are you doing this for? Please don't stop listening to our podcast. Please. Kayla: Okay. My topic after this is actually nice and kind. It has nice and heartwarming aspects. Chris: Huh. Kayla: So if you look, man, churn here, just come back for the next one, right? Chris: Yeah, that's the temporary churn. That's what the content warning is. Kayla: All right. Chris: But if you're ready, I'm not. And now that we've content warning, like, half our audience away, let's start with my research sources, and you'll see right off the bat how terrible my life has been for the past couple weeks.

11:25 Kayla: I'm really sorry. Chris: First, as always, is Wikipedia. Right? That's not that terrible. Great starting point. Tons of reference and links. Love Wikipedia. Then there was also a ton of aggregated content on the cult education institute's website page on creativity. So what I mean is they just have, like, just a bunch of newspaper articles that are just all linked to you on this page. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Like, I should be citing all of them, but there really were too many for me to list. So I'm just naming the aggregator and the fact that I used a bunch of newspapers. Okay, then, good old southern poverty law center. I very nearly bless them. I very nearly reached out to them for another interview, but they had enough info already on their website about creativity, and there really isn't a whole bunch of nuance with this group where I feel like I needed to, like, consult an expert and be like, tell me what's going on here. And then finally, I spent some time on some white supremacist websites, and I'm not going to cite them here because fuck giving them even a tiny little bit of our platform, but I will mention a couple of them as we talk, just not by URL.

12:31 Chris: So, yes, for this podcast, I spent my free fucking time browsing nazi websites. That's my level of dedication. Did I mention how I wish I had not picked this topic? Did I mention that yet? Kayla: I mean, you. You could have switched topics. Chris: I know, but, like, once I started researching it and it was, like, on the schedule, and I just. And besides, I can't. Like, not if it's an important topic. If it's. If it's an interesting and important thing to talk about, then I can't just not talk about it because I'm. I'm. I have anxiety about it. Right, right. Like. And especially me, like, as a white dude, it's easier for me to go to these websites and, like, not feel traumatized by it and gain the information.

13:18 Kayla: Well, and it's also important for, like, you and I and other white people generally don't face the. Like, the. I'm gonna say this. Generally, we less often come into direct contact with the ugliest sides of white supremacy. Chris: Right. Kayla: And sometimes it's important for people like you and I to look at that. Chris: Yeah. And to confront that as barfy as it is. Yes, exactly. Kayla: And to be aware of what is actually going on outside of, like, the events that are covered in our news. Chris: Right. Funny story. I have this bad habit of keeping tabs open just in general.

14:00 Kayla: Oh, Jesus in Christ. Chris: Nobody saw. No. Nobody witnessed me being on any bad websites. But there were a couple times when I, like, I alt tabbed, and then I was. But I didn't alt tab to it, but I. You know when you alt tab and you, like, you see the little mini windows and, like, that would pop up and it would just, like, kind of surprise me. Like, that would just pop up my computer and be like, oh, God, right. I need to close that shit. It's pretty bad. Kayla: Okay. Chris: And also hilarious. Okay, so with that then, are you ready to get started on this unholy mess of a thing? Kayla: No. Chris: Okay, perfect. First off, I will give you a quick overview. Ben Classen, Clawson. I don't know how to pronounce his name, but we'll talk about him more in a moment. He started the group in 1973. It was founded as the Church of the creator, or COTC. For some reason, Kodka, they seem to like acronyms and for reasons we'll discuss, it was later changed to World Church of the creator or WCOTC, and then later splintered into two separate groups called the Creativity Movement and the Creativity alliance. The Creativity alliance now is a website and that's where I spent a lot of my time that I just mentioned for research.

15:22 Chris: And the reason for his existence is that there are a bunch of little, like, I guess, tiny pocket groups and individuals now around the country and they claim internationally as well, although we're not sure about that. And those little groups wouldn't necessarily have a quorum if it weren't for that blessed of double edged swords, the Internet. So it's kind of like this group had its ups and downs, which we'll talk about kind of ended on a, well, huge down, but the, I guess ideology lives on because now these little groups everywhere can kind of talk to each other on the interweb. Kayla: Right. Chris: The Creativity alliance website itself states, quote, of the Creativity alliance is an organization of individuals and numerous regional church of creativity groups that have come together in alliance to further expand creativity, blah, blah. Some more stuff about what that all means. Before we go any further, are you wondering why in the unholy hell they call themselves creativity Church of the creator?

16:21 Kayla: I mean, I'm assuming that they're not talking about like paintings and doing some pottery. I'm assuming they're using the word creativity in the sense that it's like, of the creator. Like it's more a creator than creativity. Chris: What do you mean creator? Like God? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Oh, it's so funny that you say that. According to Wikipedia, the term they use for adherence is creator and it doesn't refer to a supernatural being, but rather to adherence of creativity and the white race in general, which they credit with the creation of all worth, quote, all worthwhile culture and civilization. Kayla: Well, they're extremely wrong. Chris: So it's actually not about, it's not about God.

17:03 Kayla: It's about literally worshipping white people. Chris: Yes. So this is the worst religion I've ever heard of. They're very extreme. They almost make the KKK look like puppet show. They're bad. These guys are pretty bad. I talked about this in a little bit. Kayla: Are they still around or they're not still around? Chris: Yes and no. They're around in the sense that there's a website, there's another movement. But like, I think the movement, quote, unquote that splintered. There's like, the two splinter groups. I think one is just like, we're a website and people talk to each other and be racist on the Internet. And then I think there's another group that's just. I didn't. I wasn't able to really find anything about this supposed other group that I think is like the spiritual successor. But we'll get to some of that stuff. So you'll note they call themselves a church, and from what I can tell, they're serious about the religion thing. Sort of, yeah.

17:57 Kayla: Are these like just trolls? Chris: Yes and no. I think they, like, both are and aren't at the same time because they're so. So let's talk about their creed. What is it that they worship? Well, you actually kind of just said it already, literally. They seem to worship whiteness. Curiously, they actually pretty strongly reject traditional religions, being firmly, pretty firmly anti christian even because Christianity is too jewish. Not kidding. And you can guess how they feel about other major religions like Judaism and Islam and the non abrahamic religions. Obviously, you know what they think about them. I don't need to say that they love them, but, yeah, they're like. They're naturalists, I guess. Like, they're very non, like, supernatural, being sort of. Sort of people.

18:47 Chris: And if you removed the horrible racism, which is like 99% of it, but if you remove that, they also have some more, like, positive oriented statements of belief that have to do with, like, being in harmony with nature and being productive and thinking positively. So it's like this weird. Kayla: Thinking positively that you're better than everyone else. Like, fuck you, Jesus Christ. Chris: Yeah. So it's. It's weird for sure. So do you want to hear their golden rule? Kayla: No. Chris: Too bad. I damn well didn't open their website on my computer for nothing. So here it is, quote 23. What is good for the white race is of the highest virtue. What is bad for the white race is the ultimate sin. End quote. So there you go. That's their. That's their thing. But they also have other things. Like, they have, like, a bunch of different mission statements. It's really weird. So. Sorry. So that's their. Oh, sorry. That's their golden rule. So pretty catchy. Do you want to hear their mission and vision statement?

19:47 Kayla: Every time you ask me a question, the answer is going to be no. Chris: Yeah. And it was. That's okay, because every time I ask you a question, actually a false question, because I'm going to tell you anyway. Our mission is to educate and awaken white Europeans and people of european descent everywhere to the possibilities currently being kept from them by the tripartite oppression of the alien Judeo christian religion, multiculturalism, and political correctness. Our vision is to build a wider and brighter world. What do you think so far? Other than why do they have three different mission statements that all mean the same thing? Kayla: I mean, I don't think I can say what I actually think on the air without, like, getting in trouble.

20:29 Chris: So you're not tempted to join? Kayla: I'll let you answer that. Chris: Okay. But here's the thing, though, Kayla. They're not even a white supremacist group, so you have nothing to worry about. Here, listen to this quote from their founder. Kayla: I don't care about the quote because they are a white supremacist group. Chris: Straight from the horse's mouth, okay? This is their founder saying this so quote. I have said it time and again. Creativity defies classification into any present categories of racial, political, or religious movements. It is not similar to or a copy of any other movement, past or present. It is not a retread of Hitler's nazi movement, nor are we neo Nazis. It is not similar to or affiliated with any of the clans. It is not a white supremacy group.

21:11 Kayla: Spoiler alert. It is a white supremacy group. Chris: No, they just said they aren't. The founder himself said, so. Kayla: I hope the founder himself gets shot into the sun. Chris: I think it's pretty clear to me at this point that there's just, like, there are no white supremacists. Like, it's just a myth. Because, like, here's a guy, just has a very simple desire for a whiter and brighter world, and suddenly he gets called a racist. It's so unfair. But, yeah, like, that type of thing. Like, it just. It keeps coming up, right? They're like, oh, no, we're not white supremacist. What? No, no. We just want to write it in a brighter world that doesn't make us a racist. How dare you call us racist. Kayla: I want to know what they think is racism. I mean, I know that this is all a dog whistle, and I know that this is all false, and this is all just saying words to, like.

21:59 Chris: What they think is racism is anti white. Anti white as racism. Kayla: But I want it. But they're saying that they're not a white supremacist group. So I want to know what they think a white supremacist group is. Chris: I would say that. I mean, I don't want to speak for them, but they would. They probably would say that's there's no such thing as white supremacy. They probably would say that, like, we are on the forefront of, like, justice for the white race. Like, there's no such thing. It's not supremacy. We just deserve it. Like, that's probably what they would say. Kayla: Interesting. Chris: Almost certainly what they would say based on the names of some of the books that they've written. So anyway, on with the show. I'm sort of structuring this one like you did with teal, as I mentioned. And so I'm going to go through the criteria to talk about their group. So the first criteria up is the leaders. They're not charismatic. Like, they're really not charismatic. So I'm not sure we can say charismatic leaders, but we gotta talk about them. So let's just.

22:53 Kayla: Dicks. Let's just talk about some dick leaders. Fucking assholes. Chris: Starting with creativity's founder, the one who we just quoted, who thought his little club was a special snowflake religion and totally not Nazi. You guys, two quick little tidbits about mister Claussen. Prior to founding the creativity movement, he had supposedly invented a version of the electric can opener randomly. So I guess, like, that's where he got his money or something. I don't know. Kayla: Good for him. God and stupid thing, never using an electric can opener. Chris: You are very angry. And. And also, for a time, was a Florida state legislator. Go Florida.

23:37 Kayla: Woo. Chris: Home state, Florida. But what he's known for, to the extent he is known at all, which is thankfully very little, is founding the creativity movement. Here is a short quote about the founding of the group from the Southern Poverty Law center article that I leaned on so heavily for this episode. Kayla: God bless them. Chris: Quote. The creativity movement was formed in 1973 by the late racist Ben Classen under the name Church of the creator. Its adherents believe that race, not religion, is the embodiment of absolute truth, and the white race is the highest expression of culture and civilization. Jews and non whites are considered subhuman. This one's bad. Sorry. Content warning again, are considered subhuman mud races who conspire to subjugate whites. While Claussen's religion attracted few followers at first, by the late 1980s, increasing numbers of white supremacists were drawn to his nazi like belief system, which was spelled out in a whole series of Clauson books that included such titles as Nature's eternal Religion, Rahoa, this planet is all ours. And I'll talk about Rahoa is in a second. And the white man's Bible. End quote.

24:47 Kayla: Do we want to say the names. Chris: Of the books I've thought about. Like, so I have a section about, like, giving platform and stuff. Kayla: Right? Chris: So let's wait till we talk about that and then maybe decide whether we want to cut later, because there's another part where I referenced the books, right? And here's the. And the other thing is kind of, like, I don't know, like, I hope we're not, like, attracting white supremacists to our show, and I hope that, like, if somebody is, like, I want to read that book, that they don't. I don't know, like, it's weird, right? Like, what are we afraid of? Kayla: We're afraid of somebody listening to this podcast and going, that's interesting. I'll check that out. And getting radicalized. Chris: I mean, I feel like it's not bad to shine a light on it. And I guess, like, my. If the southern poverty Law center is. I mean, I was still literally quoting their article. So, like, if they're putting the names out there, then I think it's okay.

25:42 Kayla: Okay, that makes sense. I trust the southern poverty Law center literally with my life. Chris: The SPLC article goes on to tell us that adherents call themselves creators, which we already knew from Wikipedia. And the adherents have a thing they call Rahowah, which you heard that from that book title, which stands for racial holy War, which is basically their slogan and mantra and battlecry all rolled into one stupid little word. It's not quite as catchy as, like, pardon me, do you have any grey poupon? But then what is, nothing is. But, yeah, it's like, the worst slogan ever. But this statement is not just a slogan. It's also bubbled over into actual violence at various points in the history of the movement. For example, creativity reverend. They call themselves the reverends. George Loeb, for instance, was convicted of the racially motivated murder of Harold Mansfield Junior, a black sailor and Gulf War veteran, in Mayport, Florida, in 1991.

26:44 Chris: In 1993, eight individuals with ties to the Church of the Creator were arrested in Southern California for plotting to bomb a black church in LA and assassinate Rodney Kingdom. Later, in 1993, Jeremiah Knossol Knisol. I don't know how to pronounce that name either. A member of the COTC was found with weapons, ammunition, and hate literature in his car, and he later confessed to involvement in a July 1993 firebombing of an NAACP office in Tacoma, Washington. Kayla: I hope all of these people felt the maximum force of our legal system. Chris: I think, by and large they did, but actually gets a little bit complicated from here, legally, because there's a lawsuit that SPLC brings on behalf of Mansfield. It's like a civil lawsuit. And that's that Gulf war veteran guy I just mentioned. And then that precipitates some monetary shenanigans on the part of the creativity church, which I won't detail out, but basically, they tried to, like, shift money around to avoid having to pay. But the good news was that around this time in 1993, the founder, Mister Claussen, rightly decided the world would better off without him. And Thiel swanned his way off of his mortal coil with four bottles of sleeping pills. He probably didn't have the most healthy brain.

28:04 Kayla: I don't want to perpetuate the. Like, this stuff is like, violence is mental. Comes from mental illness. Chris: Sure, but I mean, what about the suicide thing? I mean. Or is racism a mental illness? Kayla: No, no, it's not. Chris: I mean, can you say that for sure, medically? Kayla: I think that if went and searched right now and googled that phrase, I don't think we would find any scientific documentation that racism is a mental illness. Okay, I'm going more off of hearing that question posed to people of color. And what questions their responses, like, is racism a mental illness? Or are these racially motivated mass shooters mentally ill? I think it doesn't seem. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that there's a healthy. That there's something wrong with healthy brain. Because I have thought about this a lot. I think you and I have talked about this before, and I don't know if this is gonna stay in this, but this is just you and me talking about it. I think you're right in saying the brain is not healthy.

29:08 Kayla: There's something wrong and extreme with you, but I don't know if it's a. I think extremist belief is something different than mental illness. And then, especially when we're talking about violence is statistically not committed by mentally ill people, and it's actually more likely that mentally ill people have violence committed upon them. Chris: Right. Kayla: I'm probably just being. I'm probably being a little bit too, like. Chris: Right. Kayla: I don't think it's wrong to say he doesn't have a healthy brain. I just. Chris: Yeah, and it's also hard, too. Cause it's like, mental illness is, like saying cancer. Well, there's, like, 30 million types of cancer. Like, all wildly different causes. And same thing with mental illness, like, mental illness is depression, alcoholism, eating disorder, schizophrenia. Like, there's so many things that it can be so saying, like, I. You know, if we're saying, like, is it a type of mental illness? That doesn't mean, like, well, it's just like depression. It's not, right? Even if it were mental illness, it wouldn't be just like depression or just like anxiety disorder, right? It would be like there's something in this person's brain that for whatever reason, either.

30:18 Chris: Either they were born that way or by their early upbringing from like, some terrible situation, put them into this state where they can believe these terrible things and perpetuate violence or the rhetoric of violence on others. Kayla: I guess I just. I personally believe, and I don't know if this is like, backed up by science, but I personally believe that anybody can be radicalized in that way. Sure, but, like, just like, anybody can become racially radicalized. Chris: Yeah, but anybody can become depressed too. Kayla: Anybody can be. Anybody can get PTSD, anybody can get those things. Yeah, but anybody. Not everybody gets, like, an eating disorder. Not everybody gets.

30:59 Chris: I know that, but that's. But they're all different, right? So, like, you know, just because you can get it, just because you can catch it, doesn't mean that it's not a mental illness. Kayla: Right? Chris: Right. Like, I don't know, like, I guess the other thing I think about is like, our. If this guy had a different situation and different upbringing, like, if he had a ton of therapy and a better system around him as a kid or. Or better friends or drugs and therapy and that, like, I don't know, like, could he have turned out different? Like, I hope so. Right, so. Kayla: Right, okay, so he sucks. Chris: Well, not anymore, because now he's dead. This was not helpful for the movement and they went dormant for a couple of years. But fear not. A second uncharismatic leader stepped up in 1995 to pick up the asshat reins. This was one Matt Hale, and under his leadership, creativity grew.

31:57 Kayla: God, I hope this guy just died. Chris: Mister Hale worst death. We haven't even talked about him yet. Kayla: We don't need to. If you're stepping up to the range. Chris: Give me a second. Kayla: You deserve things that I cannot talk about on this podcast. Chris: Mister Hale was a racist from childhood, so he was really just a great fit for the role. Like, if they had LinkedIn back then, it would have been a perfect role fit. Kayla: What is a racist from childhood? Chris: According to a 1999 article in the Washington Post, quote, as a youngster, Hale read such works as Mein Kampf and the rise and Fall of the Third Reich. In 8th grade, helped form a group called the New Reich. And by the time he was an undergraduate at Bradley University in Illinois, he had formed the american white supremacist Party, a group with fewer than ten members.

32:44 Kayla: Fucking loser. Chris: So when Mister Hale took over in the mid nineties, there were 14 chapters of creativity and by 2002 it had grown to 88 chapters, making it at the time America's biggest neo nazi group by number of chapters. Kayla: Damn. Chris: Oh, wait, sorry. Clausen said they weren't neo Nazis, right? So. Kayla: Well, yeah, he's dead, so who gives a fuck what he does? Chris: ESPLC also disagrees with him. Plus, like, do you want to get on the nazi leaderboard or not? Come on, man, like, get with it. I'm just saying, like, you know, if you have the opportunity to be on the leaderboard, like, just take it. What I'm saying. So are you worried? Does this all sound bad to you? Are we getting stressed out about racism in America?

33:31 Kayla: I mean. No, because I think we're already stressed out about racism in America. Chris: I know, but like, are we getting stressed out about this group? Kayla: Yes. That's very stressful. It's stressful that we're talking about it. It's stressful that we have decided to look this beast in its eyes, which, like you mentioned, is especially for people like us, sometimes necessary. But yeah, my. I don't want to take my blood pressure right now because it would throw my entire graph off. Chris: Okay, well, I get that. And I did say that they were the largest in 2002 by number of chapters, but not by members or money or influence. So allow me to take you back down this roller coaster a little bit back down the hill with another quote from the same SPLC article. But Hale also proved to be a bit of a cartoon character. He had spent almost his entire life living in his retired father's two story house in East Peoria, operating out of an upstairs bedroom painted red to depict the blood of the white race. He never held a serious job, sported a Hitler wristwatch, and used an israeli flag as a doormat. Outside his room, he kept a collection of teddy bears on his bed. And although he eventually married twice, neither union lasted more than a few months.

34:53 Chris: Hale's talk was big, but his walk was small. He told reporters that he had as many as 80,000 followers, a patently ludicrous assertion for a group that never had more than several hundred. End quote. Kayla: Okay, I'm about to say something. Okay, I'm gonna caveat it. Chris: Okay. Kayla: There's nothing inherently wrong with living with your parents. Chris: I know. He's just a proto millennial. Right. There's nothing wrong with George Costanza did it. Kayla: Right. There's nothing inherently wrong with either choosing or being unable to find traditional employment. And yet in this circumstance, those are just two bullet points amongst a long list of reasons why this guy was a fucking loser.

35:40 Chris: Yeah, so I think that's, to me, that's kind of what I think SPLC is getting at here, is it's sort of demystifying this, like, big, scary grand dragon. Kayla: Right? Chris: Whatever. Like. And they. And I talk about. Kayla: He's a small. Chris: I talk about this more later, but the SPC does that a lot in this article. They do, actually. A lot of sort of taking that down, actually. Let's pause on this for a second because I have more to say about that in a minute. So anyway, things get a tad complicated again at this point. So this point being like, you know, Matt Hale's taken over. He's grown the movement. Now we're in the late nineties. So suffice it to say that these folks are extremists with violent rhetoric. And again, just like in the early nineties, in the late nineties, some of that violent rhetoric manifested itself IRL. In 1999. One Ben Smith, a friend of Hale's, went on a shooting spree indiana that left two persons of color dead and nine injured. Do you want to know why he went on this spree?

36:43 Kayla: Yes. Chris: I mean, other than the fact that. Kayla: He'S a nutjob and like, a fucking extremist. Chris: Well, what specifically precipitated it was that Mister Hale, don't you know, had gone to law school and had passed the bar exam indiana. But the state bar association refused to grant him a license to practice law. This pissed off his friend, so he went and shot a bunch of innocent people. You sure you don't want to join yet? Kayla: No. Chris: So towards the start of the two thousands, additional trouble was brewing in the church unrelated to their association with violence and hate. By this point, there was a lot of internal power struggle, conflict with Mister Hale. Hilariously, some church members were accusing him of being a misogynist because I guess you can be intersectional with your hate too. I don't know.

37:33 Kayla: Okay, first of all, I have a lot to say about this. From what I understand, white supremacy as we know it requires misogyny. Chris: That's what I thought. Kayla: To exist, so what the fuck? Chris: That's what I thought too. So I don't know if he like, went so far that it was too much or what. Okay, but there's like some schisming here. Kayla: Fine. Chris: So. And finally, and this is the beginning of the end for them, there was a trademark case for the church of the creator name by another religious group in Oregon going by the same name. And these were like normal, like peace, whatever, just hippie folks. The initial ruling was in favor of the Nazis, but the appeal court sent it back down in favor of the oregonian church. The judge involved in this decision, the honorable Joan Lefgow, earned a special place of animosity with Matt Hale that would ultimately approve his undoing. You see, ever since that shooting spree indiana by Mister Smith, one we just talked about, the FBI had been tracking Hale and had flipped an informant working with him.

38:41 Chris: So when Hale started putting out feelers for a way to have Judge Lefkell murdered, this communication passed through the informant and hale ended up being charged with one count of solicitation of murder and three counts of obstruction of justice, for which he was found guilty in 2004. A year later, Hale received a 40 year sentence in federal prison, the maximum possible sentence for his offense. And now he's basically rotting in prison because he's also been refused outside communication due to his adeptness at manipulating news media. Something we don't really go into here, but like other shitty nazis, you know, like. Like Mister Spencer Hale was good at making his little club sound about a million times more important and powerful than it is, right? Thanks to an understanding of how to stoke the media's penchant for playing terrifying and anxiety inducing news.

39:32 Chris: So I forget who made this decision, like, what court it was or what. Kayla: But, like, they made the right one. Chris: But he basically is like, not allowed to communicate outside the prison, which is dope. Kayla: Yeah. Like, you and I have conversations often about like, the ethics of prison and just like the prison system in general. And like, you know, I don't know if you share this sentiment, but sometimes I'm like, we should find alternate, like, systems that have nothing to do with prisons. And then we talk about fuck heads like this and I'm like, okay, but like, these are the people that prison is made for. Chris: Yeah, yeah. I mean, how. How we should treat our criminals is like a whole other. Is it a cult, whole other episode.

40:13 Kayla: Or is it just weird? Chris: It's like hours and hours of discussion. So I don't want that. I'm just saying I don't want to, like, no, go into it myself. Kayla: I'm conflicted about prison. Chris: Right. I understand. Kayla: It's people like this that make me go, there's a reason why I like, I want to see this person in jail. Chris: Right? Anyway, so what became of the world Church of the creator after Hale's imprisonment? Well, here's my last verbatim quote from the SPLC article that we've been going to quote. In the course of Hale's trial and ultimate conviction, the WCOTC essentially collapsed from 88 chapters in 2002. The group fell down to just five the following year. After Hale's conviction, loyalists of the WCOTC, now renamed the creativity movement, scheduled an emergency meeting to select a new interim leader. But there weren't many creators left to lead.

41:05 Chris: One Montana creator went out with a bang in 2003, taking 4100 of the holy books written by Ben Classen from the storage shed where they had been shipped for safekeeping, identified in newspaper accounts only as Carl, the man hauled off every last holy book and then peddled them to the anti racist Montana Human Rights Network for a token $300, end quote. So I want to note here why it's significant that they say token $300. It's not because these books were valuable to anyone but racists, but the sale of these books were the main source of income for the group. So getting rid of almost all of them essentially just totally cut off their only real funding source, which, as you can imagine, is pretty impactful.

41:50 Kayla: Gotcha. Chris: And that's why we haven't really heard anything from the creativity movement since then, and why we're really only down to this website that calls itself the Creativity alliance. So from several of the articles that I read that were linked to, from the CEI, from the cult education Institute, some of the leftover straggler members of the church actually sounded, like, really sad and pathetic to the point where, like, I almost felt bad for them. Like, one was this old dude who quite honestly sounded like he was suffering from a few different forms of mental illness and who lived by himself in his trailer, just, like, hating things as this cranky old guy. Chris: And then another one was this sort of, like, in and out of prison guy who had been attracted to the group because it helped him identify a source for his continuous failure and misery other than himself. And these guys definitely fit the mold for, like, downtrodden, fringe of society type people that groups like creativity prey on, unfortunately.

42:46 Kayla: Right. The reason why the people in these groups seem to be, like, so fucked up in that way is because they are preyed upon. Like, they are chosen, almost. Chris: Right, right. It's easy to prey upon someone who has those, like, fringe society. Fringe of society. You know, this guy might have been disadvantaged. I don't know. Like. But either way, he was not doing very well. And so when you hear somebody saying, like, oh, it's not your fault, it's all the races that aren't white that are keeping you down, then that's what they prey on. But I also think there's another kind of archetype, which is like the Matt Hale archetype, and he seems to fit the other mold, like the Richard Spencery, faux intellectual, privileged, and yet still horrific and utterly unsympathetic. So I feel like there's kind of two molds. There's like that Richard Spencer mold, and then there's like the. You're being preyed upon because you're sort of like a perennial loser mold.

43:44 Kayla: Right, right. Chris: And while the group seems to have really taken a beating in 2002, losing all funding, all direction, nearly all of their members and their leader. So, like, maybe you'd even call that a bit of a death blow to that incarnation of it. There are still two incarnations of it that live on. One, as we mentioned, is called the creativity movement, which sounds like, based on the SPLC article, it's sort of a spiritual successor to the group, actually led by Clawson and Hale. But there's, like, nobody left, so I don't even know if they exist. It might be literally nobody by this point. But then the other is the Creativity alliance, whose website, as we know, is up and a runnin'and. I've already quoted from several times, which. Which brings me back to a point that I made earlier.

44:31 Chris: This particular white supremacist group was on life support, yet the Internet's ability to connect people allowed it to have new life. The SPLC's article ends with the arrest of Hale and the sale of the group's money making potential with all those racism books. But since a version of the group lives online, and I'd love to see an update to their article at some point. To the SPLC's article at some point, I would have reached out for them for an interview to get an update if we hadn't just done, like a three hour interview episode about Mary Kayden. But for now, I guess I'll just, like, vaguely beg via our podcast platform. And at some point in the future, you know, maybe they'll decide that it's worthwhile to talk about these guys again. Chris: But in any case, what I'd like to say here before moving on is that when we talk about groups like creativity, and by we, I mean all of us, not just this podcast, there's this strange and precise line we need to walk between taking them seriously and not taking them seriously. And I know that in, especially in 2019, it feels like we don't take white supremacy overall seriously enough, which is true. But when it comes to groups like creativity, it's also important not to overstate their reach and influence because PRB gets pr in the modern news cycle. And ultimately, these are not big, powerful, scary men. They are small. They are small people. And in fact, a large portion of the SPLC article itself seems to be devoted specifically to downwardly correcting any misconceptions about the size and influence of creativity.

46:02 Chris: So they weren't, like, in there saying like, oh, these guys are big and scary. Watch out. They were actually basically, like, they were being very informational, right. But then they were also saying like, yeah, like Hale says they have 80,000 people, but it's like a couple hundred. And then he got totally fucked. And by the way, it looks like with his parents. Right, right. Kayla: I think it's interesting what you said at the top of that, of like, the thin line where we said that we need to walk because it's like, you know, we have seen time and time again the destructive side effects of white supremacist beliefs. Chris: Right. As of the recording of this episode very recently, the shooting in El Paso. Kayla: Right. And then also we have seen videos of Richard Spencer getting the fucking shit knocked out of him. And it's a reminder of, like, this is just a dude that can get punched in the mouth.

46:51 Chris: Right. Kayla: And probably should. Chris: Terrible haircut. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, and it's good to note, too that, yeah, on the other high, the other side, Hale was always doing the opposite. So, like, if one side SPLC is saying, like, these guys are kind of losers and there's not many, and the other side, they're like, no, we're big and powerful. Then it's like, it's an interesting perspective on it. So I guess the way that I think about it is it's important to take seriously racism and power structures that perpetuate disadvantage in the game of life and take it seriously where it is actually powerful in matters like, with things like prison reform and voting rights and those sort of things. Chris: But when it comes to groups like creativity, I think it's okay and even potentially good for us not to take them seriously because they are fucking cartoon character sideshows. And the more we focus on them, the more distracted we are from solving those harder structural, societal problems, and they just don't deserve anything other than mockery.

47:49 Kayla: Agreed. How do you. Cause I agree with you in that, like, fuck, these people laugh at their stupid faces. How does that square, like, how do we square the violence that they've committed into that? Because that's definitely something to take serious. Like, is that. Is that the result of a systemic issue? Like what? How do we square that with. Chris: I mean, that's why I think. Kayla: Line of thinking. Chris: I think they're sort of separate lines of thinking. Like, I think that for the violence that this group and its surrounding, you know, friends and whatever have committed, I don't think that, like, taking them seriously or not taking them seriously. Like, it's not that we're saying ignore them. It's that we're saying, like, don't give them more credit than they deserve. And when they deserve attention, at least so far, it has been that the FBI at least has been on their tails. So, like, when that guy did go on a killing spree, the FBI was like, you're a terrorist cell, and we're gonna track you now.

48:53 Kayla: Right? Chris: And then as soon as there was even an inkling, I mean, I read the. The bit that Matt Hale said about wanting to get somebody to murder Judge Lefkow, and it wasn't like, hey, you should go murder Judge Lefkow. It was like, I'm inquiring as to, like, the residential location of this judge. And that was all it took for them to come in and be like, all right, guess what? 40 years for you, buddy. So, you know, so to the extent that those things happen, great. To the extent that they don't, and white supremacists are overlooked or protected by law, I think that's where you focus your efforts and take that step seriously. Kayla: Right? Like, the fact that we have white supremacists in many levels of our government. We have. I mean, this is. I'm being serious. We have white supremacists in many levels of our government. We have white. It's very unfortunate. We have white supremacists in many levels of our law enforcement. And though, like, that must continue to be rooted out, because while these individuals are small, the side effects of white supremacy are extremely real and extremely brutal and extremely dangerous and should be taken seriously.

50:04 Chris: Right? Kayla: Fuck the people. Punch them in the face, deplatform them, and also take seriously when they commit violence and other issues. Chris: Speaking of cartoon sideshow, do you want to see their logo? Kayla: Not really, but sure. Chris: Check it out. Kayla: Did they make it in paint? Is that Ms paint, it's so bad. Chris: You don't want to see their website, by the way. Kayla: No, I will not see their website. You know what? I feel really bad. Chris: It's really trashy. It's really bad. Kayla: Is it like, geocities? Chris: Kind of. Kayla: Okay, so it's stupid, actually. Chris: I mean, it's not as cool as geocities. Cause there's no, like, sparkly background, but it's got, like, the old, like, web 1.0 sort of format.

50:45 Kayla: Okay. For our listeners, the flag is stupid. First of all, it is red. Don't care what that represents. There's a white circle in the middle. There's a big w in the circle. Chris: Guess what that stands for. Kayla: I'm not going to. And then there's a crown with a halo. And guess what? It all looks really dumb. Yeah, it's really dumb and stupid. It's something that they made in MS paint, and it's dumb. Chris: It's pretty bad. It's like, I. Yeah, our logo is way better, actually. I kind of like our logo. It's not even a fair comparison. It's one of the worst logos I've ever seen. It's really. I remember when I saw it first, doing the research for this, and I was like, that's their logo. Kayla: That's their logo. Chris: All right, so that was sort of the timeline history, and uncharismatic leaders. Now let's move on to ritual. Okay, so actually, the logo is a good segue into ritual because logos are ritualistic. Right? So there are other things, too, other than the logo. For example, did I tell you that the charisma. The uncharismatic leader. Excuse me, the title is Pontifex Maximus.

51:48 Kayla: A. Chris: And other church leaders are called reverends. We did talk about that. They also have a lot of in group lingo, we already mentioned Rahowah, racial holy war. But there are a few others that I also ran into, like, the whole 23 words thing, referring to that whole golden rule of white awesomeness or whatever. But it doesn't stop with their creed and mission statement, though. They also have a, quote, five fundamental beliefs and 16 commandments, and I will spare you. Kayla: These are terrible numbers. Chris: I won't read you all these. Kayla: No, please don't read any of them. Chris: They have so many. They have a golden rule. They have a mission statement, a vision, five fundamental beliefs and 16 commandments. And I think even more beyond that. But, like, guys, we get it. You like whiteness. God, we get it. Stop.

52:41 Kayla: This is just bad, man. Like, this is just bad. But they need a better business plan. Chris: Certainly having multiple ways to say slice your racist motifs up seems pretty ritualistic to me. They also have a newsletter. I think I saw this on their website. I'm not sure if they actually distributed. I sure as hell wasn't going to sign up for it, but it's called the racial loyalty newsletter. And on their website, they also have quotes and photos of Ben Claussen all over their main page. Kayla: Fuck that guy. Chris: On to. Is it niche? Next criteria? In my view, yes and no. As we mentioned earlier, the SPLC estimates that at least in 2002, they were down to just a handful of pathetic members. On the other hand, they are part of a much larger network of online Nazis. I even waited around a bit in this muck for the show. You are welcome again. But as far as them being niche, while they sure do buddy around with a lot of these other niche nazi groups, they link to a ton of other sites. On their page, there's a whole section called WRL Friends, and I have no idea what that stands for. There's a whole section with. Sorry, there was a whole section on Holocaust denial. Because of course. And each of these sections has like a dozen or more links.

53:53 Chris: And of course there's a whole ecosystem of this garbage online. Kayla: Right? Chris: When I was attempting to find out more about the books that Mister Claussen wrote. So those are the ones. He wrote a bunch. But the ones we mentioned from the article were Nature's eternal religion, Reho, why this planet is all ours. And the white man's bible. I found that you could indeed buy them from a site called patriotic descent, which sounds so noble, doesn't it? And they are super noble, because if you read their mission statement, they say that they're all about making censored literature available to the public, which is such a noble goal. But that still didn't smell right. Kayla: Yeah, no. Chris: So I poked around a little more online to figure out what this site was until I found that. Yep, sorry, they're just a nazi bookseller. Yeah, hiding behind the whole we're patriotic descent, like, don't censor us thing. The owner of the business even posted a whole update on Stormfront when he rebranded his site. Like, hey, guys, I rebranded my site. Come buy some more books now. So. Yeah, like yet another white supremacist group gaslighting us to think that they are super concerned with liberty and patriotism and dissent and censorship, when in reality they just want air cover to spew disgusting lies. And honestly, that's one of the things that irritates me the most about this current crop of Nazis is that they're always braining themselves in favor of free speech. It's fucking insidious, and it works as a tactic on a lot of people.

55:21 Chris: It's really bad. Kayla: Right, right. Like, there, I was gonna say there is nothing less patriotic than a racial supremacist belief and working towards realizing those goals. There is nothing less patriotic than that. Chris: In fact, it's actively destructive, which is. So you're destroying the country instead of supporting it. But, yeah, it's just the co opting of those concepts is just so fucked up because then when you oppose them, you're like, whoa, against free speech. Kayla: Right. Chris: Oh, God, that irritates me so bad. Anyway, that tangent aside, if you look at the creativity group by themselves, then I do lean more. Yes. Niche than no, right? As a group, they are niche. And I think based on what we talked about a minute ago, re not, you know, taking them seriously or giving them too much power, I think it's important to say that expected harm. Well, they don't seem too harmful, do they?

56:26 Kayla: Yes, they do. Oh, right. Chris: They've literally murdered people. Whoops. Right. Okay. So check. Okay. Also, I don't know about you, but Rajoa sounds like there's maybe harm on the agenda. Kayla: Racial holy war harm. Chris: And probably some mayonnaise sandwiches, which I guess actually those are the same thing. Interesting. Kayla: What are they trying to preserve, is my question. Like potato salad? That's probably not even, like, on their menus. Chris: We'll talk about that a little bit, because I don't think they have a good sense of what constitutes a nationality or a group of people or a culture. I think they have a very warped view of that, as most white supremacists do.

57:09 Kayla: Is it because they don't really care about that and they just care about the skin color? Chris: Exactly. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Interesting thing to note here. Before we move on from this obvious and self evident criterion, the Creativity alliance website currently states the creativity is a all caps, legally recognized, professional, non violent, progressive, pro white religion for white people by white people. And also states it is not our objective, also in caps, to declare a war of violence against the jews, blacks, and other non whites. We assert ourselves nonviolently, but are adamant in our pursuit to freely practice our religion as guaranteed by the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. We demand, as everyone else, the right to peacefully assemble and the right to organize. But then you, like, you scroll up. Are not objective to declare war of violence. But then, like, literally, you scroll up, like, just not even half a page. And there, right in the banner, it says rehoa. So my theory.

58:12 Kayla: I don't even know what to say to that. Chris: Like, so my theory. Well, I do. My theory is as to why they have these statements on their site is that since the movement spawned these violent incidents in the nineties, which ultimately led to the group being almost entirely destroyed, this current incarnation wants it to be super publicly clear for lawyers that they're, like, totally not violent and super legal, you guys. But then, yeah, you know, you scroll up and it says rehoa right there. So it's possibly. These guys aren't being entirely forthcoming, which I know. Like, they seem shocking. They seem so upstanding in every other respect, it's pretty weird. But they actually have a whole section, even more than that, of legal notices, basically just for CYA, about the trademark case with the other creativity church in Oregon.

58:59 Chris: And there's actually a whole section about Matt Hale himself disavowing him so they can Cya on all of his legal trouble. Kayla: CYA means cover your ass. Chris: Yeah. And I can't say I blame them for the CYA, but, man, it feels like they could have avoided having to do so much of it by just, like, not being shitheads in the first place. Kayla: Yeah, don't be white supremacist. Problem solved. Chris: So percentage of life consumed. You're gonna loooove this one. So how much of its adherence lives does creativity consume? I guess this is one where we, like, keep having trouble nailing it down, and we'll probably continue to because it kind of depends on the individual. What does seem to be apparent is that this type of etiology really can get into people's brains like a virus and can indeed consume the person. The two folks I read about in those newspaper articles, those pathetic guys I talked about, they certainly sounded like their lives were pretty completely infused with the ideology to their detriment.

59:55 Kayla: Extremist belief, like, tends to kind of be viral in that way. And, like, yeah, it eats away at you and eats away at you until it's the only thing there. Chris: It's like, what's the word? Culty. But then we also know that there are a lot of folks that get involved with groups like this, and then, like, you'd never know it, right? There's, like, secret members of the KKK, and they're just, you know, your. Your neighborhood teacher or pastor or whatever. Kayla: And, like, when I was playing Skyrim and I all of a sudden got conscripted into a cannibalistic cult exactly like that. And then all of the people in the cult were, like, merchants and stuff that I'd met previously in the game. They were like, yeah, it was literally like shopkeepers. There was one was like the meat seller in town, and he was like, everybody thinks I get that meat from cows or something. Yeah, it's literally like that. You're like, I'm accidentally in a cannibal cult, and I know all these people, and they're the people who sell me stuff and are in my society. It's like that.

1:00:49 Chris: Yeah, I feel like that would be the type of thing. Yeah. So I don't know. Like, I don't know if that's true with creativity, but, you know, that's. That's definitely a thing where you be a normal, you know, quote unquote normal member of society, but then you're secretly spending time on white supremacist sites like Stormfront or Tucker Carlson's blog. So again, it varies, but it can consume. Oh, actually, wait. Before we move on from this one, there's one interesting, fun filled little tidbit. Kayla: I have a feeling that this is not going to be fun. Chris: Yeah. Oh, sorry. Everything that I say when I say it with this voice is opposite. Okay. So I wanted to mention this about life consumption. The creativity alliance website has an entire section called the. Wait for it, the kids portal.

1:01:34 Kayla: I wish you'd never. Chris: You click the link. Kayla: No. Chris: And it takes you to this bizarre little picture of, like, blindingly white Hansel and Gretel girl hugging her two viking dollies. And if you have the wherewithal to click that picture, it's just like, just a blank white background. Kayla: That's the scariest thing I've ever heard described. Chris: Yeah. And she's like. Has this, like, crazed smile, too. Do you want me to show you? Kayla: I kind of do. Chris: You really? Kayla: I kind of do. Chris: All right, hang on 1 second. Kayla: I don't know what. Like, that's the most horrifying aspect, and for some reason, I want to see it. Chris: It is the most horrifying on a site of horrifyingness. It is the most horrifying thing.

1:02:16 Kayla: God damn. Chris: And also, it's the most horrifying thing is how fucking adept I am at navigating their site. Now, did you see that? Kayla: Yeah, I was pretty upset about that. Chris: That's fucked up. There's. There. Look at that demon, kidde. Like, her eyes are all weird. Kayla: Okay, okay. Chris: She has a logo above her head. Kayla: Okay, let's talk. Chris: First of all, it's so bad. Kayla: I couldn't imagine this is no, there's. Chris: No way you could have predicted this. Kayla: When you described the picture to me. Yeah, and I pictured more of, like, a. This is fucked up, but, like, a yemenite nazi version of precious moments drawings.

1:03:00 Chris: Yeah, that's what this is. Kayla: No, this is, like, photo realistic. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: Can you. Valley? Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's definitely got, like, the handsome Gretel vibe, though, right? Kayla: Well, yeah, very. Chris: Like, I love, like, that her hair is, like, so white. It's pink that it's. No, it, like, disappears into the background. Yeah, it's, like, shining. Kayla: Yeah. It's not blonde hair. That's. I don't even know what that is. Okay, wait, what happens on that? Chris: Oh, well, I was gonna. I'll tell you and I'll show you. Kayla: Okay. Please. Chris: Sorry. Actually. So I'll tell you and then I'll show you. I was, like, talking into my glass. So. Yeah, so then you get to the kids portal, and the header says creator kids. And it's, like, in this kindergarten font. And the letters are all the colors of the rainbow, which, like, to me, seems a little hypocritical, but whatever.

1:03:44 Kayla: They should not be able to use. Chris: Any of the other rainbow colors. I know. So the subsection and the kids portal are, in this order, print out in Colorado, game zone miscellaneous, which is listed third story time updates, and link creator kids, whatever the fuck that means. Okay, and I'm gonna read you a paragraph of text. We're powering through this one. It's too horrible. Sorry. I'm gonna read you a paragraph of text that reads on the kids portal because we know that kids love to read giant paragraphs of text. Quote one of the. Oh, God, this is so bad. One of the main purposes of our children's section is to make it fun and easy for children to learn about our racial religion, creativity. We have included games to play, stories to read, and much more. Over the next few months.

1:04:37 Chris: We want to create a creator kids art, poetry, and story page. This is so poorly written. So if your child is talented in any of these areas, please send it to the staff of creator kids so we can add it to our upcoming section. It looks like it hasn't been updated in forever. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: We will try to add as much as possible to this section of the Creativity alliance website. We want our children to grow up loving their race, and we want to stop them from being influenced by the sick and degenerate society of today, which promotes the destruction of our racial heritage and all sorts of other degeneracy. It is our duty as white people to stop the decline of our white civilizations all over the world, which has been on constant downfall since 1945. It all started. What, I don't know, since the good guys won world War two, I think, is what they mean. It all starts with the proper raising of our children. We will also start a history section randomly, like, oh, history, too, where we will focus on many wonderful aryan men and women.

1:05:35 Chris: It's time our children knew of our heroic men and women who fought past and present to secure their future. Education is the key. So how about that, eh? Fun for the whole family. Kayla: Not really. Chris: To be fair to them, I'm like, I'm not going to not teach my kids that white supremacists are pathetic human virus ass hats. So, you know, I guess we should also probably send our kids to this site, though, right? So they can hear both sides. I hear a lot these days that it's important to give a platform to both sides of a completely and totally legitimate debate. That is definitely debate and not anti rational psycho playing the victim card to get undeserved airtime. So we should send. What? No, you know, we should have our kids read normal stuff and also super racist stuff. They gotta hear both sides of the argument, man.

1:06:24 Kayla: God. Chris: Yeah, that's. Kayla: That's a. That's a joke, kids. For anyone listening, what. What my co host here is saying is that on some things, there is not a both sides. There's not of both sides here. Is that what you're saying? Chris: Yeah, I believe that's. That's what I was saying. Kayla: Is that. Okay, good. Chris: Yes. Here on joke explainers on cult are just weird. That's fair. That's fair. It's fair. Don't look at me like that. Anyway, here's their greater kids that. You see the font? Education is the key. It's got a little kid. Kayla: I hate this website. Chris: Yeah, I'm glad I anybody shared this virus with you.

1:07:05 Kayla: Okay, obviously, this goes without saying. If anybody who takes their children to this website should not have their children. Oh, yeah, that's child abuse. Chris: Yeah, it's not good. Kayla: That's child abuse. And I hope that your children are taken away from you. Chris: Yeah, it's bad. You got to stop training your kids to be nazis. All right, you ready for that next criteria? Kayla: I wish. I've never wished more than in this moment that we had fewer criteria. Chris: Yeah, we're getting there, though. We're close. We're close. Okay, the next criteria is antifactuality. Oh, antifactuality. You are the stalwart box. We check almost every single episode. It's almost like. It's almost like our podcast has a theme. It's almost like the struggle to find kernels of truth in the vast ocean of lies, pseudoscience, and alternative facts is one of the defining struggles of our current civilization. Zooming back in, though creativity is obviously no exception. I believe I've already mentioned that they are into Holocaust denial, but there's plenty more than that. In fact, I'd say that the very thing that they name themselves after is their prime falsehood. If you recall back from the top of the episode, they call themselves creativity because they allege white people are the creators of all worthwhile culture and civilization. There's an easy one word rebuttal for that. Tacos.

1:08:23 Chris: And if I had to list all of the historical contributions to civilization made by non white people, well, then, first of all, we'd be here for days, because Europeans are only about 10% of the world population. But also, there's a hidden false premise in the statement to begin with, and that white people isn't even really, like, historically, a thing. Kayla: Right? Chris: Do Belgians make great beer? Definitely. Did the French know how to use butter? Yep. And also, thank you for the Statue of Liberty. The UK gave us Monty Python and Spain gives us paella. But these cultures are vastly different from one another and have no real connection to the skin color of their inhabitants, other than, by coincidence, there are non white british people who are comedians and are hilarious, as Monty Python ever is, for example. And God forbid we track this all through the historical contributions to civilization, which white supremacists tend to like to do, that the Greeks, for example, invented democracy and geometry and a hundred other things. But were they white? Yes and no. No and yes. The point is that. But for them, it's meaningless. They were Greek. And what about the Romans? They gave us engineering and Latin.

1:09:31 Chris: And were they white? Again, meaningless. And this is all without even discussing all of the contributions from continents other than Europe. Africa gives us writing and irrigation and the great pyramids. Asian peoples invented gunpowder, etcetera. I seriously can't go down this rabbit hole because we don't have time. But the bit about ancient Rome, I'm segueing us back into the racial anti factuality because the creativity movement fucking loves Rome. And they, like, use Latin a lot because they think that Rome is, like, the perfect example of what they're talking about, with white people being the only contributors to civilization, even though in reality Rome was massively cosmopolitan and also a Roman wouldn't have any idea what you're talking about if you called one of them something that is a modernization cultural construct that is white person.

1:10:22 Kayla: Right? Chris: That wasn't a thing. Kayla: Right. Chris: There were Romans, there were people from different places. And I'm not saying that skin color wasn't a thing, and I'm sure that skin color, indeed, as long as people are going to judge others on their appearances, then skin color is going to be something that will factor into societies. But this modern construct of, like, you know, white, black, all that stuff, like a Roman would be like, what? What are you talking about? Kayla: Right. There were people from all over, like, that part of the world living in Rome, right. Chris: And like. Like, I don't know, the top of. Kayla: Like, Britain to, like, the top of Africa, right. Chris: Further down it from. From Egypt to. To the British Isles to. To Germany to Persia, from everywhere, right? And all roads, as they say, led to Rome. And that's why it was so cosmopolitan is that, you know, it's as a capital, it was very migratory.

1:11:22 Kayla: Interesting. Chris: Yeah. So just like, it just wasn't a thing. And even if. Even if that wasn't a thing, like, who's to say whether Romans were, like, I don't even know if Romans were, like, Italian. Right? Like, it's just so far removed from the constructs that we apply to, like, these socio cultural things today that it's a just, like, completely meaningless to draw that comparison. Kayla: Right. It's like, when you said, are Romans Italians? It's kind of like, no, because Italy wasn't a thing until, like, the 18 hundreds or whatever. Like, Italy was a bunch of, like, separate. Chris: Right. Kayla: Nation states or whatever. Chris: Right. Kayla: And then it only became Italy, like, fairly recently, so, no, they weren't. Chris: Right. Yeah, exactly. So do you want a little more anti factuality? Because it got a little more one of the things we always talk about with antifactualized, closed, logical systems motivated reasoning. And I know this is shocking, but creativity has this, too.

1:12:15 Kayla: Oh. What? Chris: They share a particular conspiracy theory with other white supremacists and that they believe that even though their members and friends espouse and sometimes commit violence, that's okay, because they are the ones being oppressed by the government, which is being controlled by jewish, multicultural, whatever forces. So this allows them to contextualize everything that might pierce the veil of their lies as coming from the other side or the enemy, you know, like every other closed, logical system we've discussed on this. Kayla: Yep. That sounds pretty textbook. Chris: Yep. Okay. Last bit of antifactuality I swear. I want to talk about this because you and I discussed this the other day, and it's come up on the show before and will again. But these guys also make a shitty mockery of science by selectively applying their tiny sliver of understanding about it. You know, a lot like what the bleep did with quantum mechanics, right? And I'll bet you can guess exactly what sort of science they like to bastardize. Can you guess?

1:13:10 Kayla: Biology. Human biology. Chris: Genetics. Kayla: Genetics. Chris: Weird here. Kayla: I just do like phrenology, too, in that shit. Chris: I mean, I didn't see it on their website, but I'm sure they do. I know Quillet does. So here, I shall read you. I think this is the last quote from their lovely website. There's, like, this random ass sidebar illustration of a DNA molecule, and then they call it the double helix. And they have the following block of text. Kayla: I'm so upset about whatever you're about to say. Chris: The shape of DNA, nature's way of maintaining our white racial brotherhood, appears like a spiral staircase, or twisted ladder. The stairway's railings are composed of sugars and phosphates. When a cell divides free production, the helix unwinds and splits down the middle like a zipper, in order to copy itself. The end. That was the end of the quote. So it's like.

1:13:59 Kayla: Wait, wait, what? Chris: Yeah, it's, like, not even clever word judo. It's literally just like a random racist ass statement stapled to another statement about how DNA works. Kayla: Yeah, it's like they said a racist thing, and then they, like, flipped the page in my 7th grade biology textbook. Chris: Biology textbook? Kayla: Like, are we gonna do Punnett squares next? Chris: No, it was really weird. And it's just like, that's. It isn't even linked anything. It's just like a little blurb. Kayla: I'm confused. This is very confusing. Chris: So, anyway, I don't feel very good for the anti factuality because we don't want to be here another 10 hours talking about how hard it is for a bunch of racists to grasp reality. Okay, that would be a colossal waste of time. We've already wasted a ton of it. So let's wrap up this tale by just saying again that these guys are about as unimportant as you can possibly be. So don't let this topic get you down. Don't let this topic scare you. Don't let this group scare you. I really do believe that the good guys outnumber the bad ones, but also stay vigilant and put up a good fight where it matters, like, with things like mass incarceration and voting rights and gerrymandering and other things that keep actually powerful, shitty people able to remain in power.

1:15:13 Chris: Okay, Kayla, are you ready to cast our light of judgment? I mean, I know this. No, this one's gonna be a tough one to make a call on. This is a real squeaker. But I think for the sake of consistency and process, which are very important to me, I think we do need to have you go through the criteria and make a call. So here's our criteria. Shitty asmr sheet. Here you go. Go. Kayla: Okay. Here's the thing, though. Chris: I know, actually, let me say it before you do. I kind of probably shouldn't have done this topic. I actually really don't think that. I don't think it's inappropriate for the show based on, like, oh, we shouldn't cover racist stuff because it's important to examine these things, too, even if it churns half our audience. But I do think that it's, like, inappropriate for, like, being way too culty. And I don't really have a good answer to that other than. Actually. I don't have a good answer to that.

1:16:06 Kayla: Well, it's actually interesting. Chris: This is sort of like an oopsie. Like, it's too culty for culture. Just weird. And I knew that pretty early on looking into these guys, and I went ahead and researched them anyway. Kayla: That's okay, because my topic for next time is, like, also very inappropriate for the binary. Chris: I think we need to, like, really. I think we need to really rein this back in. Kayla: I disagree. I think so. I think that. Chris: Well, we're not cult or just cult. Kayla: I think that we currently live in a world where we need to call a spade. Chris: Sure. Kayla: And we don't live in a world where it's necessarily, like, fair. Everyone's going like, yep, white supremacists. Those are the cult people. Like, right.

1:16:52 Chris: I know. Kayla: I think it's. Chris: But creativity, like, wow. You know, like, I mean, I don't know. I agree with you that it's important to talk about this stuff. Kayla: I think that teal swan. Chris: I don't know if it's on brand for our show. Kayla: Teal Swan was pretty culty. Chris: She was. But if you recall from Teal Swan, we talked about this. You didn't quite grasp how culty it was until you were, like, two thirds of the way through the research. Whereas with creativity, I, like, I read, like, the first or second line of the Wikipedia page and was like, oh, yeah, they're definitely cult. So I think that's where I kind of messed up. I think it's okay if we, like. By the time we get through research, we're like, cult. Kayla: Right? Chris: But this one, I totally could have just saved us time. I've been like, hey, there's a cult. It's called creativity. Anyway, next topic.

1:17:36 Kayla: Yeah, this is a cult. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: I mean, okay, I'll go down the list of the. What we have, even though we've kind of done that, so did harm. Hi. Yeah, they kill people. Chris: Violence kill people. Kayla: White supremacists. White supremacy. White supremacist terrorists have killed a lot of people. Population of cult. Which is the. Is it niche or is it not? I think that you answered that already with the. The creativity movement or the creative church, whatever the fuck this thing is called, is very niche and fringy and clearly culty. And unfortunately, white supremacy as a whole is not. And that's why we must remain vigilant on that front. But for this. For this specific group, niche, antifactuality, close logical system. You explain that very well. A belief in racial supremacy. A belief in white supremacy is just based entirely on anti facts. So. Correct. Percentage of life consumed. What did you say about that one?

1:18:37 Chris: Well, do you remember the kids? I mean, again, it varies. Right. But, like. Kayla: I mean, I know that there's a kid section on the website, but we didn't talk about, like, Timmy has believed in this his whole life. The only person we talked about believing it in this whole life was that. Chris: One loser leader, Matt Hale. Yeah. And I don't. And he wasn't. I don't think he was inoculated into racism from creativity. I think it was other things. Then he got into creativity. I don't actually know if there are any kids that have ever been to the creativity kids website. There's probably been a couple, but, I mean. Yeah, I don't know. This one is. Could kind of go either way. Kayla: I think it's. I think that it's. I think that we've run into that a lot.

1:19:18 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Where it's kind of, like, varies. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: We've been given examples of where it takes up your whole fucking life. And then we gave examples of how people are able to kind of, like, there are people out, obviously out there in this world that can kind of compartmentalize that ritual. We saw their dumb flag. It was stupid. They have stupid names for each other. Chris: They have that stupid name that I don't want to say again. Kayla: Yeah, please don't. And charismatic leader or in this case, anti charismatic leader. Got a couple. Chris: It has a leader. Kayla: It's a cult. Chris: Yeah, it's a cult. Yeah. They're hella cult. I mean, they had, like, more material than I saw for a lot of different things. Like, they had some of the most material I've seen on the CEI's website.

1:20:05 Kayla: Oh, really? Chris: Yeah, I mean, like, most of the time on CEI, it's like, a couple articles, but this one was just, like, 30 articles. Kayla: Why was there. Why were there so many, do you think? Chris: I don't know. Because I read a lot of them, and they were all there. A lot of them were similar. I think it's because these guys made the news a bit in the nineties. Kayla: Okay. Chris: And so there was, like, a lot of newspaper articles that they could link to. Kayla: Right. Chris: Whereas most of the time, the CI is, like, writing their own stuff. I'm not. I'm really not sure, but I think that's why. Kayla: Okay. Yeah, it's a cult, and it's a bad cult. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I'm glad that it's. That this particular cult is mostly dead. I'm glad that one of its leaders is rotting in jail. I hope that the one rotting in jail is able to make some sort of miraculous transformAtion.

1:20:48 Chris: Hope so. Kayla: The end. Chris: So I was wondering, as I wrote this, you know how we usually post about our episodes in online forums that are relevant to the topic? Kayla: I'm gonna say that maybe we avoid posting on Reddit for this one or anywhere else on the Internet. Chris: Yeah. But actually, I would like to give a shout out to all the folks that are actually still listening to us at this point. But anybody that's here from r antimlm, r Orange County, r Star Citizen, r anthropology, r vegan, the TL Truther Group, and the anti MLM coalition on Facebook and Pink Truth, if you're still listening. Thanks for listening. But, yeah, so I don't know where we should promo this one.

1:21:29 Kayla: Like, I think it's okay if maybe this one just gets a, you know, you don't want to, like, stand on its own legs. Chris: You don't want to go create a post on Stormfront or something. Kayla: Absolutely not. Chris: In any case, this brings us to the end of this part of the episode. Kayla: Oh, there's more. Chris: We are finished talking about the creativity church alliance movement. Kayla: That's good. I'm glad. I didn't like talking about them, and I'm glad to be done. Chris: There's one thing that we haven't yet talked about. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Can you guess what it is, no creativity. Kayla: Ooh. Chris: We haven't talked about creativity yet. We have not, like, actual, real creativity. The thing we started the show off talking about, the reason we do this podcast. So I think that in an episode about creativity, we should talk about creativity, don't you?

1:22:22 Kayla: Yes. Chris: Listeners, as I promised earlier, if you stuck with us to the end, I would have some nice, juicy rewards. And this isn't just because I feel bad about filling your ears with trash, which I do feel bad, or because I want to bleach my own brain after talking about this for an hour and a half, which I do want to bleach myself. But this is also because I feel that it's important to know that for every hateful, irrational asshole out there are also people out there that are brilliant and kind and understanding and creative. And I don't have any data on this, but my guess is that they really do outnumber the bad guys, and their stories deserve to be told far more than the story I've already told you today. Chris: So, without further ado, please allow me to introduce you to a few folks who are real creators.

1:23:05 Kayla: Thank you. What thanks. I am thanking you. I appreciate this part. Chris: Story, the first. As a brief thematic transition to the rest of the episode, I'd like to tell you about a group that is truly doing what we usually describe as the Lord's work. The name of the group is called life after hate. Life after Hate was founded in 2011 by a small team of folks who themselves were ex members of extremist hate groups with the mission of helping others succeed in what they had done, leaving extremism behind. Life after hate has since grown, and now they are 501, headquartered in Chicago. They are a diverse group themselves, with former extremists from a variety of extremist hate groups. Although they do focus primarily on white supremacy, they rely on donations for funding. Actually, there's a fucked up story about their funding situation. The department.

1:24:01 Kayla: Why is it fucked up? Chris: The Department of Homeland Security, under the Obama administration, awarded Life after hate $400,000 grant. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Under the, quote, countering violent extremism task force. Kayla: Okay, that sounds good. Chris: Later in 2017, the follow up presidential administration decided to discontinue this grant. Kayla: Well, that's a pretty dumb, bad decision. Can't say that's a decision I agree with. Chris: Mmm. But since this is the good news section of the podcast, there's a silver lining. In response to this grant cutting, they actually received a wave of donations totaling to over 500,000.

1:24:44 Kayla: Dang. Chris: So bad job. Trump. DHS good job, citizens. Kayla: I guess that's okay. Chris: So anyway, if you want to donate to life after hate, their URL is super easy to remember. It's just lifeafter eight.org dot. Kayla: Yeah. And they're amazing. And do you remember when went to, was it a rally? Was it a protest? I don't remember. Chris: We should probably call it a protest on this episode. Kayla: Well, yeah, it was a protest. Chris: Just. Just, you know, I don't remember what it was. Kayla: Some sort of protest. It was protesting. It was like counter protest to. Chris: Oh, the one in Laguna. Yeah. Kayla: White supremacists and white supremacist adjacent folks. And life after hate. I just wanted to. I want. I remember wanting to reach out to them to be like, hey, is it okay if we, like, you know, arm ourselves with some of your literature in case there's anybody interested in reading it or looking at it? And they were really responsive and really supportive. And it just seems like, you know, that brief interaction I've had with that group was encouraging to me. And just seeing all of the incredible work that they do elsewhere, it just. Yeah, these are clearly good folk.

1:25:55 Chris: Yeah. And we're keeping this brief here, but, yeah, they have a lot of good success stories under their belts. But again, you know, they are former extremists themselves. Right. So it's like this interesting dichotomy. It's like they're. They're really good folk, but they come from. That comes from a place of having made mistakes themselves. Kayla: Right, right. Chris: And actually, before we go on to our second story, I want to leave you with a quote that I think is important in the context of the rest of the episode and actually kind of in context of what we just said, even. And it's a quote that I find personally challenging because I know that I can be guilty of lacking compassion and empathy for extremists. And I. And I know a lot of what I've said here today on the episode has been mocking or derisive or insulting, but I think it's. That's why I like this quote, you know? And it's to challenge your way of thought about this as well. I want to leave you in, you know, the general. You not.

1:26:48 Kayla: That's like me. What did I do wrong? Chris: Trying to challenge just you? No, just in general. It's a challenging quote is basically what I'm saying. But anyway, so it's from a mother Jones in depth article about life after hate confronting white supremacists online and in the streets may feel personally gratifying and politically urgent. Yet, as liberals in the anti Trump resistance fawn over life after hate, deradicalization activists argue that much of what the left thinks it knows about shutting down racist extremists is misplaced when it comes to changing individuals. Denunciation may counteract rather than hasten de radicalization. If that seems like surrender, consider that some researchers who study hate groups think we should view violent extremism not only as a problem of ideology, but also as a problem of addiction, a craving for group identity, adrenaline, and the psychological kick of hatred.

1:27:43 Chris: As with substance addiction, there may be no silver bullet for curing extremism, only a lifelong battle to leave such impulses behind. As Peter Simmy, a sociologist at Chapman University in California, puts it, you probably don't ever fully move on from violent extremism. The uncomfortable truth is that the best way to reform racist thugs may be to offer them precisely what they aren't willing to offer others, and precisely what many people in this polarized political moment feel they least deserve. Empathy, end quote. Kayla: That is challenging. Chris: It's very challenging. Yeah. Interestingly. Kayla: Yeah, I don't have a good follow.

1:28:23 Chris: Up to that end scene. No. But interestingly, another article I read had some. I don't know if it's similar thoughts, but related thoughts. But basically what it said was, if you think that if you think of an extremist person, some. Somebody that's. That's into, like, a white supremacist group, you think that, okay, well, usually they're. They're gonna be racist, and then their racism is gonna drive them to these groups, and then that's gonna, you know, further extremify them and whatnot. But actually, what you end up finding out, and it seems like maybe people like Matt Hale are an exception to this since he was a racist from childhood. But what a lot of these. A lot of these people that join these groups actually don't join them because they're racist.

1:29:08 Chris: They join these groups because these groups are good at targeting people on the margins of society and people that are lacking direction and lack economic opportunity and lack all these things. And that's not to, like, excuse any of this stuff, but these groups are good at finding people who have an axe to grind or feel like they've been, you know, treated unfairly or whatever, and then they recruit them in, give them a sense of community and identity, and, you know, a lot of, like, the way cults work. Right. And they bring them in, and it's only then that they say, oh, yeah, well, now that I have all these things that I've been lacking also. I guess they're probably right about all this racist stuff, too.

1:29:52 Kayla: Right. So it's really people, if they're, you know, brought up here, like, there's a bedrock for that. Like, we have to combat just racism in society in general. Like, a lot of us are brought up in, I don't want to say completely white supremacist situations or systems, but we are brought up in the United States of America, and there are some issues, and it seems like that's a really, like, the bedrock is there for once you get sucked into a group like this, it's not the first time you've probably heard some of this stuff, right? Chris: Yeah. So, so it's, these are all just, I guess, things to think about when you think about, you know, what's the best way to combat the problem, what's the best way to cure the disease? And it's probably takes, you know, multiple forms, but one of those forms is, unfortunately, in a weird sense, empathy for people that we really don't want to have empathy for.

1:30:45 Kayla: Right. Chris: But anyway, remember, donate to lifeafterhate.org. It's a good one to donate to. And, okay, that is the last bit about racism in the episode today. I promise. For realsies. Kayla: Thank God. Chris: On to the next story. So this story happened across just a week and a half ago, and it made international news. So please forgive me if you've already heard this one, but on Monday, July 29, in the span of only 12 hours, the country of Ethiopia planted is what is believed to be a world record 353 million trees. Kayla: Jeez. Chris: In 12 hours, how?

1:31:25 Kayla: How did they do that? Chris: Well, according to CNN, quote, the burst of tree planting was part of a wider reforestation campaign named Green Legacy, spearheaded by the country's prime minister, Abiy Ahmed. Millions of Ethiopians across the country were invited to take part in the challenge, and within the first 6 hours, Ahmed tweeted that around 150 million trees had been planted. Kayla: Jeez. Chris: End quote. With the remaining 6 hours, they beat that goal and then some by planting a total of 353 million trees. Kayla: That's amazing. Chris: Does that sound like a lot? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Yeah. Well, their goal for this rainy season is to plant 4 billion trees. Kayla: All right. I believe in them. Chris: Billion. Kayla: I believe in it. Chris: Trees. If you asked me earlier, like, before I read this, how many trees there were, like, in the world, I'm not even sure I would have said 1 billion, let alone four, let alone just in Ethiopia. So that's crazy. At least to me, yeah.

1:32:18 Kayla: I mean that's obviously a lot of trees. Chris: That's an absurd number of trees. Kayla: Huge amount of trees. Chris: And this is part of a larger pan african initiative of more than 20 countries to environmentally restore over 100 million land called the African Forest Landscape Restoration Initiative. Kayla: That's amazing. Chris: Combine this with the recent study conducted at Swiss University ETH Zuriche and published in Scientific American, among other places, about how planting a fuckton of trees could go a long way to help with the climate crisis and it starts to feel pretty damn positive. Ethiopia as a country is very vulnerable to climate change based on its latitude and geography. So they are certainly motivated to do something like this, but it affects all of us. So speaking on behalf of both cultur just weird and America, thank you for your creativity.

1:33:02 Kayla: Ethiopia, that's a really cool story. I'm very heartwarmed to hear that. Chris: Next up I'd like to tell you just briefly about a man by the name of Doctor Carl Jun. I'm a little biased here because Doctor June is a professor at my alma mater, Upenn School of medicine, but what made me notice him was he was on this past year's time 100 most influential people list. And the person that wrote the blurb for Doctor June's entry on the list was a twelve year old girl named Emily Whitehead. Doctor June's revolutionary new cancer treatment saved Emily's life. And now Emily is paying forward Doctor June's creativity by founding the nonprofit Emily Whitehead foundation, which aims to raise awareness and funding for childhood cancer treatments. Kayla: Twelve?

1:33:43 Chris: Yep, she's twelve. Kayla: I'm 31. Chris: Founder of a nonprofit Cancer foundation. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Doctor June, for his part, is receiving the Harrington Prize for Innovation for his pioneering work developing CAR T cell therapy for the treatment of cancer and its clinical use, which I couldnt confirm, but it seems like thats probably what was used on Emily. I didnt heavily research the science behind therapy because its pretty technical. My understanding is that it involves manipulating chemical receptors on immune cells, but I did read that it has the potential to save thousands of lives over the next few years in lymphoma treatments alone. Kayla: Damn. Chris: And listen to this headline from one of the articles I readdeze. Doctor Carl Jun weaves together HIV and cancer research to advance cures for both.

1:34:28 Kayla: Well that is a saint. Chris: That's a dope headline. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: There's an online hematology and oncology newsletter that had this to say about Doctor June's efforts, from a sketch on a pad of paper to one of the most robust programs in the country with multiple manufacturing areas and associated labs. Siegel and June worked in tandem, while others followed their own passions to become part of the team. I wanted to share that quote because it has three really great and instructive creative paradigms. The back of the napkin sketch, which is like 99% of how I start all of my game design work, and also collaboration with a team to follow a common vision, which is the only way you can create something that huge. Not saying there aren't individual creators, but when you're doing something like research, cancer research, it's collaborative. It's collaborative.

1:35:14 Chris: And finally being able to translate your passion for something into real, tangible results. So it has like all three of those elements. That's why I really like that quote. Finally, here's another quote from that newsletter about Doctor June and the Innovation Award. Doctor June's extraordinary vision and dedication have helped to make the promise of cell engineering a therapeutic reality while fundamentally changing the way we treat patients with cancer, Kieran Marr, MD, MBA, professor of medicine and oncology at Johns Hopkins and president of the ASCI, said in a press release. Wow, that was a mouthful. Kayla: Damn. Chris: In this exciting and evolving field built on many brilliant discoveries, his work on immune cell regulation and development of robust t cell culture systems make him an outstanding choice for this award.

1:36:00 Kayla: I agree. Chris: Thank you doctor June for your creativity. And thank you Emily, for transforming your blessing into help for other kids who need help like you did. Kayla: That's really cool. Chris: Here's another story that happened in July that you may have seen. Hopefully you haven't because then you'll be surprised. But question, have you been worried about microplastics in the water lately? Kayla: Not lately, but just all the time, right? Chris: Well, yeah, but I mean, like in the last like year or two, it's kind of come to the forefront. For sure. Yeah, it certainly seems to be in the news a lot, and it's a worrisome thing. And while I haven't done anything about it yet, Fion Ferreira, an 18 year old from West Cork, Ireland, has taken action. Mister Ferrara in July won the Google Science Fair prize, amounting to $50,000, which is lulz is over twice what Doctor June won for his t cell research debt, Google money.

1:36:53 Kayla: Wow. Chris: But he won $50,000 for a novel process for removing microplastics from water. Basically, the process involves making a ferrofluid that will bond with microplastics. Kayla: Oh, that's so smart. Chris: Can you tell our listeners what a ferrofluid is? Kayla: Magnetic fluid. Chris: Yeah, it's so, it's like that's it's like the. You ever see the like black liquid if you put a magnet to it and sucks up to the mag? Yeah, it's that stuff. But he made one that bonds with the microplastics. And because it's a fluid, it can just go right in the water. And then once the ferrofood bonds with the plastics, he extracts it from the water using a magnet. Pretty interesting, right? Kayla: That's amazing. And that's such a, like, simple. I mean, it's not a simple idea, but like. Chris: But it's like once behind it is. Yeah, exactly. Once you hear it, you're like, oh, right, yeah. According to Forbes, this process is 87% effective at removing microplastics from water. Wow. Mister Ferreira has some more confirmation to do with the methodology. And then his intent is to bring it to a mass scale and clean up after our shitty plastic trash. At the end of the Forbes article, they just casually mention the. At 18, Ferreira has an impressive array of accomplishments. He is the curator at the skull planetarium. S c h u l l. Shull.

1:38:06 Kayla: I guess I was hoping it was. Chris: I'm just gonna say it is shul, so don't worry. He is the curator at the shull planetarium. He speaks three languages fluently. He's won twelve previous science fair competitions. He plays the trumpet in an orchestra, and has a minor planet named after him by MIt. Kayla: Wait, what? How do I get that? Chris: I tell you what though. Kids these days with their damn cellphones and their TikTok are just ruining the world. Kayla: TikTok is saving the world by cleaning. Chris: It up of microplastics and starting cancer research foundations. Damn kids. For real though, keep crushing it kids. And thank you for your creativity, Mister Ferreira. Kayla: The youth is going to save us all. Chris: My final story on creativity is one that is somewhat near and dear to me for several reasons. One is that it involves the gaming industry, of which I am a proud part. Another is that it involves the processing of fear and despair around death, which to me, anything that helps process that is one of the greatest gifts. And finally, it is just one of my favorite and purest examples of creativity. Allow me to tell you about the Green family. Ryan and Amy Green and the developers at numinous games created a video game to share with the world a piece of their lives sourcing from Wikipedia. Quote, their third child. And this is Ryan and Amy Green. Their third child, Joel, was diagnosed with an atypical territory rhabdoid tumor at twelve months of age around November 2010.

1:39:30 Chris: The doctors had only given the child about four months to live. But despite developing seven additional tumors, Joel continued to live. Joel's condition left him mentally underdeveloped, being unable to speak even by age two, and he required additional parental care and supervision, alongside numerous visits to doctors and hospitals for palliative care and chemotherapy treatment. End quote. During this time, Ryan, who was already a video game dev and who was dealing with a situation fraught with such intense and overwhelming emotion, decided to make a game to share this experience with others. The story goes that one night he was trying to comfort Joel, which in some cases was almost an impossible task. And in his attempts to get Joel to stop crying, he saw it as a game mechanic.

1:40:14 Chris: And that's when inspiration struck that he should make a game to document his and his family's experience. So he decided to create the now acclaimed that dragon cancer. There's a whole documentary about the making of the game called thank you for playing, and I highly recommend it. Just make sure you bring a box of tissues. But I really like this quote that Ryan Green says during the film about why he made the game. This is what creative people have always done when faced with the insurmountable create. End quote. The whole documentary does an amazing job of both following the family's journey with Joel and with making their game, and also giving us some glimpses of what it all means for them. Chris: For them, among other things, the ability to tell this story in such an interesting and creative and interactive way allows them to give meaning to the meaningless, make sense of the senseless, and share their grief with others. Even thousands of strangers express their spirituality and in one particularly powerful scene, allows them to make sure that Joel won't, quote be forgotten. During the development of the game, Joel was continuing to undergo treatment for his cancer, but unfortunately his condition worsened. Finally, following the advice of the hospice, the family decided to take him off his feeding tube, and he died on March 13, 2014, at the age of five. That Dragon Cancer was worldwide released in January of 2016, two years later, here are some reviews compiled on the game's Wikipedia page.

1:41:39 Chris: Quote that Dragon Cancer was highly praised by reviewers on its release, with many favorably commenting on the overwhelming emotional difficulty presented that forces the player to experience and understand what the Greens had gone through with Joel. Sam Makovich of Ars Technica noted that while other games have tried to elicit similar emotions from its players, that Dragon Cancer was unique in its approach for being, quote, so Frankenhein, so nakedly autobiographical and so imbued with its creators spiritual identities. End quote. Cassandra Ka for Arsecnica believed that while some of the vignettes were not as powerful as the others, that dragon Cancer made effective use of the video game medium as by forcing the players to interact instead of remaining an observer, the game compels us to shoulder some of the creators grief and to embrace the legacy of Joel's short life.

1:42:32 Chris: Lucy Obrien for IGN summarized her review of the game as imperfect but unforgettable. I've played the game not all the way through, but I have played it. And the most powerful moment of the documentary to me comes about midway through when Mister Green takes his game to demo at PaX. And for our non gamer listeners, PAX is one of the industry's biggest conferences. The doc does a good job of setting up the scene by showing the usual video game tropes of killing zombies and aliens and whatnot. And it shows Mister Green's oh, this one's gonna be tough. And it shows Mister Green standing in a small booth in the corner trying to get folks to play a game about cancer. Chris: At first he doesn't have much luck, of course, but then people start getting curious and start sitting down to play his demo and you can see them just be transported and transformed. Suddenly they're sucked into the emotion of the thing they're playing. Some cry while they are playing, some cry after they get up. Pretty much everyone gives Mister Green a hug and some append that hug with a simple, breathy thank you. And it's a wide variety of people too. Gamer bros, gamer girls, different sizes and colors of people that sit down to play a game about profound loss. And they experience a depth of emotion they probably never thought that they would at a place like Pax. And they connect with Mister Green and you can see it in their eyes.

1:43:49 Chris: And this act of creativity on the part of Joel's parents gives his short life such beautiful meaning. His experience, as horrible as it was transformed into art that is healing to the soul of others who touch it. Almost there. Almost there. And I'll add that for me, as a gamer and a game dev, part of what I love about this game is that it truly pushes the boundaries of what the medium can be in a way that few games have. Because of this game, I now know that it's possible to make an interactive story game about a topic like cancer. It's possible to connect with others via loss and despair, and it's possible to transform grief and pain into beauty. Thank you Ryan and Amy Green, for your creativity. And those are my stories.

1:44:35 Kayla: Thank you, Chris Carlson, for making me cry on my own podcast. Chris: Now I feel like I've done an episode about creativity. Kayla: No, give me a second. Hold on. That's just. Yeah, thank you for telling that story. Chris: Before we sign off today, instead of asking you guys to, like, share, subscribe, rate, yada. Instead, I'm going to make an offer theme today's topic. If you have something creative that you're doing, please tell us about it and we'll mention you on the show. Email us@coulterjustweirdmail.com or at us on Twitter alterjustweirdenhe. There's a catch, though. You have to tell us about a group that you've heard of, interacted with, or is local in your hometown. That could be a cult or just.

1:45:19 Kayla: Weird that hopefully isn't a white supremacist terror cell. Chris: Yeah, ideally not that, but yes. If you have a story about a cult, please send it our way and we'll mention it on the show. And if you have something you're working on, mention that too and we'll talk about it. Anything you have to add? Kayla: No. I didn't know I was supposed to interact. Chris: That's literally all I have left. And the screen. The next thing I say is outro, actually. Kayla: Yeah, no question. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So you know how we usually on our instagram, you know? Chris: Oh, yeah, I thought about that too. Kayla: What are we putting there this week?

1:46:01 Chris: I don't like, I don't even know. Kayla: I think we're gonna be putting white supremacist symbols out into the world. Chris: No, I don't even like. As haha. As the logo is, I don't even want to post that. No, fuck that. So instead, what I'll probably do is post some stuff from the stories at the end. The real creativity. Kayla: And cute kittens and dogs. Chris: And probably a cute kitten and dog. Yeah. Kayla: Okay, good. That's what I need now. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Oh, I did mean to say, like, in halfway through this episode, I took, like half of a weed gummy just to, like, get a little mellow going. And I never got a. Any sort of mellow. Chris: You harshed my mellow. Or would you have been even harsher if you didn't do that?

1:46:41 Kayla: I don't know, maybe it helped. But damn, that powered through. Chris: Sorry about having an episode about racism and cancer, you guys. Kayla: You know what? It's 2019. Everything sucks anyway. It's. It's. Chris: And like, it wasn't about cancer, though. It was about the game. Kayla: No, the game is amazing. And I think there's. I think. I think there's also a reply all episode about it. That was amazing. That's where I first heard of that dragon cancer. Chris: Yeah, there's a 99 PI episode about it, too. It got pretty famous. Kayla: Yeah, I guess I just want to say these groups are still around. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And it's important for people that have our privilege to confront it and look at it and recognize it and not hide from it and nothing turn away from it because it's scary and awful and gross and bad. Like, we kind of have to look.

1:47:37 Chris: At these things we do and on the other side, go create something. Kayla: Go make a thing. Which actually kind of sets up for my topic next time, which has to do with creativity and community and nice things. There's also some maybe not. Chris: Oh, man. Thank God. Kayla: There's some not as nice things, for sure. But when I started doing this is a little teaser. When I started doing my research for it, I fully intended to go into it being like, I don't know, this is pretty fucked up. And very quickly got to a place of, like, there's a lot of really nice stuff here, so it's kind of the opposite.

1:48:20 Chris: That's an interesting teaser. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Stick around, guys. Chris: My next episode is not as horrific as this one, but it is like a. It's a real mind fuck, so it's, like, bad in a different way. Okay, so, Hey, hey, stick with us. Kayla: Hey, just at least stick around for. Chris: The kitten and dog on instagram if it's too horrible. I'll try to throw in some more positive news at the end. Oh, geeze. All right, well, is this it? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Thank you for taking that dip in the abyss with me. Kayla: Thank you for suffering the brunt. Chris: Yeah. And thank you for listening to the nice stories at the end.

1:49:01 Kayla: Is it me? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: No, you're welcome. Chris: Yeah, I be captive audience, planting trees, curing cancer. Some good stuff happening. Kayla: There's some good stuff happening. It's nice to be reminded even in 2019. Even in 2019. Chris: All right, this has been. Oh, wait, do I say my name first? Kayla: Say your name first. Chris: Nobody fucked this up. Kayla: That's fine. Chris: All right. This is Chris. Kayla: Sad. This is Kayla. Chris: And this has been cult or just weird?