0:26 Chris: Are we recording? Kayla: We're recording. Recording. And I don't know. Should I say upfront that the episode that we're about to do, we're gonna be kind of jumping around through time and space? Chris: What? Kayla: So we're gonna go ahead and record the intro, and then you and I are going to go out into the field. Chris: Oh, into, like, into space? Cause you said jumping around time and space, like in a space. Kayla: Not outer space, just three dimensional space. Physical space. Chris: Meat space. Kayla: Meat space. Yeah, that is the sex version of MySpace that's always on, like, the side crawls of porn. Chris: Yeah. Meat space. Hot.

1:07 Kayla: And this is not meat space. This is Kayla. Chris: Oh, and Chris. And this is cult or just meat space. Kayla: Oh, God. Chris: Just weird. Sorry. Kayla: Please don't say that ever again. Yeah, so this is my episode. We are. We're gonna talk a little bit, go out into the field, then come back and finish the talk. So should I just jump in? Do you have any business? Chris: I'm just. No, go ahead. Because I don't know what you're talking about. Kayla: I can just start reading my script. Chris: Please. Kayla: In 1969, Jim Baker, then known as Father Yod, opened the source restaurant on LA's Sunset Strip. The source served organic vegetarian food and attracted enough celebrity clients to open two more locations and even make an appearance in the movie Annie hall. At its peak, the restaurant took in $10,000 a day, allowing father Yod to support a commune of young people living together in a mansion in the Hollywood hills. Calling themselves the source family, they were secretive about their beliefs, but generally adopted healthy living lifestyles, natural health, organic vegetarian diets, communal living, and just had these general utopian ideals. They wore white robes, had weird marriage arrangements, and are considered a cult by enough of mainstream society that they were parodied in an episode of documentary now poking fun at the documentary Wild country.

2:31 Chris: Wait, this wasn't. Sorry. So they're not part of the Rajneesh? Kayla: No, but do you remember. Spoiler alert for documentary now. But do you remember when they were talking about the Owen Wilson character and his background? Yeah, that was a parody of father Yadda's background. Chris: Was like a. Like a jamba juice. Whatever. Healthy. Got it. Kayla: Okay, but we're not talking about them today. Chris: Oh, well, but we just did. Kayla: We did. But this podcast isn't about them. Chris: Okay. Kayla: In 1973, a group calling itself the Light Brigade opened a restaurant called the Yellow Deli in Chattanooga. Like the source restaurant, the yellow deli adopted a very flower child hippy dippy aesthetic. And while they don't focus on vegetarian and organic food. They definitely made it clear that they were here to serve a hip, alternative crowd wanting to order sandwiches named after Beatles songs. The light Brigade eventually evolved into the christian group known as the twelve Tribes, eventually opening over 15 restaurants across the world. Wait, let me keep going.

3:31 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Because of their fundamentalist, segregationist, homophobic, misogynistic, and child abusive beliefs, the restaurant had these beliefs. The 12th tribes is widely regarded by mainstream society as a cult. But we're not talking about them today either. Chris: Why not? Can we, though? Can we. Can we. Can we put them on the list? What? Kayla: You're teasing me. Chris: This is cult tease. I have blue cult balls. Kayla: Sorry. The reason why we're not talking about these two groups is because by and large, they're known cults. Source restaurant is no longer operational, and that cult generally disbanded after the death of father Yod. I want to say he was like, hang gliding in Hawaii, but I could be making that.

4:11 Chris: Oh, God. It's a good way to go. Kayla: They move to Hawaii eventually. And the twelve tribes generates a lot of press with their general cultishness. Like the child. They have children. They've violated child labor laws. They're kind of abusive. They're very. Men are better than women. They're very, like, we should have segregation because multiculturalism leads to problems. They're very scary. Chris: Yeah. So, I mean, I was wondering that actually, when you said that, I was like. Or when you were describing them. I'm like, should we be doing these guys? They're cults for sure. Kayla: So instead, today I want to talk about a group that's probably less known than the source family, probably less known than the yellow deli. At least it's less known to me. And there are far fewer movie appearances and articles than the other two.

4:56 Chris: Okay. And hopefully, until now, they hit the podcast circuit with us. Kayla: Hopefully by the end of this, we can figure out why the fuck there are multiple restaurants out there in the world owned and operated by cult or cult adjacent groups. Cause that's really weird to me. Chris: Yeah. The fact that we're, like, on our third one and you've been talking for five minutes is really creepy. Kayla: Today I want to talk about a restaurant called Loving Hut. Have you ever heard of loving hut? Chris: No, I still. I'm just. I can't believe we're talking about a restaurant on this show. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Called Lovinghut. Good. And you've never heard of loving hut? Chris: No. Kayla: Okay, then I'll talk about loving hut, and then you and I are gonna go have lunch at loving hut?

5:38 Chris: Yes. Kayla: And we'll record a little bit of it for our listeners. We'll try not to bore you too much. We'll try not to have a lot of, like, mouth sounds of chewing, but just know. Chris: Well, I mean, again, we're part ASMR on this show for when we do the criteria and we, you know, we crinkle the paper, so I don't know. Kayla: So we'll have it as an option. Chris: Yeah, we'll do. We should, like, supplemental content, like us chewing our food. Kayla: Yeah. Oh, there's this, like, new trend I'm seeing on the social media of people taking, like, iconic scenes from, like, social media or, like, other, like, YouTube videos and stuff and, like, redubbing all of the audio into whispers. So it'll be like, fights of, like, real housewives in Beverly Hills, but they'll be whispering at each other like this to make it into, like, ASMR is so funny.

6:24 Chris: That sounds fucking amazing. Kayla: But it's not a cult or just weird. It's cool. Loving hut is one of those two things. We're gonna figure it out. Chris: Okay, let me. You're not gonna, like, accidentally join a cult again, are you? Kayla: I probably will. Okay, let me just describe the restaurant for you, and then we can go from there. Loving Hut is a vegan restaurant chain founded by a vietnamese businesswoman named Ching Hai. There are over 140 locations across Asia, Europe, whoa. North and South America, Africa, and Australia. Chris: What? Kayla: In the US? Loving Hut has restaurants in 15 states. Each location creates its own unique menu of vegan cuisine and ranges from fast food style to full service style restaurants.

7:07 Chris: So we're going because it's vegan? That's the real impetus here. Kayla: Yeah, vegan is definitely a cult. From the Loving Hut website. Loving Hut was created with a vision that all beings could live in peace, love and harmony with each other and the planet. Loving hut chain restaurants are newly opening around the world. It is an invitation to gourmet cuisine made with wholesome vegan ingredients, offering an accessible starting point for those making the noble transition to a plant based diet. Chris: Are you trying to convert me? Kayla: Yes, absolutely. I'm not a vegan. Chris: Well, okay, fair. Kayla: Loving hut is currently the fastest growing international vegan fast food chain in the world, with branches in milpitas. Really? According to their website, Milpitas Palo Alto in San Francisco. Internationally, branches are currently open in Formosa, Taiwan, Aulaq, Vietnam, Singapore, Indonesia, Tokyo, and Hong Kong. More branches will be opening in various locations around the world in the coming months. Now that still sounds relatively normal, right? Like, no more weird or cultish than any other vegan restaurant in, like, Santa Monica or Portland or Boston or whatever.

8:07 Chris: Right? I was gonna say, yeah, there's plenty of those around here. Kayla: So. Okay, let's get into it, and then we'll go to the restaurant. I had no idea loving Hut would ever be something we would cover on this podcast until I received a text from our wonderful friend Paul that was just a link to the Google search. Is loving hut a cult? I immediately responded in all caps, if loving hut is a cult, I will kill myself. Chris: Okay, so. So there's some incentive here. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Dear listeners, as you'll remember from our Irvine episode, I grew up in Orange county, and lovinghut operates not one, not two, but three restaurants in the Orange county area, surprisingly none of which are in Irvine. And for quite a while, it was.

8:50 Chris: It's like turf, you know? It's like cult turf. You can't. Kayla: Yeah, for a little while, it was kind of like the only. One of the only vegan restaurants you could get to. Like, I've been there, my sister's been there. I'm sure probably nearly every vegetarian in the OC area has been to lovinghut at one point or another. And apparently it might be a cult. Not wanting to believe it, I started doing some digging, and unfortunately, if you Google is loving how to cult, the first thing you get back is a link to a vice article titled visiting the vegan restaurant chain owned by a cult now. Chris: Well, that pretty much wraps it up then, I guess. Kayla: Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Vice may be ready to call loving how to cult, but we still need to go through all the information and decide for ourselves. Chris: Right? Right, of course. But just to be clear, I trust vice implicitly. I would trust them with my baby.

9:36 Kayla: I'll be honest, I don't have high hopes for this one. I'm gonna go ahead and read for you the rest of loving hutts about section on their website, and I would like you to stop me when I hit a cult red flag for you. Stop me when it's soundcloud. Chris: Other than the vice article. Kayla: Yes. Like when the actual words on their website. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Our vision loving hutt is a beacon of light for an alternative way of living to achieve world war, world peace already. Really? Chris: Yeah. Beacon of light for alternative lifestyle. Kayla: That just sounds like hippies. Vegan. Chris: Fine. Yellow flag. Kayla: Yeah. While striving to make our vision a reality, we continually focus on improving our core values. Our core values? Healthy, serve, 100% delicious plant based meals, using only natural and healthy ingredients. Compassion. Honor all lives to live in peace and harmony together. Green. Respect and protect Mother Earth through sustainable practices, including by being vegan. Treat each customer as a vip, a friend and a partner. Provide joyful experiences for customers, employees, friends, and families. Make loving hut a destination choice for all. And then it moves on into a faq, a frequently asked questions section.

10:44 Chris: Yeah, the core values are. I mean, that's pretty innocuous, right? That's okay. That's like a nice company. Blizzard had core values, and the ones that you just told me weren't that weird. I mean, hippie, but not weird. Kayla: Just wait. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Why are the menus different at every loving hut? Each city is unique, and thus we believe in giving our loving hut chefs the freedom to create great local dishes and entrees. We want to bring out the best of all cultures and show that vegan dishes are not only healthy, but great tasting, too. Sounds nice. Question. What are the hours? Why wait? Oh, yeah, there's a lot of typos here. So the question was, what are the hours different at each loving hut? Obviously, they mean why? Each loving hut has a unique situations and customer traffic times, so they have the freedom to make hours that works best for them and their community. Why are there loving huts? That is fast food or full service dining? There are locations that serve fast food, casual counter service, or full service dining.

11:37 Kayla: We give the freedom to the operators to choose the best service that fits their team. Environment, restaurant, and community. Chris: This all sounds pretty good so far. Kayla: Sounds great, right? Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Like, doesn't sound culty. It's like, yeah, do whatever you want. Chris: Yeah, no, it sounds like that's how I would want to run a company. Like, hey, you know, like, do the thing that works best for you and your team and your community. Like, you know, I trust you to blah, blah. Yeah. Kayla: How is your food so affordable? The vegan diet is great for environment, health, and shows compassion for all lives. Unfortunately, healthy choices by itself is not good enough. We recognize that the food must also be affordable for it to be everyone's food choice. Chris: Okay. Okay, that's good, too. Kayla: Doesn't really answer the how. Just kind of is a why. Doesn't really say how the food is affordable.

12:17 Chris: Okay. Kayla: Here'S the next one. How is Supreme Master Qinghai involved? Chris: Supreme, can I put the red flag up now? Kayla: Yeah. Supreme Master Ching Hai is the innovator for loving hut vegan concept. She wants to help the world with a more compassionate and noble way of living by providing easy access to great vegan food all over the world. So the next thing I wrote was, so if you haven't stopped me by now, what the fuck is wrong with you? If you have stopped me by now, what the fuck? Chris: So my first question is, when we intro the show from now on, can I intro it as supreme master? Kayla: Chris, please do. Chris: Okay, good. Second question. Yeah. Is very similar to your question. That is, what the fuck?

13:02 Kayla: Yeah. So we're gonna go to the restaurant now, but when we come back, we're gonna learn all about supreme. Chris: Is it safe to eat there? Am I gonna eat, like, some mind control spores? Kayla: You're fine. You're fine. Chris: Okay. I'll take your word for it. Kayla: You ready? Chris: No, let's go. Let's do it. Kayla: We are about to sit down now, and we don't know what to expect. We are open minded and we will see how it goes. It's really nice to be able to order literally anything off the menu.

13:54 Chris: Right? Kayla: Oh, man. Chris: You as a vegetarian? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: This dish looks exactly like duck. Kayla: Do you want to get it? Chris: I was thinking maybe, like Wonton. Yeah, definitely wontons. Definitely crispy rolls and maybe Cele. Kayla: Oh, yeah, that sounds good. Chris: I'll get the fabulous mongolian because it looks like it's just a pile of meat, but there's obviously. Kayla: Hell, yeah. Do you want jackfruit salad or golden salad? Chris: Jackfruit. Kayla: Is it okay if I take a picture of you? Sure. I may veto, but you get a smile. Chris: Do you describe to me what you're saying.

14:39 Kayla: I don't know. Chris: None of this is contract, by the way. Kayla: No. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: I kind of feel. Chris: At peace. Kayla: Discomfort at the thought of describing but what's currently playing on television. We'll talk about. I can fill you in. Chris: Great. Kayla: Yeah. Okay, so these are the Wontons. Chris: They look pretty good. Do you know what this is gonna be? Oh, jeez. That is hot as hell. Dipping the wonton. Sweet and sour. Hot wonton. Hot, hot wonton. So this is the jackfruit salad.

15:37 Kayla: Jackfruit salad. Chris: That must be the Mongolian. Kayla: This is your mongolian filet. Yeah, we got. We got too much food. Chris: We got too much food for sure. Kayla: Crispy chopping. Chris: Yeah. Wise decision. Kayla: I know. It's like soybean and you got soybean, too. Chris: Yeah. How is it? Kayla: Really good. Chris: The act of eating, it's very ritualistic ritual in which we all participate. Kayla: Someone's watching television. Chris: Your big beef is good. Yeah. Kayla: Yeah, they know what they're doing. Chris: Damn. So I guess we want to be fair and balanced. We should also, like, take a trip to, like, a factory farm or something.

16:24 Kayla: Oh, can't. Chris: I'll do it. Kayla: What was your favorite thing? Chris: Definitely. Kayla: Can we get a cheesecake to take home? Chris: Absolutely. Kayla: I just want to say that I'm coming. Chris: I mean, of the places where we would go to a vegan place. Kayla: I'm coming back. Chris: It's definitely this one. Kayla: It's delicious. Like, I might eat this in the car on the way home. It's so good. Chris: Yeah. I might just smear it all over my body. Kayla: Yeah. Spade in it, and pretty darn good price. 517 for two appetizers, a salad that we shared in two entrees, and a piece of cheesecake.

17:13 Chris: All right, let's do this. Kayla: Let's get out of here. Where are the keys? You have the keys? Chris: Yeah, I have the keys. Kayla: All right. Wait, hold on. Chris: Somewhere. Kayla: Wait, wait. I want to take a picture of something. Oh, you did get a card. Where'd you get this from? Chris: Right up at the counter for a card. And they were like, oh, here you go. Here's the menu. I'm like, but I'll take this.

17:56 Kayla: Didn't try to promote it. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So the card that Christopher received. Chris: Oh, are we recording already? Kayla: We're still recording. Chris: Oh, we're just still recording. Kayla: Is for the television station, which is called supreme master television. And it's very interesting to me that you asked. You specifically asked for a card. Well, so what I did try to push this one. They. They didn't even, like, hand it to you. Right? There's a car behind you. Chris: I am. So I always either get a. This is like a, I don't know, weird habit collection thingy that I do. Got it from a friend of mine in college. But I always ask for a business card or a matchbox or something just to, like, put in my collection of restaurants I've been to. So that's what I asked for this time. And. Yeah. And they gave me a menu, but there were these supremaster.com tv business cards that were sitting right there, and they didn't offer it to me.

18:51 Kayla: Interesting. Chris: I took one nonetheless. So here we are. Kayla: So let's just do a quick debrief of what we just experienced. Chris: Delicious non meat. Kayla: Absolutely delicious. We pulled up. It was the loving hut that went to. The loving hut that went to is kind of in, like, a. Like a strip mall. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: On, like, a major street in. In the city of Orange. And were immediately seated. There were definitely people. There were other people in there? Chris: Not many, though. Kayla: Not many. Chris: But small. Kayla: We're also at a weird reading at like, 04:00. We walked in at like, 04:00. Chris: Oh, I suppose you're right. Think about that. Kayla: So the fact that there were my grandparents, the fact that there were, like, people coming in and out at 04:00, like that. Chris: Yeah.

19:32 Kayla: Minimal decoration. There was, you know, they had images of the food that they served. They had, like, their big loving hut logo one wall, but on each. Chris: You put that on Instagram, too. Kayla: On each wall, there were photos of famous people that are vegan. I mean, I don't remember what they were. There was, like, Alicia Silverstone, Ellen DeGeneres, Portia de Rossi, Gandhi, Lao Tzu, Princess Di. Yeah. Princess Diana, Moby. Some athletes that. I don't remember their names. Pythagoras. Just all. I think maybe Shania Twain was there. All different kinds of vegan celebrities. And then the only other thing of real note was there was a television.

20:14 Chris: Yeah. Unfortunately, I was seated to where I was faced away from the television. Kayla: I was facing it. Chris: What did you witness? Kayla: So something that you should know about loving Hut is that in every single one of their locations, they broadcast the 24/7 television channel, Supreme Master Television, which is what the card is from. And there's a website, suprememastertv.com, comma. They have apps. You can watch it on YouTube. You can watch it in podcast form. It's on short wave radio. It's on, like. It's on stations literally all around the world. Like, when were sitting there, they were listing all of the new stations that they have. And it was literally, like, they had Mongolia and, like, hawaii and some place in New Zealand, like, literally everywhere. And I'm trying to remember exactly all the different things that we saw while were there.

21:07 Kayla: There was a section where it was, like, quoting scripture from, like, ten different major world religions that all that they were interpreting were all in support of a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle. Chris: They cover their bases. Kayla: There was. They did the weather all around the world. There was a traditional armenian orchestra. There was a traditional chinese medicine doctor. Justin, I have about a thousand questions. Chris: By the way, are we gonna be doing, like, another recording session back in our studio? Kayla: Absolutely be doing another recording session. This is just to talk about what we just did. Chris: I just want to make sure, because, like, if I. Yeah, because I have so many questions, like, maybe you'll answer them there. But I just didn't. I want to make sure that I wasn't just, like, not asking them. You know what I mean?

21:51 Kayla: Right. Chris: Or asking at the wrong time. Anyway, please continue. Although, do you want me to re. Actually, yeah. Kayla: Read what the card says about the television station. Chris: So on the front it just says supremaster television, supreme mastertv.com. We will, of course, show you a picture of this on Instagram as well. On the back of the card, it says, constructive programming for a peaceful world. Supremaster tV.com live stream 24/7 worldwide in over 22 languages. And then it says, follow us on our socials. And it has Facebook, Insta, and Twitter. Then it also has a QR code that I'm definitely going to scan. Kayla: Oh, absolutely. Chris: And then it has an email us peace at suprememaster tv.com. And, well, excuse me, sorry, there's a contact us email. That's what that is. And there's something called a heart line email, which is heartline at supremaster tv.com.

22:45 Kayla: Where you have to figure out what. Chris: The fuck is a heart line. Kayla: We're gonna have to figure that out. Interesting. Oh, yeah. Something else. When were watching the tv, it was, I think it was mostly in English and it was subtitled in six other languages. And as were about to leave, there was like the channel that was, or the part of the show, the portion of the programming that was doing the weather was also doing news, and it was called noteworthy news. And the reason why I made a weird. Chris: Wait, hold up. Isn't that redundant? Kayla: Yes. The reason why I made a weird face when were eating was because, not to be judgmental, but the news anchors may have been robots. Like, actually may have. I'm not sure they were either robots or they were, like, being lit so heavily that they're just, all of their human features were washed out.

23:35 Chris: Oh, God. Kayla: And they looked like robots. They were like, perfect haired, perfectly symmetrical faces. Perfectly. Chris: Are we gonna be able to find, like, videos or something to like. Kayla: It's on YouTube? Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Absolutely. Absolutely. We will. Chris: So we'll put this on the culture. Just weird, social. Kayla: Oh, you will be able to see all of the tv. You're going to see all the pictures that we took of the menu, of the food that we ate, of the interior of the restaurant. And yeah, when we get back home, we are going to continue learning more about loving hut as a restaurant and about supreme Master Ching Hai herself. Chris: I have so many questions. You should. But I will say me as a Meatosaurus, I really enjoyed their food. It was really good.

24:19 Kayla: It was delicious. Chris: They had really good fake beef in my mongolian beef. Their jackfruit salad was very good. And their fried items were also very good. It was very tasty. Kayla: I would absolutely eat here again. Chris: Oh, yeah. And the waiter was super friendly. Kayla: Oh, they were so nice. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And I don't know if we caught this part inside the restaurant, but the whole time were there, you heard the chopping of fresh vegetables in the kitchen. Like, it was. The food was extremely fresh. Like, you could tell that everything. Like, we got fried wontons and fried egg rolls, and they were like. They had just been made. You could. Chris: Yeah. And you could. They had the babies for the baby blood that they were just extracting the blood from. Kayla: Freshly harvested. Chris: Delicious. Kayla: I think that's called slander.

25:01 Chris: Well, we can cut that part. It's not slander if we explain that is a joke. A joke. False. They did not have any baby blood that we are aware of. Kayla: Anything else you want to say about our experience at loving Hut today? Chris: No. Overall, I had a good meal there. Kayla: Yeah. I am excited for my leftovers later. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: I'm also excited to get home and keep telling you about this place. Chris: Oh, God. I am also excited. Kayla: Strap it. So how was your meal? So now that we are back home in our studio.

25:47 Chris: Okay, well, so that's what I was gonna say, is now everybody knows that our studio is our home. And now the whole illusion is shattered. The whole. We have a big professional recording studio on Sony's campus. Now they know that we're just at home. Kayla: Do you think people record podcasts on the Sony lot? Chris: The big ones do, Kayla. Kayla: They don't. Chris: Well, Roman Mars, who, as you know from our previous episode, is a hero of mine records in beautiful downtown Oakland, California. Kayla: Do you know where my favorite murder recorded up until very recently? One of their apartments. Up until very recently. And they got, like, a studio up until very recently, they were recording in just one of their apartments.

26:34 Chris: Yeah, I know this, but I'm trying to pull the wool over the eyes of our audience. Kayla: Too late. We record in our house. So now that we have fully digested, are you ready to continue our conversation about loving hut? Chris: Yeah. And so far, the digestion's going well. I'll definitely report back on Twitter once I've gotten to the end of the digestion. Kayla: Got it. Chris: And I'll let you guys know. Kayla: I'm sure everyone is excited about that. So, as I mentioned back at lovinghut, we need to talk about Supreme Master Shanghai. Chris: Huh. Kayla: Before we jump into her and her life, I'll quote some of my research. A few places helped me out. There's a great vice article about loving hut by Justin Kaffir. Wikipedia, obviously, was a great jumping off point. Qinghai's own website, and there were various news outlets and subreddits and even a my recipes article. Cause apparently my recipes does journalism.

27:38 Chris: What? Kayla: Yep. Chris: Okay. I had no idea. Kayla: My recipes, cult or just weird? Let's go. Supreme Master Ching Hai is an author, entrepreneur, and teacher of the Quan Yin method of meditation. She has several business ventures, primarily a fashion company and the loving hut restaurant chain. Her business ventures are collectively known as Supreme Master Qinghai International Association. Supreme Master Qinghai. Chris: I'm already boiling with questions. Kayla: Supreme Master Qinghai was born with the name Hu Dang Trin in 1950 in a small village near Hanoi, Vietnam. Her parents were naturopaths, and while she was raised Roman Catholic, she was also taught about Buddhism from her grandmother. She would go to church in the morning and then buddhist temple in the afternoon. And at the same time, she was also very interested in all kinds of philosophy at a very early age. And as a kid, she was reading Lao Tzu and Chang Tzu like she was really in it. And according to her website, her father asked her if she understood these works, and she answered him, if I didn't understand, I wouldn't have any interest in doing this.

28:49 Chris: Ooh, sassy. Kayla: She was very concerned about the well being and suffering of other people and animals. Also, from very early on, when there was a shortage of doctors and nurses in her village, she just decided, okay, I'll volunteer at the hospital. And she helped bathe patients. She emptied bedpans, she ran errands. And according to her, this is when she began to get some nicknames. The two nicknames she was given at this time were living Buddha and laughing saint. And these were given to her by. Chris: Oh, no. I've heard of hugging saint. Kayla: Yeah, the hugging saint is a different woman. Chris: Okay, I thought I heard of it, but never mind. I know there's a laughing saint. Kayla: The hugging saint. Chris: Different thing. Kayla: She was always known to love animals, and as a kid, was often rehabilitating small animals, like squirrels and whatever. And she would also cry at the slaughtering of animals, and therefore has been a vegetarian her entire life, eventually switching over to strict vegans. Veganism?

29:41 Chris: Mm. She probably read Charlotte's web as a kid. Kayla: Why do we do that to kids? Chris: I don't know why. It's like all children's literature seems to be trying to get people to be vegan. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: All it is just anthropomorphizing things that we eventually eat. Kayla: Well, but literally, Charlotte's web is about, like, Wilburn trying to trick the people into not eating him. Chris: I know. Kayla: It's not just like, oh, these are some pigs hanging out. Like, it's literally will be your right. Chris: It's about that. Kayla: If you don't figure out how to be something more than food. Chris: Some pig. Kayla: Some pig. According to Supreme Master Qinghai's website, an astrologer told her family when she was a child that she was, quote, an unusual, very intelligent being with superior character and morals.

30:24 Chris: How old was she? Kayla: I'm just gonna assume somewhere between seven and twelve. Chris: Damn. I like the shot. Chutzpah. How do I. Chutzpah? I like the chutzpah on that kid. Kayla: It was predicted that she would be a renunciate and become enlightened, if not married. Chris: What's a renunciate? Kayla: But if married, she would have a happy relationship and an admirable husband. A renunciate is basically like an ascetic. It's like somebody who's like, I renunciate. I renounce. Chris: I renunciate. Kayla: No, I renunciate. I renounce the trappings of modern society, philosophy and meditate. Chris: Got it. Like Saint Francis or Avatar Aang. Kayla: Yes, exactly. Apparently, this prediction was repeated to her over and over by various spiritualists throughout her life. Later on, when she was a young adult, late teen, I don't know, somewhere around there. Qinghai left home to become a nun, and her mother went to a temple to pray for a catholic nun. I don't know, because a lot of this information is coming straight from the horse's mouth, and it just says, none. And nowhere else could I find, like.

31:29 Chris: Oh, you tried to find that? Didn't say, oh, wow, that's none. Okay. I mean, the reason I ask is just because, like, remember when were in the restaurant and we saw that there was, you know, multiple different religions being cited and quoted? I'm totally getting that from what you're saying, where she was like, laozoo. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And then she was catholic, so we'll. Kayla: Talk about it more. But that's her thing. Like, her thing is, what she's preaching is not a religion. It's a method, it's a philosophy, it's a lifestyle thing. And so she draws from a lot of different spiritualities. So she could have been a catholic nun. She could. Nun could be a bad translation for monk of some kind. I don't quite know. And also, it doesn't really matter because she was just kind of. She kind of believes that, like, all the world religions are basically the same thing, just with different packaging.

32:19 Chris: Right. Kayla: So she left home to become a nun. It was the first time for her leaving home. Her mother was nervous, went to a temple to pray for her. And she was told by the monks there that, quote, the master, she was what? Chris: Again? Seven, eight? Kayla: I mean, she was. She was going by a different name, but this is the name that she goes by now. She wasn't called the master. She was going by Hugh Dengtrana. Still going by her name at this point. Chris: Okay. Kayla: But all of her materials currently refer to her in every iteration as the master. So that's what we're going with. Chris: Got it. So it's like a retroactive title bestowed? Yes. Kayla: Okay, so her mother was told that your kid is a very rare and noble child, one of a billion. She has come to this world on the mission of Quan yin to save sentient beings from misery. Now, I just want you to remember, like, how much pressure you felt when you were a kid to get good grades. Now imagine if you had to save sentient beings from misery.

33:18 Chris: So, I mean, I feel like that's what stand up comedians are pressured to do. Kayla: Yeah, yeah. But I also could have gone either way. She could have either become a cult leader or she could have. Chris: Right? One of the two. This also sounds a lot like Teal's origin story. Kayla: Well, she's not getting sewn into corpses yet. Chris: A lot like Teal's actual real life origin story where she started off as, like, I'm different and special. Kayla: How do you know that's real? Chris: How do I know that what's real? Kayla: That that was actually her experience as a kid? Chris: I don't. I don't. But I'm more willing to believe that she felt like she was a special child. Kayla: Right. Chris: And was told that than I am, that she was sewn into corpses. Kayla: She wasn't sewn into corpses. No one has ever done that or been that. Okay, so she left, gave a nun. She's gonna become saving sentient beings from misery? We don't really know what happened to the nun thing. She beat a nun for a little while, but apparently fairly soon after she left to be a nun, she started working in Germany as a translator for the Red Cross, generally in service of refugees. I don't wanna say. I don't wanna make it sound like I didn't do my research. I mean, like, the. The information here is murky.

34:24 Chris: So it's like she's in Vietnam and. Oh, she pops up in Germany. Kayla: Yeah. Okay, so she's working for the Red Cross. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Her position at the Red Cross put her in direct contact with the world's turmoil and suffering, the result of wars and natural disasters, mostly from the website. Quote, the supreme master Shanghai suffered a great deal. As she sought to alleviate the pain, she saw and realized how impossible it was for one person to stop the suffering of humanity. This drove her more strongly toward enlightenment as she realized that only this could help alleviate mankind's pain. This experience kind of had her doubling down on her spirituality. She meditated harder. She sought teachers out. She read every kind of scripture she could get her hands on, like from the Bible to the Quran to the shit we've never even heard of. And even after all this, she felt stagnated.

35:16 Kayla: She felt like she wasn't actually getting closer to that state of enlightenment that she wanted and that she kind of had been told that she was gonna get to. So the pressure is on to get there. Chris: And let me guess, the only way to get there is to cook delicious fake beef. Kayla: We'll get there. Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: When she was 19, she married a german scientist who supported her beliefs. He also became a vegetarian. He went with her on pilgrimages, just all that kind of stuff. But in two years, the marriage split up so that she could focus on her spirituality. And according to supreme master Ching hai, the german scientists supported her in this as well as they both. Chris: Does he have a name? Is it german scientist?

35:57 Kayla: German scientist. Okay, german scientist. They both knew that this divorce was a necessary step in her path towards enlightenment. Very amicable breakup, it sounds like. Chris: Cool. Kayla: Then she began following another nameless person. She began following a german buddhist monk in the late seventies, but his monastery did not allow women to join. So she was like, fuck that. Which, good for you, girl. She then moved. Chris: Now, she also has something in common with Mary Kay. Kayla: Oh, shit. It's all related. She then moved to India with the intention of studying different religions. So again, she studied Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tzu, again, many others. And this is where she developed the belief that all religions and spiritualities are basically the same, just practiced differently based on the differences of the people who follow that religion. But again, stands to reason she still did not feel enlightened.

36:55 Chris: Damn, girl. Kayla: I know. She's doing so much work, too. Chris: Yeah, I can't tell if she's, like, just being spoiled, like Ariel. I want more. Kayla: Orlando, don't you dare call Ariel spoiled. Chris: She was a tad spoiled. Kayla: She was not spoiled. All of that she had in her grotto, she got herself. No one gave that to her. Chris: Yeah, but she always wanted more. More. Kayla: More spoiled is when somebody else. Chris: Why couldn't she just be under the sea and be happy? Kayla: I'm literally gonna kick your face. Chris: There was a whole song about it. Kayla: So people should just be content with what they have and not strive for anything. Chris: Yeah, maybe. Kayla: Maybe you're not allowed to see the live action remake. I'm not taking you. I'm going by myself.

37:36 Chris: Well, if it's anything like the Lion King, maybe I don't want to. Kayla: You haven't seen the Lion King, so how dare you slander it. Chris: Okay, fine. But I do want to see it. You told me that it was, like, all weird and uncanny valves. Kayla: I didn't see it, either. I just read reviews and took them as the gospel truth. Chris: Well, my parents said that it was good. Kayla: Well, I believe them. Chris: Are we gonna go back to talking about this cult? Kayla: Yeah, I was trying. So she didn't feel enlightened. I wanted to say that. I don't. We were kind of making some jokes. We're not shitting on anyone's, like, spiritual journey. Like, this is hard work, and, like, it's also a very valid quest. Chris: Yeah. And I actually had a second thing that I wanted to say after spoiled. That was the joke part, so I don't want to sound like a dick. My second thing was. Or maybe this was a very difficult journey. And then I. You know, I feel for her. In that case. That's tough to get there.

38:29 Kayla: Well, she got there, clearly. Cause we ate at her restaurant. Yeah, but we'll keep talking about the journey. It doesn't end right. Chris: If the garlic sauce is any indication, she definitely got there. Kayla: Right. So a mythos around Supreme Master Qinghai kind of started developing after this move to India, because there's this story that goes, one day, she went to a bookshop near the Ganges river with the intention of buying a copy of the Bhagavad Gita, which is the quintessential hindu text. The bookshop owner told her that they did not have a copy, but she insisted that they at least look. The bookshop owner scoured the shop as Qinghai insisted they keep looking and keep looking. And eventually, they found a copy hidden away in a corner in a sealed box. By 1982, this story had begun to circulate, leading to rumors that Qinghai had a third eye and extrasensory powers.

39:23 Chris: This is way too cool to have actually happened. I'm sorry. Kayla: Can you imagine? Chris: That's, like, isn't. I mean, that's, like, the plot of shit. What's the Nic cage movie. It's like. It's like a national treasure. Kayla: Keep looking. Chris: Or, like tomb raider or something. Kayla: Well, she has extra sensory powers now. At this time, she wanted to find the perfect method, quote, unquote, to reach enlightenment in a single lifetime. So she was like, okay, I've studied all this shit, and, like, apparently, it seems like if you just study, study, you'll get there eventually. But she's like, I want to find that one method that can get you there in a single lifetime so you don't have to keep striving for enlightenment after every, like, reincarnation. She's like, I want to get it. I want to get this efficient.

40:06 Chris: Efficient. I. Like. I'm a little skeptical of seeking perfection, but I appreciate efficiency. Kayla: Well, during her studies, she learned of a method that, to her, is the perfect method called Quan Yin. We've mentioned it before. According to her website, none of the teachers that she had at the time knew of this method. So, again, she spent some more time traveling and searching, and eventually, she, quote, found a himalayan master who initiated her into the Quan Yin method and gave her the divine transmission that she had sought for so many years. End quote. Chris: You sure she didn't just, like, watch a kung fu movie and then write down what she saw and say that happened to her? Kayla: Yeah, this is. This is basically like a Batman origin story. Or, like.

40:49 Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kayla: Batman did this. Chris: Yeah. Or, like, once. Kayla: Not, again, not to, like, downplay the actual importance and, like, work that goes into this kind of, like, spiritual growth. Chris: No, definitely not. And I'm sure she definitely did a lot of work. It's just some of this stuff is like. Kayla: It's really. Whoa. Chris: You trained on a mountain? Kayla: Yeah. With a himalayan master who gave you a divine transmission. Chris: Right, right. Kayla: Well, anyway, after this happened, she reached full enlightenment, and she stayed in, as you would, and she then stayed in the Himalayas for a while, practicing this Quan yin method. Now, I googled Quan Yin quite a few times, and it's hard to find information about this method without being directed back to one of Supreme Master Qinghai's own websites. From what I could find, the Quan Yin method relates to the bodhisattva known as in. Known in China as Guanyin. A bodhisattva. Do you know Bodhisattva?

41:46 Chris: I was just gonna ask you to explain. I mean, well, I don't like a dick if. I know, I know, but you tell our listeners. Yeah. Kayla: What is it? Tell me. I'm gonna test you. Chris: Tell me what is it testing me? Live on the air? Kayla: I'll cut this out. What is it? Chris: It's. It's a. A reincarnation of Buddha that sort of has their own, like, it's like a. It's like a catholic saint. They have their own sort of abilities and stuff will suck my balls. Kayla: Well, according the definition that I found, a bodhisattva is any person on the path to buddhahood that has not yet attained it. So it's like. So, yes, it is similar to. I'm thinking of something else, but I don't think it's a reincarnation of Buddha. I think it's a person on the way to becoming a Buddha who's just nothing. 100% there yet. Oh, so that's who Guanyin is. Let me read you the Wikipedia passage about Guanyin. I just totally copy and paste it here.

42:40 Chris: That's what we do with Wikipedia. Kayla: Guanyin is the most commonly used translation of the bodhisattva known as avalokitesvara. In english usage, guanyin is the buddhist bodhisattva associated with compassion and venerated chiefly by followers of mahayana buddhist schools as practiced in the sinisphere. Getting technical? Chris: Yeah, I'm barely following this. Kayla: I'll go slow. From the buddhist perspective, the term guanyin encompasses the entire spectrum of mahayana buddhist practices related to avalokitesvara, or guanyin, ranging from the Lotus sutra and extending towards Shingon, as well as tibetan vajrayana. These are just all various belief schools in Buddhism.

43:21 Chris: Are you speaking in tongues? Kayla: This is something that I learned during my research that, like, there are so many different belief schools in, like, buddhist faith and buddhist philosophy. There's like a hundred different ways to practice this right technique, this faith, this method, whatever you want to call it. Chris: Yeah, it's almost like a, it's like when chef John talks about, this is a technique, not a recipe. Boom. It's just like that. Kayla: That's a deep cut. Chris: Yeah, it's good, right? That said, I didn't get anything that you just said. I didn't understand any of that. Kayla: So basically, Guanyin, she's a buddhist bodhisattva, okay? She's associated with compassion, up and coming Buddha, she's associated with compassion, and she is worshipped or revered by followers of multiple different schools of buddhist thoughts.

44:11 Chris: Okay. All right, I dig that. Kayla: The worship of Guanyin, or the belief in Guanyin, also includes localized practices from various other regions. These localizations are found throughout the buddhist world. Guanyin also refers to the bodhisattva as adopted by other eastern religions, such as Taoism, where she is revered as an immortal, as well as chinese folk religions, japanese Shinto, korean blending of Guanyin worship with native beliefs. And in Vietnam, the adoption of Guanyin by Cao deism, which is just another faith. Chris: So this Guan, how do I pronounce it again? I'm sorry? Kayla: Guanyin. Chris: Guanyin. So this Guan yin is. She's big. Kayla: She's big. She's everywhere.

44:52 Chris: Okay. Kayla: In western languages, she was first given the name of, quote, goddess of mercy, or the mercy goddess by jesuit missionaries in China. Okay, the chinese name Guanyin is. Chris: Makes sense. Cause you said compassion, right? Okay. Kayla: The chinese name Guanyin is short for Guan Xi Yin, which means the one who perceives the sounds of the world, which is the coolest thing I've ever heard in my life. Chris: That's such an awesome name. Kayla: And also the one who perceives the. Chris: Sounds of the world and also has nothing to do with compassion and mercy. Kayla: It doesn't. Chris: Oh, I guess if you can perceive. Kayla: That'S an empathetic person, you're tuned in. Listen to everyone. Yeah. Chris: You're like. You have the Superman problem, right? Kayla: What's the Superman problem? I said, right? I don't know what that is. Superman have real good hearing. Please tell me. Superman.

45:35 Chris: Yeah, yeah. Superman has super hearing. He can hear anything, anywhere, respond to crimes. Kayla: No, but then sometimes it's been explored. Chris: In the comic that it's like crushingly depressing because hears everything and can't fix everything. Kayla: Okay. I have a little bit more respect for everyone who wants to, like, depict Superman as, like, a Christ figure. Now, I had no idea that was a thing. Chris: Yeah, dog, like Superman's actually, I used to be, like, Superman's lame character. Kayla: No, Superman's cool. Chris: But there's some very interesting Superman literature out there. Kayla: Well, he is not the one who perceives the sounds of the world. That is Guan Xian or Guanyin. Chris: Yeah, I hate to do this, but. Because you're probably just driving towards this anyway, but what does she have to do with Supreme Master Ching?

46:22 Kayla: Don't ask that question yet. Chris: Okay. All right. Kayla: Because she's associated with compassion, she's also been associated heavily with vegetarianism. Buddhist cuisine is generally decorated with her image, and she appears in most buddhist vegetarian pamphlets and magazines in East Asia. Chris: What? Kayla: Yeah. So basically, Quan Yin as a method, is an esoteric buddhist practice relating to the ideals of the bodhisattva guanyin. Oh, Mandy. This goddess, this bodhisattva, inspires or is the source of this method that Supreme Master Qinghai says this is the perfect way to enlightenment within a single lifetime. Chris: So she looked at all the things and was like, it's this one.

47:03 Kayla: It's this one that I've learned from the divine master in the himalayas. Chris: Well, I'll be damned. Kayla: After Supreme Master Qinghai reached enlightenment, the mythos around her only grew again. Her sight tells a story about how she now eventually traveled to Taiwan. And one night, when she was meditating in a small temple, she was approached by a group of people who said, quan Yin, bodhisattva, the goddess of mercy, replied to our prayers and told us about you, saying that you were the great master and we should pray to you for the method to reach liberation. She tried to send them away because she was like, no, no. I'm just a girl. I'm just doing my thing. I'm not a leader. Don't worship me. She tried to send them away. The people wouldn't leave.

47:45 Kayla: And eventually, she agreed to initiate these people into the Quan yin method after they agreed to several months of practice with her and to switch to a vegetarian diet. Chris: Okay, all right, switch to a vegetarian diet. That sounds like a little bit of maybe life consumed and or ritual maybe. Kayla: It's definitely associated with this bodhisattva. It's also associated with supreme master herself. We can discuss it later, but definitely keep it in your mind. Supreme Master Qinghai's website also calls her shy and says that she initially did not look for people to teach. And much like those people in the temple, she tried to avoid people who wanted her initiation.

48:26 Chris: Interesting. Kayla: This happened over and over. People would seek her out, she'd send them away. They'd seek her out, she'd send them away. Eventually, she realized she couldn't keep running from this. And becoming a teacher of this method was her destiny. Chris: Yeah, I mean, but we know that's the way to attract people, is. Kayla: To play hard and be like, no. Chris: No, no, please. My enlightenment is only for me. Kayla: Making yourself scarce makes you very attractive. Chris: Yes. Yeah. That's why I've never been attractive. Kayla: Yeah. You do not make yourself scarce. I wish you would. She knew she needed to spread her message and began initiating more and more students into the Quan Yin method. Apparently, one of her largest followings still is in Taiwan, but she's also taught across the world, throughout Asia, the United States, Latin America, and Europe. Her website states, quote, although no formal organization exists to spread her teachings. Grateful friends and disciples are to be found all over the world, ready and willing to help others learn from their beloved master. Now, if you'll recall, we set up top, did we say this up top? Maybe I'll cut this out. We said up top that all of her businesses were like kind of conglomed under one roof.

49:37 Chris: We're definitely not cutting this. Yeah, you said that there's like a supreme master. Kayla: Shanghai International association. Chris: Yeah, yeah. Kayla: So to me, that seems like a pretty formal organization, existing to spread your teachings. But I guess that doesn't match their definition of formal organization. Existing spread of. Chris: Once you have a conglomerate corporation, once. Kayla: You LLC, you're like, that's not even LLC. Chris: That's an LLC with subsidiaries. Right, right. That's some work. There's somebody whose job is just to make sure that's all running smoothly. Kayla: So that's according to the website, call a little bit of shenanigans on it. Now, you might be wondering exactly what are her teachings?

50:23 Chris: I was, I was. Well, aren't her teachings just, she says, hey, follow this lady. Follow Guanyin. Kayla: Well, there's a specific method. Chris: Okay, so there's like her flavor of it. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: And it's a very vegetarian flavor, I might add. Kayla: Oh, my God. Chris: Shut up. Kayla: Jesus Christ. So it's a little difficult to kind of parse out what exactly the specific method is. I think partly, bye. It's just a lot of weird stuff. And sometimes it's difficult to communicate and also partly by like, intentional obfuscation because you need to be initiated. You specifically need to be initiated into this method. You can't just like, I'm Guanyin now, like, you have to be initiated into this practice.

51:07 Chris: So it's closed door. Kayla: But we do know that vegan food, she's into vegan food and she preaches vegan food and that there's some compassion going on. Another tangible is that she and her followers meditate two and a half hours a day. And on some days, I think specifically Sundays, that meditation session can stretch into the five hour mark. Whoo. Chris: That's a lot. Kayla: Now, we will get into some more specifics later because I did some more digging. We got some more, but we'll table it for now and we'll talk about it later. Chris: We'll get to that. Kayla: We'll get to that. She is said to go where there is suffering in order to alleviate it, be it spiritual suffering, physical material. Again, according to her website, she has helped with homelessness in the US SoCal fire victims Midwest, us flood victims, disadvantaged elderly in Brazil.

51:57 Chris: That's more than most Americans do. Kayla: People displaced by volcanic eruptions in the Philippines. Outlook, refugees. And the list goes on and on and on. I couldn't really find much to corroborate this, as, again, most of the stuff just kind of led back to her own websites. However, we can confirm that she has received a number of global. Different global awards. Chris: Oh, really? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay, well, that seems corroborating. Kayla: I mean, it's not corroborating of these specific claims, but she has gotten some awards. Chris: Yeah, it suggests that there's some veracity to them. Kayla: Right. So, according to her website, quote, although she has not sought acknowledgement of any kind, the Supreme Master Qinghai has been recognized and honored for her humanitarian work by government officials throughout the world. For example, October 25, 1993, was proclaimed the supreme Master Qinghai Day by the mayor of Honolulu, Hawaii. And February 22, 1994, was likewise proclaimed by the governors of the states of Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, Kansas, Missouri and Minnesota.

52:58 Chris: They had supreme Master Ching high days in the midwest. Kayla: Yep. Because she helped the flood victims. Chris: Oh, oh, okay, okay. Kayla: She also received the World Peace Award in Honolulu and the World Spiritual Leadership Award at a ceremony in Chicago on February 22, 1994. Congratulatory messages were sent to the Chicago ceremony by many government officials worldwide, including Presidents Clinton, Bush and Reagan. Chris: Damn, she's big time. Kayla: Other awards I could find. 1993, Frank Fosse, mayor of Honolulu, again presented her with honorary citizenship. She was presented.

53:39 Chris: How come I've never heard of this person? Kayla: I think you should remember that. It's weird. Chris: Okay. Kayla: It's just weird to me. I don't really get into that, but, like. Yeah, it's kind of like Donald situation. Chris: Yeah. Is it that, or is it just like. It's the racism? Like, I haven't heard of anything that's, you know, east of the. Kayla: Oh, no, because she's here. I think she lives here in the US. I couldn't quite. I couldn't find her address. I tried to, like, figure out where she is, but I think she. Chris: Can we go to her house? Kayla: I think she resides in the United States, currently. California, I think Florida. Chris: Ooh, I know where we're going next time we visit Florida. Kayla: So. So, yeah, she got all these awards, the 94 awards we talked about. In 2006, she got the Goosey Peace Prize presented by the president of the Philippines, Gloria Macapagal Arroyo. Now, I'm going to read you something from her website that we need to keep in mind. For the future. I don't remember why I said that, so maybe I'll cut that part. I don't know. I don't remember why I said, we're going to keep it in mind, but we'll see. The sales of all her artistic endeavors have enabled Master Qinghai to create an independent source of funding for humanitarian activities, highlighting her pragmatic view that we should always try and create our own means from which to give others. So, yeah, we do talk about that a little bit more, a little bit later.

55:07 Chris: Okay. Kayla: She still teaches all over the world. She gives lectures to students who wish to be initiated and are willing to accept, and is willing to accept all faiths into her spiritual practice. So, again, being into supreme mess or Shanghai is not mutually exclusive with, like, Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism. Chris: I feel like that's common, too. Kayla: Yeah, I know. Chris: You know, like, that was. That was Bhagwantry Rajneesh's thing. Kayla: Right? Chris: That's Ramtha's thing. Kayla: We're not a religion. We're just a thing. Chris: Yeah. You can do whatever religion you want and still do this. It's good because it lowers the barrier of entry. Kayla: Right. But also, like, there are, quote unquote, legitimate organizations that do it as well, like the unitarian universalist church, which is, like, that's a very. Chris: Also a cult.

55:48 Kayla: It's a very legitimate faith organization, but it is not mutually exclusive with Christianity or Buddhism or Islam or other faiths. Anybody can be a unitarian universalist and also continue to practice other faiths. Maybe we'll do them someday. Chris: That is. I'm having a hard time logicking that. Kayla: Atheists can be in the church because they're. Because it's more like the unitarian universalist. From what I understand, it's almost more of a humanist organization. Chris: Yeah, it doesn't seem like an organization. Kayla: It's not like an organized faith in that way. Chris: But I guess we've talked about this before. If what you want out of church is that sense of community and togetherness and helping your neighbor and that kind of thing, then. And if you find that there, then I guess you can call it a church just for that flavor.

56:37 Kayla: Plus, they get to sing, like, popular songs as opposed to, like, hymns. Chris: Oh, shit. Kayla: Yeah, it's great. Chris: Nice. Kayla: Supreme Master Qinghai speaks five languages, and she says that all her lectures and initiations are free of charge. Okay, so now we've got an overview of who Supreme Master Qinghai is, and it all sounds, like pretty okay, right? Chris: Like, the fact that you're asking me that is really scary. Well, right now, here's what it sounds like to me right now. Some lady, she did a lot of studying, a lot of. A lot of trying to get enlightened. She found the things she liked. Other people liked it, too, started following her, and then she'd a bunch of humanitarian things, and then got important, if not famous, right?

57:20 Kayla: Like, this is just a woman who promotes veganism and meditation and compassion. Yeah, we ate one of her restaurants. It was delicious. So, at this point, like, maybe you're. Chris: Thinking, okay, can we just say the end at this point and just have. Kayla: It's another weird group here, right? Or at least, like, at least we're looking at another beneficial cult. Chris: Huh. The end. Kayla: I want to confess something. I wrote this script simultaneously while I was doing research. So when I wrote these words, I hadn't yet come across anything too terrible about Supreme Master Qinghai and her group. But we're just getting started, so maybe. Maybe I'll contradict myself later. I know now, but the me that wrote this didn't know. And the you now listening to it don't know. So let's find out together. Let's. Let's go ahead and talk about her various business ventures, including loving hut, and more specific details of her teachings.

58:16 Chris: Good. Let's bring it back to our lunche. Kayla: I mean, my next sentence is, we've talked plenty about loving Hut at this point. So, just to reiterate, Loving Hut is a restaurant concept created by supreme master Shinghai in 2008. It is the fastest growing vegan restaurant chain in the world and has 140 locations across the globe. Each restaurant is a franchise, allowing each owner to create their own vegan menu in restaurant style. Each owner is a member of Qinghai's movement. As we noted when we ate there, many restaurants feed feature photos of famous vegans. We saw it. And then, like, the person who wrote the vice article also experienced that same thing. Chris: Okay. Kayla: And every single restaurant features a television that plays, as we mentioned, supreme Master Shanghai's very own 24/7 pro vegan, pro peace satellite channel known as Supreme Master TV.

59:08 Chris: Okay, still not sounding bad. Peace is good. Kayla: Yeah, it's great. Let's talk about Suprememaster TV a little bit. If you Google Supreme Master TV, you get a number of Supremaster TV.com, comma, SMTV, dot godsdirectcontact.net, supremaster Television, YouTube, Supremaster TV. And the list goes on. And that's actually something that I noticed in my research. Like, this woman has a shit ton of websites, like a million different websites, all kind of the same thing, but just a million different, like, domain names. Chris: I mean, she approaches that the same way she approached religion. You just set shotgun effect. Yeah. Kayla: Pokemon. Supreme Master TV is just. It's interesting. You and I witnessed it.

59:54 Chris: It was weird. Kayla: I think you might have already said this, but if not, I'll repeat it. Supreme Master television calls itself, quote, constructive programming for a peaceful world. It has its own logo, counts like a little heart thingy. And like we mentioned, 24/7 satellite channel owned by Qinghai herself. It is broadcast in over 40 countries and provides subtitles in a half dozen to a dozen languages. While the focus of the channel is Qinghai's specific brand of veganism and Buddhism, the rest of the various programming on the channel consists of spiritual and uplifting and pro vegan and eco friendly. Stories such as. These are, like, literally names and or descriptions of programs that are present on the channel. Uplifting literature, teachings from saints, breatharianism.

1:00:45 Chris: Yes, there it is. Kayla: Animal world, our co inhabitants. Cinema scene and show. Chris: Show. Just show. Kayla: There was just a thing called show. I honestly, I put the link in here because I just needed you to see it. Cause I clicked on it. Like, this is a program. This is like something that's played on the show. Chris: Is it show the show? Kayla: It literally was just a link that said. It just said show. And then I click on it, and it just. Is this. It just says show. Show. That's it. Chris: Somebody call Kyle Mooney. Kayla: Show. Show. Chris: It's show. The show. Kayla: So. Chris: Okay. Kayla: I liked that one. Chris: Yeah, that's. I dig it. Kayla: So show. And then just kind of on and on. Because, again, it's a 24/7 channel. There needs to be a ton of programming. And like we said, we saw the channel while we're eating there, and it was weird. Like, it looks like a PBS show put on by a cult. That's what it looks like.

1:01:41 Chris: Yeah, it does. It's like a cable access cult channel. Kayla: Yeah. Supreme Master Ching Hai herself also makes appearances there, of course, frequently. And interestingly, their twitter is extremely active, and they tweet about once a day. Chris: No shit. Why aren't we following them yet? Kayla: I think I did. I either followed them from my personal or from our culture. Just weird Twitter account. Either way, we're following them. Chris: Yeah. Okay, good. Kayla: They tend to highlight various eco friendly advances in technology, animal discoveries, that kind of thing. Supreme Master tv also claims to be a nonprofit. For what it's worth, many of the people who appear on this station and help it run are volunteers that is unpaid followers of supreme mastered Shanghai. Theyll pay for their own travel just for the opportunity of working for the supreme master herself. But like we mentioned, supreme master tv and lovinghut arent supreme master Shanghais only business ventures. She also launched a clothing line in New York and Paris in 1995. And I think she still sells some of this shit on her website. She has authored picture books such as the birds in my life and the Noble Wilds. And those are books consisting of photos that she has taken. She's written other books.

1:02:49 Kayla: She sells all these things on her website. Chris: All these things are very disparate. Kayla: Her organization hosts websites which offer digital downloads of her media in 17 languages, as well as a, quote, celestial shop, which sells apparel and jewelry designed by high, often monogrammed with SM or supreme master. And she also, there sells her own paintings and vegan fur. Chris: Vegan fur. Kayla: Vegan fur. Chris: Love it. Kayla: Which is. Which is plastic, right. Chris: But I'm sure it feels nice. Kayla: I'm not saying it doesn't feel nice. I just. When you start getting into the, like, the vegan fur and the vegan leather stuff, it gets really interesting because it's just as damaging. Because, yeah, it can be very damaging to the ecosystem. Because, again, like, vegan fur is plastic, which kills a lot of fish and other animals. Vegan leather is made out of petroleum. Don't think I need to explain that any further. So it's kind of like, where. How much karmic harm are you outweighing?

1:03:50 Chris: Veganism can get problematic. Kayla: Yeah, yeah, we'll do that one day. Chris: Aren't we kind of like we're doing veganism, the cult here? Kayla: No, we're just doing a cult that has veganism. We'll do veganism as a cult later. Chris: Adjacent. Kayla: So, yeah, the girl makes money, but even so, it's not entirely clear where her fortune comes from. We might have mentioned before that Qinghai claims that the group doesn't ask for or accept donations, but that doesn't really make sense. Chris: You said the channel was nonprofit. Kayla: Channel's nonprofit. Her thing's a non profit. But, like, nonprofits still accept donations. But, like, if you go on some of her websites, they very much, like, we do not accept. Which, again, doesn't make any sense because, like, multiple. Okay, multiple reports claim that the Los Angeles chapter of the group, which is the largest chapter, has 1.2 million in assets. And I saw la. Whoo. Yeah. I saw reports that had that as high as 3.7 million.

1:04:44 Chris: Oh, my God. Kayla: But there's very little evidence from the IR's or otherwise, that these aren't donation based. So I don't understand. Chris: Huh. Kayla: But there's also evidence. There's also no evidence from the IR's or otherwise that the money is being improperly spent. Chris: Okay. Kayla: In fact, the group donates huge sums per year. In 2009, the LA center donated $639,066 to a variety of charitable organizations. Chris: That's not pocket change. Kayla: No. And it also doesn't look like anyone's like this money. Doesn't look like it's going directly into her pockets. You know what I mean? No one's getting improperly rich off of this.

1:05:26 Chris: So she's not, like, flying in helicopters and then going into a Rolls Royce. Kayla: Oh, we'll talk about it. Their donations aren't entirely scandal free, however. In 1994, Supreme Master Shanghai gave $640,000 to Bill Clinton's presidential legal expenses trust, which two years later, was returned because of, quote, unquote, suspicious funding sources. And I couldn't really find too much more about it than suspicious funding sources. Chris: That doesn't sound good for either of them. Kayla: After that return, her group was described as a cult by both Time magazine and the Chicago Tribune. Chris: Oh, so they just dove right in.

1:06:07 Kayla: Called it a cult. Chris: Okay. Kayla: Political scientist Patricia Thornton at the University of Oxford claims that the source of income behind all of Hyde's various business ventures are still murky. Because, again, we don't know where she. Chris: Makes her money at all. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: We just don't know. Kayla: I mean, yeah, basically. Chris: Do we guess? Do you guess? Kayla: No. Chris: Do you have a theory? Is it the food? Kayla: We can talk about it later. Chris: Okay. Kayla: We'll get into it. She also says that the Qinghai World Society's heavy reliance on the Internet for text distribution, recruitment and information sharing marks the group as a transnational cybersect. Good to know. Chris: Oh, you almost said cyber sex. Kayla: Transnational cybersecs. And that most of the media produced by our television programs is heavily self referential and promotional and aims to, quote, build a public record of recognition for group activities. So, basically, it's a recruitment tool, which.

1:06:59 Chris: Yeah, clearly. Kayla: But, like, this is a professional person saying that. Chris: Oh, well, yeah, but, I mean, I feel like watching that channel. It was clearly pretty clear. Yeah. So. Kayla: Okay, I feel like we've talked about. Enough about the business stuff. Let's move on now to the weirder stuff. We can talk about the specific teachings. We can talk about her personality, her father. Chris: You said we'd get to that and. Kayla: All that juicy shit when I asked. Chris: Where the hell does her money come from? Kayla: We can speculate later when it's appropriate. Chris: Okay. Kayla: We said we'd come back to the Quan Yin method, so let's do that. Now, according to my research, the first time qinghai demonstrated the method for followers was in Taiwan. And while its shorthand name is the Quan yin method of meditation, shes also called it the immeasurable light meditation center in the way of sound contemplation.

1:07:49 Chris: Thats a mouthful. Kayla: Which kind of relates back to what? Quan Yin, about listening to the sounds of the world. Chris: Okay. Sure. Kayla: The method is similar to a particular form of yoga called sratsabad yoga, which is found in a hindi tradition. This form of yoga relies heavily on spiritual vibrations and internal mantras. And again, Qinghai did not invent this method herself, but was initiated into it, and now she initiates others. Chris: Was this what she learned from the Himalaya dude? Kayla: Yes. Chris: Okay. Kayla: The mantra she often gives to followers to utilize during meditation is her own name. In fact, she wrote a book called the key of immediate enlightenment and said in that book that those who recite her name as a mantra during the practice would become spiritually enlightened.

1:08:40 Chris: That is. Oh, man, that is ballsy. Kayla: It is clever. Chris: I respect that a lot. Kayla: The meditation method also asks that you center on the inner light and inner sound of God. Take that as you will. One nice thing about qinghai is that she incorporates a variety of faiths into her teachings. Like we said and says that the Bible itself contains descriptions of this method. And many other world religions have also used it. They just called it different names. As mentioned before, the method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day, as well as an adherence to a vegan or vegetarian diet. And one must also adhere to five precepts. The precepts of the quan yin method are very similar to the five precepts Buddhism. Okay, so I'll read those for you now. They're basically the same thing.

1:09:29 Kayla: One, as all Buddhists refrain from killing until the end of their lives, so I, too, will refrain from killing until the end of my life. Two, as all buddhas refrained from stealing until the end of their lives, so I, too, will refrain from stealing until the end of my life. Three, as all buddhas refrain from sexual misconduct until the end of their lives, so I, too, will refrain from sexual misconduct until the end of my life. Four, as all buddhas refrain from false speech until the end of their lives, so I, too, will refrain from false speech until the end of my life. Five, as all buddhas refrain from alcohol until the end of their lives. So I, too, will refrain from alcohol until the end of my life. Chris: Boring. Kayla: So, some of the differences between the Kuan yin precepts and the buddhist precepts are basically, like, I think they specifically call out lying instead of false speech. And then I think instead of just being only alcohol, like, they're kind of no mind altering substances at all.

1:10:23 Chris: Again, boring. Yeah, but they're enlightened, so their mind is already altered. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: They can just meditate their way into being high. Kayla: Exactly. Chris: Man, that's awesome. Kayla: Qinghai. Supreme Master Qinghai refers to herself as God's direct contact. In fact, that's the name of one of her websites. Chris: I feel like I've heard that from other charismatic leaders. Kayla: So that means that her enlightenment has put her directly in touch with the ultimate deity, and followers can think of her as a conduit to the divine. Chris: I feel like we need to go ask Teal, who has access to the Akashic records if Qinghai can really talk to God. Kayla: Right. Chris: Or maybe we should ask Qinghai if she can ask goddess if teal really has access to the Akashic records.

1:11:10 Kayla: But don't leave Ramtha out of this. Chris: Oh, right. All right. I'll have to get back to you. Kayla: So, kind of along with this, in all of her websites, all several million of her websites, she is written about in a way that mimics the way christians speak about their God. That is, her pronouns, she, her, are always capitalized. Interesting. Chris: Oh, man. I just use that word again. Chutzpah on this lady is. Kayla: But remember, she didn't ask for this. She didn't pursue this. This was thrust upon her. Chris: Yeah, right. Kayla: So humble followers sought her out. Chris: She's humble. Kayla: She tried to send them away. And speaking of her followers, it's estimated that she has anywhere from 500,000 to 2 million people worldwide.

1:11:56 Chris: Holy crap. Kayla: Not a small deal. Not a small deal. Chris: So, when we get to. Is it niche? Kayla: Yeah. Remember that for our criteria, she's also. This is where we can kind of talk about. We can start speculating about some of the money thing again. She's also incredibly well known for her looks. That sounds weird. So, let me explain. Chris: Are you gonna show me a picture? Kayla: Yes. Supreme Master Qinghai appears on her television channel often, as well as in speaking engagements publicly and speaking engagements all over the world. Ever since she's become such a public figure. I misspelled that. And it says pubic figure. Just thought you might want to know that ever since she's become such a public figure, she's been known for her colorful gowns and robes, her crown like headdresses, and her very noticeable jewelry, a look that actually mimics the depiction of Guanyin herself. She currently, she currently has platinum blonde hair and rarely appears wearing the same thing twice.

1:12:53 Chris: Does she look like Mary Kay? Kayla: She does not look like Mary Kay, but I feel like she does have nice makeup. I'll show you some pictures in a moment. Some critics point to her personal style as being incompatible with her claims of being humble and living modestly. Also kind of doesn't go along with the, like, she's not getting rich off of her religion. These critics also point to the fact that while she doesn't travel by helicopter necessarily, she often travels to events via limousine and, quote, inspires feverish adoration, like a kind of deity cum rock star. Often when she appears, it's on lavish sets, and she's accompanied by a small handful of her preferred followers. So, yeah, let me pull up some pickies.

1:13:38 Chris: Pickies? Kayla: Pickies. Chris: Is that what the xenials are calling pictures? Kayla: That's what I'm calling pictures. So that's an image of her on her website. Chris: Wow. Kayla: This is pre platinum blonde hair. Chris: Okay. Kayla: You can see she's got, like, she's adorned with a ton of jewelry. She's got a bunch of necklaces, big old earrings, like a crowny thingy, and then. Yeah, like a giant headdress. Chris: She looks like a literal queen. Kayla: Yeah, yeah. She looks like a supreme master. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Next one is similar, just a different color. Less jewelry. No platinum blonde hair. Chris: Clothing's gorgeous. Kayla: She does have platinum blonde hair. This is a picky of her. Chris: Stop saying picky, please. Kayla: This is a picture of her basically entering one of her sets to give a speech.

1:14:21 Chris: Yep. And I see she has, like, handlers there. Kayla: She's being accompanied by two gorgeous golden women. They're clad in gold, straight up. She looks like a goddess. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: So, yeah, it kind of doesn't really. Not really as compatible with the, like, the money gets donated. No one's getting rich out of this. Chris: Yeah. Like, humility is one of the last words I think of when I look at this picture. Kayla: She kind of addresses that in a way that, again, doesn't really go along with the, like, she's shy, lifestyle type thing. We'll talk about in a second. We're starting now to get into what I'm going to call the tidbits. Just the weird little things that came up during my research that just kind of made me go, huh.

1:15:09 Chris: Also the little bits of leftover fake beef and peapods were also tidbits. Kayla: So at one point in Supreme Master Shanghai's career as a spiritual leader, she allegedly sold her bath water online, claiming that it had spiritual healing properties. Also, allegedly, she once sold her dirty socks to a follower for $800. Allegedly. Supreme master Ching hai, as we mentioned, is a pseudonym, but she has other pseudonyms in the States. Like I mentioned, where she sometimes resides, she operates under the name Celestia de Lamour.

1:15:50 Chris: That's a great name. That's also a drag name. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So, I don't know. She probably stole that from a drag queen. Kayla: Well, strangely enough, the name came up during a particularly weird controversy that had to do with her. In 2004, an artificial island and a 330 foot long boardwalk was created in the Biscayne national park, which is in Florida. Chris: Yeah, Biscayne. Yeah, yeah, it was. Kayla: So, okay, this thing got built. Kind of just popped up out of nowhere and then. Chris: What do you mean this thing got built? Kayla: It was an artificial island with a boardwalk got built in Biscayne National park. And it's a national park. Chris: You can't just, like, build stuff there.

1:16:31 Kayla: Yeah, I know. The government had to spend a million dollars to remove it after it was illegally constructed by workers at a property owned by Qinghai. So she kind of, like, lived near this thing, and then they. They were just like, we're gonna build this. And she was known locally under the pseudonym Celestia de Lamour. Chris: You kind of broke me there. Kayla: Sorry. The private property owned by supreme master Shanghai adjacent to the national park was then seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay. Chris: Question. Why did she do that? Why did she build an artificial. Kayla: Followers did it. Chris: Her followers did it. Kayla: Her followers did it. And the idea is that her followers did it to please. Her follow up question, unclear whether they were directed to do this or they were just kind of like, let's build.

1:17:17 Chris: Okay, that was my follow up question. Kayla: Unclear. Chris: Right. Okay, so. And this is all tied back to my lunch today. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Got it. Kayla: Yeah. This lady is the one who made it possible for you to eat at Lovinghut because it was her idea. It was her brainchild. I found one new site which claimed that Qinghaide, at various times, had promoted the idea that time travel is possible. Chris: Is possible. Kayla: Is possible. I don't think. It's hard to believe that's something that she touts, because like we said earlier, she believes in fucking breatharianism, which for anyone who doesn't know, breatharianism is the belief that human beings can survive on simply sunlight and water alone. Like a plant, you can just breathe in the nutrients that you need from the air.

1:18:04 Chris: PS, plants can't survive on that alone. But, yeah. Kayla: And also breatharianism has like, injured and killed people. So don't do it. Chris: Yeah, don't not eat forever. Kayla: No. Also don't stare directly into the sun. Chris: That does feel like a natural extension of like, super veganism. You know, it's like if I don't want to kill any. Kayla: Right. You go from super, you go from strict veganism to fruitarianism to breatharianism to you're dead. Chris: Can you eat salt? Cause salt, you don't have to kill anything. Kayla: Yeah, but you don't kill anything to like, eat other things either. Like breatharianism. I don't think there's, I don't think in breath arianism there's like, just eat salt. Chris: I guess. I guess if you're one of those people that like, only eats the fruit that like, naturally fell off. Right. You could do that.

1:18:47 Kayla: One day we'll do breatharianism on this podcast. Because, like, my favorite story about breatharianism was like, I don't know if it was just some guy who ran a sect or if it's like the guy who like, invented breatharianism. He was once caught sneaking into a hotel and ordering a chicken pie. Chris: Oh, yeah, I remember that story. Okay, next time on cult or just weird. Kayla: So she believes in breatharianism. She believes in time travel. In other lectures, she's promoted the idea of materialism. This is what I mentioned before. This is a quote from her. People will make you feel guilty about making money. It's none of their business. Chris: Are you sure you're not just quoting Bhagwan tree Rajneesh there? Yeah, almost word for word.

1:19:28 Kayla: I know. Chris: Okay. Kayla: There's a lot of similarities amongst a lot of these groups. Chris: Huh. I wonder why. It's almost like, it's almost like they need some sort of internal justification for all the money that they get. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Interesting. Kayla: I think it's less than, I think it's more like, don't criticize me for making money. Chris: That's what I mean. Kayla: Yeah. I thought you meant more like they have to convince themselves. 0000 I think it's more of an external justification. Chris: Yeah. I meant intro to the cult, but yeah. Kayla: Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. So we're both right. She's also mentioned that crop circles are messages aliens leave for each other and show UFO's were to land safely. Chris: Okay, well, I've seen signs, so I know that's true.

1:20:11 Kayla: I'll take this moment to clarify that crop circles are a pretty neatly debunked hoax. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: Sorry. Chris: It's people. Kayla: It's not aliens. I'll link to some info then. Chris: Why do I have all these glasses of water just sitting around my house? Kayla: You didn't even like that movie. Chris: It was mediocre. Kayla: It was fantastic. I love aliens. Chris: Like, 70% of our audience. What the f. They talking about water. Kayla: Around your go watch signs. It was mi chamois third film, I believe. Chris: If you email us at cult or just weird, I will give you the synopsis of signs. And you don't have to watch it. Kayla: Okay. I think people. People can probably just google it for themselves. They don't need you to give them a synopsis. Chris: Maybe they want it. Maybe this is. Maybe cults are just weird movie critic cornering.

1:20:53 Kayla: Well, if you watch the movie, email us and let us know, and then we could talk about it. Chris: Let us know how crappy it was. Kayla: I really like that movie, and you're wrong about a lot of things. You also didn't like children of men, so you can pretty much fuck right off. That's what I'm gonna say right now. In an article in the Phoenix New Times, Stephen Lemons visited the supreme master Qinghai International association in Arizona. It's a smaller one, I think. There's, like, only 40 people that go there. And even so, he noticed that the center featured numerous shrines to Qinghai herself, including large portraits of her. And many followers at the center wore, like, big medallions that also had, like, photos of Supreme Master Shanghai on them. She's also vehemently a proponent of anti climate change activism.

1:21:42 Chris: Well, that's nice. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: I mean, veganism helps that more than pretty much anything, right? Kayla: She believes veganism will save the world. She often points to the fact that there used to be four Venuses as a cautionary tale. The other ones died out. Chris: Where did that come from? Kayla: The other Venus has died out due to global warming, and we don't want to be like them. It's also. Chris: Okay, hold on. Kayla: Couldn't find out much more about that. Chris: Where are they? Are they in the current Venus's orbit? Kayla: No, I think they just, like, flew away. Chris: So they got so hot that they. Kayla: Flew away or disintegrated or they just. Chris: Oh, they melted. They were disintegrated. Okay. They melted and were destroyed. Does she know how hot the current Venus is? That it's, like, the most global warmed place. Kayla: You'll have to ask her.

1:22:23 Chris: Okay, well, I mean, we're gonna go talk to her when we go to Biscayne Bay. Kayla: It's actually really funny. No, that property was sold. She doesn't have that property. Chris: All right, well, shit, we gotta track her down. Kayla: It's really funny because in this article in the Phoenix New Times, which I think is from 2009, they talk a lot about her belief in climate change and her like, anti climate change activism. And because it was 2009 and because it's coming from Phoenix, they paint that aspect of her teachings. Chris: Oh, interesting cult as like, this is. Kayla: Very much doomsday cult stuff. She thinks the world's gonna end. It's just kind of like all of those Hale bop comet people.

1:23:04 Chris: Great, great. That's. Kayla: But again, it's 2009. I don't know if ten years later, if this. If this writer would say the same thing. Also, this writer was clearly wrong. I don't want to side with the cult leader, but climate change is real, right? Chris: No, it's. It's. But it is shitty. Kayla: We don't want to burn up, like, one of the four Venuses, right? Chris: We don't. Yeah, I mean, there's only one Venus left, but yeah, no, it is shitty that it's a. Like that you can attach negativity to something like that. Kayla: Right. Chris: Via being a little. Also crazy. Kayla: Well, it's the same with veganism too. Like you said. Like, I don't know if veganism is necessary the answer to saving the world. I do think it is answer. Potentially not. That's not going to fix everything, but it's definitely a tactic that can be taken.

1:23:49 Chris: Sure. Kayla: Simple fact to attach it to a cult is just kind of like shitty, right? Chris: Well, the simple fact is that the. The most greenhouse gases comes from, unfortunately, raising meat for us to eat. Kayla: Right? Chris: At least the most powerful ones, if not by volume, certainly by. By greenhouse. Kayla: Literally all their farts in burps and poops. Chris: Right. Which I am aware of. And I honestly be vegan myself. I just. I love meat so much. Kayla: Oh, yeah. I guess I should like full disclosure. One host is meatarian and the other host is a 99% of the time vegetarian. Dabbles in veganism and other things from time to time. I don't think it's a mystery. Which is. Which is it?

1:24:39 Chris: Because I already said that I'm Meatosaurus. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. I don't only eat meat. Kayla: He only eats meat. Don't let him fool you. Chris: Sometimes I have, like, sauce on the. Kayla: Meat, sometimes you put salt on the meat. Chris: Yeah. And then, like, hot dogs need to have. Kayla: Gotta have a bun. Chris: I was gonna say mustard buns are optional. Really? Kayla: Buns are always optional. So, yeah, climate change is real. Try a vegan meal once in a while. If the world ends because of you. Cow poops. Chris: Oh, sorry. Kayla: Right. So we said that we're gonna get into the weird stuff. Chris: Wait, this is already. There's four venuses. Kayla: Let's get into the real weird stuff. This is the, like, real life, culty, like, hard cult kind of stuff.

1:25:23 Chris: Okay. Kayla: First, Qinghai was at the center of a controversy in China in 2002. While her movement had long been deemed anti communist and a reactionary religious organization in China. The real trouble because, again, like, as far as I know, please correct me if I'm wrong, there's not a lot of room for various faiths in China. And various faiths can be labeled these things, especially, like, back in 2002 times. Chris: Yeah, I think that's true, but that's not a topic that I am well versed in, other than just knowing that traditional leninist communism, at least Washington was atheist, was anti religion. Kayla: So the real trouble for Qinghai began when an electronics company was accused by the government of actually being a front for recruiting members into supreme. Mister Qinghai's group.

1:26:14 Chris: An electronics company? Kayla: Yeah. And they were secretly distributing texts in organizing these initiations. Now, doesn't really mean anything, because, like, China thinks a lot of things are cults, right? Sure. They have deemed a lot of various religions cults. So that doesn't necessarily mean Qinghai's a cult. I mean, as one of the articles I read stated, unlike practices used at better known cults, Qinghai does not seem to be calling on her followers to cut themselves off from their friends and family, nor hustling them for their money. Chris: Aw. Kayla: According to her website, her lectures, which are attended by hundreds of devotees, are free of charge. Okay, but not so fast. Oh, the my recipes article, as well.

1:26:55 Chris: As, oh, my recipes with the incisive. Kayla: Well, it was a combo. What follows is a combo of my recipes and the Phoenix New Times article. Chris: Why my recipes? Kayla: They have a journalism branch I don't understand. But, like, what's it's called? Like, crusty or something. Chris: But is it because of loving hut that they're like, we're gonna dig into this, or is it just, like, random? Why did somebody at the my recipes journalism branch say, I'm gonna do a story on Shanghai? Kayla: Because it's about food. Chris: Okay? Because it's about food. That's what I was okay. Kayla: Yeah. It's called the journalism branch is called Extra crispy. Chris: Extra crispy. Kayla: I love it. So according to their article and the Phoenix and Times article, they both quoted Rick Allen Ross, who is the founder of the cult education Institute.

1:27:42 Chris: Yeah. Kayla: And he firmly believes Qinghai's organization is a cult. According to my recipes, I look at. Chris: His stuff pretty much every episode, and most of the ones we've talked about. Kayla: He says they're cult. Chris: He has said at least something about, if not declaring, including, I believe, last episode with Mary Kay. Kayla: Oh, interesting. Chris: Yeah. It's sort of like this. This goal in my head of having him on the show one day. Kayla: Ooh. Rick Allen Ross. Get on our show. Chris: Get on it. Kayla: Do we follow him on Twitter? We should. So the articles quote him as saying, quote, cei the art. Wait, according to my recipes, quote, the CEI had received complaints from friends and loved ones of group members who said that they'd become so submersed in its activities that they had begun to neglect their families. One such story appeared in the northeast Wales Daily Post under the provocative headline, cult took my wife. Now it's funding a woodland in north Wales. Describing an elderly man who claimed his wife had left him and their ten year old son for the group, the man urged a local trust not to accept a sizable donation from Qinghai, which he said was given in order to buy credibility. Phoenix New Times shed a little more light on this situation, said they quoted Liverpool's Daily Post.

1:29:01 Kayla: Liverpool's Daily Post quoted the anonymous man as saying that his wife, an academic, would disappear for months whenever the supreme master ordered. He claimed. Months. He claimed she lost a well paying job because of it and ended up wasting money buying the cult's jewelry at 7000 to 8000 pounds per item. Chris: Oh, man. And she would just give it to the cult? Like, here's. Here's. Kayla: No. She would buy the jewelry. Right. Chris: That's what I'm saying. She'd buy the jewelry. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: So she would wear it or she would give it to Qinghai. Kayla: She was buying the jewelry from the cult. Chris: Oh, from the cult. I'm sorry, I thought you meant that she. Kayla: No, she was buying the jewelry that. Chris: And then giving it to. Kayla: No, because Qinghai designs jewelry herself. Chris: I forgot that they also did that.

1:29:43 Kayla: So she was spending seven to 8000 pounds per necklace or whatever. Chris: Yeah, worth. Kayla: The same article mentioned that the message board on the Rick Ross Institute website often speaks of cult like activity coming out of this group. Family members of Qinghai followers have claimed that the association brainwashes its members through prolonged meditation, which we know about, and a diet that keeps them weak and compliant. Ooh, interesting. Chris: Oh, no. What did we eat? Kayla: High's followers end up devoting all their time to the cult and force their families into debt, spending money on high merchandise. Now, there's a bit of a myth that a vegan diet is gonna make you weakly.

1:30:26 Chris: Right? I know. That's super not true. Kayla: Yeah, there are vegan bodybuilders out there. There's plenty of vegans walking around that get all their nutrition. So I don't know if I buy this. Like, these people are being subjugated by their vegan diet. I don't really buy that. I do buy the vegan diet being used as kind of like a group building ritual, if you want. Chris: Ritual. Kayla: Yeah, I buy that. I don't buy it. That they're, like, all weak on the floor and can't. Chris: Right. It's because it's a misconception that vegetarianism won't get your nutrients other. Kayla: Except for b twelve. Vegans get your b twelve, you can't get it from your food. You have to take really? Chris: That you can only get b twelve from meat? Kayla: I think it's b twelve. I'll double check. But I'm not. Remember how I have. Remember when I was vegan for six months and I had to take those chewable tablets every day?

1:31:13 Chris: Oh, I think it was b twelve. Kayla: It might be a different b. I'll correct myself later if I'm wrong, but there's a specific B vitamin that is only from animal products. So you have to take a supplement. Chris: Son of a gun. Kayla: Other accusations included that Qinghai followers are encouraged to purchase her books on Amazon so that they rise up to the number one spots on the site. Chris: Not cause, like, hey, you should read my book. But just SEO. That's some, like, really convoluted SEO. Kayla: It's probably sold to the followers as, like, buy the books. But really, in reality, she's just trying to get it to number one. Cause remember, this is an accusation from the family members of the people in the cult. Okay, now, to close up, I want to read you a particularly damning passage from the Phoenix New Times, which might heavily influence how we evaluate this group when we get to the end. Regarding Shanghai's movement, Rick Allen Ross is not impressed. He contends the association meets the three requirements laid down by noted cult researcher Robert J. Lifton for classification as a cult.

1:32:19 Chris: Oh, wait, so he only has three criteria? Kayla: Yeah. Chris: What a chump. Kayla: Don't say that. Chris: I mean, we have. What do we have, five? Six. We have six. Right. Kayla: Well, listen to the. Listen to the criteria. Chris: We have six. We are twice as good as this guy. Kayla: Redundant. I don't know. Let's listen to his criteria. Chris: No, that's not how criteria work. Kayla: Here's his criteria for classification of a cult. A charismatic authoritarian leader who becomes the object of worship. Chris: Oh, what? We got it. Kayla: Coercive persuasion or thought reform. Chris: I think that's basically anti factuality and. Kayla: Exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie. Chris: And that is expected harm. But we have three more. Kayla: What the hell are our other ones?

1:33:00 Chris: Because we are twice as good. Kayla: You got niche. Chris: Is it niche? Which is more. It's less. Is it a cult or not? And more, is it, like, accepted? And therefore. Kayla: Right. What are the other two? Chris: And then the other two are percentage of life consumed. Kayla: Percentage of life consumed. Chris: Because we felt that was not necessarily the exact same thing as damage. Kayla: Right. Chris: And then our other one is ritual, which I feel like is an important thing that. Particularly for this show where we're kind of shooting for the gray area. Kayla: Right. Chris: Ritual, I think, helps. Helps identify some of those things. Like we talked about with Irvine. Right. Like, one of the. One of the only reasons that I. Or one of the main reasons that I felt like Irvine was a good choice for the show was because they have their damn logo everywhere.

1:33:47 Kayla: Well, we also. Our definition of ritual is very expansive. It's very inclusive. Chris: Yeah. The point is the ritual everywhere that we are trying to say here is that we are much better. Kayla: I'm not saying that. And I think that if you would like Rick Alan Ross to come on our website one day, you shouldn't criticize. No, but his criteria, these are what he's quoting. So I'll just say, don't criticize him. Chris: Look, I'm not criticizing. I'm just saying that we're way better. There's nothing wrong with that. Like, we are at the peak, okay? We are the mountaintop. And it's okay if you're not as good as us. That's fine. Kayla: Okay. Supreme master. Chris: Supreme master. I would make an excellent charismatic leader. Kayla: Oh, my God. All right. Okay. Going back to the quote from the article, even if the product of the cult, in this case the meals produced by loving huts, are arguably good, Ross said he would never. Arguably, Ross said he would never patronize such an establishment quote. I would not go to a business run by a purported cult leader. He said one that.

1:34:51 Chris: Well, so he's not coming on the show anyway. Now, cause went to the restaurant. Kayla: He could still talk to us. He's not like, I will never talk to someone who's. Chris: Yeah, no. He's gonna be like, oh, I wouldn't have gone there, man. Kayla: Let me finish the quote. Ross said one that exploits or harm members. I would have an ethical problem and feel quite conflicted putting money into the till that ultimately benefits Supreme Master Qinghai. Chris: So he really feels like she's doing some bad stuff. Kayla: I think that he's saying that it doesn't even need to be that, like, people are getting, like, Scientology hidden in, like, pits or, like, teal swan suicided to be, like, bad enough that you shouldn't play around with it.

1:35:32 Chris: So what did I just eat, then? Like, that you just eat vegan food. Kayla: You literally just ate vegan food. There's nothing weird in it. Chris: I know there's nothing weird in it. But now I kind of feel like we just did something unethical. Kayla: Yeah, potentially great. But I also was really good, and I wanna eat there again. Chris: Yeah. I don't know if I wanna eat there again. I think it was fine, frankly, if. Kayla: We would go back to best friends. If we would go back to best friends animal society. Chris: Yeah, but they're done with all that, I think. Kayla: We don't know for sure. And they definitely gotta obfuscate it. Also, we do unethical shit all the time. There's no ethical consumerism under capitalism. Chris: Oh, boy. Right. I. Kayla: You wear. You have a phone. That was probably made by underpaid workers. Yeah.

1:36:16 Chris: Rick Ross. Do you have a phone? Kayla: Yeah. If he has a phone, he's a hypocrite. Chris: We need to stop shitting on this guy. Kayla: I'm not. You stop. Chris: Because I use his information a lot. Kayla: And I definitely agree with him. I'm just saying that, like, you can't live a perfectly ethical life. I'm already the person who's, like, I'm a vegetarian because I feel bad about killing the animals. Chris: Right. Kayla: I want to eat at loving hut sometimes, guys. Chris: Right. Kayla: I can definitely convince myself that it's okay. Chris: Some pig. Kayla: Some pig. Yeah. I don't want to eat wilbur. Remember how she dies at the end? It's really upsetting. Also, do you remember how she was hot? Chris: What? Kayla: Oh, my God. Charlotte, the spider was definitely hot.

1:36:57 Chris: What are you talking about, you weirdo? Kayla: She was hot. She was a hot spider. Chris: No, they. She was always illustrated as a spider. Kayla: No, the. In the. I'm talking about the movie. Chris: Who watched the movie? Kayla: I watched the movie a lot. Chris: Are we gonna keep this whole thing about a hot spider. Kayla: No, but I'm definitely gonna show you a hot spider. She was hot. She's Debbie Reynolds hot spider. Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: Yeah. Tell me she was a hot spider. Chris: Yeah. That is hot. Kayla: Yeah. Anyway, Ross said he regards loving hot restaurants as recruitment tools for Qinghai, whom he views as a nefarious figure. So we may want to rethink going there again. Or if we do, we dine and dash. We do not support dine and dashing. That was a joke.

1:37:43 Chris: Great. So we have to either dine and dash or support a cult. Great. Kayla: But also remember that it's a franchise situation. You're helping a small business, local family business. I don't know. Chris: Sure. Kayla: The food was really good. Okay, before we totally finish with this, I just want to mention that again. I'm leaving out a bunch of stuff because there's just. There's so much here. I'm going to link to a particular article that I couldn't really get to in this when we post the episode. It's an LA Weekly article written by Nancy Rommelman in 2002 in which she was actually able to spend a day with some very high up members of the Qinghai organization, and things got weird. Chris: I'm definitely reading that. Kayla: Yeah. It's an incredible article. You should check it out. I wish there was more room to fit it all in, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Definitely check this article out. It's amazing. All right, so now that we've talked about Supreme Master Qinghai, her background, her spiritual journey, her teachings, her business ventures, and have even eaten at one of her restaurants, do we feel ready to answer the question of this podcast? Is loving hut a cult, or is it just weird?

1:38:51 Chris: For all you ASMR fans, here comes your favorite part. Kayla: I got a bunch of emails telling us to stop doing that. Chris: I know that you didn't, because I share your email account. Here are the criteria. Let's go through them. Shall we? Kayla: Do it. Chris: Okay, so I'm gonna pick them in a random order this time. I don't know why. I just am. Kayla: That's good. Chris: Let's start with percentage of life consumed. Kayla: If you own a franchise, all of it. Your whole life. Chris: Yeah. But then that's also your business, so, you know, that's your source of income, too. But it did sound like that one lady was gone for months at a time.

1:39:34 Kayla: Yeah. Also, if you follow those two and a half hours of meditation a day. Chris: Or up to 5 hours, that's a lot. Kayla: Or people who that, like, go work on her I news channel. And they just, like, they just go do it. Chris: Fuck off. And spend their own money and. Yeah. So I'm gonna say hi. Not like the most we've ever seen. Kayla: Right. Chris: Like, I would say it's less than, like, teal where you're going to her compound. Kayla: Right. Chris: But it's. It can be high for sure. Kayla: Right. Chris: All right, let's move on to anti factuality. Kayla: Okay. Crops breatharianism. Chris: Oh, sorry. Right. There was a lot of. I was. I was thinking just about the more of the. Because there's. There's. There's multiple bits to this. Right. There's the purely worse. We're shooting out just fake stuff. Right. And that's like the crop circles and four venus's. And okay, clearly that's not factual. But then there's also the hiding things. Are they hiding things a little bit maybe, like, where their income comes from or, you know, how much she is actually, like, oh, no, don't follow me, but. Do follow me.

1:40:43 Kayla: But then, like, the actual spiritual practice of, like, meditating and compassion. Like, meditation is good for you. And, like, meditation is a. It's prayer. It's like, that's a part of many spiritual journeys. There's not really a lot of anti factuality there. Like, it's good for your health. Chris: What about the closed logical system where we talk about, like, motivated reasoning and the more that something proves it disproves it? Kayla: I don't really think that's there. Chris: Okay. Yeah. Kayla: Especially not, like, in the restaurants. Like, the restaurants, if you remember, the restaurants weren't very, like. They weren't proselytizing. Chris: They weren't like the tv. Kayla: The tv was. But remember, the tv was on super low. And like, that's noted that the tv is almost always kept very low. It's like, it's there if you want it, but it's. It's. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Not being. You don't have to kind of, like, deal with it. If you want to get a meal there. Like, it's there if you want it. If you want to ask for some literature, it's there if you want to talk about it's there. If you want to watch the tv, it's there. But you can also just go and enjoy your meal and not feel like you're going to be pressured into joining a cult.

1:41:36 Chris: So I'd almost say that there's, like. So they have some bad facts, like, for Venus's, but I almost feel like that falls a little short of anti factuality, where it's just because you have bad facts doesn't necessarily mean you are anti fact. Kayla: Right? Chris: Is that a reality? Kayla: We don't know that. She's like, if somebody fake things to manipulate people. Chris: Right. Kayla: In the way that we're fairly certain that, like, Jay Z Knight is saying fake things to manipulate people. Chris: Right? Kayla: Are we gonna get sued for saying that? Chris: I don't care. Kayla: Jay Z Knight's saying fake things to manipulate people. Chris: Yeah. That is what's happening. Okay. Ritual. I mean, for sure here, I'm definitely thinking there's some ritual. Kayla: Two and a half hours meditation.

1:42:16 Chris: We just participated in one of the rituals. Kayla: Vegan food. Yeah. Yeah. Chris: Eating is. Even if it wasn't vegan, I think just the act of eating is a very ritualistic thing. We all do it. Kayla: Right. Chris: But they're associating it with this group, with this organization. With them. Kayla: Right, right. Well, if you remember, we started this episode talking about other restaurants started by other cults. Chris: Right? Kayla: Like, it seems to. Groups continue to come back to that, and it's not just coincidental, like, there's. Chris: A reason for it. Right, exactly. Kayla: I mean, Catholics eat a little snack at mass, right? Chris: Yeah, it's. It's Jesus. The Jesus snack. Kayla: Snack. Chris: Yeah, it's a little. It's a little snack. It's a little cracker, but yeah. So. And I think that it also has other elements as well, like you said with the meditation and things like that. So high ritual. Population slash niche. Is it niche? This is weird. This is. I would say the population is high, but I'm not sure that it's mainstream.

1:43:17 Kayla: I don't know, man. I had never 140 restaurants, though, all across the country. Chris: Are we talking about loving, hut? Are we talking about Supreme Master Chinghai's? I guess it's all part of the same thing. It's the fastest growing vegan restaurant. Kayla: It's kind of like there's churches everywhere, but you don't necessarily know, like, who your bishop is or whatever. Chris: Boy, this one feels like it's right down the middle. Maybe it's kind of, like semi niche, right. It's, like niche, but there's still a lot. It's, I don't know, 50%. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Expected harm. This one. I'm gonna give, like, a 30% maybe. Kayla: Okay. Chris: Just because up until you told me some of the things that alleged.

1:44:00 Kayla: All alleged. Chris: Some of the alleged things about followers, you know, leaving their families and that sort of thing. Kayla: Drinking dirty bath water. Chris: Right. And the things that Mister Alan Ross said. Kayla: Rick Alan Ross. Chris: Mister Ross said those sound harmful, but they're all sort of alleged. And I don't know, they're also like, hey, peace, and we're gonna, you know, help flight victims. Kayla: And it seems like a benef, if it beneficial group in a lot of ways. Chris: In a lot of ways. Yeah. So that's why I think it does get a little bit there. Kayla: And especially because it, like, allows. It allows you to kind of retain other aspects of your life. Like, I know we've talked about other cults and groups do that where they're like, yeah, whatever faith of yours is fine, but, like, I don't think Teal's necessarily welcoming a bunch of people to, like, be christians necessarily, or, like, you know what I mean? Like, that's not necessarily a part of it. Whereas this is, like, all the faiths are good, and we're all just friends. We all believe the same thing.

1:45:05 Chris: I'd be curious. I kind of want to look that up. I feel like teal might say the same thing. Cause she just wants followers. Kayla: She is going to say it in a way. To me, that feels very different to this teal with her whole, like, I'm a no bullshitter kind of attitude. She can be kind of condescending and almost insulting. And I don't really get that from what I've learned about Supreme Master Qinghai. Also, we should note the fact that she calls herself Supreme Master Qinghai. I don't know if we've said that's culting. Chris: Well, when we talk about charismatic leader. Kayla: Which is the next criteria, I'm getting ahead of myself. Chris: So certainly she's, like, the most arrogant charismatic leader. I think we've run across more arrogant than teal, actually. I don't know. I think all of these cult. Yeah, you're right. All these charismatic leaders have a heavy dose of that, and Shanghai seems to be no exception.

1:46:01 Kayla: Yeah. Chris: You showed me pictures. Her appearance is very charismatic. She has people flying out to her, paying their own money to get there and be on her tv channel. Kayla: And if her stories are believed to be true, people have been trying to follow her for her entire life. Like, people are drawn to her. So the charisma is present. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: Also, I don't know where this fits in, but, like, I came across the phrase multiple times. The phrase multiple times. Gospel of veganism. And, like, how even though we're going to these restaurants and we're not, like, getting proselytized at just the act of kind of, like, spreading veganization throughout the world, it's almost kind of, like, missionary.

1:46:47 Chris: Oh, yeah. Kayla: Style. Chris: Yeah. Kayla: I just wanted to bring that up before we finished going through our criteria. Chris: Vegan Jesuits gospel of veganism. Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: Maybe we should proceed. Chris: Maybe we should add a criteria about proselytizing. Kayla: No, because we talked about that before. We talked about that before we came up with the criteria. Chris: Oh. Are we missing one? Kayla: No, we talked about. We talked about why it wouldn't be a good criteria. Oh, because like, best friends animal society, their cult was not proselytize. Chris: Right. I think we discussed it in the thing we. We decided on not to include. That is because some groups are very close. Feels more like it's a closed thing than an open thing.

1:47:28 Kayla: Right. Some of them are very much like, we'll take whatever, like a Mary Kay or something like that. But some of them are very like, we're our group. Fuck you. Chris: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so that's all six. So expected. Now, this is not the same order that I listed them in, so I'm just being a terrible host right now. But anyway, expected harm, we said, like, 30 ish percent population slash niche, we said is right down the middle, 50. Anti factuality a little bit. Percentage of lice consumed can kind of depend. I. But can be quite a bit depending on if you're just meditating or if you own a restaurant or if you're, you know, leaving your family for months at a time. Rituals high and charismatic leaders high.

1:48:14 Kayla: It's a cult. I'm sorry, I don't know. Chris: A few of those were pretty low. Kayla: Rick Allen Ross says it's a cult. Chris: Oh, is that. We have one criteria. Kayla: I'm just saying the guy criterion runs a cult. University or whatever. Listen, man says it's a cult. I'm saying it's a cult. It's a cult. Chris: This is our show. We get to say what we want on it. Kayla: I'm saying it's a cult. What are you saying? Chris: Based on my gut feeling. So you're just gonna throw away the criteria and it's just based on your gut? Kayla: I think that the criteria for me are sufficient to call it a cult. Chris: I mean, it hits on all six. It doesn't necessarily score highly on all six. Kayla: It's a cult for me. It's got the charismatic leader and spades. It's definitely more of a beneficial cult.

1:49:01 Chris: So I was talking about this, actually. I don't know if we've mentioned on the show yet, but I was talking about this with one of our listeners about how we should apply the criteria and up to this point, we've been sort of using sort of like a percentage, and if they all sort of hit a little bit, or if maybe five out of six of them hit, then it's a cult. But his. He had an interesting take. He feels like to really, to be able to fully call something a cult, it should solidly land all six. And if even one doesn't hit, then it's just weird. Kayla: I disagree. I think. I disagree with that. I think that will end up being more limiting than is good.

1:49:45 Chris: So you would like to call more things cults? Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. Kayla: Yeah. Chris: Well, last week, you were all like, I don't want to call it a cult. I want to call it a cult. Kayla: I'm so scared. Chris: But now you're not. This lady has, like, global network of vegan army. Kayla: I'm more scared of Mary Kay than I am of Qinghai. And also, their largest estimate is 2 million members. Mary Kay's got 3.55 million sellers. Chris: Right. And they could mobilize and march on us. Yeah, that's true. Kayla: If I had to pick between 2 million people wanting to be mad at me and three and a half million, I'm gonna pick two.

1:50:27 Chris: Yeah. So I gotta be honest, I don't. I'm not sure how I feel about whether the criteria should be ands ors. Whether they should be. You have to have all of them, or whether they should be. Preponderance of evidence. I really haven't decided on that yet. I. So what we've been doing on the show is preponderance of evidence. So let's keep doing it that way. And in that rubric, I guess it is indeed a cult, because it hits more of these than it doesn't. And even the ones that it doesn't, it hits a little bit. Kayla: Boom. Can we go eat there again, though? It's delicious. Chris: I don't know. It's. Kayla: God, what if we got somebody else to buy it for us?

1:51:08 Chris: No, we would have to dine and dash, as you say. Kayla: I don't want to do that to some. It's not hurting. Chris: They're very nice to us. Kayla: It's not hurting her. It's hurting the franchise owners. Chris: Oh, man. I think we can probably eat there again, ethically, honestly, we probably eat it. Kayla: Way less ethical places. Chris: That's true. I would probably. Today. Kayla: Yeah. Like, frankly, there's a lot of issues with the restaurant industry, so if we're gonna eat at restaurants at all, I guess it's fine. Chris: So, yeah. I would definitely eat there again, buy that measure. Kayla: Maybe we should find an organization that we can, like, donate to offset when we eat there. Chris: But like you said, then we would have to donate every time we put food in our mouth from a restaurant.

1:51:52 Kayla: Yeah, but, like, at least this, we have done, like, a podcast episode about, and I feel a lot worse about eating there than, like, McDonald's. Chris: Let's put it up to our listeners. Listeners, should we or should we not eat at loving hut again? What say you? Kayla: Just please tell us. Chris: Hit us up on Twitter alterjustweird. Hit us up on our Instagram or Facebook or just email us@culterjustweirdmail.com. Kayla: I need to know because I want to eat that jackfruit salad again. Chris: Yeah. And I want to have that. That fake beef, mongolian beef dish. Kayla: It was delicious. Chris: It was super delicious. And like, honestly, if I'm ever going to eat less meat the way I would like to help support climate change and that sort of thing.

1:52:32 Kayla: To help support. Chris: Yes, I would. Well, I said change. It could be changing for the better anyway. Then I don't know how I would be able to do that without going to loving hut because it was so good. It was very close to meat. Kayla: I've eaten in a lot of vegan restaurants. I love vegan restaurants. And this is definitely a top experience for me. Chris: Yeah, it was extremely close to real meat. Kayla: All right. Chris: So I think that's a great way to end the podcast, is by talking about close to real meat. Kayla: Close to real meat culture. Chris: Just weird. Close to real meat. Kayla: Well, then I'm Kayla. Chris: And I'm Chris.

1:53:12 Kayla: And this has been cult or just. Chris: Meat that's renting it.